Slower spellcasting?

[gadren]

So, it is kind of a fact of life that in 3.x, after a certain level primary spellcasters typically make noncasters and secondary casters irrelevant.

I was playing with an idea of a campaign where higher level spells are more complicated, and take extra time to cast.
I'm not sure the exact time increase and where it would happen, yet, but for example say that level 1 and 2 spells took the normal amount of time to cast, level 3 and 4 spells took 2 rounds to cast, 5 and 6 take 3 rounds, etc.

What do you guys think of this idea? What do you think would be the most fair casting time scaling?

[Vhaidara]

Repeat after me: Quick and Dirty Fixes Fix Nothing

There are weak spells at high levels. Meteor Swarm is AWFUL for a level 9, while Astral Projection loses no power from this (since you cast it out of combat to become unkillable)

For more perspective: Fireball. Level 5, you spend 2 rounds to do 5d6 of a commonly resisted energy type, and they get a save for half.

[Der_DWSage]

Kel pretty much nailed it. That fixes very few of the problematic spells, (Save or Dies are the big one nerfed by this) while also nerfing most of the non-problematic spells (Fireball, Meteor Swarm, etc.) and doing nothing against other problematic spells. (Binding, Astral Projection, Teleportation, Raise Dead)

This also makes it so that anyone casting spells is really, painfully bored during those rounds where they don't get to do anything, and become huge targets.

That said, I've actually used a variation on this with middling success. All 'problematic' spells (Namely, save-or-die effects) become spells with a 1-round casting time, so that people can attempt to stop them.

[gadren]

Repeat after me: Quick and Dirty Fixes Fix Nothing
It is really not necessary to be condescending about it.

There are weak spells at high levels. Meteor Swarm is AWFUL for a level 9, while Astral Projection loses no power from this (since you cast it out of combat to become unkillable)

For more perspective: Fireball. Level 5, you spend 2 rounds to do 5d6 of a commonly resisted energy type, and they get a save for half.

Well, I could also say, in comparison, that a level 5 fighter could get two attacks with a longsword for 1d8+str mod damage. If he misses he does no damage. The fireball, in comparison, does half damage even on a miss and strikes multiple targets in an area.

I'm not saying it's a perfect fix, but I think you could give spells longer casting times and still have them be a viable alternative.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem with fixes like this is that the more you reduce access to spells, the more you incentive using only the most powerful spells. Which would you rather spend three rounds casting- Meteor Swarm or Shapechange? Black Tentacles or Orb of Fire? You can still rock your long-term defenses, you can still roll with your minions... you just can't blast, or easily debuff, or anything like that.

Plus, I've played a caster in a system with a similar rule, and it's AWFUL. Think about how long a round of combat takes- now imagine you only get to act every two or three rounds.

A better option would be for the spell to go off at the START of your next turn, thus giving plenty of chances to disrupt it. It still penalizes the weakest builds the most, but at least you still get to actually play.

[gadren]

This also makes it so that anyone casting spells is really, painfully bored during those rounds where they don't get to do anything Hmm, that's true.

Perhaps another option is that higher level spells inflict "spell fatigue" with a duration equal to 1/2 or 1/3 their spell level. While spell fatigued, you can't cast spells (or can only cast low level spells), but may do other things without penalty.

[Der_DWSage]

It is really not necessary to be condescending about it.
It's less 'condescending' and more 'Fifty thousand people have suggested quick and dirty fixes, and literally every time, there's more flaw than fix to it.' Yours, for example, discourages people from casting any spell above 2nd level, regardless of how relevant it is to the situation-or it encourages them to focus only on long-term buffs, which are actually part of the problem.


Well, I could also say, in comparison, that a level 5 fighter could get two attacks with a longsword for 1d8+str mod damage. If he misses he does no damage. The fireball, in comparison, does half damage even on a miss and strikes multiple targets in an area.

I'm not saying it's a perfect fix, but I think you could give spells longer casting times and still have them be a viable alternative.

You really can't. Or if they were a viable alternative, it's because whatever the spell does is 'End the combat' or it's not a spell that cared about casting time.

Look, the problem with Vancian casting isn't that it allows a Wizard to do too much, too quickly. It's that Vancian Casting has a lot of spells that aren't overpowered in the slightest (I.E. Fireball) against spells that make others that are completely irrelevant. (I.E. Invisibility, Shapechange, Glibness...) Any fix that helps with the latter also makes the former completely useless-and really, the only way to 'fix' spellcasting is to go in, identify the fifty thousand spells that are an issue, and remove them.

[Troacctid]

You're essentially saying "Magic can no longer be used in combat," which renders an enormous swath of spells useless and reduces diversity among casters. Warmages are dead, the class might as well not exist under this rule. The trope of the wizard slinging fireballs--perhaps the single most iconic thing they do--is gone. Controlling the battlefield with AoE effects is no longer a thing, so you've killed the basic primary function that most casters are balanced around. Casters are now useless in combat, so as soon as you roll initiative, the party Wizard is going to have to sit back and twiddle his thumbs for half an hour or more. Contingencies, divinations, long-term minionmancy spells (e.g. Dominate Person, Animate Dead, Planar Binding), and all-day buffs are untouched and still top-tier.

So, congratulations, you've undermined the foundations of magic, destroyed entire classes and iconic character concepts, and just generally made casters less fun to play, all without actually preventing them from breaking the game.

[gadren]

You're essentially saying "Magic can no longer be used in combat," which renders an enormous swath of spells useless and reduces diversity among casters. Warmages are dead, the class might as well not exist under this rule. The trope of the wizard slinging fireballs--perhaps the single most iconic thing they do--is gone. Controlling the battlefield with AoE effects is no longer a thing, so you've killed the basic primary function that most casters are balanced around. Casters are now useless in combat, so as soon as you roll initiative, the party Wizard is going to have to sit back and twiddle his thumbs for half an hour or more. Contingencies, divinations, long-term minionmancy spells (e.g. Dominate Person, Animate Dead, Planar Binding), and all-day buffs are untouched and still top-tier.

So, congratulations, you've undermined the foundations of magic, destroyed entire classes and iconic character concepts, and just generally made casters less fun to play, all without actually preventing them from breaking the game.

I haven't done anything yet, just toying with an idea, and looking for constructive feedback. Some of you guys are so gd dramatic about this stuff.

You have given me a different idea, though. A game without wizards, druids, or clerics, but beguilers, healers, warlocks, etc are still kosher.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's an interesting idea. You'd need to also re-level all the spells so that blasting and healing were generally lower and save or die/suck/lose are higher level, but...it'd probably be for the best to do that regardless.

I've long toyed w/ the idea of (again, with a rebalancing of which spells are what level) a delay in combat for when you can use higher level spells. Not longer casting time, just simply that you can't even cast them until a certain amount of rounds went by. Of course, then you get into the issue of when a combat "begins" and casters trying to stall things out until they can cast the instant-win spell... *sigh*
I actually had a similar but much more extreme overhaul in mind way back, but literally EVERY person that replied in the thread hated it... :smallfrown:

[avr]

I haven't done anything yet, just toying with an idea, and looking for constructive feedback. Some of you guys are so gd dramatic about this stuff.

You have given me a different idea, though. A game without wizards, druids, or clerics, but beguilers, healers, warlocks, etc are still kosher.
This too has been done. A few things to watch for:

Make sure that there'll be someone with Stone to Flesh available not too many game sessions away before you introduce a cockatrice (basilisk, etc.) in the game. Remember that teleport won't be happening; people can't buy a quick trip to the great healer in the big city or on the mountaintop. Similarly for curses and anything else hard to remove.

Restoration in particular is something that you tend to want on the spot. Some sort of non/low magical way of reproducing it (healing herbs, whatever) is an element that it'd be nice to include in your game. People still mostly aren't going to want to play the Healer character class.

Related to that, there are still some fairly large degrees of difference in power between character classes/builds once you knock off the tier 1-2 classes. Make sure that your players are on the same page so you don't get a socially-focused rogue in a party with a beguiler, for example.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not quite true that longer casting times fix nothing. Reducing the number of spells a caster can use per round (or other changes to the spellcasting action economy) means that the Batman Wizard doesn't have quite as many tools in their utility belt. However, they're still left with enough tools that they dominate nearly every situation; it just makes their players grumpier because you took away some of their toys.

There are other ways of attacking the issue of spellcaster actions. One I'm fond of, because I intensely dislike the magical (though not officially so) capabilities of a spell component pouch, is to change its use from a free to a move action. There is simply no point (other than amusing the D&D authors) to requiring ground mica for Glitterdust if that component has no consequences either before or during spellcasting. Requiring a move action for the material component would limit spellcasters to a 5' step (move action for component, plus standard action to cast). Ditto for the pinch of tentacle for Evard's Black Tentacles.

To go along with this change, Eschew Materials needs to be a metamagic feat that works identically to Silent Spell and Still Spell.

Is this a "fix"? No, not at all. It's a way to add in-game consequences to something the game authors described as important to spellcasting mechanics, but didn't follow through on. And it gives spellcaster players some choices to make (spend a move action for the M component spell they want, or move and cast a different spell) which I think makes the game more interesting. It does make a difference in surprise rounds when the actions are limited, giving mundane archery a relative power boost. That's minor, but definitely worth doing.

There aren't any easy fixes to the problem of spellcaster dominance. There are some changes you can make to the game rules which may nudge spellcaster versatility slightly lower. Mostly, though, you would make those changes because they add richness to the game experience. Players rarely pay attention to spell components (maybe the occasional verbal component if they want to be quiet). Add them together from all sources, line by line, and we've probably got a hundred pages just for D&D 3.x material spell components. It's about time that we get some use of that game material, if for no other reason than it making an impact on the action economy.

[Mr.Moron]

Just try it out for a session with some players who are open to the idea. A couple hours of table time will do far more to give you a feel for how you and your player base will like this change than 25 pages of input from strangers on a mostly-CharOP forum.

It's not an idea I really like in D&D but I'm not one of your players. It should be fun to try out regardless of the results you get and the most you'll be out is $20 for bribing them with pizza and your choice of beverage.

[Vhaidara]

Is this a "fix"? No, not at all. It's a way to add in-game consequences to something the game authors described as important to spellcasting mechanics, but didn't follow through on.

I seem to recall someone citing a source where the writers said that most non-costly material components were actually inside jokes that were not meant to be taken seriously. I think it was back during the Jedipotter arguments about spell components.

Also, once again you generally hurt the weaker spells. Goodbye blasting spells, hello Planar Binding.

[OldTrees1]

What do you guys think of this idea? What do you think would be the most fair casting time scaling?

Ideal speed of gaining new spell levels is dictated by the speed you let non casters get neat stuff.
Ideal quality of new spell levels is dictated by the quality of the neat stuff you let non casters get.

[Solaris]

I think I'd be happier with the extended casting times if it didn't apply to evocation spells, and probably the damage-dealing conjuration spells. That keeps blaster as a viable play style.

I also think just banning T1/T2 classes would be a better fix than reverting to AD&D-style casting times.

[Xuldarinar]

I think an answer may lie in the Sha'ir class. To prepare a spell, they have to send off their familiar for (x) number of rounds/minutes/hours. When the familiar gets back, they may have the spell for them prepared so they can cast it in (y) number of hours.


It is certainly slower.

[Solaris]

That's the kind of answer that gets marked up with a lot of red pen and a note from the teacher requesting you speak with them after class.
Sha'ir is the kind of class that just screams "Fifteen-minute workday".

[ThinkMinty]

The mechanic sounds incredibly fun-killing, on top of removing the more balanced parts of magic. It's the out-of-combat magic you want to worry about.

I'm pretty sure Warlocks can still blast ad infinitum, so it's weird that Warmage can't do it reliably with limited slots, under the proposed rule change.

It's a cute idea fluffwise, but it gimps fights for casters more than starting at level one does, without doing much for the balance issues themselves. It just sounds...punitive, really.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think an answer may lie in the Sha'ir class. To prepare a spell, they have to send off their familiar for (x) number of rounds/minutes/hours. When the familiar gets back, they may have the spell for them prepared so they can cast it in (y) number of hours.


That's the kind of answer that gets marked up with a lot of red pen and a note from the teacher requesting you speak with them after class.
Sha'ir is the kind of class that just screams "Fifteen-minute workday".
Sha'ir has weird execution (though I think it's pretty functional if you work it right), but I think the general idea of a few fast combat spells/a bunch of slow utility spells isn't all that bad. You have a fairly predictable approach to encounters, which makes the GM's job easier, but you can still have a nice range of noncombat problem solvers. (You'd still have to do something about seriously overpowered/over-versatile spells like polymorph and planar binding/ally, but let's be honest-- you'd have to do that anyway). I did something similar when I tried to make a balanced generalist caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325646-The-Ritualist-A-tier-3-crafter-spellbook-user-maybe-%283-5-PEACH%29).

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's the kind of answer that gets marked up with a lot of red pen and a note from the teacher requesting you speak with them after class.
Sha'ir is the kind of class that just screams "Fifteen-minute workday".

My experience with sha'ir is the opposite. Because they have a fairly broad spell access and can tailor their selection of the fly to adapt to non-combat situations they tend to make more optimal use of their spell slots. Not to mention adding spells to their spells identified is often cheaper than adding a spell to a spellbook.

Edit: I forgot that sha'ir's have more spell slots that wizards at most levels. They are much better about the 15 minute adventuring day.

[Flickerdart]

Your fix is based on the (incorrect) idea that all spells of N level or higher are broken, and all spells under that level are fine. I think the existing replies in the thread have made it reasonably clear that this is not the case. True casting power comes from three sources: having a utility belt of tailor-made solutions, having spells that solve a vast variety of problems on their own, and being able to prepare for encounters long before they ever happen.

The utility belt issue is easy to fix - Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and to a lesser extend Sorcerers and Favored Souls are substantially weaker than Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, because they have a hard cap on their utility belt size in their Spells Known or curtailed spell list. When you can't prepare a copy of Bat shark repellent spray without taking on a huge opportunity cost for doing so, you are forced to solve most encounters with more general tools, like mundanes do. But unless you excise all the problem spells from the spell list, you just get T2 pwncannons.

The prep issue is slightly harder, because it's less obvious. Here I'm talking about spells like animate dead and planar binding that give the caster a permanent boost in power, but also simply hour long buffs. Having cast heart of water in the morning is like a free action freedom of movement when you need it. Superior resistance is like a free Cloak of Resistance. Greater magic weapon lets caster gishes get away with spending much less money on their sword. The issue can be solved by putting a stop to long duration buffs, but then the mundanes lose the benefit of those buffs, and suddenly their wizard buddy can't help them win combats properly. And even if you get rid of this with a blanket rule like "all non-Instantaneous spells last for 1 minute per level max", you still get T2 pwncannons.

The power issue is the hardest to deal with. There are loads of spells like glitterdust or black tentacles that are just really freakin' good for their level. Without going through these with a fine-toothed comb, any "fix" that hurts them also hurts Johnny Fireball.

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When contemplating a "quick and dirty" fix for casters, you should never think about the people who post on this forum - we're clever enough to find a way to be awesome no matter what. Think about the non-problem casters - the ones that cast fireball and wildshape into eagles because eagles are cool and prepare heals as a Good cleric. If your fix hurts them, and doesn't hurt us, you made the problem worse instead of fixing anything.