My murder mystery is too difficult

[Dr TPK]

I have the following side quest in my game:

[DM knowledge]
An evil cleric has had a long break from doing evil ever since he started a family, but now that the kids are grown up and his wife has died, he's back to doing evil. Every month, on an unholy day, he attacks a young woman who lives alone and is presumably virgin, kills her and does vile things to her body. He's very discrete so there's no evidence and no witnesses. He has a completely normal life and he is beyond any suspicious. His job in the royal office is to supervise the city's hygiene and pests, and he knows the local people extremely well.

He always operates in the same part of the city where only poor people live.

There are four conditions upon which chooses his victims:
- The victim must be a young woman.
- She must be presumably virgin. Therefore women that have been married are not valid for targets.
- She must be from the poor district, it's lawless, close and easy.
- She must live alone.
In case there are multiple options, he always chooses the youngest.
[/DM knowledge]

[PC knowledge]
There have been five murders so far. One every month, and it's obvious that the murders happen on the same night every month.

The PCs were hired to protect the next victim against a murder, but no one knows who's next. An NPC detective has been investigating the murder and he has collected a massive amount of data about the murders and victims. Unfortunately, the detective was killed on an unrelated accident, but his mother, a bit senile older lady, has all the data. She's a big murder mystery fan, but she mainly just concentrates on the raw data and doesn't make any conclusions. Her son was like that too.

Now the PCs have talked with the mother. They are allowed to make any question they want, but they can't read the awful scribbles the old woman has on her papers. The PCs have been wondering about rituals, detective son's friends and how many young women are there in the district. There are total of 200 people there, and about 30 of them are young(ish) women.
[/PC knowledge]

What they should be asking is that how many of those 30 women live alone. Only 6 live alone. Only 2 of them have never been married. Their ages are 16 and 30, and since the average age of the victims have been around 23, the younger of the women is going to be the next target.

My players find this murder mystery completely impossible and they have no clue who to choose from the 30 women, if any. In the next session the murder is going to take place. Any ideas?

[Jack_Simth]

My players find this murder mystery completely impossible and they have no clue who to choose from the 30 women, if any. In the next session the murder is going to take place. Any ideas?They haven't figured out the obvious solution? They know:
There's only the 30 potential girls. It happens on the same night every month.

Round 'em all up the night before, keep 'em for a few days, then let them go. This is the "Stop it for now, I want more time to figure it out" option. It will result in one of three basic outcomes:
1) Murder won't happen that month (all potentials protected).
2) Murderer will go after a 'hardened' target (someone NOT from the poor district, who will be missed) in order to meet the obligation.
3) Murderer will get into wherever the PCs are keeping all the girls, where murderer can be confronted by the PCs (and, presumably, slain).

1) is a partial victory for the party (this month only).
2) is a loss this month, however, will give you AMPLE reason to drop a lot more in the way of clues for the next go round (there's guards who may have wounded the culprit, witnesses who saw things, she's missed by powerful people, et cetera).
3) is a probable win for the party.

Edit:
The other solution, of course, is to simply ask the note keeper to simply start reading ALL the notes, and the PC's make a table of some kind to track the data. I imagine that you don't want this happening for OOC reasons. My suggestion would be to make some form of note setup prior to the next session, and have them roll Decipher Script or some such so that you can give them the notes.

[Dr TPK]

They haven't figured out the obvious solution? They know:
There's only the 30 potential girls. It happens on the same night every month.

Round 'em all up the night before, keep 'em for a few days, then let them go. This is the "Stop it for now, I want more time to figure it out" option. It will result in one of three basic outcomes:
1) Murder won't happen that month.
2) Murderer will go after a 'hardened' target (someone NOT from the poor district, who will be missed) in order to meet the obligation.
3) Murderer will get into wherever the PCs are keeping all the girls, where murderer can be confronted by the PCs (and, presumably, slain).


1) is a partial victory for the party (this month only).
2) is a loss this month, however, will give you AMPLE reason to drop a lot more in the way of clues for the next go round (there's guards who may have wounded the culprit, witnesses who saw things, she's missed by powerful people, et cetera).
3) is a probable win for the party.

They already tried this but they didn't manage to convince the community to go with this. The PCs are just some outsiders who are not to be trusted. The people are not ready to have 30 of the girls in any specific place just because some adventurers say so. Maybe with a good diplomacy check, but they blew that one already.

The PCs have actually very little influence on the people. The PCs have about the same authority over the poor district that you have over yours IRL.

[Flickerdart]

Just have an NPC make an off-handed comment to another NPC, something like "Poordistrict is a dangerous place for a single woman these days. Let's go to Nicearea and try to find some hunks."

[Dr TPK]

Just have an NPC make an off-handed comment to another NPC, something like "Poordistrict is a dangerous place for a single woman these days. Let's go to Nicearea and try to find some hunks."

Thank you, but I think this solution lacks elegance.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The PCs have actually very little influence on the people. The PCs have about the same authority over the poor district that you have over yours IRL.

The people they were hired by not following their advice seems odd. What is the party make up? Divination magic would reveal a lot and a Knowledge (Religion) check could reveal what God he is performing this ritual.

[Troacctid]

The reason your players are missing it is because they're stuck playing "Guess what the DM is thinking." You need to give them a lead that they can act on.

[Dr TPK]

The people they were hired by not following their advice seems odd. What is the party make up? Divination magic would reveal a lot and a Knowledge (Religion) check could reveal what God he is performing this ritual.

The people who have given this mission to PCs have little to do with the district and they are too busy to come and tell the people that they should do as the PCs say. The PCs have no authority. The real authority is too busy with other things and have just briefly mentioned that the murders should be stopped. No consideration has been given what the PCs require in order to stop the murders. The basic idea is that "This is the deal, just do it, I don't want to hear from you before the problem is over, bye!"

The PCs are all humans.
Battle Sorcerer 9/Fighter 1
Warmage 7
Barbarian 7

[Darth Ultron]

Your mystery is too hard. It only seems easy as you already know the answer. It is a common problem with mysteries.

Ask yourself why would a person ask if the women lived alone? Can you think of a good reason to ask that? Remember that there are a ton of other facts about the women, so there is no reason for ''lives alone'' to stick out. And ''lives alone'' is not exactly something you'd find with a bunch of data like height and weight.

The bit the players are missing is they don't know about the cleric. They are stuck with the wide open field of ''it could be anyone''. And they need to narrow it down, but they can't do that just by going on what the victims are like......they need to know the 'why'.

The PC's were on the right track when they asked about 'rituals', but what was your answer to that? Sure you know it is just one crazy cleric who is just doing it for fun(right?). So did you answer ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? If so, now they are not thinking about 'religion' or 'cults' in general. After all the DM said it was not that....right?

But is it not a ritual? Why does the cleric kill on that unholoy day? Just a coincidence? Is there no evil ''death to female virgins'' ritual? If not, why not? That would be a good clue. Even if it was a false clue: there is the vile ritual of The Evil Dad. Once a minion of evil mates and has kids, they must kill a young one each month for a year to 'balance the scales'. Now this is NOT what the crazy cleric is doing....it is a false clue....but it is one that is close. Close enough that the PC's might get the ''we should find the youngest girl'' idea.

With mysteries in never hurts to give a push.

[Jack_Simth]

Looks like the OP missed my edit, so adding it here:
The other solution, of course, is to simply ask the note keeper to simply start reading ALL the notes, and the PC's make a table of some kind to track the data. I imagine that you don't want this happening for OOC reasons. It is, however, one of the next logical steps in a vacuum.

[Dr TPK]

The reason your players are missing it is because they're stuck playing "Guess what the DM is thinking." You need to give them a lead that they can act on.

I can't figure out what that lead might be. Really, it's hard.

[Jack_Simth]

I can't figure out what that lead might be. Really, it's hard.
Define your ritual murder better, and it'll be easier. Apparently, all you've got about it is that the guy leaves no trace, picks a poor girl who's expected to be a virgin, likes 'em young, and hits up the same day every month. Underlined portion is a touchy one, because it's actually quite rare. Apparently, fingerprinting has been around for thousands of years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint#Antiquity_and_the_medieval_period):

Although ancient peoples probably did not realize that fingerprints could uniquely identify individuals,[55] references from the age of the Babylonian king Hammurabi (reigned 1792-1750 BCE) indicate that law officials would take the fingerprints of people who had been arrested.[56] During China's Qin Dynasty, records have shown that officials took hand prints, foot prints as well as finger prints as evidence from a crime scene.[57] In China, around 300 CE, handprints were used as evidence in a trial for theft. By 650, the Chinese historian Kia Kung-Yen remarked that fingerprints could be used as a means of authentication.[58] In his Jami al-Tawarikh (Universal History), the Persian physician Rashid-al-Din Hamadani (also known as "Rashideddin", 1247–1318) refers to the Chinese practice of identifying people via their fingerprints, commenting: "Experience shows that no two individuals have fingers exactly alike."[59] In Persia at this time, government documents may have been authenticated with thumbprints.[citation needed] (Done via copy/paste, so formatting issues)

[Troacctid]

I can't figure out what that lead might be. Really, it's hard.

"Peeping" Tom, the local pervert, happened to be scrying on the victim when she was murdered. He saw the whole thing. Unfortunately, the murderer was in disguise, but there was a holy symbol around his neck—a symbol linked to an evil god.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Physical trace evidence can be removed fairly easily visa Prestigitation. This would itself be evidence itself if they had knowledge skills. As set up this mystery is unsolvable with dumb luck.

[Jack_Simth]

"Peeping" Tom, the local pervert, happened to be scrying on the victim when she was murdered. He saw the whole thing. Unfortunately, the murderer was in disguise, but there was a holy symbol around his neck—a symbol linked to an evil god.

... they'd even logically be going after many of the same targets...

[Dr TPK]

Your mystery is too hard. It only seems easy as you already know the answer. It is a common problem with mysteries.

Ask yourself why would a person ask if the women lived alone? Can you think of a good reason to ask that? Remember that there are a ton of other facts about the women, so there is no reason for ''lives alone'' to stick out. And ''lives alone'' is not exactly something you'd find with a bunch of data like height and weight.

The bit the players are missing is they don't know about the cleric. They are stuck with the wide open field of ''it could be anyone''. And they need to narrow it down, but they can't do that just by going on what the victims are like......they need to know the 'why'.

The PC's were on the right track when they asked about 'rituals', but what was your answer to that? Sure you know it is just one crazy cleric who is just doing it for fun(right?). So did you answer ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? If so, now they are not thinking about 'religion' or 'cults' in general. After all the DM said it was not that....right?

But is it not a ritual? Why does the cleric kill on that unholoy day? Just a coincidence? Is there no evil ''death to female virgins'' ritual? If not, why not? That would be a good clue. Even if it was a false clue: there is the vile ritual of The Evil Dad. Once a minion of evil mates and has kids, they must kill a young one each month for a year to 'balance the scales'. Now this is NOT what the crazy cleric is doing....it is a false clue....but it is one that is close. Close enough that the PC's might get the ''we should find the youngest girl'' idea.

With mysteries in never hurts to give a push.

I have to disagree. One of the first things to ask is where the murders took place and if there were any witnesses. The answer is "at home" and "none" at every case. That SHOULD make anyone think, seriously. At home, no witnesses. It DOES stick out. Badly, strongly, overwhelmingly.

My answer was ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? because the cleric is making his own ritual just to please his goddess. It's not any known ritual. The man is smart and doesn't want to give any clues. It's enough that his goddess receives human sacrifices. It doesn't have to follow any established pattern. He does this on the day that an Unholy Saint was martyred. The PCs could know this, if they had any ranks in Knowledge (religion), but they don't have any.

[Kira_the_5th]

Generally, when you're working out a mystery, you want to have at least three basic things to explain the mystery; motive, means, and opportunity. Right now, I'm only seeing one of those three, even from the DM's perspective.

Right now, we have the opportunity; the murderer is killing his victims every month on a predictable day. This gives us a way to link the murderer to the crimes, considering that there would logically have to be a clear pattern of the culprit being missing, while he was out committing the murders.

What we are lacking here is any sort of motive or means. Why is a city hygiene official a serial killer? How is he still an evil cleric after taking a few decades off? There aren't terribly many Good aligned gods that would be cool with one of their chosen mortal agents just settling down and retiring to private life for years, let alone any Evil aligned ones. Before anything else, you need to come up with a concrete reason for why these murders are occurring.

After that, you need means. Right now, all we now is that the murderer "leaves no trace or witnesses." How? If he's not using magic, then he's going to leave some trace somewhere. If he is using magic, then like Zamiel said, the complete lack of physical evidence is a clue itself that there's magic afoot. Other than that, what are the PCs or investigators seeing when they examine the bodies? If a Heal check can treat poison with a DC check equal to the poison's DC, it's not unreasonably that identifying the poison would be easier than that. Likewise, even the most primitive autopsy would be able to answer how the victim was killed (bled out, blunt force trauma, negative energy, etc.) Perhaps the murderer used his deity's favored weapon in each of the murders, which would lead to similar wounds inflicted on each victim.

Once you have those things worked out, there is one last, phenomenally important step that you need to remember. You are the DM here, which means that you are in charge of providing the players clues and ways to move forward. Theoretically, this cleric could have committed the perfect murder, left absolutely no clues, and remained entirely above suspicion this entire time. But, that doesn't make for an engaging story, and an even less engaging game. Drop some clues, let your players make progress in uncovering the mystery. Right now, everything is so up in the air that there's no place to even start on solving it. Also, why are people not paying attention to the PCs here? They're officially recognized deputies, each of whom is high level and famous enough to have access to Leadership. Not following them at this point seems like nothing more than a contrivance to block off the one route the players actually had to getting anywhere.

So, to sum up; you need to leave some clues, because, as presented, this mystery is functionally "X+Y+Z=A, solve for Z". Provide some of those variables, so that the PCs at least have a starting point. Even Sherlock Holmes couldn't make bricks without clay, after all.

Edit: Looking at your latest post, I really need to emphasize my last two paragraphs. Merely saying "he doesn't want to leave any evidence because he's smart" is meaningless. Without abilities beyond normal magic, there simply isn't a way for him to completely remove all variables from the equation to leave no evidence (remember, planting evidence is part of your job as a DM). Additionally, "the ritual is that there is no ritual; sacrifice isn't enough" is never going to fly as an explanation to your group. You've basically constructed a scenario that is impossible to solve and getting huffy when your players can't solve it. Also, if the date of the ritual is on the date of a death of a martyr, then it makes absolutely no sense for the murders to be once a month. After all, it's not like the martyr kept coming back, and had to be killed repeatedly every month, right? Even if it were, an event that major would probably be common knowledge. Knowledge that you would know even without having to make a knowledge check, or at the very least be a low roll in several different fields, including Local and History. Also, leaving the only clue in a Knowledge check that no one in the party has is a terrible mark against you as a DM.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Round 'em all up the night before


This was my solution too. Since that failed, maybe they could try to at least convince the women not to be alone that night, but maybe go over to a friend, a friendly couple, their parents etc if they don't live with anyone or with someone who will be away that night. "She must live alone" might be a tough perquisite to figure out, but "she must be alone at some point during that night" is not. Sure, it might end with two people slain this month and the PC's getting the blame, or it might result in the alarm being raised by a person who can describe the murderer. (I'm pretty sure "and stay awake that night" is too much too ask, but this at least improves the odds.)

The hardest part to figure out is the bit about the youngest person always dying, especially since there is still a 16 year old out and about while the average age of the other victims was 23. This guy is breaking the rules you want the PC's to be able to deduce.

If the PC's do not do that or anything else that might work, consider giving them a lucky break. If they decide to go out patrolling the entire night, maybe let them disturb the ritual completely at the end, making the cleric run away while leaving behind the last few scraps of evidence he hadn't done away with yet. Something like that. Try to break open an entirely different part of the puzzle. You've only been playing "guess the rules he has for picking his victims", but you could also give a hint that will get them looking for members of the clergy, like some prayer-thing found at the scene. You could have them looking at why the date is important. Did the detective have anything on the day being an unholy day? Could the mother flap something about that out? Could they deduce which evil gods are connected to this day? Or, could they start from why the murders are happening now perhaps? Maybe one of the previous victims, after careful reexamination, turns out to have a grey hair on her dress, maybe the detective had notes on how this work was so clean it must be someone with decades of experience (which would get them looking at new arrivals in the city, but at least they'd have something to do). Try some angles. If you leave three clues, the PC's will probably find at least one.

[Honest Tiefling]

So what is cleric man doing this entire time? It isn't just his life on the line, even his children might be killed or hurt if he gets found out. Surely, he's found out that people are investigating? If not the adventurers, then others. Perhaps in dealing with a more train investigator, the cleric makes a slip up, giving the party another clue? Or, in his attempts to keep appeasing his dark goddess, he frames another person? In the midst of investigating that, they find some hint or clue that makes it clear they were being framed, and possibly put them back on the right track. An oldie but a goody is that he makes a slip up when trying to deal with the party that might be asking far too many questions. A group with a botched diplomacy check probably got talked about, even a little.

Alternatively, depending on the size of the district, they could just do a stake out if they know another murder is going to happen. Through they messed up with the gather all the women, surely other groups (Younger members of the deceased's family, good aligned churches, heck, even pay mercenaries) to keep an eye out to make it that much harder for the murderer.

[2xMachina]

Maybe have the mother say something about the trend?

Something like they're all unmarried, etc.

Or heck, give them the full data for them to find the trend. Let the mother explain her scribbles.
Victim is X, Y, Z. Let them gather info on X, Y, Z from somewhere.

You can drop hints this way.

[Roog]

This had been going on for almost six months! Is the world static? Think about the effects on the behavior of the locals. Do they just go on with life like nothing is happening?

They will be aware of the deaths. And in a population that small, at least part of the pattern should be obvious to them.
Who would want to be alone on that night (if the murders happen at night) of the month? People will get together, and protect themselves as best they can.

[TheifofZ]

This had been going on for almost six months! Is the world static? Think about the effects on the behavior of the locals. Do they just go on with life like nothing is happening?

They will be aware of the deaths. And in a population that small, at least part of the pattern should be obvious to them.
Who would want to be alone on that night (if the murders happen at night) of the month? People will get together, and protect themselves as best they can.

5 young, single women dying in the poor district, one by one.
That actually doesn't draw very much attention, assuming standard high-fantasy low-advancement settings.
Honestly, it still doesn't draw very much attention in certain areas of the real world. Sure, in the middle of New York it might, but in the slums of, say, Detroit, or quite a large amount of India or Africa? Nope.

[Honest Tiefling]

5 young, single women dying in the poor district, one by one.
That actually doesn't draw very much attention, assuming standard high-fantasy low-advancement settings.

I think it would draw more attention if the entire district only has 200 people in it. Well, unless the city has 100 districts. Which I think would be unlikely, because then such a smart villain would spread out the murder love across them instead of focusing on just one.

[Roog]

5 young, single women dying in the poor district, one by one.
That actually doesn't draw very much attention, assuming standard high-fantasy low-advancement settings.
Honestly, it still doesn't draw very much attention in certain areas of the real world. Sure, in the middle of New York it might, but in the slums of, say, Detroit, or quite a large amount of India or Africa? Nope.

All your examples are for large communities. This is within a local district of only 200 people. It doesn't matter that this won't draw very much attention in the city as a whole - it will draw a lot of attention within the district.

There are only 30 youngish women in the community. In a community that size, those youngish women are likely to know each other. It's been three months since the third death within that small group.

[Sredni Vashtar]

It's too difficult because it's too perfect. This guy sounds untouchable and unstoppable. He makes zero mistakes. It's unrealistic. Like everyone else is saying, feed the PC's a line to get them moving. After they do whatever, have their activities prompt the cleric into getting sloppy. Yeah, maybe one more girl gets horribly murdered, but now there's a bit of evidence.

Serial killers usually make glaring errors and those who get away with it for a while only do so due to luck.

[Scorponok]

I think the PCs are missing a HUGE and dramatic role-play opportunity as well as building upon a solid story that may potentially lead into much more interesting side stories and other shenanigans.

Throw a ball! Invite all the single ladies on that list, and sell invitations to the single men of the town.

This solution lets all the girls be in one place during the night, lets all the PCs keep an eye on the girls, and it would be irresistible bait for the killer. He gets to check out all his potential victims in one place, and if the PCs can keep track of which girl is murdered next as well as the gentleman who showed the most interest towards them at that party, they'll have some solid leads. Plus, hobnobbing with all the other well to do folk in town might build trust or at least give them an ally if they need the favor of someone else.

If the PCs don't know, just let the girls keep being murdered. There is a chance the PCs split up and pick 4 out of the 30 girls to follow and by sheer dumb luck, pick the right one. That should lead to more clues. This sounds like it might take a few more murdered girls to solve.

[Templarkommando]

This particular concept reminds me of the Jack the Ripper murders from the East End of London in 1888. This might give you some fodder, as there is a ridiculous amount of material up to and including original source material from various news papers that covered the crimes. Despite the presence of this material, Jack was never caught, and his streak of murders casts a certain macabre mystique on the whole situation. One of the big reasons that Jack wasn't caught is that modern forensic techniques weren't in wide use during the investigation. Fingerprinting wasn't used by Scotland Yard, and it didn't become prevalent until later. In addition, there was a lot of tabloid style journalism looking into the murders that were willing to fabricate information about the crimes simply to sell papers. The first paper of all time to sell more than a million copies of the same issue had a Jack the Ripper headline. Here are my thoughts about your side quest:

1.)Presumably, you want your serial killer caught, but one possibility is that you could simply leave the endeavor open ended. If the party doesn't want to put forward the thought to solve your crime, then maybe your cleric stays on his murder spree for a while and then fades into obscurity after moving on to some other place.

2.)There are a number of letters that are affiliated with serial killers, and in the case of Jack the Ripper either all or mostly all of them are fraudulent. Some were probably sent by newspapermen looking to make a quick buck off of the story, others from pranksters and hoax artists. One letter in particular arrived with a parcel that contained what is believed to be one of the victim's organs, and was signed "catch me when you can." One way that you can give this quest life is to introduce some of the personality of your cleric before the party ever meets him. This letter may contain hints, or it may just be a taunting letter.

3.)An artifact (a bloody piece of apron) associated with the murders was recovered near graffiti that included a racial epithet. The police covered this up for fear that its association with the murder would lead to race riots. To this day, no one is really sure what was written there verbatim. It's unclear what the killer intended by this, or even if he wrote the graffiti. You could give your party the option of covering up something like this as a sort of dilemma, or you could have them deal with someone else's having covered up what might have been a vital clue.

4.)Supposedly there are something like 200 suspects for the ripper murders. Considering that there were only 5 canonical murders, clearly not everyone was guilty. Maybe, your cleric could try to pin his murders on someone else, or maybe there are just some other really creepy dudes in the district that might have done it. The suspects include crazy people of many stripes, a jealous boyfriend, the Queen's grandson, a number of woman-haters, and a lot of others.

5.)There are a number of wild theories surrounding Jack the Ripper, including the involvement of the royal family in addition to at least one secret society. While in reality these theories are probably false, they make for smashing adventure reading. These theories could show up in a newspaper that you give to the party as a handout, in a police report, or your killer might scrawl a symbol associated with a secret society on the wall to throw off investigators.

6.)As far as making this easier, you might look at modern forensic shows. Gil Grissom can tell the time of death on a body by looking at the bugs on it - there's a knowledge nature check. Knowledge(Local) can help you eliminate suspects, alibis, etc. A search check might turn up a murder weapon, or a vital clue - a personal monogrammed belonging of the killer perhaps.

7.)In addition to that, there are a number of spells that might make this easier. Speak With Dead immediately pops to mind. This doesn't need to be too easy, but maybe the victim that you use it on has something that was left undone in life, and it's a quest that your party has to do before she will give them a good description of the killer. Maybe he smelled like something unique, or had a scar or some other feature that sets him apart from everyone else. Zone of Truth also fits in this description. Set up the zone of truth, and get people to walk into it and ask them the question, BAM! They got em.

8.) Even the unsolved ripper murders had some witnesses. Descriptions include the type of clothing worn, hair color, height, hats worn, weight, age, use of a pipe, whether they were carrying a parcel, and possibly nation of origin. These descriptions vary a little bit depending on the witnesses, which would seem to indicate that not everyone saw him, but still it's an interesting thing to consider. Some of the witnesses are even suspects. One was found with the first victim just a few moments after time of death, another stood outside of the fifth victim's house for around an hour while the murder was probably going on.

[jok]

5 young, single women dying in the poor district, one by one.
That actually doesn't draw very much attention, assuming standard high-fantasy low-advancement settings.
Honestly, it still doesn't draw very much attention in certain areas of the real world. Sure, in the middle of New York it might, but in the slums of, say, Detroit, or quite a large amount of India or Africa? Nope.

The thing is, that poor people do not live alone. Atleast not in any
dark age or "historical" setting. Young maybe even virgin unmarried women just did not live alone.
I find it hard to profile a serial killer in a world that doesn't even makes sense.

[Templarkommando]

The thing is, that poor people do not live alone. Atleast not in any
dark age or "historical" setting. Young maybe even virgin unmarried women just did not live alone.
I find it hard to profile a serial killer in a world that doesn't even make much sense conventional sense.

I think that in general you are probably correct. If we're talking about a sample of 200 people(My personaly thoughts are that 200 people in a district is probably a little low, but it's the OP's game), not many of the young single women probably live alone, however, even in the case of the Jack the Ripper murders, there is at least one notable exception. Mary Jane Kelly was murdered in her own room that she rented in Miller's Court. However, 1888 London is a far cry from being medieval Europe.

The at-risk group for serial killers in 1888 was alcoholics and prostitutes. This because alcoholism was a habit that tended to make people more desperate - not less, and prostitutes would lead the murderer to a secluded place so they could run their trade, but the murderer had other ideas.

In a feudal society, you're talking about women that are part of the peasantry. Usually, these women would be married off or at least betrothed at very early ages... ages that would be illegal today. If for some reason this did not work out, then they would live with their parents for a time, and then possibly be sent off to a convent. What we're looking for is women that have fallen through the cracks. They were widowed or divorced after betrothal, their parents died, they ran away because they didn't want to go to a convent. They then take up whatever work they can get to survive. Being a seamstress, a brewer possibly, or a prostitute.

[Aegis013]

So, I skipped all of the DM knowledge portion of the opening post, and only read the PC knowledge to see if I could puzzle this out myself, and picked up some of the DM knowledge from posts later in the thread, but frankly, the PCs simply have next to nothing to work with. My impression of the detective's senile mother is that she's effectively an excel spreadsheet with poor organization where the PCs are staring at a bunch of information not presented in any way which shows any correlation for them to consider. Right now your PCs are in a very meta-investigation stage where they're not trying to investigate the murders, they're trying to figure out how to even investigate the murders at all, all of the typical approaches have been met with dead ends, or incomprehensible results.

If I was one of the players in this situation, if my character didn't have substantial personal interest or anything at stake here, I'd simply say "Let's move on, there's insufficient information for us to act on, and we tried a solution, but failed. Our skill sets aren't suited for this, let's go do something we're more suited to, and leave this issue for someone else."

If my character did have substantial personal interest or something at stake, I'd probably see if the group was willing to pool together to purchase a Scroll of Contact Other Plane (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Contact_Other_Plane), and use the divination to try to find out who we could get useful information from. This isn't an ideal solution, since, presumably, this cost is going to eat into the reward for the quest, and isn't a surefire success, so it could just become pure sunk cost. Based on the scenario, I'm guessing that all the answers would return "The old senile lady who couldn't help you can help you, and nobody else can." At which point I'd consider my hands forced into allowing victims to die in order to save victims down the road. If I was willing to buy the scroll, that would mean my character would consider it a failure to allow any more victims to die. This means I would conclude this scenario was absolutely impossible and my character would likely enter a phase of depression and begin to doubt their ability as a hero, not an ideal conclusion for the quest, but at least it may spark some new way of moving forward elsewhere.

If I did have a stake, but was willing to allow more girls to die, then it would be time to try a creative solution like the one mentioned by Scorponok, since Jack_Smith's easy solution was already said to have been tried and failed.



In the end, your players simply won't solve this without additional clues. When it comes to mysteries and puzzles, my rule of thumb is to think of the minimum number of clues needed to solve the thing, and then triple that number. Players are excellent at discarding clues as nothing until after the fact, really, if they can solve it before collecting all the clues, great, but they really ought to be able to assemble a neon sign with the answer if they get every single clue available.

[Spore]

Since I am one of those knuckleheads that makes Whodunnit on my table almost impossible I'd tell you what would be an obvious clue to me. Everyone (including NPCs) rolls an Knowledge Religion check. Who gets the obvious unholy days combined with a god and knows about the god's background would not necessarily start figuring out who but WHY the youngest and the purest virgins are chosen.

[Crake]

Surprised nobody's linked this (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) yet.

[WalkingTheShade]

It's too difficult because it's too perfect. This guy sounds untouchable and unstoppable. He makes zero mistakes. It's unrealistic.
So what? Maybe it's the one really talented serial killer of his generation.
Frankly, it seems that OP really wants his baddie to be very good at what he does. A solution would be not to suddenly make the killer sloppy (and it wouldn't make much sense to the players that the killer suddenly starts leaving clues), but to bring in some element, other than the players, he cannot control and has not planned for.

The following false leads might help livening up the inquiry.
A crazy hobo turns himself in to the city guards, claiming to have committed all the murders, a couple days before the next murder, because the Devil/God/Voices told him to do so. Most officials are fine with accepting the hobo's testimony at face value. However a short cross interrogation would easily show the guy's as bonkers as square wheel. However, the hobo might have seen something, or made some mad conclusion that is not far from the truth ("I will get free and my next victim will be the youngest girl left, Ania the seamstress, muahahaha"). Whatever happens, a girl is killed on the expected day, after the hobo has been executed.
A rapist/murderer is caught after the deed. A mob wants to lynch him claiming he's the serial killer. The current victim was assaulted in plain day, not on the usual date and noticeably more mature than the previous one. The husband and children of the woman are the one who caught the rapist. Maybe the players will figure out the other women were young and alone.
A con man claims to have a lead and extorts some money from the party. Whatever lies the con man makes up are not so far from the truth.
A local clergyman, trying to scare his flock back to church, goes around claiming the culprit of the murders is a demonic spirit summoned to SoDoSoPa the bad part of town by general decadence and great sin of the residents. He cites the date being an unholy day as an evidence for his claims.

[Novawurmson]

I'll chime in to say I also think more information is necessary/a new scenario should be dropped to give the players a jab in the right direction:

-This guy has three grown daughters, right? What if one of them is recently widowed, and thinks she's in danger because she's noticed none of the victims were married? She can ultimately tell them about her father, and how she went to his house the last time she felt worried (the night of the last murder), and he wasn't at home.

-Just because the serial killer left no evidence at the scene of the crime doesn't mean there isn't evidence elsewhere. Maybe as he was dragging a corpse away, a ring or hairpin fell out near his residence, far from the scene of the crime. The ragamuffin who sold the trinket might have more information.

-Who else worships this wicked god in the city? Maybe not all the worshippers are happy to see him striding back in to a position of power in the cult after years of the easy life.

-You can always give the party a chance to catch him in the act on the night of the next murder, even if they don't stop him for good. Stopping him from killing immediately is a win for the party, as it buys them time to find out more.

-Are any of the PCs female and unmarried? He might take an interest in one of the strangers no one in the town is particularly fond of.

-Do any of the PCs frequent brothels? They might find out that none of the girls at any of the brothels in town have been murdered.


Surprised nobody's linked this (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) yet.

That's an incredibly good explanation of how to run a mystery. Thank you for linking it!

[Red Fel]

I'm going to agree with those who've advocated the three clue rule. You've created a scenario where the only way for the players to know what the clues are is to look for them, and the only way to look for them is to know what they are (e.g. ask specific questions of the mother, which seems to be a system explicitly designed to confound the players unless they know what questions to ask). The fact that the solution is obvious to you doesn't mean that it's obvious.

So, you've written the players into a corner. It's time to write them out of it. My suggestion? They aren't the only ones investigating.

The guy is privately a cleric of an evil deity. He is performing a "ritual" of his own devising on an unholy day. Is he honestly the only worshiper of that particular deity in this town? Do you not think her other worshipers start to notice the pattern? Do you not think they want to know what's going on?

So they go out looking for whoever it is that's cramping their style. This makes for an easy run-in with the PCs. If the PCs take any alive, they can swap notes. If the PCs kill them all, they can find clues when they loot the bodies. If the PCs are doing any patrolling, an encounter becomes almost inevitable.

[atemu1234]

... they'd even logically be going after many of the same targets...

I rather like this answer; it possesses a degree of puerile elegance.


I have to disagree. One of the first things to ask is where the murders took place and if there were any witnesses. The answer is "at home" and "none" at every case. That SHOULD make anyone think, seriously. At home, no witnesses. It DOES stick out. Badly, strongly, overwhelmingly.

My answer was ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? because the cleric is making his own ritual just to please his goddess. It's not any known ritual. The man is smart and doesn't want to give any clues. It's enough that his goddess receives human sacrifices. It doesn't have to follow any established pattern. He does this on the day that an Unholy Saint was martyred. The PCs could know this, if they had any ranks in Knowledge (religion), but they don't have any.

That is not NO RITUAL, that is UNKNOWN RITUAL. Rituals are visible, even if you don't know what the ritual is for.

Also, did you do this to legitimately play to your group's weaknesses? Because you shouldn't.

Smart =/= leaves no clues. Plenty of criminals IRL are 'smart' - but that doesn't mean nothing is left behind.

[MyrPsychologist]

After reading the information that the players know I am at a loss to even find a reason why the should care about these murders at all. They seem pretty irrelevant unless this solitary cleric is also some part of a larger plot. I think first and foremost you need to address this fact and actually make them care about the solution of the mystery, presuming the solution is important after all.

Now. Your clues are really vague and not really clues at all. A specific day means very little unless the party can connect this to a specific religion or habit of importance. I would expand upon this a lot. Add witnesses. Someone has got to see, hear, or smell something that is going on in this small district. Nobody is perfect either so even if they're adequately disguising their behavior it will still be noticed by SOMEONE. Even if he's just the soup guy that comes on the last Tuesday of the month. Somebody is getting the soup and notices that it links up with the same days of the murders.

I would also take some time and expand on the fact that the culprit is a cleric. Unless this is purely a mechanical designation of you stating his class, he will still have some followers or compatriots associated with his church. These people's actions could also be a great source of information. Maybe one gets caught trying to steal some special oil used in holy rituals or something and players can interrogate him and find the religious motivation. Or maybe this guy's actions are part of a bigger scheme and the religion is starting to make bigger moves now. Really, do something with this bit of information. Unless it is completely irrelevant and only used so you can give him class levels.

Now. Clues. Clues at a crime scene are really difficult to completely erase. There is something called Locard's Exchange Principle that states that anything you come into contact with will result in trace amounts of material being exchanged. So when you touch some dirt you leave behind trace amounts of sweat and skin and the dirt gets on you. So unless this cleric is hovering and a psychic that can literally do everything physical using nothing but the power of his brain, he's going to leave behind some evidence. Maybe there was a struggle and some of his ornate robes were torn on the fireplace. Maybe he didn't thoroughly wash his hands and some of the fish he was eating got on the counter top. Maybe there was a sign of a struggle and there is some nice blood, weapons, or other things associated with the struggle. Give the players something here. There HAS to be evidence. Especially in a world that doesn't have complex means of covering up crimes.

Also. Don't kill off the lead detective. Unless your players are criminal justice majors and actually know how to do this the NPC assistance would be great and provide you the means of adjusting the evidence they have access to if they aren't catching on yet. Give the players this guy's apprentice. Now. And don't kill him too.

[Flickerdart]

So unless this cleric is hovering and a psychic that can literally do everything physical using nothing but the power of his brain, he's going to leave behind some evidence.
Even then, there's always a magic solution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sensitivitytoPsychicImpressions.htm). A 3rd level manifester isn't exactly expensive to hire.

[Telonius]

I like the idea of meeting the killer's kids. That could give you a chance to drop a major hint: Mom and Dad just celebrated their 30th anniversary shortly before her death. If the players combine this with the Town Guard Sergeant's recollection of the cases 30 years ago, that could be a major hint.

[Platymus Pus]

Scroll of locate object or creature may solve this. Why solve a mystery when magic can just find him?

[atemu1234]

Have the ghost of one of the victims show up.

Have a hireling who specializes in the occult show up.

Something.

[Templarkommando]

That is not NO RITUAL, that is UNKNOWN RITUAL. Rituals are visible, even if you don't know what the ritual is for.



I think you're right here. The word "ritual" doesn't even necessarily imply religion at all. Frequently, investigators refer to mutilations or other post-mortem behavior of a killer as the ritual. Like in Silence of the Lambs, Buffalo Bill wasn't a killer(though he certainly was that) nearly so much as he was what he did after the fact. He was a skinner. We're looking for a guy that does creative non-traditional religious rituals. That needs to be brought out.

[Dr TPK]

Alright... Three clues. Three clues...
- The old mother says: "It's awful to die without children, like my sister did. These women didn't have anyone in their lives either." (DM knowledge, but readily available if asked: There are six women who live alone in that district.)
- A middle-aged man with salt and pepper beard has appeared to the neighborhood every night that there's been a murder. If the man is confronted or alerted in any way, he acts politely with the PCs and leaves. It's not easy to spot him that night and it will require lots of luck and/or a great plan. He has carefully hidden the dagger underneath his clothing.
- If the PCs go and bother a wrong woman, she will say that her father/husband doesn't allow strangers hanging around their house at night. They will be driven off from the wrong targets via DM fiat.

[Platymus Pus]

- If the PCs go and bother a wrong woman, she will say that her father/husband doesn't allow strangers hanging around their house at night. They will be driven off from the wrong targets via DM fiat.

If you did that 5 times it'd be rather obvious DM fiat and railroading. Least I think so.

[Nibbens]

So, maybe I'm missing something here, but - why do the heroes always have to win? Bad guys shouldn't always be caught, maidens saved, and dragons slain.

Sometimes the evil guy gets away scott free.

I think that the DM should turn his mistake into his advantage. Sure, he's created a scenario where his PCs feel helpless to stop the events. He's heard us tell him "here's how to fix it" but no one has told him that maybe he shouldn't fix it.

Maybe the next maiden has to die before someone in the town says, "you know what - those heroes were saying something about this earlier." It could be the next 3 maidens have to die before the killer screws up his perfect crimes or someone sees him or whatever.

Why not use this to your advantage and have the heroes get a taste of what an "unstoppable force" feels like. (sure, the guy is stoppable - but the PCs don't see him that way)

Some of my best games - the ones that stick out in my players minds the most were the ones where the PCs only had partial victories or even downright failed their objectives. Failure isn't the end of the road - it's a good roleplay experience. How does the paladin feel about not saving the day? What about the ranger? Does the party rogue start drinking a bit more than usual? Is the wizard staring into his spellbooks longer than usual? Failure in a quest is a great potential for roleplay.

Now, I'm not saying that the PCs should never stop the guy. But have the feel the frustration of having to try and dig up clues off this guy, etc etc. Sure, the OP knows he may have messed up in designing this adventure - but his PCs don't have to know that. All they know is that they didn't catch the information in time to prevent the next murder from going down. Depressing as all get out - but a new twist on the usual "hero saves the day" motif. Maybe the hero only saves you the day after next sometimes...

And by all means, this isn't something you should do often - but every now and again, i think we should all make our PCs feel the feeling of going against an unstoppable force (and conversely, the absolute elation when they finally do stop the murderer). It's something that every player should feel once in their lives.

Edit: Come on, the party has plenty of options!
Ps... Has no one heard of a speak with dead spell?
Pps - get someone to pay 5 grand for a raise dead spell. Have the victim tell the PCs who did it - end of story.
Ppps - Planehop to whatever afterlife the individual went to and have their ghost tell you.

[atemu1234]

If you did that 5 times it'd be rather obvious DM fiat and railroading. Least I think so.

5 out of six to the fifth power is 3125/7776, about one in two, for those wondering.

[Darth Ultron]

I have to disagree. One of the first things to ask is where the murders took place and if there were any witnesses. The answer is "at home" and "none" at every case. That SHOULD make anyone think, seriously. At home, no witnesses. It DOES stick out. Badly, strongly, overwhelmingly.

Remember it is only easy for you as you know the answer. So you can say they ''should'' ask the questions to know what you already know. But it is not that easy.

And even if they do get the ''at home'' and ''none'' that does not automatically leap to the answer that ''they live alone'' .



My answer was ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? because the cleric is making his own ritual just to please his goddess. It's not any known ritual. The man is smart and doesn't want to give any clues. It's enough that his goddess receives human sacrifices. It doesn't have to follow any established pattern. He does this on the day that an Unholy Saint was martyred. The PCs could know this, if they had any ranks in Knowledge (religion), but they don't have any.

And that is why it is too hard. No clues.

And worse, your railroading the mystery: the only thing the PCs can do is go protect the 16 year old and encounter the cleric. And the only clues are ''well are you guys going to protect the 16 year old yet?'' type clues.

[Dr TPK]

Three clue rule was suggested and I'm giving them three clues. What more should I do to make this a decent mystery?

[Crake]

Remember it is only easy for you as you know the answer. So you can say they ''should'' ask the questions to know what you already know. But it is not that easy.

And even if they do get the ''at home'' and ''none'' that does not automatically leap to the answer that ''they live alone'' .

I've run a few successful murder mysteries in my time, and I've also participated in a few not so successful ones. One of the things I notice DMs getting wrong is lack of delegation. The town guard are there to do the job of things like rounding up witnesses and gathering information. If the players are working in conjunction with the town guard, these aren't things the players should be doing, it's things the DM should actually just give them. Have the town guards that did the questioning of potential witnesses just straight up tell that sort of thing to the players.

It sounds like the DM has read one too many muder mystery books, or watched a few too many crime dramas, and expects everyone to have an equal understanding of standard investigation procedures, which they clearly dont, because he's right, checking for witnesses is pretty much one of the first things you should do, the problem is the player's dont know that. That's where the town guard should have come in, and done that for the players. The real question is though, are the players actually enjoying this? Murder mysteries are the kinds of things that only really work if the players actually want to participate in them, otherwise they just sit around twiddling their thumbs while they wait for either the GM to spoonfeed them, or just watch the crimes unfold one after the other.

Rai, you need to ask yourself, are you running this for yourself, or for your players? Don't lie to yourself either, that doesn't help the issue. If you find that the mystery isn't working out, have the next murder result in a demon being summoned that kills the cleric and goes on a rampage through the city, which the players then defeat and discover the cleric's body at the scene of the crime. Or something.


Three clue rule was suggested and I'm giving them three clues. What more should I do to make this a decent mystery?

The three clue rule isn't just about coming up with three clues, it's about making the clues adaptable, and not bottlenecks. The players need to be able to find the clue in a large variety of ways, the clues you presented all still require the players to follow a specific train of logic
Gave them a re-read, that's not quite the case. They are quite easily accessible, but they don't actually provide any means to a conclusion. You're still expecting them to make giant leaps of logic with the information provided. Those three clues are just the first step in a series of clues that they would need to find.

[MyrPsychologist]

Alright... Three clues. Three clues...
- The old mother says: "It's awful to die without children, like my sister did. These women didn't have anyone in their lives either." (DM knowledge, but readily available if asked: There are six women who live alone in that district.)
- A middle-aged man with salt and pepper beard has appeared to the neighborhood every night that there's been a murder. If the man is confronted or alerted in any way, he acts politely with the PCs and leaves. It's not easy to spot him that night and it will require lots of luck and/or a great plan. He has carefully hidden the dagger underneath his clothing.
- If the PCs go and bother a wrong woman, she will say that her father/husband doesn't allow strangers hanging around their house at night. They will be driven off from the wrong targets via DM fiat.

1. Your first clue is pretty vague and only provides the possibility of a circumstantial MO. However due to the size of the district it at least provides some direction to go on. It's a start here. But be prepared for the players to miss it or not necessarily recognize that its important. I would recommend using an authority figure working on the case or someone with actual investigative power in this city so that the players can recognize that it's the actual direction you want them to go in instead of the ramblings of an old lady.

2. I like the second clue actually. But expound on it. Really. Throw in something that marks him in a distinct way. Maybe its the robe. Maybe its a scar. It doesn't have to be a straight up face and full description, but something that the players can recognize and hold onto. If you don't want to give any distinction of his physical appearance you can distinct his behavior. For example maybe he has been seen STALKING in the district but reacts overly polite and apologetic when confronted. This behavior is suspicious, curious, and enough to rouse more investigation and mark him as a person of interest.

3. Trial and error is kind of boring and will further diminish how much they actually care about the case.

You need evidence that links the culprit to the crime. He had to leave something. Or be seen. Or be distinctive enough that even snippets are recognizable. You can't make him a perfect killer or it's just absurdly difficult. Your players aren't in your head. Don't expect them to make huge leaps and bounds.

[Troacctid]

Three clue rule was suggested and I'm giving them three clues. What more should I do to make this a decent mystery?

Well you've only given one clue so far: the raw statistical data provided by the detective's mother. And I'm not sure that counts as a very strong clue either--it's just facts that don't necessarily point to a specific lead. You're going to need more clues.

[XionUnborn01]

I've run a few successful murder mysteries in my time, and I've also participated in a few not so successful ones. One of the things I notice DMs getting wrong is lack of delegation. The town guard are there to do the job of things like rounding up witnesses and gathering information. If the players are working in conjunction with the town guard, these aren't things the players should be doing, it's things the DM should actually just give them. Have the town guards that did the questioning of potential witnesses just straight up tell that sort of thing to the players.

It sounds like the DM has read one too many muder mystery books, or watched a few too many crime dramas, and expects everyone to have an equal understanding of standard investigation procedures, which they clearly dont, because he's right, checking for witnesses is pretty much one of the first things you should do, the problem is the player's dont know that. That's where the town guard should have come in, and done that for the players. The real question is though, are the players actually enjoying this? Murder mysteries are the kinds of things that only really work if the players actually want to participate in them, otherwise they just sit around twiddling their thumbs while they wait for either the GM to spoonfeed them, or just watch the crimes unfold one after the other.

Rai, you need to ask yourself, are you running this for yourself, or for your players? Don't lie to yourself either, that doesn't help the issue. If you find that the mystery isn't working out, have the next murder result in a demon being summoned that kills the cleric and goes on a rampage through the city, which the players then defeat and discover the cleric's body at the scene of the crime. Or something.


Crake hit the nail on the head. Just because the PCs are used to having to do things alone, they shouldn't have to in this situation. The guards should be genuinely sharing strange or important clues because the guards know what to do because it's their job.

A guard could easily say something like, "The culprit must be smart, there haven't been any witnesses for the murders because there's no one else living there. It's a shame too, girls this young that aren't even married and to go out like that. That gives him all the time he needs to do whatever evil thing he does."
Additionally, it's certainly realistic for a guard to tell them that, "It's the craziest thing but there's not a single trace of the culprit besides [insert whatever is at the scene here]. It's...too clean, almost unnatural. This guy sure has an knack for covering his tracks, he must have done this before."

These things point out that:

1) It's obvious that there's a pattern of people living alone, all unmarried and young.
2) The guards realize that he's nearly perfect at covering his tracks meaning he's probably not young and immature but experienced and careful.


If you watch a lot of popular crime shows, there's plenty of times where a side character will point out something that was obvious but the audience wouldn't know so they had to be told explicitly. Your PCs are the audience, you have to let them know what's going on that they need to know.

[MyrPsychologist]

Well you've only given one clue so far: the raw statistical data provided by the detective's mother. And I'm not sure that counts as a very strong clue either--it's just facts that don't necessarily point to a specific lead. You're going to need more clues.

This kind of data does provide the possibility of establishing a MO to help understand the killer and predict who are potential victims. However, if there are more than 1 potential new victims it will kind of be a moot point because the players have so very few clues to go on and can't really make an educated guess. So it would probably just be random chance if they pick the right target (presuming they get this far) or DM fiat. which i always like to shy away from.

There's also the fact that this information is being provided by some random old lady that isn't even associated with the guard or an independent investigation. So the information doesn't even seem credible and can't be verified.

But really. Provide your players with clues about the killer.

[jok]

.

In a feudal society, you're talking about women that are part of the peasantry. Usually, these women would be married off or at least betrothed at very early ages... ages that would be illegal today. If for some reason this did not work out, then they would live with their parents for a time, and then possibly be sent off to a convent. What we're looking for is women that have fallen through the cracks. They were widowed or divorced after betrothal, their parents died, they ran away because they didn't want to go to a convent. They then take up whatever work they can get to survive. Being a seamstress, a brewer possibly, or a prostitute.

Yes exactly. And as soon as the women work some place other people care about theire murder.
The midevel reaction would be to blame jews, strangers or witches. But anyway the heat would be on. People will get burned, or more likely tortured to get confessions.

Atleast other NPC clerics should recognise the ritual as beeing a ritual. This is pretty much the perfect case to show your flock what the evil side is capable of doing. They better pray to your god and follow your rules.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Another thing to think about, and I don't really know a solution for this, but here's the "problem": In a detective story, the killer usually gets introduced about one third of the run time into the story. If it's earlier than that he's too obvious a suspect, if it's later than that or not at all the audience is missing a lot of clues. The murderer leaves a rose at every crime scene, that could mean like a ton of things, but if there's a guy present who's late wife was a florist, there's a connection. It's not a strong connection, but it's more solid than any hypothetical link to any hypothetical person. I'd expect that your PC's will at some point or another start lashing out towards one of the NPC's they actually met, someone with a role in their story, because they find a weak link (someone saw an old guy, the captain of the guard is old) and run with it, trained by too many crime shows. It's pretty unusual for the culprit to be a complete unknown party (which doesn't mean it can't be done very well, just look at Silence of the Lambs). So maybe try to find some hints that could steer them back off the wrong track ones they think they found who they're looking for or something.

(Fun fact: because too many people have gotten a feel for who the murderer is in crime stories they often insert decoys who's job description is basically "be introduced about a third of the way in, have some vague connection to the plot and stay just about relevant but nothing more than that until the reveal, and not a moment longer". Those characters are really fun to spot the next time you watch one of these. But that has no relevance to your plot.)

[Dr TPK]

Rai, you need to ask yourself, are you running this for yourself, or for your players? Don't lie to yourself either, that doesn't help the issue. If you find that the mystery isn't working out, have the next murder result in a demon being summoned that kills the cleric and goes on a rampage through the city, which the players then defeat and discover the cleric's body at the scene of the crime. Or something.




I offered my players three options: Dungeoneering in a jungle, defeating anoble's evil son or solving a murder. They took the last option because it seems relatively safe.

So if I'm doing this for myself, at least I didn't railroad it on them.

[Crake]

I offered my players three options: Dungeoneering in a jungle, defeating an noble's evil son or solving a murder. They took the last option because it seems relatively safe.

So if I'm doing this for myself, at least I didn't railroad it on them.

"Because it seemed relatively safe". Time to take them out of their comfort zone. What level is this taking place at? I think your cleric needs to start killing off players to get them off his trail. Do the players all stick together at all times? Where do they sleep, when can they be picked off? That'll teach 'em to pick the "easy" option.

Plus it'll give you the opportunity to scatter more clues.

[Dr TPK]

"Because it seemed relatively safe". Time to take them out of their comfort zone. What level is this taking place at? I think your cleric needs to start killing off players to get them off his trail. Do the players all stick together at all times? Where do they sleep, when can they be picked off? That'll teach 'em to pick the "easy" option.

Plus it'll give you the opportunity to scatter more clues.

The PCs are at levels 7 to 10.

Sure, I'd be happy leave clues on a dead PC.

[GreyBlack]

Wow! Looking over your PC list, I almost feel like this is an inappropriate challenge for them. What are the int scores? Have they searched the crime scenes? Looked into previous criminal histories? Their characters may not actually be capable of these things. I would almost let them higher a Private Investigator to help them search for clues. Perhaps that private eye (at a considerable fee) would be willing to look at the information for any commonalities between the case. That's where you drop the "they live alone" bomb and get them back on track.

[Yahzi]

- She must live alone.
In a poor medieval district, no woman lives alone.

No man of any reputation does, either; a man without family is a lone wolf, not to be trusted.

Poor people that can't tell they are safer in the presence of 9th level spell casters are too stupid to live, anyway.

[Crake]

The PCs ate at levels 7 to 10.

Sure, I'd be happy leave clues on a dead PC.

You realise, if the cleric is at least level 9... commune would get them the name of the murderer at the cost of 300xp, unless he has mind blank up.

[Templarkommando]

Yes exactly. And as soon as the women work some place other people care about theire murder.
The midevel reaction would be to blame jews, strangers or witches. But anyway the heat would be on. People will get burned, or more likely tortured to get confessions.

Atleast other NPC clerics should recognise the ritual as beeing a ritual. This is pretty much the perfect case to show your flock what the evil side is capable of doing. They better pray to your god and follow your rules.

There's a lot of that sort of thing that happened in 1888 England (which again, is Victorian England/Industrial England, not Medieval England, but still...) when we're talking about Jack the Ripper. There had just recently been a lot of persecutions of Polish Jews in the Russian Empire, so a great number of them began to fill the East End of London. One of the notions that picks up around that time is that the killings were so vicious that it couldn't possibly be a "civilized" Englishman that did the crimes. As a result, there are a number of immigrants that were suspected, in addition to at least one "Devil Worshippper." In all actuality, the person that committed the crimes probably knew the East End of London very well - as in so well that he had been raised on the streets of White Chapel. He probably *was* a "civilized Englishman," but many of the police and newspaper men were too blind to see it.


In a poor medieval district, no woman lives alone.

No man of any reputation does, either; a man without family is a lone wolf, not to be trusted.

Poor people that can't tell they are safer in the presence of 9th level spell casters are too stupid to live, anyway.

I believe this notion of no women living alone is incorrect. While we would suspect most women to not live alone generally, it's not expected as an absolute. Many medieval cities and towns would contain young women that were widows, orphans, transients, runaways, street urchins, a few entrepreneurs, prostitutes and outcasts. In a D&D style world, you can also throw the odd adventurer on top of that pile.

[Seclora]

I believe this notion of no women living alone is incorrect. While we would suspect most women to not live alone generally, it's not expected as an absolute. Many medieval cities and towns would contain young women that were widows, orphans, transients, runaways, street urchins, a few entrepreneurs, prostitutes and outcasts. In a D&D style world, you can also throw the odd adventurer on top of that pile.

So what you're saying is, all of the women in question would be -interesting-.

If you have a single female PC, have her commit some kind of crime so that the guards will round up the usual suspects ad hold them the night of the crimes. Screw cooperating with the authorities, you can manipulate the authorities!
Sorry, think my LE just slipped out there.
Anyway, it puts you in the same location as the potential victims and sets up the earlier proposed plan. Or, it leaves the female PC in the position of only viable target for the murderer, if she miraculously isn't caught.


As the DM, you could just round up the women, say 'the guard is acting on your advice anyways, because they have no better plan available', and then take either route. 'Course, it works better if the Players feel some degree of agency in the world.

[Dr TPK]

I'm aware of the fact that a woman living alone, especially someone who is young, is unusual. That's why there are total of 3 in the district, and and without an age limit there are 6. Too much? Well, I apologize. I thought it was realistic!

[sakuuya]

How do you expect them to figure out who the murderer is? Is determining the next victim and protecting her the only way? (Is it even a way? Will he try to attack his ideal target even if the PCs are there?)

[XionUnborn01]

How do you expect them to figure out who the murderer is? Is determining the next victim and protecting her the only way? (Is it even a way? Will he try to attack his ideal target even if the PCs are there?)

That's actually a good point. Is there any way for the PCs to discover his identity right now? It seems like the only possible way is to gamble on one girl being the target and hope he shows up.

[Grek]

If you can't think of more physical/situational clues to give them, have the killer (or an ally? does the killer have allies?) hear about the PCs efforts and try to stop them. Maybe he tries to murder them, maybe he sends them a taunting letter telling them to give up. If he has minions, maybe he sends them to intimidate them. If he's a caster, maybe he sends a spell their way.

[2xMachina]

Is there even a way for them to find out who's the target?

Why aren't they playing 20 questions with the mother? They basically know: woman, and there's 30 of them. They need other info also.

[Dr TPK]

I would like to run this as protection mission. Is that really bad? Is that railroading?
I'm not giving you any clues on the killer, but I'm giving you clues about the victim. You can still figure out who the killer is, but you have to use your guile!

And I would figure the killer out without receiving any clues. I'd just use Gather Information to find it. That would not be that difficult.

[jok]

I believe this notion of no women living alone is incorrect. While we would suspect most women to not live alone generally, it's not expected as an absolute. Many medieval cities and towns would contain young women that were widows, orphans, transients, runaways, street urchins, a few entrepreneurs, prostitutes and outcasts. In a D&D style world, you can also throw the odd adventurer on top of that pile.

But here we have the virgin qulifier. So no widow or prostitude. How does the priest even know they are virgins? Since they live alone they are not part of a convent or a family. Chances of virgins get realy small here.
A healthy young woman (without family or other social constructs like convent, employer or thieves guild) in a poor part of town (town without functioning authorities) wont be virgin for long...

But I think this living alone is the bigger problem. Poor people did not live in houses alone. If one can pay the rent of a flat one was not poor.

[Grek]

I would like to run this as protection mission. Is that really bad? Is that railroading?
Yes. Your players were on board with running it as a protection mission and started hashing out the particulars of how they were going to protect the possible victims. But then you vetoed the method they wanted to use because it didn't fit with how you saw the story going. Even though it makes sense in universe, its still pretty railroady.

Basically, if you want this to work you need to give them more clues about who to protect, let them protect multiple victims, OR let them learn more about the killer and particularly the killer's motives.

[XionUnborn01]

I would like to run this as protection mission. Is that really bad? Is that railroading?
I'm not giving you any clues on the killer, but I'm giving you clues about the victim. You can still figure out who the killer is, but you have to use your guile!

And I would figure the killer out without receiving any clues. I'd just use Gather Information to find it. That would not be that difficult.

First, do your PCs even have ranks in Gather Info? If not, does any of them have the stats to try it without ranks?

Secondly, I've run and been in mystery games and Gather Info is usually overlooked because the point of the mystery is to gather info, so most people assume it won't work and in some of the mystery games I've been in it's flat out not allowed because we're basically acting out the gather info.

[Templarkommando]

But here we have the virgin qulifier. So no widow or prostitude. How does the priest even know they are virgins? Since they live alone they are not part of a convent or a family. Chances of virgins get realy small here.
A healthy young woman (without family or other social constructs like convent, employer or thieves guild) in a poor part of town (town without functioning authorities) wont be virgin for long...

But I think this living alone is the bigger problem. Poor people did not live in houses alone. If one can pay the rent of a flat one was not poor.

I think there's a good point there. One point that I would raise though is that when we're talking about this historically, there are still poor people that can afford their own room. Mary Jane Kelly - a victim of Jack the Ripper - is a prime example. The other 4 of his canonical victims spent their time in doss houses and flop houses and things of that sort where you could expect more than 100 people to be housed in 1 large room. There's more to that story, but my lunch break is over. More on that later.

[Red Fel]

I would like to run this as protection mission. Is that really bad? Is that railroading?

If you want to run a protection mission, run a protection mission.

A woman is aware of a series of killings in her town. She hires the PCs to defend her. Perhaps she is a target, perhaps she isn't. Perhaps instead the person who hired the PCs is someone who took in a target who survived, and is worried that the killer will come after her a second time.

Those are protection missions. Those are missions where a person is concerned that the killer will come, and hires the PCs to stop this. Perhaps the PCs do some investigation to determine what to expect, perhaps they proactively go out to find the killer before he can strike, but otherwise their explicitly stated job is to protect the Johnson. That's a protection mission.

What you're describing is a protection mission that hasn't told anyone it's a protection mission. It's a murder mystery. It's an investigation. You've given them so many clues that it's apparent that their goal must be to investigate and locate the killer before he strikes again. Their goal is not to protect the Johnson, because Ms. Johnson hasn't presented herself and said, "I am Ms. Johnson, here is my money, protect me." She doesn't even have to literally say that; any potential victim could knock at the PCs' door in a panic and murmur, "I fear that I am next," before collapsing in a dead faint. Boom, instant protection mission. This isn't that.

Railroading is telling the players, "This is the story, this is the mission, run it." What you're doing goes beyond that - you've pointed them in the direction of the subway, but expect them to climb aboard the bullet train. Just hand them the ticket and give them directions already.


I'm not giving you any clues on the killer, but I'm giving you clues about the victim. You can still figure out who the killer is, but you have to use your guile!

And I would figure the killer out without receiving any clues. I'd just use Gather Information to find it. That would not be that difficult.

You gave me the impression that they'd already tried that. I got the impression from what you said that they had already tried skill checks, and had learned things like "It's not a ritual" (meaning "it's not one you've heard of") and "The detective's mother has the answers" ("but she won't tell you anything"). Saying that you would do simple skill checks doesn't help when the PCs have tried that and failed.

[Cruiser1]

I think your cleric needs to start killing off players to get them off his trail.
The Eberron adventure "Whisper of the Vampire's Blade" says, "whenever the action lags, have a guy kick in the door and start a fight". :smallamused: If the players are stuck, have the evil Cleric realize that these powerful adventurers are investigating his crimes. Therefore, the Cleric hires assassins to kick in the door and attack the PC's. Assuming the PC's win (which they should assuming a CR appropriate encounter) they can interrogate the attackers and get more clues about who hired them.

[MyrPsychologist]

I would like to run this as protection mission. Is that really bad? Is that railroading?
I'm not giving you any clues on the killer, but I'm giving you clues about the victim. You can still figure out who the killer is, but you have to use your guile!

And I would figure the killer out without receiving any clues. I'd just use Gather Information to find it. That would not be that difficult.

I would argue that yes, this is railroading. But you're kind of in the corner here. You gave them a mystery without a solution and even this is an illogical leap imo.

Let me take a moment and put on my criminal justice hat (the field i'm pursuing a masters in).

Your criminal has a MO but no information is really available to determine it. The victims are all virgins, but this is a fact that can't be verified without close examination of the body. Given the culture of the community, this is probably not going to happen. We also know that said individual has been killing them as part of an evil religion's rituals but no clues about the ritual are provided. So from this information the only thing that is known is that he kills young girls.

So your characters have to make assumptions with this in mind. They then have to make assumptions that he will STAY in the area. Even without knowing more information about the case this is not exactly known and he could very easily move on to other distracts or even leave the city entirely. So little is known about this individual that even running a protection mission on the remaining "virgins" is a huge assumption and could very easily result in the killer just picking off a different target. Because really, what's to stop him from grabbing some vagrant at the docks or other place of merchantry where poor people often beg?

You can run an investigation using information about the victims but there needs to be a lot more. You need to pull up information about their associates, their history, and their current life. You also need to closely examine the crime scene for any possible linking evidence and use any possible witness to direct the investigation and hopefully point you in the direction of what you're looking for. Typically you aren't looking for a "next" target because that would be absurd in an actual serial killer investigation. You're looking for a common theme that links the victims AND the suspects. So you can narrow people down and figure it out. But what you created is something very rare and difficult. A killer that leaves zero evidence, has perfect lethality and stealth, and kills at random. Because really, there is no reason why he or anyone else would choose this one specific district and start picking people off. Without any link it might not even be one guy. It could just be a coincidence. Important note: In most murders the culprit is someone that knows the victim. But not so here.

And really, if they have the notes of the lead investigator on the case I don't really see why a gather information check would be so necessary to get a clue. They should have the tools at hand, there just isn't anything that they can analyze.

[Templarkommando]

But here we have the virgin qulifier. So no widow or prostitude. How does the priest even know they are virgins? Since they live alone they are not part of a convent or a family. Chances of virgins get realy small here.
A healthy young woman (without family or other social constructs like convent, employer or thieves guild) in a poor part of town (town without functioning authorities) wont be virgin for long...

But I think this living alone is the bigger problem. Poor people did not live in houses alone. If one can pay the rent of a flat one was not poor.

Okay, sorry about that. Started writing my post earlier and lost track of how much time was left on my lunch break.

You are right where the virgin qualifier is concerned. That does eliminate prostitutes from the lineup and quite a few others. There are still a few chances depending on a number of factors. The society that you're in may be sexually repressed, so people that have not yet been married may tend more toward virginity. That's not necessarily the case, but that would mean that if you have an independent seamstress running around, then she might very well have never had sex.

The victims in the Jack the Ripper story were all victims of opportunity for the killer. Each of them was already in dire straights by merit of living in the East End of London, however in addition to this there are circumstances that increased risk for the victims. Mary Jane Kelly was behind on her rent, I think the other 4 canonical victims was basically going to spend the night on the street in a year that was so cold that snow had been on the ground in London in July. All of the victims are likely to have been alcoholics that were drunk at the time of their murder. This all together makes for a victim that is 1.) willing to accompany their murderer in the hopes of collecting a fee, and 2.) inebriated with hindered inhibitions.

Unless our cleric has a Detect Virginity spell, he's going to be hard pressed to find suitable victims. Going around and asking all young women in a community whether they are virgins or not is already very strange activity. Top that with the ritual for a zone of truth(or some other spell to truthfully reveal virginity), and things that were already strange have entered creepy territory. Maybe there's some other means that a level 9 cleric can pull off a divination of that sort.

[Flickerdart]

Spell research is a thing, so one imagines that clerics of a god that likes virgin sacrifices will have developed some way of figuring it out.

[Templarkommando]

Spell research is a thing, so one imagines that clerics of a god that likes virgin sacrifices will have developed some way of figuring it out.

I hadn't thought of that. I think you're right about that.

[Yahzi]

Since they live alone they are not part of a convent or a family. Chances of virgins get realy small here.
Exactly,


]But I think this living alone is the bigger problem. Poor people did not live in houses alone. If one can pay the rent of a flat one was not poor.
Poor people didn't live in flats. Multiple poor families shared a single flat. Nobody lived alone in those days. You were either rich enough to have servants or poor enough to have to share with others.

[Dr TPK]

Ok, so far we have railroading and an impossible adventure. I suggested giving them 3 clues but that wasn't received very well. I have no idea what to do. Simply put, what should I do? There are some suggestions here but I don't know what to do with them.

[sakuuya]

The problem, I suspect, is miscommunication: You presented this adventure to your players as a murder mystery, then threw up brick walls when they tried to figure out the murderer because it's not really a murder mystery; it's a protection mission. In the latter, the goal is to save a specific person, while in the former, the goal is to figure out who the bad guy is. These can be related goals, but they're not the same thing.

So you need to decide what the heck the adventure is. If it's a protection mission, give them enough information to figure out who to protect without making them ask specific NPCs specific questions, and tell them you're thinking of it as a protection mission so they stop approaching it like a murder mystery. If it's a murder mystery, let them make headway on figuring out who the murderer is.

[atemu1234]

The problem, I suspect, is miscommunication: You presented this adventure to your players as a murder mystery, then threw up brick walls when they tried to figure out the murderer because it's not really a murder mystery; it's a protection mission. In the latter, the goal is to save a specific person, while in the former, the goal is to figure out who the bad guy is. These can be related goals, but they're not the same thing.

So you need to decide what the heck the adventure is. If it's a protection mission, give them enough information to figure out who to protect without making them ask specific NPCs specific questions, and tell them you're thinking of it as a protection mission so they stop approaching it like a murder mystery. If it's a murder mystery, let them make headway on figuring out who the murderer is.

This. They aren't figuring out about the victims because they're trying to figure out who the murderer is.

[Dread_Head]

Ok, so far we have railroading and an impossible adventure. I suggested giving them 3 clues but that wasn't received very well. I have no idea what to do. Simply put, what should I do? There are some suggestions here but I don't know what to do with them.

One of two things.

1) Decide you are going to go full on with the protection mission. Have a terrified girl come to them looking for protection. She knew several of the victims and says that they were all single women who lived alone and as she was also a single woman who lived alone she was worried she would be next. Maybe she heard their prospective plan about gathering the people to protect them and thought it a good idea even if her elders didn't. It doesn't matter if she would have been targeted next or not, now they have some clues and a target to protect. Maybe the killer tries for her and the PCs lay a clever trap for him. Maybe they catch him, maybe he escapes but they got a look at his face. Or if they aren't subtle in their ambush then maybe he is thrown and kills a drastically different victim, perhaps leaving behind his first clue as he hadn't prepared for it.

OR

2) Continue with the murder mystery theme but give them more clues. They overhear someone saying that whilst the killings didn't fit with any known rituals they did have all the trappings of one. Then they investigate this and an old scholar tells them that rituals like this would be best used to grant power to the god of the cleric. Maybe they stumble over an old scroll stating that the day the killings are carried out on is an unholy day of the clerics god. Or when they ask about info on the day give them a list with a few irrelevant things but also that it is the unholy day of the clerics god and that it is the monthly day off for all sewerage and sanitation workers. Give them a few clues pointing towards the killer and see if they manage anything with that.

Or maybe even combine the two: they are finally making a breakthrough with the case but they also have several terrified young women demanding to be kept safe to deal with. They have to make decisions about whether to split the team into investigation and protection.

[tomandtish]

I have to disagree. One of the first things to ask is where the murders took place and if there were any witnesses. The answer is "at home" and "none" at every case. That SHOULD make anyone think, seriously. At home, no witnesses. It DOES stick out. Badly, strongly, overwhelmingly.

My answer was ''nope, no rituals. Go fish''? because the cleric is making his own ritual just to please his goddess. It's not any known ritual. The man is smart and doesn't want to give any clues. It's enough that his goddess receives human sacrifices. It doesn't have to follow any established pattern. He does this on the day that an Unholy Saint was martyred. The PCs could know this, if they had any ranks in Knowledge (religion), but they don't have any.

The three clue idea mentioned before is excellent. Also make sure your clues provide enough detail. For example, it's not just that there aren't no witnesses, it's that there aren't even any known POTENTIAL witnesses.

Let me clarify: If I am murdered downstairs and my wife is asleep upstairs, she's not a witness. She was a potential witness and should be questioned (she could be lying). If there are no potential witnesses at any of the killings, that should lead them to realize that all of them lived alone.

And that's assuming you don't have someone slip the information in during other conversations.


Alright... Three clues. Three clues...
- The old mother says: "It's awful to die without children, like my sister did. These women didn't have anyone in their lives either. Still, they never cheapened themselves like so many do, giving their bodies for coin or food." (DM knowledge, but readily available if asked: There are six women who live alone in that district.)



I've run a few successful murder mysteries in my time, and I've also participated in a few not so successful ones. One of the things I notice DMs getting wrong is lack of delegation. The town guard are there to do the job of things like rounding up witnesses and gathering information. If the players are working in conjunction with the town guard, these aren't things the players should be doing, it's things the DM should actually just give them. Have the town guards that did the questioning of potential witnesses just straight up tell that sort of thing to the players. If guard is asked about witnesses: "We couldn't find any witnesses or even possible witnesses". If guard is asked about the women's character/relationships: "None of them were married and they all lived alone. None seemed to have had a companion. We had no trouble from any of them, never even saw them on the street corners. They were (insert occupation here since they were supporting themselves somehow)".


Exactly. Either of these works especially with a little tweaking, which I did to the examples above. Note that with just a little tweak, someone is providing more clear information that shows that they lived alone and weren't prostitutes. That can point them in the single/virgin direction.

[Platymus Pus]

Wait, why can't they just cast speak with dead?

[Dr TPK]

Ok, so I will have an NPC run to the PCs, tell them that all victims were single women who never married, and then the NPC runs off.

Is the adventure fixed now?

[Aharon]

Ok, so I will have an NPC run to the PCs, tell them that all victims were single women who never married, and then the NPC runs off.

Is the adventure fixed now?

You come across a bit frustrated. You got some excellent answers. You acknowledged yourself that your mystery was too difficult in the thread title. Try and use some of the ways to make it easier for the PCs. I would start with the most non-obvious ones => Three clues, and when that isn't helping them enough, use an NPC.

[Honest Tiefling]

Your clues are not clues, is the problem. They make sense from your end, but not for other people. Try to examine things from the perspective of a PC, and work out why they would find things important, and what they would take from it. For instance...


Alright... Three clues. Three clues...
- The old mother says: "It's awful to die without children, like my sister did. These women didn't have anyone in their lives either." (DM knowledge, but readily available if asked: There are six women who live alone in that district.)

This makes sense, as it is an NPC telling them something important. But take it from the side of the PCs? This woman, by your account, is senile. For all that the PCs know, she's talking about people who died 20 years ago. This makes her unreliable, as you know when she's telling the truth, but the PCs don't know when she's saying something important and when she's talking to her cat.


- A middle-aged man with salt and pepper beard has appeared to the neighborhood every night that there's been a murder. If the man is confronted or alerted in any way, he acts politely with the PCs and leaves. It's not easy to spot him that night and it will require lots of luck and/or a great plan. He has carefully hidden the dagger underneath his clothing.

Is he the only man who wanders around at night? If not, they might as well just start mugging everyone and searching them. Do they have a reason to start attacking every man, woman, and child? Is there anything to indicate he is suspicious? If he's a well known clerk, then attacking him to rifle through his pockets would be a bad idea if they get caught. Since there are no witnesses, how would they know he's been walking around every night of the murder? He's also hard to spot, so it is unlikely that a low level population would even notice him.


- If the PCs go and bother a wrong woman, she will say that her father/husband doesn't allow strangers hanging around their house at night. They will be driven off from the wrong targets via DM fiat.

They don't know this. Why would they assume that this means it is a dead end? This isn't a clue, it is an event. It is unrelated to the murders, and would happen regardless of them. This tells the party nothing, because they have no way to connect 'random man is screaming at us' to 'this woman isn't going to get stabbed tonight' because there is no logical connection between the two.

[Templarkommando]

Ok, so I will have an NPC run to the PCs, tell them that all victims were single women who never married, and then the NPC runs off.

Is the adventure fixed now?

Maybe put a little more into that. Maybe there's another inspector/detective that's taken interest in the case and he wants to see what information that the party has come up with and offers to share his own information in exchange for cooperation.

[Elder_Basilisk]

The key to running a good mystery adventure is allowing players to actually investigate rather than defining a specific path of clues they have to follow in order to gain success. You seem to be trying to tell the PCs how to solve it rather than creating the scenario and letting them solve it.

One of the problems is that the previous killings are insufficiently imagined. You identified the victims. You determined the killer's selection criteria... and then you stopped. Because the killer is smart or something.

So what?

Even a smart killer had to do the killing in some way. What was it? Even women who live alone had to be killed somewhere. Where was it? A smart killer who is taking cares to leave "no clues" has to clean up somehow. How did he do it?

The answers to these questions will give the players clues.
1. How were the women killed? Did the priest use slay living or inflict wounds spells? Someone with spellcraft may have noticed signs of that. That would tell the PCs they're looking for an evil divine spellcaster. Did the priest use a morning star? That's something they can look for? A knife? Strangle them? Regardless, the answer will tell the PCs something about the villain.
2. Where were the women killed? Was it in a deserted alley? Was it really deserted? Speak with animals might be able to get a rat's description of what happened? The crazy drunk who was sleeping off last night's bottle of gin an alley over might have heard a scream and heard chanting (spellcasting) or seen an indistinct figure moving away later that night. Was it in their home? The rats or cats might have seen something. If the cleric broke in and then used mending to fix the window latch, someone might have heard the spellcasting (mending has a long casting time), and the latch may now stand out as having been mended--unlike everything else in the house which was not.
2.5 Heck, a young paladin who looked into the murders might have seen residual evil (check how long a 9th level cleric's aura persists in an area--it's long enough to track days after the event) in the area and tracked it to the market where he lost it amid the host of evil auras that are always there.
3. How did the cleric clean up? Prestidigitation usually isn't on his list and he would only have cleaned up what he spotted or thought of. How are his perception and intelligence? (Wisdom is presumably pretty good). But prestidigitation would leave signs that spellcraft would recognize--and might be noticable even without spellcraft (it was like cleaners had just been in the apartment). Mending was addressed before. Create water and scrubbing the blood off his hands and cloak would leave puddles and take time.
If he decided to toss down red herrings, those might be tracked back to him.
For example, let's imagine he bought a stolen dagger with identifying markings and left it at the crime scene to throw people off the scent. The owner of the dagger could be identified, explain that the dagger was stolen, and alibi out of the murders. But how did the killer get the dagger? If something else was stolen at that time (a signet ring maybe), the PCs might be able to use locate object or criminal connections to track that item down and either find out who the fence bought it from (and follow up with the thief to find out who bought the dagger) or if both the ring and the dagger were fenced to the same person, find out who the fence sold the dagger to.

You have also given the players some pretty significant false information. "There is no ritual." (Because the ritual is that there is no ritual).
The players who are thinking down the line or ritual killings should be able to get the following information:
1. Off of a religion check. All of the killings happened on a particular day of the month--"the 13th"/"New Moon"/"Full Moon"/Whatever. That day is holy to . At a higher DC, devout "worshippers of insert evil deity" are expected to murder a woman--preferably a virgin--every month on this day, though there is no specific ritual beyond the murder. (Or maybe there is--some kind of ritual purification or preparation; it's just not a part of the murder. If the cleric has to, say, burn three blocks of a specific incense and eat a particular meal, the PCs could try to use that to track him down).
1.5 There's room for red herrings here to let your players work it out for yourself. Full moon--could be lycanthropes, but followers of Malar murder in a ritual hunt. That wasn't what happened. OK, how about followers of Erythnul? They are supposed to rip the heart out--no ripped hearts? Orcus? OK, that one fits.
1.75 This could be another angle to track down the killer. If they figure out it's a priest of Orcus, they could look for a cult of orcus or use locate object/divination magic to find (un)holy symbols of orcus. Or ask around about [i]other items associated with the worship of orcus. Just because these killings weren't a part of a specific common ritual doesn't mean the cleric doesn't have to do the common deific rituals. Maybe there are a few orcus cults in the city, but following the trail should lead to the guy sooner or later.

2. It's a little unclear what you mean by, "the ritual is that there is no ritual." Does that mean that the murders don't have a common element? Or does it mean that the killer is conducting a ritual--it's just specific to the killer rather than being a ritual common to all worshippers of that dark god. If the latter, then the misinformation is particularly egregious.

[Dr TPK]

Maybe put a little more into that. Maybe there's another inspector/detective that's taken interest in the case and he wants to see what information that the party has come up with and offers to share his own information in exchange for cooperation.

What kind of information the detective should have? I was thinking that he knows exactly what the mother knows, but can't make the connection. The NPC investigator is just as lost as the PCs.

@Honest Tiefling

So I should keep the first clue, ditch the rest and make new ones, right?

@Aharon

So I give the clues I have presented in this thread, if they don't work, I will have an NPC tell them who is the right woman to protect, right?

[Dr TPK]

The key to running a good mystery adventure is allowing players to actually investigate rather than defining a specific path of clues they have to follow in order to gain success. You seem to be trying to tell the PCs how to solve it rather than creating the scenario and letting them solve it.

One of the problems is that the previous killings are insufficiently imagined. You identified the victims. You determined the killer's selection criteria... and then you stopped. Because the killer is smart or something.

So what?

Even a smart killer had to do the killing in some way. What was it? Even women who live alone had to be killed somewhere. Where was it? A smart killer who is taking cares to leave "no clues" has to clean up somehow. How did he do it?

The answers to these questions will give the players clues.
1. How were the women killed? Did the priest use slay living or inflict wounds spells? Someone with spellcraft may have noticed signs of that. That would tell the PCs they're looking for an evil divine spellcaster. Did the priest use a morning star? That's something they can look for? A knife? Strangle them? Regardless, the answer will tell the PCs something about the villain.
2. Where were the women killed? Was it in a deserted alley? Was it really deserted? Speak with animals might be able to get a rat's description of what happened? The crazy drunk who was sleeping off last night's bottle of gin an alley over might have heard a scream and heard chanting (spellcasting) or seen an indistinct figure moving away later that night. Was it in their home? The rats or cats might have seen something. If the cleric broke in and then used mending to fix the window latch, someone might have heard the spellcasting (mending has a long casting time), and the latch may now stand out as having been mended--unlike everything else in the house which was not.
2.5 Heck, a young paladin who looked into the murders might have seen residual evil (check how long a 9th level cleric's aura persists in an area--it's long enough to track days after the event) in the area and tracked it to the market where he lost it amid the host of evil auras that are always there.
3. How did the cleric clean up? Prestidigitation usually isn't on his list and he would only have cleaned up what he spotted or thought of. How are his perception and intelligence? (Wisdom is presumably pretty good). But prestidigitation would leave signs that spellcraft would recognize--and might be noticable even without spellcraft (it was like cleaners had just been in the apartment). Mending was addressed before. Create water and scrubbing the blood off his hands and cloak would leave puddles and take time.
If he decided to toss down red herrings, those might be tracked back to him.
For example, let's imagine he bought a stolen dagger with identifying markings and left it at the crime scene to throw people off the scent. The owner of the dagger could be identified, explain that the dagger was stolen, and alibi out of the murders. But how did the killer get the dagger? If something else was stolen at that time (a signet ring maybe), the PCs might be able to use locate object or criminal connections to track that item down and either find out who the fence bought it from (and follow up with the thief to find out who bought the dagger) or if both the ring and the dagger were fenced to the same person, find out who the fence sold the dagger to.

You have also given the players some pretty significant false information. "There is no ritual." (Because the ritual is that there is no ritual).
The players who are thinking down the line or ritual killings should be able to get the following information:
1. Off of a religion check. All of the killings happened on a particular day of the month--"the 13th"/"New Moon"/"Full Moon"/Whatever. That day is holy to . At a higher DC, devout "worshippers of insert evil deity" are expected to murder a woman--preferably a virgin--every month on this day, though there is no specific ritual beyond the murder. (Or maybe there is--some kind of ritual purification or preparation; it's just not a part of the murder. If the cleric has to, say, burn three blocks of a specific incense and eat a particular meal, the PCs could try to use that to track him down).
1.5 There's room for red herrings here to let your players work it out for yourself. Full moon--could be lycanthropes, but followers of Malar murder in a ritual hunt. That wasn't what happened. OK, how about followers of Erythnul? They are supposed to rip the heart out--no ripped hearts? Orcus? OK, that one fits.
1.75 This could be another angle to track down the killer. If they figure out it's a priest of Orcus, they could look for a cult of orcus or use locate object/divination magic to find (un)holy symbols of orcus. Or ask around about [i]other items associated with the worship of orcus. Just because these killings weren't a part of a specific common ritual doesn't mean the cleric doesn't have to do the common deific rituals. Maybe there are a few orcus cults in the city, but following the trail should lead to the guy sooner or later.

2. It's a little unclear what you mean by, "the ritual is that there is no ritual." Does that mean that the murders don't have a common element? Or does it mean that the killer is conducting a ritual--it's just specific to the killer rather than being a ritual common to all worshippers of that dark god. If the latter, then the misinformation is particularly egregious.

So what would be your suggestion what I should do?

[Red Fel]

What kind of information the detective should have? I was thinking that he knows exactly what the mother knows, but can't make the connection. The NPC investigator is just as lost as the PCs.

@Honest Tiefling

So I should keep the first clue, ditch the rest and make new ones, right?

@Aharon

So I give the clues I have presented in this thread, if they don't work, I will have an NPC tell them who is the right woman to protect, right?

Here's the thing. There is a line between providing the PCs with a lead and explicitly telling the players what to do next.

To give you an example of what Templar is suggesting, consider this. The PCs are approached by another detective, friend and colleague of the dead detective. "I've found a few leads," he explains, "but unfortunately the department can't spare me for this investigation. But Detective So-and-So was my friend, and this was his big case. So I'm going to give you what I have, and in return you're going to promise me that you're going to get the son of a gun who did this and make him pay."

And then he gives them more discrete clues, like how the victims were young and unmarried women, how they lived alone, how they were all killed on this same day of the month, how the killings all seemed to have certain identical signatures (suggesting a specific procedure or ritual), what anybody nearby might have seen - the clues needed to narrow the list substantially, and possibly to reveal the MO of the killer.

Alternatively, if it's actually a protection mission like you said, then it would be easier to have a few women - one of whom is the next target - come to the PCs worried that they might be next. You're not telling the players what to do explicitly, but you're handing them an NPC who wants their help, and if they decline to provide it it's their own stupid fault.

There is a line between saying, "These are the clues you've gathered so far," and "Here is the solution to the mystery," is my point. You don't need to up and tell them who is the victim and who is the killer, but you do need to give them something substantial to go on.

[Dr TPK]

Here's the thing. There is a line between providing the PCs with a lead and explicitly telling the players what to do next.

To give you an example of what Templar is suggesting, consider this. The PCs are approached by another detective, friend and colleague of the dead detective. "I've found a few leads," he explains, "but unfortunately the department can't spare me for this investigation. But Detective So-and-So was my friend, and this was his big case. So I'm going to give you what I have, and in return you're going to promise me that you're going to get the son of a gun who did this and make him pay."

And then he gives them more discrete clues, like how the victims were young and unmarried women, how they lived alone, how they were all killed on this same day of the month, how the killings all seemed to have certain identical signatures (suggesting a specific procedure or ritual), what anybody nearby might have seen - the clues needed to narrow the list substantially, and possibly to reveal the MO of the killer.

Alternatively, if it's actually a protection mission like you said, then it would be easier to have a few women - one of whom is the next target - come to the PCs worried that they might be next. You're not telling the players what to do explicitly, but you're handing them an NPC who wants their help, and if they decline to provide it it's their own stupid fault.

There is a line between saying, "These are the clues you've gathered so far," and "Here is the solution to the mystery," is my point. You don't need to up and tell them who is the victim and who is the killer, but you do need to give them something substantial to go on.

That's fine, I will do that. A detective will tell them that they were all the victims were young and unmarried women, how they lived alone, how they were all killed on this same day of the month, how the killings all seemed to have certain identical signatures (suggesting a specific procedure or ritual), what anybody nearby might have seen (which is that every night there has been a killing, a middle-aged man with a salt and pepper beard has spotted in the district).

I hope that settles it then. Do I still need to specifically point out to the PCs that this is protection mission in order to make this a good adventure?

[Honest Tiefling]

@Honest Tiefling

So I should keep the first clue, ditch the rest and make new ones, right?

I'd ditch the first. Again, senile old lady. I wouldn't be surprised if the party just pats her on the head, tucks her in and ignores her for the rest of the adventure.

I also worry that the hints are meant to work together, now that I think about it. Knowing that they are all living alone and then getting screamed at by a voice that is definitely not female is a more logical connection. I would make the hints build up on each other, but not necessarily related. For instance:


Senile old lady mentions that so and so isn't coming in to call. She also mentions that she left a bit of evidence is with him. Sure, she's senile, but that's too valuable to pass up.
If they don't listen to senile lady, some guy mutters about a dude harassing young women. Turns out, the guy was desperate to catch the killer and got a little too rude and nosey.
Dude is killed before they get there. Doesn't matter if he has the evidence, it could have been tampered with, stolen, or covered in gibblets.
Leave three things of importance in the dude's apartment. For this example, there's fingerprints on the guy's neck, indicating that he's been strangled. This indicates someone strong and tall with larger hands. (Eliminating smaller and younger people).
People come by to collect money, because he hasn't paid his bar tab. The bartender overheard an important hint, but didn't know what to make of it.
There's a religious symbol in the house, indicating he was a man of faith. The priest there indicates he had asked about certain unseemly faiths, but the priest thought he was just being paranoid.


The idea of the three clue rule is that if the PCs miss one, there's another two to point them in the right direction. They either learn it is a taller person, that it is connected to a religion, or they might even get a name from the bartender. There would need to be more hints of course, but that's a start.

I wouldn't worry about it being historically accurate, your setting might have a different culture and expectations. For instance, they could live alone in smaller flats without a kitchen, and living alone would not automatically imply that they are ruffians. They could rent out a room in a townhouse, so they aren't really 'alone', but alone enough to get murdered. Perhaps the religion has a strong sense of taking in strangers, or that diligence and self-sufficiency are highly valued traits in womenfolk.

I also would not have an NPC tell them who to protect. They still think this is a mystery, and might instead try to convince the woman to go stay with family, the guards, a good aligned temple, or with the NPC who gave the hint while they chase the killer because they think that is what they are supposed to do. If they also aren't classes that are good at guarding (rogues, investigators, druids, etc.) they might decide that being aggressive is better. Given that the guards don't seem too helpful, they might worry about attracting too much attention in a fight in a smaller building and getting into trouble with the law on top of having to convince the guards that no, really, this random man is totes the killer.

[Red Fel]

That's fine, I will do that. A detective will tell them that they were all the victims were young and unmarried women, how they lived alone, how they were all killed on this same day of the month, how the killings all seemed to have certain identical signatures (suggesting a specific procedure or ritual), what anybody nearby might have seen (which is that every night there has been a killing, a middle-aged man with a salt and pepper beard has spotted in the district).

I hope that settles it then. Do I still need to specifically point out to the PCs that this is protection mission in order to make this a good adventure?

"Good adventure" isn't measured by what you do, but how your players enjoy it.

If they come away from this thinking, "Wow, that was a tough mystery, but we solved it, and I feel accomplished," it was a good adventure.

Now, if the detective tells them about the victims, the PCs may seek them out and try to protect them. That's good. If, on the other hand, you share too much about the killer, the PCs may try to seek him out before he kills again. Obviously, this may interfere with your professed goal of having it be a protection mission, but if they try, I say let them go for it. "Middle-aged man with a salt and pepper beard" isn't a lot to go on, but if they find a way to trace it back to him, let them try. If they succeed, mystery solved and victim protected; if they fail, hopefully they'll still have time to protect the victim before the next killing.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's fine, I will do that. A detective will tell them that they were all the victims were young and unmarried women, how they lived alone, how they were all killed on this same day of the month, how the killings all seemed to have certain identical signatures (suggesting a specific procedure or ritual), what anybody nearby might have seen (which is that every night there has been a killing, a middle-aged man with a salt and pepper beard has spotted in the district).

Wait...How come the PCs didn't notice the dude wandering around? Or the identical signatures, indicating the ritual? They failed the Knowledge Religion check if I understand correctly, but I assume that they would have some clue that the killings were all done in the same, odd, way?

[Elder_Basilisk]

So what would be your suggestion what I should do?

1. Correct/amend the "no ritual" answer. Retcon it if you must.
2. Introduce some new information. Since there are indecipherable notes, you can just let the players find some more information there: Maybe the name of the person who investigated each murder--if they were investigated. Maybe the details themselves: how murdered, where, anything that was noticed when the old woman looked around.
2.5 The NPCs who looked into the murders, whether they were prospective suitors, relatives, clients (who liked the particular prostitute), city constabulary, or wandering do-gooders (the paladin/inquisitor who asked a few questions, found a few clues, but couldn't figure it out) will have additional information and speculation. If the PCs want, they can track them down.

The important thing is to abandon the linear model of problem solving (the PCs will figure out that the next victim will be the youngest single woman living alone and guard her) and let the PCs follow the clues that seem important to them until they come to the answer. Maybe it takes another murder for them to figure it out. Maybe they figure out he's a cleric of Orcus and track him down because he's the only strong evil aura in the whole city. Maybe they figure out who the next victim is. Maybe the battlemage's familiar talks to an appropriate animal who saw the villain and they identify him that way. But if you allow multiple paths to the solution, PCs are much more likely to succeed than if you arbitrarily decide that there is one path they need to follow and trying anything else will just be banging their heads against a wall. More importantly, it will be them solving the mystery rather than figuring out the right trigger for you to hand it to them.

[Dr TPK]

1. Correct/amend the "no ritual" answer. Retcon it if you must.
2. Introduce some new information. Since there are indecipherable notes, you can just let the players find some more information there: Maybe the name of the person who investigated each murder--if they were investigated. Maybe the details themselves: how murdered, where, anything that was noticed when the old woman looked around.
2.5 The NPCs who looked into the murders, whether they were prospective suitors, relatives, clients (who liked the particular prostitute), city constabulary, or wandering do-gooders (the paladin/inquisitor who asked a few questions, found a few clues, but couldn't figure it out) will have additional information and speculation. If the PCs want, they can track them down.

The important thing is to abandon the linear model of problem solving (the PCs will figure out that the next victim will be the youngest single woman living alone and guard her) and let the PCs follow the clues that seem important to them until they come to the answer. Maybe it takes another murder for them to figure it out. Maybe they figure out he's a cleric of Orcus and track him down because he's the only strong evil aura in the whole city. Maybe they figure out who the next victim is. Maybe the battlemage's familiar talks to an appropriate animal who saw the villain and they identify him that way. But if you allow multiple paths to the solution, PCs are much more likely to succeed than if you arbitrarily decide that there is one path they need to follow and trying anything else will just be banging their heads against a wall. More importantly, it will be them solving the mystery rather than figuring out the right trigger for you to hand it to them.

I will do all these things, but the "There is no ritual" thing doesn't have to be corrected. I have said it only in this thread, not to the PCs. Really. The only thing I can do to retcon is to edit my messages in this thread :-)

The old woman have never left home but I will give them a huge pile of information. I just wanted them to ask for information, but your model is just fine. I will read a massive amount of information to the players, that will do. I mean we are talking suitors, relatives, clients (who liked the particular prostitute), city constabulary, or wandering do-gooders (the paladin/inquisitor who asked a few questions, found a few clues, but couldn't figure it out) will have additional information and speculation etc. etc. This will take a while, but I will offer everyone some coffee before I start with the list. I just need a good generator for NPC names.

[Honest Tiefling]

I just wanted them to ask for information, but your model is just fine. .

Why WOULD they? She's senile. She's an unreliable, time-wasting source of dubious information when people are dying. Why would you expect them to speak with her?

[Dr TPK]

Why WOULD they? She's senile. She's an unreliable, time-wasting source of dubious information when people are dying. Why would you expect them to speak with her?

Because she's their only source of information. I'm not making this easy for my players.

[Platymus Pus]

Because she's their only source of information. I'm not making this easy for my players.

The dead would be more reliable than the source of information you've chosen to convey with to your party.

[Honest Tiefling]

Because she's their only source of information. I'm not making this easy for my players.

If I understand correctly, your current plan is to have the old woman give hints. I strongly urge against this course of action. I think there's a difference between 'difficult' and 'expected to rely on mentally unstable people'. You might waste time for information that the players should logically ignore. They are asking a crazy person for hints, and have no one else to ask about this. At that point, breaking into random homes or assaulting random people might actually be a better idea.


The dead would be more reliable than the source of information you've chosen to convey with to your party.

I agree with this. To my knowledge, dead people don't tend to be insane when speaking to their spirit.

I would instead have her mention the people that the PCs can speak to to get more hints. This saves the time of an info-dump of dubious quality, but can be checked out quickly enough to perhaps warrant it despite the questionable source. Also, you can slip in letters in a more legible handwriting (presumably letters from the people themselves, addressed to her son), from these people adding much-needed veracity to her hints. She's senile, so perhaps a slip of paper in a neat and precise handwriting falls out when she's going through her notes. It's not hers, and not her sons. All it has are the words 'Meet me at [address], but only if you are alone'.

[Dr TPK]

If I understand correctly, your current plan is to have the old woman give hints. I strongly urge against this course of action. I think there's a difference between 'difficult' and 'expected to rely on mentally unstable people'. You might waste time for information that the players should logically ignore. They are asking a crazy person for hints, and have no one else to ask about this. At that point, breaking into random homes or assaulting random people might actually be a better idea.



I agree with this. To my knowledge, dead people don't tend to be insane when speaking to their spirit.

I would instead have her mention the people that the PCs can speak to to get more hints. This saves the time of an info-dump of dubious quality, but can be checked out quickly enough to perhaps warrant it despite the questionable source. Also, you can slip in letters in a more legible handwriting (presumably letters from the people themselves, addressed to her son), from these people adding much-needed veracity to her hints. She's senile, so perhaps a slip of paper in a neat and precise handwriting falls out when she's going through her notes. It's not hers, and not her sons. All it has are the words 'Meet me at [address], but only if you are alone'.

That's ok, I will have an NPC investigator give them all the information on a silver plate as Elder_Basilisk suggested. You can forget about the old woman. It seemed like a good idea at first, ok?

[Elder_Basilisk]

I will do all these things, but the "There is no ritual" thing doesn't have to be corrected. I have said it only in this thread, not to the PCs. Really. The only thing I can do to retcon is to edit my messages in this thread :-)

The old woman have never left home but I will give them a huge pile of information. I just wanted them to ask for information, but your model is just fine. I will read a massive amount of information to the players, that will do. I mean we are talking suitors, relatives, clients (who liked the particular prostitute), city constabulary, or wandering do-gooders (the paladin/inquisitor who asked a few questions, found a few clues, but couldn't figure it out) will have additional information and speculation etc. etc. This will take a while, but I will offer everyone some coffee before I start with the list. I just need a good generator for NPC names.

You can also leave some of those people off the old woman's list and let the players ask neighbors, fellow congregants at the temple where the victim worshipped, her pimp, fellow hookers, etc if she had relatives, suitors, etc. If the players look for the lead, it feels more successful than if it is handed to them. Maybe the old woman only has information about the assigned investigator for all the murders, a suitor for the 1st, a nosy former client for the 3rd, and a wandering do-gooder for the 4th. The rest is up to the PCs.

My point is not to hand a book worth of info to the PCs on a silver platter, but to have all the information, see which clues (and which red herrings) interest the PCs, and let them follow the trail from there. Back in Living Greyhawk days, I wrote a murder/kidnapping mystery adventure for the NMR region and ended up running it four to six times. No two sets of players ever followed the exact same trail to locate the villains. That's how it should be.

[Dr TPK]

You can also leave some of those people off the old woman's list and let the players ask neighbors, fellow congregants at the temple where the victim worshipped, her pimp, fellow hookers, etc if she had relatives, suitors, etc. If the players look for the lead, it feels more successful than if it is handed to them. Maybe the old woman only has information about the assigned investigator for all the murders, a suitor for the 1st, a nosy former client for the 3rd, and a wandering do-gooder for the 4th. The rest is up to the PCs.

My point is not to hand a book worth of info to the PCs on a silver platter, but to have all the information, see which clues (and which red herrings) interest the PCs, and let them follow the trail from there. Back in Living Greyhawk days, I wrote a murder/kidnapping mystery adventure for the NMR region and ended up running it four to six times. No two sets of players ever followed the exact same trail to locate the villains. That's how it should be.

That's too complicated for me.

[atemu1234]

That's too complicated for me.

Alright, do you want help or not?

Everything you've said so far has boiled down to "My players are having trouble figuring out the deliberately difficult murder mystery I've given them, I need advice which I intend to not use because it will make the murder mystery too easy or make me seem railroady."

You've written yourself into a corner, and your ways out are all being denied because we have no way of figuring out what your desired level of complication and ease are. Either take advice when it's given or don't ask for it.

[FocusWolf413]

You seem to be trying to take a shortcut out of this. That's not how the game works. D&D is all about rich details, creative problem solving, and immersion. If you cut corners and take shortcuts, the players will be able to tell and they'll just get frustrated. You've gotten dozens of tips from people who are wonderful roleplayers with years of experience. Listen to them. Shamelessly take their ideas. Just don't cheat your characters out of a good game by saying that it's too much effort for you to try.

[Templarkommando]

What kind of information the detective should have? I was thinking that he knows exactly what the mother knows, but can't make the connection. The NPC investigator is just as lost as the PCs.


The way I would play it, is have the detective focus on some of the key clues. He can't quite put the puzzle together, but he has several pieces. Something is eating at him. He doesn't understand why all the victims are virgins, but he's trying to come up with an explanation for it. Maybe he investigated a streak of murders several years ago that was very similar to this one, but maybe not... just kinda brainstorming here. Or perhaps he's trying to find the significance of the date, or something like that. You don't have to be too heavy handed with it, just kind of put a rock in the shoes of your PCs. Eventually they'll take it out and look at it a little harder.

If you've ever seen the old Columbo TV show - I sort of imagine it this way:

"You know, I'd been wandering why these girls were killed. Was there something about them that attracted the killer? You know... I put a map out of this section of the city/town/whatever, and did you know that all of these murders have happened within a few blocks of each other on the same day of each month? What do you think the reason for that is? But anyway... we can't find anything that these girls have in common? I had the sergeant look into it you know, and the only thing that connects them is their age. They're all relatively young. Could it be a angry boyfriend? It just doesn't fit, or if it does I certainly don't understand it. What could it be about these young ladies that makes them so suitable for this killer?.... Oh, and one more thing, we checked their background history.... this was weird... man, you don't expect to find weird things like this... Did you know we couldn't find that these girls had been in any significant relationships in the last five years?"

Maybe that's too heavy handed, but I hope you get the idea.

[Dr TPK]

Alright, do you want help or not?

Everything you've said so far has boiled down to "My players are having trouble figuring out the deliberately difficult murder mystery I've given them, I need advice which I intend to not use because it will make the murder mystery too easy or make me seem railroady."

You've written yourself into a corner, and your ways out are all being denied because we have no way of figuring out what your desired level of complication and ease are. Either take advice when it's given or don't ask for it.

I disagree. I have read all the advice twice and I see very little concrete. There's a lot of giving some direction, but little step-by-step advice.

I want to know step by step, detail by detail, what I should do.

I don't want vagueness, please. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it.

[Dr TPK]

I've reworked the three clues.

- The murderer always uses a serrated dagger. Those are very rare.
- He has left a footprint in victim's blood. The boot and the size of the foot are very distinctive.
- A highly intelligent and respectable NPC wonders out loud that why haven't there been any witnesses.

If these fail, I will have an NPC tell them that the victims have all been unmarried women who live alone and that this is obviously a protection mission.

How's that? Good? Ok? Needs improvement?

[Dr TPK]

You seem to be trying to take a shortcut out of this. That's not how the game works. D&D is all about rich details, creative problem solving, and immersion. If you cut corners and take shortcuts, the players will be able to tell and they'll just get frustrated. You've gotten dozens of tips from people who are wonderful roleplayers with years of experience. Listen to them. Shamelessly take their ideas. Just don't cheat your characters out of a good game by saying that it's too much effort for you to try.

I'm too busy with my life so I certainly want to cut all the corners I possibly can. I'd simply like to know in very clear and straightforward manner how to make this a great adventure without lots of tedious work.

So I definitely say that everything is too much effort in my life right now. That's why I'm here asking advice.

[Platymus Pus]

distinctive
distinctive, distinctive how?
Maybe you should draw it?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I've reworked the three clues.

- The murderer always uses a serrated dagger. Those are very rare.
- He has left a footprint in victim's blood. The boot and the size of the foot are very distinctive.
- A highly intelligent and respectable NPC wonders out loud that why haven't there been any witnesses.

If these fail, I will have an NPC tell them that the victims have all been unmarried women who live alone and that this is obviously a protection mission.

How's that? Good? Ok? Needs improvement?
You will want options to help them build off these clues. Maybe some knowledgable people who can identify why these things are special. Not sitting waiting to be spoken to of course but people they can find.
Ex: the constable is primarily a detective so he doesn't know the significance of the serrated dagger, but a blacksmith can comment on why someone would want serrations (to inflected messier, more painful wounds; whoever is doing this has clearly no intention of leaving them alive, even by chance). If they follow that path down they may be able to contact a higher ranking cleric about it and he can associate it with evil religions, particularly sacrifices.

[Dr TPK]

distinctive, distinctive how?
Maybe you should draw it?

It's big and the heel is slightly disproportionate. I will draw it. Thanks.

[Dr TPK]

You will want options to help them build off these clues. Maybe some knowledgable people who can identify why these things are special. Not sitting waiting to be spoken to of course but people they can find.
Ex: the constable is primarily a detective so he doesn't know the significance of the serrated dagger, but a blacksmith can comment on why someone would want serrations (to inflected messier, more painful wounds; whoever is doing this has clearly no intention of leaving them alive, even by chance). If they follow that path down they may be able to contact a higher ranking cleric about it and he can associate it with evil religions, particularly sacrifices.

Ok, so I will be ready if they decide to ask things from NPC specialists. Thanks! However, there are no higher level clerics. They are on an island thousands of miles away from big cities. The evil cleric doing the murders IS the resident high level cleric!

[MyrPsychologist]

I've reworked the three clues.

- The murderer always uses a serrated dagger. Those are very rare.
- He has left a footprint in victim's blood. The boot and the size of the foot are very distinctive.
- A highly intelligent and respectable NPC wonders out loud that why haven't there been any witnesses.

If these fail, I will have an NPC tell them that the victims have all been unmarried women who live alone and that this is obviously a protection mission.

How's that? Good? Ok? Needs improvement?

1. Distinctive dagger? Great. Excellent clue here. I can think of lots of ways they can take this piece of information.

2. Footprint? Not so good. Footprint analysis in this era is going to be really primitive. Modern day footprint analysis hinges on the capacity to make molds of the print, conduct trace analysis, and cross reference with detailed databases. None of these actually exist in the setting so they're mostly going to go on "oh. it's a size 9? cool". It being a distinct boot style is a good idea though. I would spell out how it is a popular boot with nobles or civil service members. But be descriptive here. This one will be harder to convey in a meaningful way. I'm not telling you it's bad, i'm just saying to be prepared to work a little harder to adequately describe the evidence in a meaningful way that the players can make conclusions from it.

*edit* You can also take the footprint as the opportunity to further describe the culprit. Maybe it is distinct because it indicates a serious injury. Maybe the injury requires a special boot to be made to provide adequate support for the wearer. This transitions the footprint from merely a size and shape into something that describes much more about the killer.

3. This is a much better nudge than the senile old lady. What do you intend for them to do with this?

we're making progress!

[Ceaon]

Besides more and better clues, I also think the players need context. By which I mean, if you are already "railroading" the players, railroad them subtly and elegantly.

You want the players to create a victim profile. So:
1) Have the person who hired them or some other NPC contact them saying that the date of the next murder is coming up.
2) He/she asks the players for all the information they have right now, so he can cover his ass in front of his superiors.
3) Specifically, he asks about the victims and whether they seem randomly chosen or have something in common.

Then, you want to steer them to the idea that protecting the victim is the easiest route to catch the murderer. So:
1. Have the poor people complain that nobody is looking out for them.
2. Have a coworker of one of the victims show up, enraged that the gaurs isn't guarding every single person in the slums. The players will probably tell them this is impossible, or that their idea was refused, to which he can reply that if they knew the next victim, they'd be able to catch the murderer as well if they protect her.

Besides those, I really like bringing in the daughters as possible safe-fails. If the murderer escapes or whatever, the daughters will have figured it out. They can help the party with information, as they are obviously already close on his trails, and ask them to go easy on him. Or to take him out hard cause he hit them. Or whatever.

[Dr TPK]

3. This is a much better nudge than the senile old lady. What do you intend for them to do with this?

we're making progress!

I have no idea.

I can say that the dagger is a family heirloom that belonged to his great grandfather. It was made about 70 years ago. The murderer hasn't shown it to anyone, not even to his kids.

[Dr TPK]

Besides more and better clues, I also think the players need context. By which I mean, if you are already "railroading" the players, railroad them subtly and elegantly.

You want the players to create a victim profile. So:
1) Have the person who hired them or some other NPC contact them saying that the date of the next murder is coming up.
2) He/she asks the players for all the information they have right now, so he can cover his ass in front of his superiors.
3) Specifically, he asks about the victims and whether they seem randomly chosen or have something in common.

Then, you want to steer them to the idea that protecting the victim is the easiest route to catch the murderer. So:
1. Have the poor people complain that nobody is looking out for them.
2. Have a coworker of one of the victims show up, enraged that the gaurs isn't guarding every single person in the slums. The players will probably tell them this is impossible, or that their idea was refused, to which he can reply that if they knew the next victim, they'd be able to catch the murderer as well if they protect her.

Besides those, I really like bringing in the daughters as possible safe-fails. If the murderer escapes or whatever, the daughters will have figured it out. They can help the party with information, as they are obviously already close on his trails, and ask them to go easy on him. Or to take him out hard cause he hit them. Or whatever.

More clues? But everyone says that 3 is enough.

[MyrPsychologist]

I have no idea.

I can say that the dagger is a family heirloom that belonged to his great grandfather. It was made about 70 years ago. The murderer hasn't shown it to anyone, not even to his kids.

This type of dagger is a great tool for dismissing circumstantial evidence. If it can be directly linked to the killings because of its unique blade type then it would be a lot more difficult for the individual to say that they were just in the area or that someone happened to steal his dagger. I mean, he could still say these things, but they mean a lot less when it's your antique family heirloom that you keep on your person at all times. I like it.

And as for the idea of the party overhearing talk of witnesses. It can be reasonably presumed that the city's guard is at least competent enough to ask if anyone saw anything. If they have found no witnesses and confirm that they have found no witnesses to the party, it could very easily discourage them from looking for witnesses.

I would suggest instead that the officials are discussing that they're looking for a confirmed witness. Maybe some young rogueish type that was spoted in the area and is wanted for questioning/suspicion. Maybe it's a known thief or someone and the guards are having a hard time finding them exactly because they're guards but they know where the thief's normal bar and are discussing when the captain will give the go ahead to head in there and find the person. This way you give your party a bread crumb to follow and can then give them a circumstance where more evidence can be obtained without feeling like you're giving too much away.

[Dr TPK]

Ok, a bad guy witness they need to catch. I like that.

[Elder_Basilisk]

More clues? But everyone says that 3 is enough.

If everyone is saying that, they would be wrong. Look at it this way, if you were on a jury, would these clues be enough to convict? "We think it's him because the murderer used a serrated dagger? Well, yes no-one has ever seen this dude with a serrated dagger, but he's guilty man. Like totally. Oh, and he wears boots. The killer wears boots too. And there were no witnesses. He's totally our guy."

If the players search for and find the dagger, that's another thing, but even knowing that a serrated dagger was used won't let them know where to look for it.

The players need a series of clues that lead down a path.

For example, the serrated dagger leads to researching it. Researching it leads to knowing that it is used in the worship of Orcus. Knowing that leads the PCs to look for strong evil auras and death cults. Doing that, leads them to an important but anonymous figure in the local occult community. Surreptitiously following him, they observe his home, break in while he's at work and find the dagger. Wait, he's the high priest?!?

Or the PCs could get to Orcus through the murders occurring on nights sacred to Orcus. But they still need the dagger to verify that the priest of Orcus actually did it and he's not just an innocent cultist of the death demon (if there's any such thing--he could be guilty of murders, just not these murders). If he is innocent (of these murders), maybe he begs for his life and tells the PCs about his acolyte (or old mentor) who is really guilty in return for being allowed to flee the city with his goods. That gets the PCs to the right place but gives them another dilemma: How do they explain why they suspect the high priest? "Because the cultist of orcus said he's the guy. That evil cultist of death and deception is totally trustworthy. No, you can't talk to him--he left the city, but we should totally believe him," doesn't sound very plausible. Maybe they just have to follow the murderer and catch him in the attempt after all.

Or to use another suggestion, they could (through their superior observation skills) notice that the boot has the faint impression that is the mark of town's premier cobbler. So they ask the cobbler about his clients. The cobbler takes some persuading, but says he makes and resoles boots for a hundred or so wealthy and influential people in the city. So the party starts surreptitously checking alibis. 70 of them alibi out. They additionally rule out another 20 who are too old or frail to physically overcome young women. That leaves 10 more, so they guesstimate the size of their feet and only 3 could fit. Which ones could it be? Hmmm. Looks like they'll need to follow all of them or find some more clues. Maybe the badguy witness you mentioned gave a description that only fits one of them. OK, now we search his house, find the dagger and we're done. Or we follow him on the night of the murders and stop him.

In all of these cases, there are way more than three clues, but no single clue leads the players directly to whodunnit. The players have to recognize the clue, and follow up on it in order to get the next breadcrumb. To make it interesting, there should also be some red herrings: a few clues that don't lead anywhere or which mislead the players. A few go a long way and sooner or later, there should be something to clue the players in that they have the wrong guy, but recognizing false trails is an important part of the mystery adventure.

[Honest Tiefling]

People mention three clues, because there's a well known article titled the 'three clue rule'. It itself recommends at LEAST three, not only three. I understand you have limited time, so I tried to tack on some ideas below.

If you want to cut down on prep time, prepare three clues, and figure out how they could be connected to the murderer's identity. The serrated knife is a bad one, because unless the players break into the correct house they'd have no idea how to connect it. The guy isn't known to have it, he didn't buy it recently, and he's not going to hang the murder weapon above the mantel and invite people over for tea to look at it. How would they figure out that he's the one from that knife?

If you really want to to avoid prep, then have one of the NPC women ask for protection. Roll a d2 (Or flip a coin) to see if the younger or older women asked for help. If the wrong one did, then they hear screaming and might rush over. (200 people is a pretty small district, after all). From this new crime scene, write down three hints, and how they'd catch the killer. For instance:


The bootprint, indicating a man or otherwise tall figure. Allow a good perception/search to determine high quality, indicating a richer individual. This one is a classic in my opinion and was a good idea. The distinct boot also means that it circumvents a lot of issues. The drawing will help tons.
Totally stealing Mr. Psychologist's idea, because it is another good one. With less people out and about, that could be a good time to be a thief, especially if one is male and unlikely to be a victim.
The woman had a dog, because she lived alone and there were murders. Doggy bit the man, and he now has a limp. This could change the scenario from mystery to a chase, so decide if this is a good thing to do. I'd make it simple, in that a search check gives them the right direction (or tracking, if that applies), with a simple constitution score to catch up. The dog might have something in its mouth, even if the murderer took care of fido.


Does that help?

[Dr TPK]

If you really want to to avoid prep, then have one of the NPC women ask for protection. Roll a d2 (Or flip a coin) to see if the younger or older women asked for help. If the wrong one did, then they hear screaming and might rush over. (200 people is a pretty small district, after all). From this new crime scene, write down three hints, and how they'd catch the killer. For instance:


The bootprint, indicating a man or otherwise tall figure. Allow a good perception/search to determine high quality, indicating a richer individual. This one is a classic in my opinion and was a good idea. The distinct boot also means that it circumvents a lot of issues. The drawing will help tons.
Totally stealing Mr. Psychologist's idea, because it is another good one. With less people out and about, that could be a good time to be a thief, especially if one is male and unlikely to be a victim.
The woman had a dog, because she lived alone and there were murders. Doggy bit the man, and he now has a limp. This could change the scenario from mystery to a chase, so decide if this is a good thing to do. I'd make it simple, in that a search check gives them the right direction (or tracking, if that applies), with a simple constitution score to catch up. The dog might have something in its mouth, even if the murderer took care of fido.


Does that help?

Now I have time for this again.

Yes, it sort of help. I will take the footprint advice, that's very good. I will follow Mr Psychologist's advice. The limp makes no sense since he has powerful healing powers.

So here's what I'm going to do:
1. The serrated dagger, which I already covered. You guys liked that, right?
2. If the PCs interview the people from the district (which they haven't done yet), they will hear about a thief who has been seen in the area. In order to catch this thief they will need to interview the people in the local bar. If they manage to persuade the thief to cooperate, he will tell the full details what the murderer looks like.
3. I will have the six women who live alone ask for protection. If the PCs choose a wrong one, they will hear the screams at night and find more clues from the murder scene.

Ok?

[Chester]

I can't figure out what that lead might be. Really, it's hard.

A valid option is to be on the lookout for clever ideas that the PCs HAVE come up with. Adjust your mystery to the solutions proposed by your PCs.

[Dr TPK]

A valid option is to be on the lookout for clever ideas that the PCs HAVE come up with. Adjust your mystery to the solutions proposed by your PCs.

All right, but if they don't have any, is my list good enough?

I have read and read the messages in this thread a few times and I see very little substantial help.

Just to make it a little bit clearer:
At this area, people don't speak Common. It's impossible to interview basically anyone. It's also a fairly primitive place, so there are no cobblers or anything like this. It's a tribal region. They can just talk with the detective's mom and with a few selected people.

[Dr TPK]

then they hear screaming and might rush over.


I was thinking about this, but the murderer uses Silence spell. It's impossible to do this.

[Dr TPK]

Furthermore, I have decided that the age range of the victims has been from 17 to 21. If the players ask these questions:
"Why haven't there been any witnesses?"
Answer: "The victims have all lived alone."
"Ok. What have been their ages?"
Answer: "17 to 21."
"All right. So they have been single young women. How many are there?"
Answer: "Three."
"Ok, let's meet them."
(Two of those are prostitutes, one is orphan, whose father died two weeks ago and now she lives alone without a clue what to do.)
"Have any of the women been prostitutes?"
Answer: "None."
"OK, let's protect this girl."
And it's the right girl.

Can anyone in their right mind tell that this is too hard? Seriously?

Edit: And since this "murder mystery" (protection mission) is hard, then I will give them lots of XP for it. Why should I give them lots of XP if it's easy?

[Honest Tiefling]

Can anyone in their right mind tell that this is too hard? Seriously?

Yes. First, they make the jump from the girls being 17-21 to them being virgins. Why would the virginity aspect be important, and why would they assume that these girls are virgins because of that age range? Why would this be their first impulse, and how are they supposed to get to this logical conclusion?

[Amphetryon]

Furthermore, I have decided that the age range of the victims has been from 17 to 21. If the players ask these questions:
"Why haven't there been any witnesses?"
Answer: "The victims have all lived alone."
"Ok. What have been their ages?"
Answer: "17 to 21."
"All right. So they have been single young women. How many are there?"
Answer: "Three."
"Ok, let's meet them."
(Two of those are prostitutes, one is orphan, whose father died two weeks ago and now she lives alone without a clue what to do.)
"Have any of the women been prostitutes?"
Answer: "None."
"OK, let's protect this girl."
And it's the right girl.

Can anyone in their right mind tell that this is too hard? Seriously?

Edit: And since this "murder mystery" (protection mission) is hard, then I will give them lots of XP for it. Why should I give them lots of XP if it's easy?
The part I highlighted is, as always, the problem with this sort of murder mystery in 3.X; progress appears predicated on Players guessing the right questions to ask.

[Dr TPK]

Yes. First, they make the jump from the girls being 17-21 to them being virgins. Why would the virginity aspect be important, and why would they assume that these girls are virgins because of that age range? Why would this be their first impulse, and how are they supposed to get to this logical conclusion?

"Are there any witnesses?" This is a very basic question and it's ok to assume that everyone and their neighbour will ask this. Really, I actually think like this. As they ask it and find out that "No, there aren't any", they should ask why. This why it should be evident to concentrate why all the victims living alone.

All the victims lived alone because they were recently moved out of their parents' house to live alone for different various reason, or they were recently orphaned, but this links them all: something had very recently happened that had made them live alone. There only one girl in that district who fits that description.

[Dr TPK]

Granted, if it's hard, then I will give lots of XP for solving it. What CR would be sufficient for this mystery?

[Honest Tiefling]

"Are there any witnesses?" This is a very basic question and it's ok to assume that everyone and their neighbour will ask this. Really, I actually think like this. As they ask it and find out that "No, there aren't any", they should ask why. This why it should be evident to concentrate why all the victims living alone.

All the victims lived alone because they were recently moved out of their parents' house to live alone for different various reason, or they were recently orphaned, but this links them all: something had very recently happened that had made them live alone. There only one girl in that district who fits that description.

I didn't ask about witnesses. I asked why the PCs would jump to the conclusion that women living on their own would be virgins, especially of this age range, and why this would be important.

Given that there is no actual way to solve this (it involves a leap of faith that has no logical basis for the PCs), I would make it a very high CR quest line. Through you should not discount the possibility of the PCs giving up on these people, or simply kidnapping all women, throwing them into a building and guarding that instead. Or protecting the one that pays them, regardless of if it is the right choice or not.

[AtlasSniperman]

"Are there any witnesses?" This is a very basic question and it's ok to assume that everyone and their neighbour will ask this. Really, I actually think like this. As they ask it and find out that "No, there aren't any", they should ask why. This why it should be evident to concentrate why all the victims living alone.

All the victims lived alone because they were recently moved out of their parents' house to live alone for different various reason, or they were recently orphaned, but this links them all: something had very recently happened that had made them live alone. There only one girl in that district who fits that description.

The highlighted point here is your problem. That is a specific thought process that while you take it, the players may not.
"Why were they living alone?"
"They recently moved out of home"
This can then lead to questions of them being young more logically. But its also a good idea to come up wuth other questions they might ask. E.g.

"Is there anything special about each victims house?"
"They all had only one occupant"

"Is there anyone who can speak with dead for us?"
--might be a good way to introduce your Cleric.

There are probably more ideas, think about questions they alreadt asked. And remember they should logucally be able to ask people other than the mother. Also try to think of the questions not as specific questions but as tgemes. A question about the girls could result in "they were in school together" or "they were all indipendant young ladies" or "they weren't very popular with the boys".

[Dr TPK]

Ok, I ran the mystery and here's what happened. Feel free to comment/critique.

The PCs actually put a lot of faith in the senile old woman. The went to talk with her and the PCs made the following questions:
"Did the victims visit the same places?" A: "No, that is for sure."
"What was the murder weapon?" A: "Some sort of serrated small-sized blade, very rare."
"What is religious significance of the day?" A: No one knew, and the PCs failed in their rolls.
"Is there any pattern in the murder scenes?" A: "No."

The interviewed all the weaponsmiths of the area, but no one had seen that kind of blade.

The PCs went to see the area, and saw lots of prostitutes and thugs. The spread out and twenty thugs attacked a lone PC, but 7 of them died and the rest escaped.

At night, the PCs stood in guard. They were still spread out, but no one dared to screw with them anymore.

Then the murderer came and one of the PCs saw him and felt that he was suspicious. He noticed that the suspicious guy had boots, which was very rare, and he noticed lots of details about him. Then he suddenly started to follow him, which was extremely obvious: A guy is standing and when you walk by, he start following you. The PC is question was the only white guy in the area, and a partly dragon, so he was very noticeable. The murderer noticed that he was followed and decided to go back to the rich people's district. The PC followed him for a little while and then went back to report others.

Later on the murderer and the PC met again. The murderer put his hand in his pocket, considering to kill the PC, but he changed his mind and walked away. The PC went to report to others again... Actually I don't remember that well what he did, but the murderer was free to leave. There was no murder that evening.

The End.

[Solophoenix]

"Is there any pattern in the murder scenes?" A: "No."

The interviewed all the weaponsmiths of the area, but no one had seen that kind of blade.


Firstly, what about the murder scenes *doesn't* indicate a pattern? They victims were all similar in a number of ways, they were all killed with the same type of weapon, and there was never a scrap of evidence. There are a whole bunch of patterns here. These patterns are about the only thing you gave the PCs to go on before you started this thread.

Secondly, with the dagger, you turned an awesome clue into a dead end. I don't agree with that. Sure maybe none of the local weaponsmiths had seen one before, but maybe one of them could have read about daggers like that, or perhaps their master once mentioned something his master had said. Give your PCs something. If nothing else, have a weaponsmith direct them to someone who could give them some information on it.

[Chester]

3. I will have the six women who live alone ask for protection. If the PCs choose a wrong one, they will hear the screams at night and find more clues from the murder scene.

Ok?

Or just have the murderer show up for whichever person the PC's choose.