Brawler, Funslinger, Ninja, Unchained!Rogue or Swashbuckler?

[ThinkMinty]

Out of a curiosity to trying other playstyles, I've been thinking of getting into a game as a martial character.

Playing a gish would kind of defeat the purpose of branching out, but I could see myself playing a Synth Summoner in an all-caster party to be the melee guy, or a Magus in a campaign with a starting level that lets me skip to the part where I can refresh used spell slots.

Anyways, having looked over my martial options, I've narrowed it down to about five. Here are my rather childish explanations as to why I like these ones over the other choices.


Brawler. The flexible attacking is fun, and it looks like the class made for improvised weapons.
Funslinger. GUNS! Can someone explain the difference between early firearms and advanced firearms, mechanically? I'd be less inclined to play a funslinger without advanced firearms as an option.
Ninja. Ninjas are cool, plus having single-class Greater Invisibility and the capacity to properly exploit it is just awesome.
Unchained!Rogue. The Unchained Rogue sounds badass, but I haven't looked at them in any detail.
Swashbuckler. Pirates are cool, and so is quipping a sword into someone's eye socket.


So, thoughts on which ones of the five I'd enjoy and why?

[Novawurmson]

I really like the Unchained Rogue. Free weapon finesse+dex to damage, nice debuffs, good skills, good damage. I'm playing one VMC Magus for Prescient Attacks (i.e. sneak attack whenever I want), but the arcane pool is nice to have around regardless. Best with 3rd party support/Path of War, of course, but fine without it.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've played Ninjas before and really enjoyed them. With Pathfinder finally throwing DEX to Damage a bone, they've gotten a lot more damage potential. The ninja tricks and Ki pool are really useful, obviously scaling vanish and greater invisibility are sweet, but don't forget the mirror image, smoke bombs and exploding shuriken fun.

I haven't played Unchained Rogue yet, but again, DEX to damage and more generally useful skill tricks and rogue talents bump the U-rogue up to a pretty serviceable level.

The only thing I can comment on for Brawler is Martial Flexibility, as I used it on a fighter instead of an actual Brawler. Definitely useful and fun.

Gunslingers I would stay far away from. They're almost impossible to use properly because guns take so long to reload and almost all of their reloading options were recently nerfed. You'll never get a full attack off with early firearms, and can't reduce your Advanced Firearms down enough to full attack more than every other round. Add to that the expense of acquiring and maintaining guns and bullets, plus the misfire chance that all guns have and you should really stay as far away from them as possible.

[ThinkMinty]

Gunslingers I would stay far away from. They're almost impossible to use properly because guns take so long to reload and almost all of their reloading options were recently nerfed. You'll never get a full attack off with early firearms, and can't reduce your Advanced Firearms down enough to full attack more than every other round. Add to that the expense of acquiring and maintaining guns and bullets, plus the misfire chance that all guns have and you should really stay as far away from them as possible.

Does that include Bolt Ace?

[Vhaidara]

I recommend either Ninja or UnRogue. My PFS UnRogue grabbed the Charlatan Mage archetype, and I play him as a scholar (he just forgets to return the books sometimes). Tengu, which let me grab their Linguist racial trait, so he speaks about a dozen languages. Natural attacks play really nicely with Finesse Training and Sneak Attack.

As far as Unslinger, it really is lacking. Bolt Ace requires you to spend Grit to get the main advantage of guns, and Elric already covered the other issues with guns. The main difference between Advanced and Early Firearms is reloads. Advanced lets you get things like revolvers, which means you don't have to invest as much into free action reloading, since you have multiple shots.

[twas_Brillig]

Gunslingers I would stay far away from. They're almost impossible to use properly because guns take so long to reload and almost all of their reloading options were recently nerfed. You'll never get a full attack off with early firearms, and can't reduce your Advanced Firearms down enough to full attack more than every other round. Add to that the expense of acquiring and maintaining guns and bullets, plus the misfire chance that all guns have and you should really stay as far away from them as possible.

Aw, man. What happened? This is my first time hearing about it.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What? Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about for the Gunslinger. Rapid Reload+paper cartridges is free action reload on 1-handed firearms, 2-handed with the musket master archetype. Advanced firearms are easier, with just Rapid Reload needed.

[Elricaltovilla]

What? Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about for the Gunslinger. Rapid Reload+paper cartridges is free action reload on 1-handed firearms, 2-handed with the musket master archetype. Advanced firearms are easier, with just Rapid Reload needed.

They nerfed rapid reload and the gunslinger's deed reload so that they don't stack and you can't use it as a signature deed anymore.

[Wonton]

They nerfed rapid reload and the gunslinger's deed reload so that they don't stack and you can't use it as a signature deed anymore.

Weird. Is being able to do mediocre damage from 20-40 yards away vs touch AC really that much more powerful than what your standard melee charger can do? :smallconfused:

If I was a DM I would ignore that nerf and BUFF gunslingers. Whatever it takes to see fewer generic "Fighter/Barbarian with a greatsword" builds. Don't see how a 1d8 pistol remotely threatens 2d6+6.

[grarrrg]

If I was a DM I would ignore that nerf and BUFF gunslingers. Whatever it takes to see fewer generic "Fighter/Barbarian with a greatsword" builds. Don't see how a 1d8 pistol remotely threatens 2d6+6.

You're forgetting DEX-to-Damage, which makes your example closer to "1d8+6".


Gunslingers can still Rapid Reload + Cartridges for Free Reloads.

The major Gunslinger Errata-nerfs are:
*All Double-Barreled weapons are now "fire both barrels as a Standard Action", so no more 'double all Full attacks ever'.
*Pistolero's can't Signature Deed their Up Close and Deadly anymore, not that it much matters because:
*Signature Deed only works _once_ per round.

[Ozimandius]

I am building an Unchained Rogue/Monk that I am really looking forward to.

Half Elf
Trait ancestral weapon (elven branched spear)
unchained monk 2 (flowing monk archetype) for improved trip and unbalancing counter (to make anyone who provokes an aoo flat footed.
unchained rogue X (counterfeit mage) for 1.5x dex to damage, sneak synergy with unbalancing counter and all the sweet melee debuffing

MAD problems are super reduced so I can just massively pump dex which will add to my attacks, damage, defense, UMD, etc. and I can hopefully stay away from most people by tripping them and debuffing them.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yeah, I still have no idea what you are talking about with Rapid Reload being nerfed (if anything they fixed it so it works with advanced firearms, which all would go to a free action with the feat), gunslingers aren't insane anymore.

[Florian]

@Ninja: Had fun playing a kitsune ninja in Jade Regent. The build was very monk-ish with later multiclassing into monk. I really enjoyed it.

@Gunslinger: Functional, but boring.

@Swashbuckler: Tryed it, felt like playing a very boring fighter-variant.

(Nowadays, I tend to equip Slayers with a Longarm and Rapier and call it a day...)

[P.F.]

I had a lot of fun as a ninja. Biggest problem was that ending every turn invisibile made me harder to target but vulnerable to friendly-fire AoE's. Shiruken shenanigans were harder to pull off than I expected and I ended up retconning all those tricks to more utility things. The shadow clones is great, a few of the others are situationally useful. I got a lot of mileage out of wall-climber, but the speed boost trick only increases land speed, and it didn't increase my mobility as much as I wanted it too. Honestly the basic extra-attack-jutsu probably used up half of my daily ki pool. I focused on social skills, and got good results from the disguise-related tricks too.

I had played a "Dark Tower" Gunslinger in an earlier campaign, he used advanced firearms in a no-guns setting (and I upgraded his pistol to a magnum for 2d8 instead of 1d8). Still wasn't much better than an archer, shouting "*click!*" and spending the rest of my turn un-jamming my revolver became a running joke, and if there wasn't something to shoot at I rarely had anything else to contribute. To be a real Dark Tower gunslinger he should have had some sort of spell-casting or supernatural abilities, but I only played him for a few sessions.

Overall I felt like the Gunslinger needed to be either more versatile or more lethal at low-to-mid levels. I wouldn't mind playing a ranged-support combatant if I could do something useful out-of-combat other than make sarcastic comments; similarly, I wouldn't mind role-playing a stone-cold killer who speaks in monosyllables and mopes whenever he's out of combat if he could actually kill things outright when s*** hits the fan.

[Captain Morgan]

Brawlers can be pretty cool. I especially dig the Shield Champion variant. But they require you do to a lot of homework by combing through all the combat feats, and if your DM doesn't throw varied encounters at you it's not going to be as much fun as you'd hope. But if the above things are true, it's a good "thinking man's martial."

Swashbuckler has some issues, as I understand.

[MortalSword]

I think the UnRogue was the funnest class I've played in a while. I'm a fan of a debuffing melee. Make spells land easier and improve the overall effectiveness.

I chose to go the nonlethal/intimidate route. Enforcer + TWF + Sap adept ---> Sap Master with a sap. Or a weapon with the merciful property can work as well. The sap was easier for me cause it allowed me to get the cruel enchantment earlier (instead of the merciful first, then cruel). Finesse Training for +hit/damage is gravy. Debilitating injury to add an extra insult for a total -2 shaken/frightened -2 Sickened to saves/attacks stacked with -2 to their hit from debilitating and an additional -2 against the rogue is just....... Well good luck hitting them if they aren't running away. Toss in Weapon Focus + dazzling display + shatter defenses to become an independent sneak attacking brute dealing debuffs and death by d6....

Edit: When coming across nonlethal/fear/mind affecting/SA immune creatures. Start with tangleshot arrows to entangle and toss thunderstones and/or start unloading alchemical firecrackers to unload debuffs. Pick your debuff and run with it. Dirty tricks can be your friend too if you don't mind eating an AO for the attempt. Staggered and Blinded are my preferred DT's. Switch to a reach weapon if you want to avoid the AO

[Psyren]

I'm a fan of Brawler, Ninja and uRogue (and uMonk). Not so much the other two.