How good would graphene armor be?

[Platymus Pus]

If made to the thickness and weight of 2 pounds worth of clothing and worn?
I'm just curious because it'd outdo the armor used so much in dnd games, but I don't know by how much.
The best I could think of is this for Graphene Armor

Armor Bonus +90 Maximum dex bonus unlimited
Ability check penalty +0 arcane failure chance 0% speed unhindered
It'd be interesting to see this homebrewed accurately due to the weight and thickness, anyone smart enough to figure out just how much better this is than fullplate when it could simply just function as clothing?

[Aetol]

Graphene is a monomolecular film. While it's very resistant by weight, it's still as fragile (well, a bit less) as you'd expect something this thin to be. Stacking layers of graphen gives you... graphite, aka pencil lead. Not the most resistant material either.

Source : this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_applications_of_graphene) only lists one application for graphene's mechanical strength... and it's as a component in composite materials. Not in bulk.

Edit : actually pencil lead is a mixture of graphite powder and clay. Carbon fiber might be a more accurate example, and it's indeed better.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's not heavy or stiff enough to absorb much of an impact. Maybe it wouldn't have a hole in it, but you'd just have a broken bone with pristine armour on top.

[Xuldarinar]

How about this:

Graphine-coated Armor: This suit of armor has layers of graphine coating its surface. For the purpose of the character's Touch Armor class, the wearer includes their armor bonus from Graphine Armor. This does not function so long as the armor possesses the broken condition.

It would make bullets less effective, but a mace will hurt just as much.

[Aetol]

It's not heavy or stiff enough to absorb much of an impact. Maybe it wouldn't have a hole in it, but you'd just have a broken bone with pristine armour on top.

Chain mail has the same problem, and it's nothing some padding underneath can't fix. A material that can't be cut or pierced, even if it isn't rigid, would make very good armor.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Chain mail has the same problem, and it's nothing some padding underneath can't fix. A material that can't be cut or pierced, even if it isn't rigid, would make very good armor.

Graphene isn't as rigid as chain mail. It would be like only having the padding and aging some blows that would be itself useless.

[Aetol]

Graphene isn't as rigid as chain mail. It would be like only having the padding and aging some blows that would be itself useless.

Does chain mail have any rigidity ? I suppose it behaves similarly to chains, and a chain is basically the most flexible thing there is.

Multi-layered graphene, on the other hand, would have much more structural continuity along its surface, and would probably be more rigid. Still not enough to stop blunt force, but as I established its purpose would be to stop punctures and slashes.

[Flickerdart]

Does chain mail have any rigidity ? I suppose it behaves similarly to chains, and a chain is basically the most flexible thing there is.
Chainmail isn't structured like a chain. Each ring interlocks with multiple other rings. The result is a reasonably rigid article. Look up some pictures of chainmail weaves.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Multi-layered graphene, on the other hand, would have much more structural continuity along its surface, and would probably be more rigid. Still not enough to stop blunt force, but as I established its purpose would be to stop punctures and slashes.

You would need a lot of graphene to provide rigidity. Important: thin layers of graphene would not stop cutting or piercing blows. You would be increasing the width of the blade by two carbons atoms, which is still plenty thin to tear cells apart.

[MorgromTheOrc]

You also have to remember that when properly arranged graphene also makes up diamond, it being brittle due to weak connections on the edges. The ideal material for this would be carbon nanotubes, which are basically nano sized rolled up tubes of graphene and can be woven along with other materials to make carbon fibre. Which is slightly better than modern bullet resistant materials you usually see, can be made at large scales effectively, and can be made to be stiff or flexible wherever you want.

The last estimate I saw put carbon fibre at about 200 times the strength of steel and a fraction of the weight, but I've seen numbers all over the place for it.

As far as just graphene, if you got layers to bond effectively then I believe the estimate I saw put a layer as thick as saran wrap at the strength where it would take an elephant's weight focussed on the end of pencil to break through it.

Edit: Also an important note for armor is that since carbon fibre and graphene are both very good conductors on their edges(or ends for the fibre) but great insulators like diamond on their faces, if made properly they could provide great resistance if not complete immunity to electricity. Though no matter how they are constructed they are always great heat conductors and would likely cause heat vulnerability on armor, unless you coat or mix them with a heat insulative material.

Edit2: If you want D&D terms you would probably have to make it out carbon fibre and it would have the qualities you'd expect from a material with the slightly better than the best qualities of adamantine and mithral put together.

[Aetol]

Chainmail isn't structured like a chain. Each ring interlocks with multiple other rings. The result is a reasonably rigid article. Look up some pictures of chainmail weaves.

Point taken. However, mail armor really was ineffective against blunt force trauma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)#Effectiveness), and this is not reflected by its in-game properties, which suggests all mail-based armors incorporate padding (e.g. a gambeson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson)). There's no reason to treat graphene-based armor differently.


You would need a lot of graphene to provide rigidity. Important: thin layers of graphene would not stop cutting or piercing blows. You would be increasing the width of the blade by two carbons atoms, which is still plenty thin to tear cells apart.

Of course a single layer of graphene would be useless ; you'd have better luck by making your armor out of wet tissue paper. (Though if the mono-molecular graphene film is capable of not breaking and follow the weapon in the wound, it can be useful for pulling out arrows cleanly. IIRC silk was used for that purpose historically.)

A "graphene" armor would have to be made of, basically, crystalline graphite.

[awa]

the durability of the armor material only minimally affects its ac case in point adamant armor with a higher hardness does not increase ac.

I read up a little on the wikipedia page of this substance and one thing I noted is that when it talks about potential uses of the material it's never mentioned in the types of structures or items we use metal for,like cars, tanks or buildings. This leads me to believe it would make poor armor. Just being hard for its weight is far from the only consideration in armor.

[ZamielVanWeber]

As far as just graphene, if you got layers to bond effectively then I believe the estimate I saw put a layer as thick as saran wrap at the strength where it would take an elephant's weight focussed on the end of pencil to break through it.

You have to remember that you don't need to break the graphene to injure the person behind it. Given how flexible it is it would virtually nothing to negate the momentum of the blow and would just "dull" the edge of the blade. It is possible to cut though an object and leave one above it intact. Like cutting a sandwich but leaving the meat intact while both breads are cut.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A "graphene" armor would have to be made of, basically, crystalline graphite.

Graphite is crystalline and would make for terrible armor. Diamond is the (2nd?) hardest substance in the world and would make for terrible armor.

[MorgromTheOrc]

You have to remember that you don't need to break the graphene to injure the person behind it. Given how flexible it is it would virtually nothing to negate the momentum of the blow and would just "dull" the edge of the blade. It is possible to cut though an object and leave one above it intact. Like cutting a sandwich but leaving the meat intact while both breads are cut.

Yeah pure graphene is a lost cause, you'd have to go with one of its better forms like carbon nanotubes(and end up with carbon fibre).

[P.F.]

Graphene/carbon nanoscales/nanotubes/carbon fiber are used in a wide variety of applications. The high tensile strength makes it a good reinforcing fiber used in things like extruded fabric. It's high rigidity and resiliency make it a lightweight alternative to fiberglass for things like auto body panels. Although it is both strong and flexible, graphene is a fairly brittle material, subject to chipping, splintering, and shattering. Where a more malleable material will simply distort to absorb the impact of a blow, carbon-ring materials' molecular structures allows for no such rearrangement: once bent past its point of resiliency, it will break, often in spectacular fashion. Applications for pure graphene tend to focus on its property as a conductor of electricity. Graphene is of course flammable, and dissolves rapidly in acid.

The game rule effect of a realistic graphene armor would probably be a substantial reduction in weight, ACP, etc., and otherwise equivalent to steel. You can decide how much better than mithril you want this armor to be. For a fantasy graphene incorporating all the hypothetical properties of an ideal carbon armor, the stuff could be as light as paper, as rigid as plate mail, and so springy as to deflect even the mightiest blow. Take a page out of adamantine's book and stat it with DR 5/- and/or DR 15/piercing. Or treat it as alchemical mage armor. Or both. Why not, right?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The ideal material for this would be carbon nanotubes

This, this is what I was going to say. What ExLibrisMortis and others said though: the material would be able to take a hell of a beating, but while it will stop a mace it's not stiff enough to stop the force with which the mace impacts from getting through to the other side. Regular armor spreads the force around over the surface of an entire plate (or a similar area), it converts bludgeoning damage into a good shove. Too flexible materials don't do that.

It's slightly better for bullets. There's civilian looking bulletproof clothing on the market right now using all sorts of cool polymers and stuff. Most of those will still leave you with a very nasty bruise if you ever get shot. A very quick Google seems to tell me that some of these manufacturers claim their stuff can stop a .50 cal round (we're talking heavy machine gun ammo here, the sort of stuff that you're barely allowed to aim at enemy soldiers without getting trialed for war crimes). And it might, I'm willing to believe that claim from a materials standpoint. I'm also willing to believe the bullet could then still break your bones by impacting straight through both the armor and your muscles. All you've done is convert piercing damage into bludgeoning damage, and a .50 shell is heavy and fast enough to still pack plenty of that.

If you really want lightweight armor with the highest possible protection, you're better off looking at composite materials. Say you take plexiglass, a transparent polymer used wherever people want to be able to see through something without the thing shattering any time a gorilla pounds on it. Materials like that are pretty sturdy. They're stiff, but they bend just enough to be able to absorb an impact without shattering. Their weakness is that if they bend too far, they end up breaking anyway, just through a different method. So you put the carbon nanotube fibers inside the material, similar to the steel in reinforced concrete or the newspapers in the Mythbusters version of pykrete. The carbon nanotubes or whatever strong fiber you used will be stretched as the material around them bends. Since these fibers are really resistant to stretching they will absorb the force put on them, stopping the polymer from bending far enough to break. The flexible fibers are used in such a way that they both stiffen and strengthen the base polymer. If you find just the right combination of a strong plastic (the plexiglass was just an example) and a fiber (carbon nanotubes are a really strong candidate ones we learn to make the tubes long enough), that's the way I'd go if you want really sturdy but lightweight future armor, and you don't care that it's stiff plates rather than a nice civilian jacket. You can always wear a nice carbon nanotube weave underneath for emergency backup protection in case the material does break under a really strong attack, absorbing part of the impact but letting a part go through. Better broken than dead.

How strong would that be in terms of armor class? No idea. What I know is that if you took a plate of steel and a plate of polymer of the same thickness the steel plate is roughly 9 times heavier, a bit less if you use a lot of nanotubes I guess, but then it's still like 7-8 times heavier. For how much impact that can stop, I'd say it should be possible to make it at least as strong as steel. I'd like to make a really wild guess at it and go several times higher, because some of these developments in materials engineering are almost miraculous, but as long as most tanks are still made of steel I figure I should be a little more conservative than that to be safe. As strong as steel but a lot lighter is a goal that's on the horizon right now, any more is speculative.

[Solaris]

Graphite is crystalline and would make for terrible armor. Diamond is the (2nd?) hardest substance in the world and would make for terrible armor.

Steel is a crystal, too. It's just a lot more flexible than diamond.

[FocusWolf413]

Look at it this way: is the military using it now, or has it ever been used in a military setting? The answer is no, so don't do it.


Chain mail has the same problem, and it's nothing some padding underneath can't fix. A material that can't be cut or pierced, even if it isn't rigid, would make very good armor.

Chain mail is quite heavy. The mass of the armor provides quite a bit of protection.

[Sacrieur]

Steel is a crystal, too. It's just a lot more flexible than diamond.

Steel isn't a crystal, it's a metal alloy. They're too very different things with very different properties and it's the reason why diamond shatters and metal bends.

---

To clear up some rampant misinformation in this thread, remember that Graphene fibers haven't been fabricated, so we don't know the real world applications of it. But even basing it off of what we know now it's best thought of like a flexible diamond. It's got elasticity so if you stacked a whole bunch of sheets together, it would be like kind of super-hard rubber that can absorb incredible amounts of bludgeoning force.

[Deophaun]

There is a chance this is already in the game, in the DMG. An old, old term for diamond was "adamant," after all.

[Solaris]

Steel isn't a crystal, it's a metal alloy. They're too very different things with very different properties and it's the reason why diamond shatters and metal bends.

Being an alloy of iron and carbon (with others, depending on mix) doesn't preclude the formation of a crystalline lattice, which is what gives a crystal its structure. The myriad ways of annealing steel to get different effects work with that, to produce different-sized and differently-arranged crystals which suit the purpose.

[Sacrieur]

Being an alloy of iron and carbon (with others, depending on mix) doesn't preclude the formation of a crystalline lattice, which is what gives a crystal its structure. The myriad ways of annealing steel to get different effects work with that, to produce different-sized and differently-arranged crystals which suit the purpose.

Heh, the more you know.

[Platymus Pus]

Here is what I could find on it.

Multilayer graphene is an exceptional anisotropic material due to its layered structure composed of two-dimensional carbon lattices. Although the intrinsic mechanical properties of graphene have been investigated at quasi-static conditions, its behavior under extreme dynamic conditions has not yet been studied. We report the high–strain-rate behavior of multilayer graphene over a range of thicknesses from 10 to 100 nanometers by using miniaturized ballistic tests. Tensile stretching of the membrane into a cone shape is followed by initiation of radial cracks that approximately follow crystallographic directions and extend outward well beyond the impact area. The specific penetration energy for multilayer graphene is ~10 times more than literature values for macroscopic steel sheets at 600 meters per second. (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6213/1092) or in english.

"The researchers tested between 10 and 100 layers of graphene — between 10 nanometers and 100 nanometers thick, respectively. They focused a laser on a gold filament, vaporizing it into a projectile bullet that traveled at 3,000 meters per second — or more than twice the muzzle velocity of a high-powered rifle. As the tiny (micrometer-sized) bullets slammed into the graphene armor, it showed around twice the stopping power of Kevlar, or about 10 times the stopping power of steel plate."

As for the stated fragility given since it is a world of magic it can be self repairing with so little to actually repair, it's the man made structure that gives the graphene its strength after all, to say it's better than diamond while being lighter and more flexible wouldn't be inaccurate. Tubes as suggested would be light still and not that bulky so that direction could be taken.

[Aetol]

The difference between steel and diamond is the bonds between the atoms that make them up. Diamond uses the very strong covalent bonds, which make it very hard but brittle (since it can't absorb stress by deforming). Steel uses the more flexible metallic bonding, which makes it more pliant and resilient.

Multi-layered graphene would be an odd case. Atoms within each mono-molecular film are connected by covalent bonds – very strong, which makes the film relatively very resistant. But each individual film is very flexible, and they are only bonded by weaker intermolecular forces (Van der Waals forces, I guess). This means the final product is not as rigid as diamond, since the layers can slide over each other to accommodate the deformations of the material and absorb stress without breaking. It would be vulnerable to abrasion and peeling, though.


Disclaimer : I'm not an expert in material sciences. This post is an educated guess based on incomplete knowledge. I'm open to correction from anyone who know better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

the durability of the armor material only minimally affects its ac case in point adamant armor with a higher hardness does not increase ac.
This. Plain steel plate is already really hard to punch through- against a guy in full plate, you'd be going for the joints, often knocking out grappling him a bit to line up your shot. I don't imagine using a near-unbreakable armor would be much different. At most, maybe a bit of DR/Piercing or Bludgeoning.

[Platymus Pus]

Hmm wouldn't that be like saying if you had full hide armor it'd be the same just because it's like fullplate? Diamonds are actually very imperfect and fragile of course it wouldn't improve AC.
A graphene structure would end up working better even if it's of the same element. The energy distribution is better than steel even in a small layer.
There are also enhancements you can add to armor that make armor weigh more, but give AC. Yet something heavier doesn't give it AC over fullplate. The rules aren't all that consistent on AC I believe looking at the big picture.
Well regardless it'd be for a character that wants armor and has dex breaking +12 with no magical enhancements because that's the point actual armor becomes useless and expensive.

[Tvtyrant]

I would just treat it like mithral, honestly. Even truly indestructible materials (riverine) don't add a whole lot to a characters defense in D&D.

[P.F.]

Chain mail is quite heavy. The mass of the armor provides quite a bit of protection.

If nothing else, the inertia of a heavy object does help in absorbing the force of a sudden shock.


Hmm wouldn't that be like saying if you had full hide armor it'd be the same just because it's like fullplate? Diamonds are actually very imperfect and fragile of course it wouldn't improve AC.
A graphene structure would end up working better even if it's of the same element. The energy distribution is better than steel even in a small layer.
There are also enhancements you can add to armor that make armor weigh more, but give AC. Yet something heavier doesn't give it AC over fullplate. The rules aren't all that consistent on AC I believe looking at the big picture.
Well regardless it'd be for a character that wants armor and has dex breaking +12 with no magical enhancements because that's the point actual armor becomes useless and expensive.

You are right that despite being composed of the same element the two have different properties. But diamond is not any more imperfect or fragile than graphene; both can be naturally occurring or artificially created with varying impurities or additives. Diamond is stronger against static pressure but a poor shock absorber. Graphene is more resistant to tension stress, but weaker against abrasion. A diamond is essentially un-compressible, while carbon nanotubes/buckyballs can distort up to 50% or more without fracture.

And of course armor and armor class is so abstracted that trying to insert real-world armor/weapons/physics into D&D is something of a non-starter.

The real advantage of Graphitic Armor is that it would fill the role of Bracers of Armor -- weightless, no ACP, no max dex, no movement reduction -- but could carry all the enhancements of physical armor. I'm imagining a suit of +5 Heavy Fortification Shadowed Graphene Full Plate of Etherealness that counts as light (or no) armor so I can wear it on my rogue//mage//paladin//gish.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

the durability of the armor material only minimally affects its ac case in point adamant armor with a higher hardness does not increase ac.
That is a problem with this whole thought experiment. D&D does not really model hits through or damage to armor well. AC adds up to miss chance, a blow to your armor bounces off rather than having its damage reduced.


Being an alloy of iron and carbon (with others, depending on mix) doesn't preclude the formation of a crystalline lattice, which is what gives a crystal its structure. The myriad ways of annealing steel to get different effects work with that, to produce different-sized and differently-arranged crystals which suit the purpose.
They both have a crystal structure, yes. At this point I'd like to say something like "But steel as a metal has a structure consisting of uncharged atoms who get their strength from sharing a "sea" of electrons while diamond as a ceramic is made up of positive and negative ions who keep a strong grip on their neighbors, which is why most metals are weakest to plastic deformation, permanently changing the shape of an object, while diamonds are harder but brittle, they shatter under blows rather than absorbing them." I'd like to say that, but I'd be lying. Diamond acts a lot like a ceramic, but I don't really know why. My guess is that the basis is in how a carbon atom has four electrons available for binding and there are some good ways to stack atoms in such a way that each atom has four close neighbors, thus creating a crystal structure held together by atomic bonds, which have an even stronger deathgrip on their neighbors than ionic interactions, making for an even harder material which allows for even less movement/deformation, be it elastic or plastic, than a typical ceramic.

So, while both have a crystal structure, what's keeping the structure together is a different kind of interaction. The differences also explain for instance how metals can be alloyed (even to some extend with non-metals like carbon): they don't need to pack into quite as neat a crystalline structure as ceramics or diamond like crystals, if there's a bigger or smaller particle here and there it will still fall into place well enough, the sea of electrons will hold everything together. It's also the reason there are several forms of carbon that form under different pressures. They're different crystal lattices, formations, the atoms are pushed by the pressure into their rigid place. Steel doesn't take on a different formation when under pressure, of if it does it can plastically deform back into its old form ones you let the pressure off.

But I'm afraid I'm going waaay offtopic here.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, you have several ways to go about this. We talk about carbon fiber and it has been noted to have a wide range of strength values. This is because it is not really practical to talk about the fibers themselves as they cannot be arranged into any useful form. They are very tiny little strands that shatter when you try to bend them. You need to weave them into a malleable base material that holds them in place and dissipates force. This grants a variety of effects based on the material used as a composite base.

Carbon nano-structures of any sort can basically be used in one of three ways. You can use a soft, metal, or ceramic base. Here is the stats I would give to the various forms.

Soft composite armor.

Carbon Fiber Armor - light armor, cost 1000gp, Armor bonus +4, Max dex 6, ACP 0, ASF 10%, - basically this is souped up leather armor. It is carbon fibers embedded in a rubbery material to form an incredibly tough flexible armor shell.

Reinforced Carbon Fiber Armor - light armor, cost 1200gp, Armor bonus +5, Max dex 5, ACP -1, ASF 15%, - This is the studded leather version using steel reinforcement. Slightly better protection for slightly less flexibility.

Metal composite armor

Carbon reinforced metal is just good steel. This is basically masterwork metal armor.

Ceramic composite armor

Any heavy stone armor can be made using carbon ceramic composite. This doubles the hardness to 16 and is always masterwork. In addition, this material is almost as tough as Adamantine. This armor grants DR3/Adamantine. +5000gp.

EDIT
Oh, and on metal / crystal / ceramic debate, all three are different things. You have accurately described ceramic and metal, but diamond and other crystals are a different thing altogether. They form when an atom or group of atoms can form covalent bonds with itself in a endless pattern. This basically melds the whole crystal into one macro-molecule if formed perfectly. They are VERY strong unless you can strike them in a manner that slides the force along the bond. This is why the cuts are always perfectly flat planes set at specific angles to each other. Cutting is only really possible if you cut along the shear surface.

Metals can form little crystals within their structure, but they act funny due to the weak bond between the metal atoms. It sorta acts like a true crystal, but not really.

[mabriss lethe]

You might be better off looking at something like boron carbide instead of graphene. It actually *is* used for armor....on things like tanks and modern ballistic armor. It's the third hardest material currently known (behind cubic Boron Nitride and diamond.) It's something like 1/4 to 1/3 the weight of steel.

[Aetol]

How does a very hard material make good armor ? Doesn't "hard" usually mean "brittle" too ?

[ShurikVch]

Now I wonder - may Linear acetylenic carbon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_acetylenic_carbon) work as armor material?

[Platymus Pus]

You might be better off looking at something like boron carbide instead of graphene. It actually *is* used for armor....on things like tanks and modern ballistic armor. It's the third hardest material currently known (behind cubic Boron Nitride and diamond.) It's something like 1/4 to 1/3 the weight of steel.

It's also used for rings. graphene is like 1/10th the weight of steel.

How does a very hard material make good armor ? Doesn't "hard" usually mean "brittle" too ?

Not so much when you take it down to the atom, smaller you go the harder bonds are to break I believe.

[Fouredged Sword]

How does a very hard material make good armor ? Doesn't "hard" usually mean "brittle" too ?

There are several properties that you look for in material you wish to make armor out of. One of the major ones is what is called deformation energy. This is the energy required to force a material into a failure state. If you put too much energy into a small enough area you can punch through the armor.

Hardness increases the deformation energy. A harder material is harder to puncture or otherwise tear.

The problem is that there is a pair of characteristic that are commonly partially mutually exclusive with hardness that also increases the deformation energy. This property is called elasticity and plasticity.

Elasticity is the ability for a material to bend and return to it's previous shape. Plasticity is the ability of a material to bend and deform without breaking. A dry noodle is somewhat elastic. You can bend it slightly and it will spring back to straight. Silly putty is very plastic. You can shape is into almost any shape without breaking it and it stays in that shape.

Ideally, for the best armor, you want a material that is all three. A hard elastic material takes a ton of energy to deform and springs back to it's old shape, allowing it to absorb many blows. If it is also plastic, after you exceed it's elasticity it fails slowly, absorbing as much energy as it can while it breaks. Think of it this way. The hardness x the elasticity = DR. Fail to cross the threshold and you do nothing. Hardness x plasticity = hp. Each time it's used, it is a permanent loss.

The problem is that for a given material there is a relationship between the hardness and the elasticity. Generally the harder something is, the less elastic it is. Modern steel is a great medium of hard, elastic, and with a nice plastic range that allows it to absorb energy as it fails.

We get around the limitations with a single material by using composites and multi material designs. A hard material backed by a elastic material is tougher than the sum of it's parts. You also get weird stuff like directional materials that have different attributes based on how they are aligned to the force and other weirdness.

[Andreaz]

I hope you realize every decision you are taking here are completely arbitrary. Graphene can't stand its own weight in humanly tangible bulks.

[Aetol]

Hmm... wouldn't "humanly tangible bulks" of graphene be graphite ?

[JusticeZero]

Depends on how developed the crafting techniques are, which relates to a lot of other less dramatic technology. Steel armor, without all the refinements of joints, tempering, fasteners, etc etc etc. is pretty much junk compared to a really well crafted suit of armor made from a "weaker" material.