Jessica Jones (Netflix Nov. 20)

[Kitten Champion]

So, we're about a month away from the release of Marvel's next Netflix exclusive, Jessica Jones. They've released a few (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gax3tMYU4I) small (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi2hbejO75s)teasers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ3s178GW0Q) thus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw7lAFlCSlY) far (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKecSNhRv8). However, this is the first trailer --


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWHUjuJ8zxE

Some things I expected, I never really questioned Krysten Ritter in the title role, and nothing I've seen has made me to. I'd be surprised if the voice-over narration in the trailer isn't used more prolifically given Jones' is pretty firmly noir detective fiction and I think the show will find it hard to pass that staple up. I think the sexual violence aspect in her story line will be more suggested to, though that's just basing on Daredevil being dark but not that dark despite the comics.

Something I was curious about was how they'll adapt Jessica Jones' comic backstory to this universe -- a fallen Silver Age hero who winds up a bitter private investigator doesn't gel with the MCU history exactly. This seems to suggest she tried to do something with her abilities and wound up getting dragged through crap for her trouble, rather than being a hasbeen she was a neverwas. If that's true, it would be interesting to see what reaction she has to the Avengers' widespread popularity.

The other thing is what they intend to do with Tennant's Kilgrave. When he was announced for the role I thought it was pretty cool, noted actor who I like playing a rather awful supervillain significant in the Jessica Jones mythos, but I was thinking more in terms of Arrow/Flash. In the wake of Daredevil's Kingpin however, I wonder just how big a role he'll actually have. I can't see them replicating that here, because, well, he seems like a complete monster from the get-go -- this spectre which haunts Jones and ruined her life prior to events of the series. Rather, if they can play their cards right, they might actually have something which really hasn't existed in the MCU... a terrifying villain. I think overexposure could jeopardize that, but with mind control abilities he can be present without actually being there through manipulation of others into various plots.

I've heard complaints that they're not actually making him purple, but rather he seems to release some kind of purple flash in the course of his abilities. I think it might be hard to take him seriously if he were literally purple, though there's always going to be this gap of what people's suspension of disbelief is and I could go either way. Some have suggested he is purple, and simple chooses not to be seen that way for his own convenience, which would be a fine way around having to wear a make-up job when it could be problematic for drama.

[Green Nova]

I know nothing about Jessica Jones but I'm looking forward to learning as I watch this show. I adore Tennant and can't wait to see him in the role of a villain. Should be interesting to see.

[MLai]

The other thing is what they intend to do with Tennant's Kilgrave. When he was announced for the role I thought it was pretty cool, noted actor who I like playing a rather awful supervillain significant in the Jessica Jones mythos, but I was thinking more in terms of Arrow/Flash. In the wake of Daredevil's Kingpin however, I wonder just how big a role he'll actually have. I can't see them replicating that here, because, well, he seems like a complete monster from the get-go -- this spectre which haunts Jones and ruined her life prior to events of the series. Rather, if they can play their cards right, they might actually have something which really hasn't existed in the MCU... a terrifying villain. I think overexposure could jeopardize that, but with mind control abilities he can be present without actually being there through manipulation of others into various plots.
Based on the trailer, I think they're going for a superhero version of Will Graham vs Hannibal Lecter. Which would be very cool if played right, I'll admit.

[Kitten Champion]

Based on the trailer, I think they're going for a superhero version of Will Graham vs Hannibal Lecter. Which would be very cool if played right, I'll admit.

That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to try and make him sympathetic, I want him to be the stuff of nightmares. Mind control is bloody terrifying to begin with - especially when used so casually like in the trailer - and utilized by a possessive sociopath it has an added chill-factor to it.

On another note, I'm wondering if Kilgrave's reappearance will be tied to Hydra's insurgency freeing SHIELD's "enhanced" prisoners from super-jail. It would be consistent with how Daredevil approached continuity with the MCU, in that the story began there with Fisk and co's criminal syndicate pocketing the reconstruction money from the Chitauri invasion which situates all the events thereafter. Kilgrave having been in SHIELD custody would have been a reasonable justification for his absence and sudden return, and be a light-touch allusion to the events of AoS and Winter Soldier.

[Hopeless]

That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to try and make him sympathetic, I want him to be the stuff of nightmares. Mind control is bloody terrifying to begin with - especially when used so casually like in the trailer - and utilized by a possessive sociopath it has an added chill-factor to it.

On another note, I'm wondering if Kilgrave's reappearance will be tied to Hydra's insurgency freeing SHIELD's "enhanced" prisoners from super-jail. It would be consistent with how Daredevil approached continuity with the MCU, in that the story began there with Fisk and co's criminal syndicate pocketing the reconstruction money from the Chitauri invasion which situates all the events thereafter. Kilgrave having been in SHIELD custody would have been a reasonable justification for his absence and sudden return, and be a light-touch allusion to the events of AoS and Winter Soldier.

That would actually be an interesting idea but I can't see Hydra letting someone like Kilgrave walk around free or alive for that matter if they knew what he could do.

Now if they had him been under the control of a certain very late mentor of Grant Ward and that mentor's death allowed him the means to escape then that might work.

Still this would be worth a cameo for someone from Agents of Shield even if they use Andrew because Jessica would need a decent psychiatrist to get over her previous encounter with Kilgrave so maybe throw in she tries to call him but he's unavailable... (see season 3 of Agents of Shield to find out why!:smalleek:) now that would be a nice easter egg...

[Yora]

Is this a new superhero or does she have a superhero name I might have heard of before?

[Kitten Champion]

Is this a new superhero or does she have a superhero name I might have heard of before?

She's not a new character - but somewhat obscure and relatively recent - so it's not surprising you'd not know her.

Jessica Jones was from a early 2000's series by Brian Michael Bendis called "Alias", as part of the more adult-oriented MAX line Marvel was producing that ignored the Comics Code and had a mature content warning on them.

The series essentially retcons Jessica Jones into Marvel history as the superhero Jewel, as well as giving her any number of tenuous connections to established Marvel characters - she attended classes along with Peter Parker, her father worked for Tony Stark, etc. - but the story itself is set well after she abandoned her superhero identity and life to become simply Jessica Jones, a private investigator who works cases generally surrounding the superhuman community. She leaves the life because Zebediah Killgrave, a supervillain called the Purple Man, used his mind control abilities to render her his thrall for months and pretty much lost any real sense of idealism in the process.

The only other thing really worth mentioning is that over the course of the series she starts a romantic relationship with Luke Cage, who is also getting his own Netflix series, and she has since married and had a child with him. Making them one of the stronger canonical relationships in Marvel Comics.

[Eldan]

Apparently, Power Woman, according to wiki. Her main comic series is Alias.

[MLai]

Are we talking about Alias as in that TV show Alias?

[Hopeless]

Are we talking about Alias as in that TV show Alias?

No I believe she named her detective agency that.

Unless I'm way behind (which is possible as I don't read any comics at the present) she isn't living a double life and her father is secretly aware she's working for the same agency as he is...

Wouldn't ACTU or whatever they're called be hunting Luke giving their dislike of outlawed superhumans?:smallsmile:

[locke411]

This will definitely be one of the darker themed shows out there, especially for comic book media. It rates up there with Ms. Marvel and Marcus with the implied assault/torture.

[Havelocke]

Being more obscure I wonder if they will go the route of Hank Pym from Ant-Man. He was a "myth" a "legend" that normal people had no idea about. He worked behind the scenes with the original wasp (I promise no spoilers) but were very hush hush. Jessica Jone's hero career might be the same way. Keep it quiet, Heroes don't exist until Iron Man blew the lid off of all that in his first movie. I believe that Killgrave will be separate from Hydra. They will NOT want him involved since he could easily sway their leadership. I think he is more of a longer using his pawns to gain power, wealth, whatever the heck he wants. Mind control is a form of rape, and this is a very dark subject matter to pull up in a series. To be controlled over an extended period of time like that is traumatizing to the extreme, this will be a difficult show to watch since the main character is tortured to that extent. Worth keeping an eye on it.

[Legato Endless]

I think the sexual violence aspect in her story line will be more suggested to, though that's just basing on Daredevil being dark but not that dark despite the comics.

That's what I would assume. This is still an MCU tie in, however far in orbit. Being...explicit with that kind of subject matter might not work out well term considering the audience is so broad now.


I've heard complaints that they're not actually making him purple, but rather he seems to release some kind of purple flash in the course of his abilities.

Because of course, that's such an important aspect to his character. :smallsigh:

So apparently Hellcat of all people is going to be in this series. I'm not sure if that's going anyway besides ending up as Jessica's replacement best friend, but we'll see.

[Kitten Champion]

Being more obscure I wonder if they will go the route of Hank Pym from Ant-Man. He was a "myth" a "legend" that normal people had no idea about. He worked behind the scenes with the original wasp (I promise no spoilers) but were very hush hush. Jessica Jone's hero career might be the same way. Keep it quiet, Heroes don't exist until Iron Man blew the lid off of all that in his first movie. I believe that Killgrave will be separate from Hydra. They will NOT want him involved since he could easily sway their leadership. I think he is more of a longer using his pawns to gain power, wealth, whatever the heck he wants. Mind control is a form of rape, and this is a very dark subject matter to pull up in a series. To be controlled over an extended period of time like that is traumatizing to the extreme, this will be a difficult show to watch since the main character is tortured to that extent. Worth keeping an eye on it.

I don't think Killgrave will have anything to do with Hydra directly, if only because Marvel wants to up the gritty-factor and Hydra is pretty kooky despite its repaint. More, I think he escaped in the chaos of SHIELD's collapse after having been stuffed in a very dark place by them, to explain why he disappeared from her life and how he could come back within the continuity of the universe.


That's what I would assume. This is still an MCU tie in, however far in orbit. Being...explicit with that kind of subject matter might not work out well term considering the audience is so broad now.


As Havelocke said, the mind control in itself is already a pretty ghastly violation of a person. I don't believe Jessica was actually raped in the sexual sense in the comics anyways, though it's been a while since I've read Alias. I don't think things will go further than Daredevil brought them to, anyways.



So apparently Hellcat of all people is going to be in this series. I'm not sure if that's going anyway besides ending up as Jessica's replacement best friend, but we'll see.

Probably, they've suggested Carol Danvers would be in it, but they're clearly having issues casting her. I honestly know next to nothing about Hellcat beyond she was in She-Hulk in a pretty enjoyable role. She's getting her own comic series though, likely because of this.

I wonder if her casting was in part because they were looking for a Carol Danvers and her casting morphed into this. Just a thought, as Rachael Taylor does look the part.

[thorgrim29]

They really should cast Katheryn Winnick (or anyone else really at this point) as Captain Marvel and be done with it, it's starting to be a little ridiculous that she isn't cast with her movie supposed to be in what, a year?

Anyway, back on track, I know nothing about this character and haven't watched Daredevil yet (been meaning to but there a just so damn many seasons of Supernatural) so I'm coming at this fresh but it looks cool. The traumatized bad-ass character can be interesting or it can be cringy, let's hope they manage to pull the former off. Other than that, Tennant is good but I don't think I've ever seen him play a bad guy, but judging from the trailer I'm hopeful. Finally I'm assuming generic looking bald black guy with short beard is Luke Cage, nothing much to say about him yet.

[Havelocke]

I agree with Kitten Champion, Jessica Jones was not raped in a sexual sense, but in terms of having her mind violated by Killgrave over an extended period of time is truly horrific. It reminds me of the three women who were held against their will for years and eventually escaped. Jessica Jones is damaged, and watching her endure and continue to fight the good fight will make for some interesting television. I am not that familiar with the character of Hellcat, but every hero needs some sort of balance. Not necessarily a sidekick per se, but balance. Hydra is being rebuilt in SHIELD, but they are pretty much done for now. We have not seen the last of AIM either despite the end of Iron Man 3. Organized Crime groups like the Maggia may make an appearance since Kingpin and his organization makes an excellent villain in Daredevil. This may be a springboard for more of the "street level" heroes that Marvel is known for. Luke Cage will get his own show and I am sure Iron Fist will make an appearance.

[TheEmerged]

They really should cast Katheryn Winnick (or anyone else really at this point) as Captain Marvel and be done with it, it's starting to be a little ridiculous that she isn't cast with her movie supposed to be in what, a year?

The following is 60% scuttlebutt, it's just scuttlebutt from a source I tend to trust. The rest of you should take this no more seriously than you would ordinarily take info from an anonymous source.

Allegedly it's a situation very similar to what happened to Fantastic Four where Marvel (Sony in the case of FF) has one person they *really* want for the role, and the production people either really *don't* want her or have someone else in mind.

A different version I've heard from another source I don't trust as much says it's a simple diva thing - Marvel has someone they *really* want, and the actress is smart enough that she's figured that out and is holding out for more money\controlling interest\etc.

[Kitten Champion]

They really should cast Katheryn Winnick (or anyone else really at this point) as Captain Marvel and be done with it, it's starting to be a little ridiculous that she isn't cast with her movie supposed to be in what, a year?

Anyway, back on track, I know nothing about this character and haven't watched Daredevil yet (been meaning to but there a just so damn many seasons of Supernatural) so I'm coming at this fresh but it looks cool. The traumatized bad-ass character can be interesting or it can be cringy, let's hope they manage to pull the former off. Other than that, Tennant is good but I don't think I've ever seen him play a bad guy, but judging from the trailer I'm hopeful. Finally I'm assuming generic looking bald black guy with short beard is Luke Cage, nothing much to say about him yet.

Tennant had a brief role as Barty Crouch Jr. at the end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, though I don't think that anything like how he's going to play Killgrave... probably.


As to Carol Danvers, they've moved her movie back twice to accommodate other films they've since picked up, so about two years before they actually need to start production. Based on what I've heard - Marvel, Marvel Studios, and Disney have different perspectives on the MCU going forward. Disney and Kevin Feige have basically wrested control over the production and direction of the films save the ones already made or mid-production. It's been implied - though how much of this is true I can't say - that Marvel proper and they had differing ideas on Captain Marvel, with Marvel's CEO Perlmutter supposedly being disinclined to supporting female superhero films in the first place out of fear of another Catwoman or Elektra, and there apparently was some disagreement about Carol's casting because Marvel wanted to hire a less expensive actor than Feige and company.

Basically -- I think Captain Marvel was a project they felt roped into due to public reaction, but part of Marvel at the time of its announcement wasn't really committed to expending all that much on it, which caused pre-production conflict. Now that that's cleared up reportedly, they can negotiate with actors they want without being tied in knots.

[Carl]

I've heard, emphasis on heard, that Captain Marvel is supposed to be another civil war movie cameo, and that that's why she isn't showing up here. Also note Civil War's Peter Parker is confirmed as still in high school so it's unlikely the MCU Jessica and MCU parker have any connection whatsoever.

As for her past superheroing, remember that in addition to hank pym we've had romanov and barton running around for ages and based on agent carter both the russians and shield have had similar individuals since the 40's. It isn't so much there haven't been any heroes around, as they've managed to stay off the grid from a publicity PoV.

[TheEmerged]

There's also the matter of SHIELD's Index and existing superpowered people in jail (From AoS).

[BRC]

I've heard, emphasis on heard, that Captain Marvel is supposed to be another civil war movie cameo, and that that's why she isn't showing up here. Also note Civil War's Peter Parker is confirmed as still in high school so it's unlikely the MCU Jessica and MCU parker have any connection whatsoever.

As for her past superheroing, remember that in addition to hank pym we've had romanov and barton running around for ages and based on agent carter both the russians and shield have had similar individuals since the 40's. It isn't so much there haven't been any heroes around, as they've managed to stay off the grid from a publicity PoV.
There is a big difference between superpowered secret agents and costumed vigilantes fighting crime, and Comic-Book Jessica Jones really only works as a subversion of the idealism inherent in the latter. Especially since, IIRC, part of her backstory is that there were so many costumed superheroes running around New York, that Jewel never really made much of a splash.


Although I suppose the Legacy of Captain America is a thing, as is the Battle of New York.

If she got her powers after the Battle of New York, and inspired by the Avengers, threw herself into superheroing, only to have her encounter with Killgrave before she could really do very much, which would explain why nobody has heard of her.

As far as the Captain Marvel debate goes


With the way they keep pushing back the movie (It's what, 4 years away now?) as they get a hold of new franchises/decide to make sequels, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply don't want to cast the role yet, or if actresses don't want to lock themselves into a Marvel contract now when they have no idea what they would be able to get in three years.

[Hybridartifacts]

I am curious to see how the series is. I read a lot of Marvel in the past before her character seems to have been created and have been getting back into it, largely because of the films. So she is not a character I am familiar with - maybe thats a plus?

Really looking forward to Iron Fist and Luke Cage but I so wish they were doing Shang Chi!

[MLai]

I'm looking forward to Kilgrave. I'm sick of Marvel/ DC superheroes and I hope he mind****s over every single one of them who appears in the show.
That reminds me I gotta get back to watching Hannibal.

[lord_khaine]

I'm looking forward to Kilgrave. I'm sick of Marvel/ DC superheroes and I hope he mind****s over every single one of them who appears in the show.
That reminds me I gotta get back to watching Hannibal.

Oh yeah, because a person whose power directly have failed against an unusual metabolism or those especially strong of will is certainly not going to get busted rather swiftly taking on every singel Marvel/DC hero. :smallamused:

[Eldan]

Why is it that all the Marvel heroes have the same boring powers (some form of fast movement, usually flight, some kind of punching or shooting), while all the interesting powers are reserved for villains? Except maybe Ant-Man, but his movie sucked.

[BRC]

Why is it that all the Marvel heroes have the same boring powers (some form of fast movement, usually flight, some kind of punching or shooting), while all the interesting powers are reserved for villains? Except maybe Ant-Man, but his movie sucked.
A few reasons.

1: The more "Interesting" powers can define a story, which, in turn, can make a Comic Book's story seem too similar. Consider Kilgrave, he mind-controls people.
If Kilgrave was the hero, every story would center around mind control. Rather than being part of a rotating cast of villains (in comics anyway), which can tell lots of different stories, rather than just "This Issue! Kilgrave Mind Controls Somebody!" every month.
Punching and/or shooting don't define a book to the same degree.


2: What the audience is conditioned to accept as Heroic. Punching and shooting really boils down to "Being Good at Fights", which is part of a heroic tradition going back to Gilgamesh. Culturally speaking, we're ready to accept that the person who is good at fights can be the hero who comes to save the day. A straightforward triumph of martial virtue. Other more traditionally villainous powers are not as palatable for Heroes. This is part of the same reason the Federation does not use Cloaking in Star Trek, the creators felt it was not heroic enough for their shiny space utopia.

3: There are a LOT of villains. For every Villain with an interesting power, there are five with some variation on "Being Good at Fights".

[Eldan]

Sure there's a lot of bruiser vilains too. Actually, looking at the movies, we seem to have villains that are evil versions of the main character (Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2, Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Ant-Man), control armies of some kind of mook (Captain America, Thor 2) or both (Winter Soldier, Avengers 2.)

There's really only a few exceptions. Iron Man 3 had the budget human torch and there's of course Loki.

[BRC]

Sure there's a lot of bruiser vilains too. Actually, looking at the movies, we seem to have villains that are evil versions of the main character (Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2, Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Ant-Man), control armies of some kind of mook (Captain America, Thor 2) or both (Winter Soldier, Avengers 2.)

There's really only a few exceptions. Iron Man 3 had the budget human torch and there's of course Loki.

Budget Human Torch can be seen as an evil version of Tony, only modifying biology instead of creating armor.

I suppose there is another inversion going on. Tony Stark is trying to use weapons technology for non-millitary means (like using Arc Reactors for clean power generation), even as he goes about building more and more superweapons.

Killian took medical technology, and turned it into a weapon.

Also, The Red Skull is another "Evil Version of the Hero". Schmidt was turned into the Red Skull by an early version of the serum that turned Stark into Captain America. The difference is, Schmidt was evil, so the Serum made him a total monster. Steve was a good man, so the serum made him a Hero.

[Kitten Champion]

Meh, powers don't mean anything. The MCU's best villain is Kingpin who's just a rather large man, and DC's best villain was the Joker and he's just - presumably - quite smart.

The reason I'm looking forward to Killgrave isn't because mind control is some inventive ability, but because the comic was willing to explore the sheer horror of it to a degree you typically didn't see before, it gave more depth to the protagonist by dealing with it, and was overall tied into a larger theme with real-world parallels.

[lord_khaine]

Sure there's a lot of bruiser vilains too. Actually, looking at the movies, we seem to have villains that are evil versions of the main character (Iron Man 1, Iron Man 2, Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Ant-Man), control armies of some kind of mook (Captain America, Thor 2) or both (Winter Soldier, Avengers 2.)

And i cant really explain to a sufficient degree how entirely sick i am of this, i find it extremely boring when what we mainly get is mirror matches between the same set of powers, but for some annoying reason its like the people at hollywood dont think we can handle more than one source of super powers at the time :smallannoyed:

(psst.. also.. its Steve who got the serum, not stark)

[Kitten Champion]

And i cant really explain to a sufficient degree how entirely sick i am of this, i find it extremely boring when what we mainly get is mirror matches between the same set of powers, but for some annoying reason its like the people at hollywood dont think we can handle more than one source of super powers at the time :smallannoyed:

(psst.. also.. its Steve who got the serum, not stark)

I don't think the issue is they believe we can't handle it, superpowers are something we can easily suspend our disbelief for when going to a superhero movie. It's just convenient for a movie-length script. The villain is usually secondary in significance - unless it's a Batman movie - so it's understandable why they'd want to invest less time in their development, by having the same origin they can streamline the script considerably, provide a worthy foe for the hero (as they share the same abilities it's the other qualities which become significant), and inform the audience of what the villain can do without having to show it directly (because you've presumably already had scenes showing the hero in action, we can simply carry that understanding onto the villain).

It makes a great deal of sense from the perspective of a screenwriter, who simply don't have the time a comic book does.

[MLai]

Oh yeah, because a person whose power directly have failed against an unusual metabolism or those especially strong of will is certainly not going to get busted rather swiftly taking on every singel Marvel/DC hero. :smallamused:
Hey no spoilers! I don't read them damn filthy comics.
Seems like the series will take narrative liberties the same way Daredevil did. I'm predicting the TV Kilgrave will be much scarier than whatever weaksauce the comics had, as you described.

[Eldan]

Not sure that's necessary. He'd be busted by the movie heroes. But against the tv series heroes, who don't have supermetabolism or whatever, he's damn scary.

[huttj509]

It makes a great deal of sense from the perspective of a screenwriter, who simply don't have the time a comic book does.

It also is affected by frequently using the villain to reflect something about the hero, so either you have evil opposite (you're order, I'm chaos) or evil alternate (we're not so different, you and I). Using powers to emphasize this is a frequently used highlighter.

[Clertar]

It also is affected by frequently using the villain to reflect something about the hero, so either you have evil opposite (you're order, I'm chaos) or evil alternate (we're not so different, you and I). Using powers to emphasize this is a frequently used highlighter.

Also, when you have the props and CGI for the heroe's powers, it's cheaper to just use the same for the villain :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Hey no spoilers! I don't read them damn filthy comics.
Seems like the series will take narrative liberties the same way Daredevil did. I'm predicting the TV Kilgrave will be much scarier than whatever weaksauce the comics had, as you described.

Its hardly a spoiler when it happens in another medium.

But even then i predict his main advantage here would be not being purple and easily identified.
Because as soon as someone knowns how he looks then all it takes is a guy with a gun :smallamused:

[Clertar]

Second trailer is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3UYWK2jeX0

It looks good. I'm actually really excited, after Daredevil gave us a chance to see a superhero series that doesn't feel like we're watching Xena...

[MLai]

It looks good. I'm actually really excited, after Daredevil gave us a chance to see a superhero series that doesn't feel like we're watching Xena...
It doesn't remind me of Xena, but it does remind me of later seasons of Buffy and Angel. Except with less cheese, more down-to-earth, and more budget.

[Hopeless]

Have to admit I'm liking what I'm seeing here!:smallamused:

If I recall properly the only person whose demonstrated to be outright immune to the Purple Man's power is Daredevil though I'm not sure if thats because he's blind or his senses are so much more acute that he's able to detect and resist the Purple Man's influence?

Unless the Hulk is really, really mad the only Avenger currently from the MCU who should be immune is the Vision although Wanda might defy that and Stark if warned could have his armour sealed up with him safely outside of the Purple Man's reach thats pretty much it even Wonder Man was only immune because he was asleep inside a Daredevil the Movie style sealed sleeping cubicle (I'm not kidding although I thought they killed Kilgrave off in that series which had him being the Molly inside a Dr Doom designed machine ala Heroes Reborn).

So I'm assuming Kilgrave used Jessica as his bodyguard and whilst mentally tortured her didn't physically on the grounds he would go splat if he tried!:smalleek:

Netflix is sounding more and more something I really want to pick up!:smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

If I recall properly the only person whose demonstrated to be outright immune to the Purple Man's power is Daredevil though I'm not sure if thats because he's blind or his senses are so much more acute that he's able to detect and resist the Purple Man's influence?

According to the wiki both strenght of will or inhuman physiology would let you resist the pheromones the purple man uses to control people, so the entire team of Avengers might be in the clear.
Since the purple mans powers were boosted the time that he controled the majority of the Avengers.


So I'm assuming Kilgrave used Jessica as his bodyguard and whilst mentally tortured her didn't physically on the grounds he would go splat if he tried!

Why would he when it seems pretty clear he can control Jessica?

[MLai]

According to the wiki both strenght of will or inhuman physiology would let you resist the pheromones the purple man uses to control people, so the entire team of Avengers might be in the clear.
Since the purple mans powers were boosted the time that he controled the majority of the Avengers.
What? He's not psychic, but uses BO to control ppl? Ewww.
That makes him terribly easy to beat once somebody knows his secret.
http://kastorskorner.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/wpid-fcc-sandman.jpg

[Legato Endless]

...Stark if warned could have his armour sealed up with him safely outside of the Purple Man's reach...

Isn't Stark's armor just sealed off automatically? How does he survive space or survive atmospheric freezing/reentry if a bunch of pheromones can get inside?

[Hopeless]

Would be interesting to see how long Kilgrave can control Stark once he seals his suit and uses full life support but since Kilgrave won't be in outer space it does require Stark to either have early warning or something else is happening requiring him to seal his suit for that to apply.

I wonder does this mean he heads for Jessica because someone is threatening him he can't control?

[lord_khaine]

What? He's not psychic, but uses BO to control ppl? Ewww.
That makes him terribly easy to beat once somebody knows his secret.

My bad, its not directly pheromones, but various psychoactive chemicals that his skin produces. And those compounds can be absorbed though the skin.
But add a wetsuit to that mask and you should be safe.


Isn't Stark's armor just sealed off automatically? How does he survive space or survive atmospheric freezing/reentry if a bunch of pheromones can get inside?

He doesnt have room for an air supply large enough to consistently run on it.



I wonder does this mean he heads for Jessica because someone is threatening him he can't control?

The trailer kinda hints to him just being obsessed with her in general.

[themaque]

I'm honestly psyched about seeing David Tennant being witty, charming, charismatic, and then being super evil while maintaining those traits.

[Eldritch Knight]

All Hail David Tennant.

While he was incredible as The Doctor, he is just as good as Kilgrave...

[Kitten Champion]

I've just finished the second episode, gonna take a break.

Hard discussing a series which has ostensibly just begun and concluded already, other than to say I'm really enjoying what I've seen so far.

Kilgrave, just as a presence - an idea - is suitably terrifying.

[BWR]

So far so very good. Much better than Daredevil, mostly because Jones is actually interesting to watch (unlike Murdock) and they do a great job of selling Kilgrave as super scary.

[t209]

So on Powerman, will it be like Netflix series or homage to Blaxploitation? I mean Powerman was based on Blaxploitation, like Shaft and Superfly, which ironically Powerman outlives that genre.
Here's one where they made it over-the-top and stereotypical way.
- Dr. Doom owed him 500 dollar for reward but refuse to pay him.
- Powerman hi-jacked fantasticar and beat up the Thing at the Baxter building.
- travel to Latveria and beat up the guards.
- Finally, beat up Dr. Doom and got his money back.
Not to mention that I kinda feel that Daniel Rand/Iron Fist as half-Asian (even the comics made him white despite his dad being from pseudo-Asian city).

[Calemyr]

I haven't been keeping up with this, so forgive me if I'm blatantly wrong on Kilgrave's personality, but I really kinda hope they'll set it up like Terra v Kefka in the Final Fantasy Dissidia games.

In the Dissida games, gods of light and dark fight this cyclical war of ideology using iconic characters from various Final Fantasy games. The two representing Final Fantasy VI (FFIII on the Super Nintendo) are Terra and Kefka. During the 12th cycle, Kefka had Terrra enslaved, using her as an arcane weapon of mass destruction. The 13th cycle (the cycle the original Dissidia took place in) was after Terra had been freed from Kefka and rejoined the "heroic" side. Throughout the game, Kefka makes it very clear that he wants her back under his control and repeatedly appears to taunt her, informing her of the horrible things she did to her so-called friends back in the day and how much she obviously enjoyed it.

I really could see them going that route here. Kilgrave gets free (I see Hydra breaking him out of the Fridge, only to have anyone who comes in contact with him just let him pass without issue), but has spent the last so many years locked up, missing the toy that got away from him. Now, her will is strong enough that he can't easily take her. However, she can't actually stop him either. So he decides that, in order to get his favorite thrall back, he has to break her will. This includes masterminding enough crime to overwork her, but also stopping in for a casual friendly visit, in which anyone who tries to protect her becomes his minion for the duration of the visit. And when he stops by he speaks longingly of the "good old days", and how exquisite an engine of destruction she was in his hands. And all the while she's absolutely terrified of him - thugs with guns don't scare her, the worst they can do is kill her.

[Dragonus45]

Can I just say I am really really, perhaps even unreasonably, disappointing she was never actually a proper costumed hero.

[Cheesegear]

Kind of disappointed that Kilgrave isn't actually purple.

[lord_khaine]

That he isnt actually purple is something i can understand on the other hand. It will just make him stand out to much in the marvel cinematic universe.

He is most scary as a shadow hanging out behind the scene manipulating events, but if he is literally purple then its very hard for him to remain hidden.
And as long as you manage to surprise him then anyone can gun him down before he can use his power.

[BlueHerring]

Not to mention that I kinda feel that Daniel Rand/Iron Fist as half-Asian (even the comics made him white despite his dad being from pseudo-Asian city).That wouldn't pan out. The fact that Daniel Rand, Wendell Rand (his dad, for those who aren't familiar with Iron Fist) and Orson Randall (the previous Iron Fist) are outsiders is something that drives the plot in the whole Immortal Iron Fist storyline. A lot of things wouldn't have happened if they weren't actual outsiders to K'un Lun.

I believe that it's been mentioned that Madame Gao is Crane Mother, and she sells a brand of heroin called Steel Serpent with Davos' logo on it.

So they're at least making nods to that storyline.

Speaking of Iron Fist, has anyone else spotted any references to him yet?

Only thing I can think of is the name Hogarth. Of course, Rand's lawyer/person in charge of helping him manage his company is a guy in IIF, so I'm not entirely sure what's going on there.

[Dragonus45]

Only thing I can think of is the name Hogarth. Of course, Rand's lawyer/person in charge of helping him manage his company is a guy in IIF, so I'm not entirely sure what's going on there.

I think its just a gender swapped version of the character, I imagine her plot line here is going to be the setup for her winding up the lawyer to the Heroes for Hire, because they are the only ones that will take her, like in the comics. Or I'm just being hopeful.

Also
Nuke, what a ****ing surprise that was. Also his plot line makes me sad, I was really starting to like him before he went and shot the other character I liked a lot and went full OD.

[BlueHerring]

I think its just a gender swapped version of the character, I imagine her plot line here is going to be the setup for her winding up the lawyer to the Heroes for Hire, because they are the only ones that will take her, like in the comics. Or I'm just being hopeful. Yeah, that was what I was hoping for.

Also, part of me is hoping for some of the weird mentions in the interviews are actually tie-ins. That would be kinda neat.

[t209]

That wouldn't pan out. The fact that Daniel Rand, Wendell Rand (his dad, for those who aren't familiar with Iron Fist) and Orson Randall (the previous Iron Fist) are outsiders is something that drives the plot in the whole Immortal Iron Fist storyline. A lot of things wouldn't have happened if they weren't actual outsiders to K'un Lun.

I believe that it's been mentioned that Madame Gao is Crane Mother, and she sells a brand of heroin called Steel Serpent with Davos' logo on it.

So they're at least making nods to that storyline.

:smalleek: He's an outsider? I thought he was a native of K'un Lunn since he had a brother. I think that was some retcon or something that I don't know about.

[Dragonus45]

So, I find it funny that she turns down potential help from Daredevil, one of the only characters other than her who would be immune to Kilgraves whammy effect, because she doesn't want him to get mind controlled. Well at least he would be immune if they follow the normal Marvel universe.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Can I just say I am really really, perhaps even unreasonably, disappointing she was never actually a proper costumed hero.

I agree 100% with this...

the entire origin was messed up from the comics... in the comics the fact that she is a failed hero informed her character, here it is just 2 jokes, one by her sister, and one from the guy she is doing...

I don't understand why they changed this...

I wasn't happy with Dare Devil, but I liked this more... I do wish

they didn't kill killgrave... they set up the perfect 'we need him alive to prove this' then just killed him off... He was perfect to be a reason to have to build a new supermax prison...

I hope we get to see more nuke...

[Spamotron]

Hey no spoilers! I don't read them damn filthy comics.
Seems like the series will take narrative liberties the same way Daredevil did. I'm predicting the TV Kilgrave will be much scarier than whatever weaksauce the comics had, as you described.

Comics Purple Man has had his power steadily increase over the years. Current Kilgrave can control entire Avengers teams that include Thor and and the Hulk at the same time.

[Dragonus45]

they didn't kill killgrave... they set up the perfect 'we need him alive to prove this' then just killed him off... He was perfect to be a reason to have to build a new supermax prison...

I hope we get to see more nuke...

Yea, they really did not use kilgrave to the best, its one of the reasons I think Daredevil was a bit better of a series. That said the cocktail of super drugs he was taking could always lead to later shenanigans.

As for Nuke, they have said that Born Again is going to be the next portion of comics they adapt... I really hope we get to see Cap in it.

[Lizard Lord]

I think its just a gender swapped version of the character, I imagine her plot line here is going to be the setup for her winding up the lawyer to the Heroes for Hire, because they are the only ones that will take her, like in the comics. Or I'm just being hopeful.


Funny you mention that, since I kind of got the impression that Jerry Jeri was designed to be male but the casting director liked Carrie-Anne Moss more that any male actor that auditioned for the same role and decided that Jerry Jeri Hogarth's gender didn't really matter that much.


Edit: When I looked up the actress's name on IMDB, I learned that Jeri's name is spelled with an i.

[Dragonus45]

Funny you mention that, since I kind of got the impression that Jerry Jeri was designed to be male but the casting director liked Carrie-Anne Moss more that any male actor that auditioned for the same role and decided that Jerry Jeri Hogarth's gender didn't really matter that much.


Edit: When I looked up the actress's name on IMDB, I learned that Jeri's name is spelled with an i.

That might be it, I kind of like the casting as a woman though. It was an interesting take on the high power exec sleeping with his her blonde secretary.

[BRC]

Okay, I finished the show last night.

Some random thoughts

At one point Jeri mentions that Pam is being charged with murder.

Why? They have a wounded Jeri, Whatshername's fingerprints on the knife, all the evidence consistent with Jeri being attacked with a knife, Pam coming in, hitting whatshername, who then hits her head on the table and dies.

You know, the things that physically happened. It seems a pretty clear-cut case of, if not self-defense, trying to defend somebody else. There are even witnesses (Jessica) and Motive (Messy Breakup) to back it up.

Like, I could see Pam not wanting anything to do with Jeri ever again, but I have trouble buying the Police expecting to get a Murder conviction.



Also


What is his deal?


Like, I get the whole "Crazy Combat Drugs" thing, but his behavior seems less "Hyper-Focused For Battle" and more "Totally Irrational".

He had all the information he needed from Detective Clemont, who was not intending to stop him, so why did he kill him? He clearly was not operating in berserker mode, because he had enough presence of mind to then dispose of the bodies.


Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?

[Giggling Ghast]

I quite liked the series. I will say that the fight scenes in Daredevil were quite a bit better; it's good Jessica has super-strength, because she can't fight worth a damn. But still, great story, well-acted, well-written, etc.


Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?


His ongoing commands DO NOT shut off upon unconsciousness or death. Time is ultimately the determination of how long the effect will last. That's how he can threaten Jessica with the suicidal deaths of her neighbours if he turns up dead.

He was not commanding anyone to do anything at the moment when he died. He had told everyone simply to "STOP."

[Kid Jake]

The Tranq was pretty much pointless since it apparently...stopped him from giving new orders while unconscious? Duct tape or a broken jaw would have done just as much to inhibit his abilities.

[Anyr]

His ongoing commands DO NOT shut off upon unconsciousness or death. Time is ultimately the determination of how long the effect will last. That's how he can threaten Jessica with the suicidal deaths of her neighbours if he turns up dead.

If that's true, then why did he insist on staying conscious during the kidney surgery? Jessica and the surgeon both make sure to emphasise that point. It's specifically stated that anaesthesia will disrupt his powers in a way that normal sleep doesn't. What form could that disruption take, except the suspension of ongoing commands?

[BWR]

OK so a good show but it ended up losing some of the tension and punch the first few episodes had. Kilgrave was much less scary when he actually showed up onscreen than his actions and Jessica's reactions to the idea of him being alive beforehand. He came off as a petulant, spoiled brat with some scary powers and that lessened his impact. It made me want to smack him like a dangerous bug rather than kill him for being a scary monster. The show started dragging a bit towards the end, like it was meant to be a few episodes shorter but they had to fill a few extra hours so they packed in some filler. They did it rather well, all told, but I still think it would have worked better as a shorter series.

[Geddoe]

OK so a good show but it ended up losing some of the tension and punch the first few episodes had. Kilgrave was much less scary when he actually showed up onscreen than his actions and Jessica's reactions to the idea of him being alive beforehand. He came off as a petulant, spoiled brat with some scary powers and that lessened his impact. It made me want to smack him like a dangerous bug rather than kill him for being a scary monster. The show started dragging a bit towards the end, like it was meant to be a few episodes shorter but they had to fill a few extra hours so they packed in some filler. They did it rather well, all told, but I still think it would have worked better as a shorter series.
Well Jessica didn't know that she was now immune, but he does. She was scared because if she entered a room with him in it without expecting it, she thought she would end up a smiling sex slave until he grew bored of her and told her to put a bullet in her head. In a physical confrontation he was never going to be a threat, but what he can make others do puts them at risk.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay, I finished the show last night.


What is his deal?


Like, I get the whole "Crazy Combat Drugs" thing, but his behavior seems less "Hyper-Focused For Battle" and more "Totally Irrational".

He had all the information he needed from Detective Clemont, who was not intending to stop him, so why did he kill him? He clearly was not operating in berserker mode, because he had enough presence of mind to then dispose of the bodies.


Also, if Kilgrave's powers shut off (Including any ongoing commands) once he gets tranquilized, why did the old lady from next door still blow up Simpson and his friends?


He's the weak link in a show where otherwise everyone has really clear character based motivations for the things they do. Even when the things they do are self destructive and stupid.

It's a clear case of "setting things up for another show later" to the detriment of this one

[Giggling Ghast]

If that's true, then why did he insist on staying conscious during the kidney surgery? Jessica and the surgeon both make sure to emphasise that point. It's specifically stated that anaesthesia will disrupt his powers in a way that normal sleep doesn't. What form could that disruption take, except the suspension of ongoing commands?

I have no idea how long surgery like that would take - in the show, it's stated that it lasted 10 hours - but I imagine he couldn't risk being under so long that his powers wore off.

Given that his powers are virus-based, why would he need to be conscious for them to work?

Admittedly, the show's a bit indecisive on this point.

[Blackdrop]

...Given that his powers are virus-based...

I wonder if his powers are virus-based. It strikes me as being damn convenient that Jessica became immune to the virus right after she killed Reva and it makes me wonder if instead of the virus being the cause of Kilgraves power, it's more that his power causes the virus.

[thorgrim29]

I have no idea how long surgery like that would take - in the show, it's stated that it lasted 10 hours - but I imagine he couldn't risk being under so long that his powers wore off.

Given that his powers are virus-based, why would he need to be conscious for them to work?

Admittedly, the show's a bit indecisive on this point.

I think it's more that when you're asleep you can wake up and Kilgrave probably isn't a very deep sleeper, paranoid schemer that he is. When you're under anesthesia you're out whatever happens until it wears off.

[Giggling Ghast]

I wonder if his powers work on two levels: subconscious and verbal. Verbal commands cannot be disobeyed until the time limit runs out, but he subconsciously influences people to want to obey and follow him.

[Clertar]

I wonder if his powers are virus-based. It strikes me as being damn convenient that Jessica became immune to the virus right after she killed Reva and it makes me wonder if instead of the virus being the cause of Kilgraves power, it's more that his power causes the virus.

Kilgrave's powers

are indeed virus-based, since that was the strategy his mind-controlled dad used to make them stronger. Otherwise, there's no explanation to the boosts he gets.
On the other hand, there's clearly a mental component to it, with Jessica breaking through his powers, or Luke resisting them long enough to be shot in the jaw.

[Dienekes]

Kilgrave's powers

are indeed virus-based, since that was the strategy his mind-controlled dad used to make them stronger. Otherwise, there's no explanation to the boosts he gets.
On the other hand, there's clearly a mental component to it, with Jessica breaking through his powers, or Luke resisting them long enough to be shot in the jaw.

The other possible answer is that, since it's a virus and the show is going on comicbook science, your body eventually becomes immune. Jessica lived with the virus long enough that she did develop immunity, and Luke's powers are very defensive so maybe they effect his immune system as well. Who knows?

Anyway about the show
I binged it, and gotta say it was pretty good. Not as good as Daredevil, but still good. The fightscene choreography was definitely lacking, but the focus was more on Jessica's mentality and figuring out how to beat the big bad.

Really the powerhouse actor of the bunch, I thought, was Tennant. Who was at least interesting to watch, despite the fact his character came off more as a petulant child and stalker than a serious threat like Kingpin did. Ritter was good, but I thought she struggled on some of the more emotional parts. Overall though, if they continue with the show, and I hope they do because I enjoyed it, I'm glad that they killed off Killgrave. He served his purpose, his arc with Jessica concluded and since the show was so focused on their relationship in the first one, and they looked at that relationship through so many angles in their one season, I don't think I can think of anywhere else for their relationship to go. There's not tension like there is with, say, the Thor/Loki relationship where there's the hope for Loki's redemption in Thor, and the brotherly connection. In this, Purple Man was Jessica's tormentor, that was it. She wanted him dead, and there was never any real variation on that. The only reason she didn't want to kill him originally was to save a girl's life, but after that didn't happen (in one of the best bits of the show, in my opinion), there was never a reason to not kill Killgrave on sight. Jessica is set up as not a person afraid to kill, and I'm glad they didn't try and make a contrived scenario for him to survive.

I liked the addition of Nuke. I consider myself knowledgeable of these comicbook characters and I did not put together who Simpson was until after the transformation. It was well done, though they could have gone to greater lengths to explain why he went nuts. A couple sentences of how the drug was making him increasingly erratic which is why he originally quit the program would have helped. Maybe they said that and I missed it. I could tell he was abusing the drugs because we see him take 2 red pills at one point, but that was after he randomly killed Lester Freamon the detective guy.

That's it really. Solid show, would continue to watch, but hardly perfect and has some definite room to improve.

[Hytheter]

A couple sentences of how the drug was making him increasingly erratic which is why he originally quit the program would have helped. Maybe they said that and I missed it. I could tell he was abusing the drugs because we see him take 2 red pills at one point, but that was after he randomly killed Lester Freamon the detective guy.

I could be misremembering, but I recall him taking a few red pills almost immediately after being told not to do that by the doctor guy. I think the drugs making him crazy was implied when the doctor said they were doing it differently now.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

yea when he was in the hospital he was told not to take more red pills, that they drive him into hyperdrive, blue are to come down, and white to maintain... so most of the time he should be on white...

I don't understand why when hellcat needed them they didn't look for them outside the window...

[Clertar]

I don't understand why when hellcat needed them they didn't look for them outside the window...

Are you serious? Jessica lives a few floors up on her building (the elevator ride of Hope and her parents while Jessica was running down the stairs), it's a little bottle thrown into a street of Manhattan.

[Sholos]

All this referring to characters by their comics names (Hellcat and Nuke) is very confusing.

Anyway, I am really appreciating several things about this series so far. Two big things are the way the struggle between Kilgrave and Jessica is framed and also the fact that they didn't feel the need for gratuitous shots of her trauma. Also:
I love that she explicitly calls Kilgrave out about the rape. And doesn't let him weasel out. That was just a great moment for me.

[Pex]

Only saw the first episode so far.

PG rating this is not. Not for the kiddies this show. I was not enamored. I'm not yet willing to just forget about this show, but I find myself less than enthused about wanting to see the next episode. I know nothing of the Jessica Jones comic or how accurate this show's portrayal of it is. This style is not my style. It's no different than various dramas on other channels these days, and I don't watch them because they're not my style. We'll see whether I stop watching altogether, watch it just to get it over with as part of the MCU, or become interested and want to know what happens.

Only because I bring it up in other threads, I appreciate the equivalencies of various states of undress among the genders instead of only the males in other shows.

[Giggling Ghast]

Re: Jessica's immunity:

My theory is that it's tied to her healing factor. Being under Kilgrave's control had been slowly killing her for a long time, but it was within the boundaries of her tolerance. Murdering Luke's wife, something that was completely against her character, so damaged her mentally that her healing factor finally kicked into overdrive and created an immunity to his powers.

[McStabbington]

I binged it, and gotta say it was pretty good. Not as good as Daredevil, but still good. The fightscene choreography was definitely lacking, but the focus was more on Jessica's mentality and figuring out how to beat the big bad.

Really the powerhouse actor of the bunch, I thought, was Tennant. Who was at least interesting to watch, despite the fact his character came off more as a petulant child and stalker than a serious threat like Kingpin did. Ritter was good, but I thought she struggled on some of the more emotional parts. Overall though, if they continue with the show, and I hope they do because I enjoyed it, I'm glad that they killed off Killgrave. He served his purpose, his arc with Jessica concluded and since the show was so focused on their relationship in the first one, and they looked at that relationship through so many angles in their one season, I don't think I can think of anywhere else for their relationship to go. There's not tension like there is with, say, the Thor/Loki relationship where there's the hope for Loki's redemption in Thor, and the brotherly connection. In this, Purple Man was Jessica's tormentor, that was it. She wanted him dead, and there was never any real variation on that. The only reason she didn't want to kill him originally was to save a girl's life, but after that didn't happen (in one of the best bits of the show, in my opinion), there was never a reason to not kill Killgrave on sight. Jessica is set up as not a person afraid to kill, and I'm glad they didn't try and make a contrived scenario for him to survive.



The choreography was perfect given that most of the supers in the show who do any fighting don't have any formal training. You can instantly see tell visually that Luke and Jessica are primarily reliant on being 10x as strong as their opponents to win fights, and that Luke typically goes at about 1/4 strength, while Jessica goes 1/2 strength because she's more damaged and less invested in saving lives. Meanwhile, Red Pill-Trish and Nuke are using actual training and focus on crippling their opponents fast and efficiently. It's all conveyed visually without a word of dialogue, which is exactly what the choreography was supposed to do. Compared with most fight choreography, which is all about showing visual flare and verve regardless of its purpose in the story, it was actually really refreshing in its realism.

If you're looking for wirework and flashy attacks, maybe you should be watching a different show about different heroes. Watching poor brawlers in Hell's Kitchen and expecting wuxia is kind of a problem with your expectations rather than the show.



As for Tenant, I would say both the writing and the performance was brilliant. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I would say if you don't know what that is like, watching this show will show you exactly, exactly what it is like, right down to the way they manipulate outsiders to isolate their victims. Abusers aren't evil and vile because they want to control the world. They are evil and vile because they want to control you, and it is precisely that banality, or if you prefer intimacy, that makes them so damaging.

If you prefer Palpatine-style villains, I'll admit that wasn't what the show was going for. But don't knock the show just because you wanted Palpatine and instead got a pitch-perfect Joruus C'Boath.

[Dienekes]

The choreography was perfect given that most of the supers in the show who do any fighting don't have any formal training. You can instantly see tell visually that Luke and Jessica are primarily reliant on being 10x as strong as their opponents to win fights, and that Luke typically goes at about 1/4 strength, while Jessica goes 1/2 strength because she's more damaged and less invested in saving lives. Meanwhile, Red Pill-Trish and Nuke are using actual training and focus on crippling their opponents fast and efficiently. It's all conveyed visually without a word of dialogue, which is exactly what the choreography was supposed to do. Compared with most fight choreography, which is all about showing visual flare and verve regardless of its purpose in the story, it was actually really refreshing in its realism.

If you're looking for wirework and flashy attacks, maybe you should be watching a different show about different heroes. Watching poor brawlers in Hell's Kitchen and expecting wuxia is kind of a problem with your expectations rather than the show.


Eh it's not the lack of wire work. In general I dislike it though some movies do it ok. But compare any of the fights with say Daredevil or some of the other great cinematic fight scenes like, Old Boy, Rob Roy, the Duellists, and so on and the problem isn't that the fighting isn't realistic it's that a fight should tell a story in an interesting way. The choreography was boring. Really, really boring. There is little to no tension, ever in their fight sequences even when Jess is being shot at by a bunch of cops.




As for Tenant, I would say both the writing and the performance was brilliant. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I would say if you don't know what that is like, watching this show will show you exactly, exactly what it is like, right down to the way they manipulate outsiders to isolate their victims. Abusers aren't evil and vile because they want to control the world. They are evil and vile because they want to control you, and it is precisely that banality, or if you prefer intimacy, that makes them so damaging.

If you prefer Palpatine-style villains, I'll admit that wasn't what the show was going for. But don't knock the show just because you wanted Palpatine and instead got a pitch-perfect Joruus C'Boath.


I would have liked Thrawn. C'Boath was the weakest character of the Thrawn Saga. A petulant child that never came across as a serious threat to the heroes or Thrawn. Just a tool to be used by the more interesting and competent characters. If C'Boath had been the core villain of the Thrawn Saga I do not think it would be considered anywhere near the classic piece of Star Wars EU that it currently is. But hell, Kingpin was an amazing villain not because he wanted to control the world or even control Hell's Kitchen. He worked because he exuded a threat and seemed to have the intelligence to back that threat up. Despite having no powers he was more frightening than Tennant was.

A good manipulator is fun. Tennant's acting was great, but Killgrave wasn't really a good manipulator without his powers. He comes across more as Joffrey than any other character in recent memory, including C'Boath. A spoiled child lashing out at everyone including his little crush. Of course I was never afraid of Joffrey I just wanted to smack him.

Now maybe if I was ever in an abusive relationship he would come across as creepy. But since the idea of someone trying to control me with false intimacy strikes me more as an amusing waste of my abusers time. I don't have feelings of intimacy to prey upon. The last girlfriend I had that tried to give me an ultimatum ended with me laughing in her face.

[Clertar]

IRT Dienekes:

I think that precisely, Kilgrave was a very good manipulator even without his powers. It's seen plenty of times, both implicitly and explicitly. From the way he plays with Jessica when he brings her to her old house, or the way he purchases this very house, to how he gets into everyboy's mind when he's trapped behind that glass cage, beginning with Jessica herself. He's a master manipulator, regardless of his power.

[No brains]

Could someone please explain this comic to me? http://hit-comic.com/comic/jessica-jones-is-on-netflix-apparently/

Does this joke work? Is this actually indicative of the show's content or tone? Would you say this is a fair joke on the show, or perhaps just a shallow jab at it? If I watch the show, will I be in for this kind of thing, or does this joke over-exaggerate?

Unfortunately for me, my first experience with noir detective stories was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, so I've been set up to never take them seriously. I think it could broaden my horizons to try, but if the show has a much booze as this this little joke implies, I'd have to try very hard.

[Dienekes]

IRT Dienekes:

I think that precisely, Kilgrave was a very good manipulator even without his powers. It's seen plenty of times, both implicitly and explicitly. From the way he plays with Jessica when he brings her to her old house, or the way he purchases this very house, to how he gets into everyboy's mind when he's trapped behind that glass cage, beginning with Jessica herself. He's a master manipulator, regardless of his power.

Really? Because both of those events were what convinced me he wasn't actually all that smart.

The bringing Jessica to her own home did exactly what to her mental state? Nothing, as far as I could tell. She came in wanting to kill/convict him. Didn't because his powers put people's lives at risk. He deluded himself into thinking that his rape victim would somehow love him, then had it blow up in his face. Because his rape victim didn't love him. I wonder who could have seen that coming? Everyone. Everyone who isn't a child anyway.

Then in his imprisonment, he had to do literally one thing: not use his powers in front of the cop. That'd force them to either start fighting each other or get him released. What does he do? He uses his powers in front of the cop to kill an elderly woman who he could have easily have killed without, if he needed her dead. Or, better yet, not killed her and show the cop that he's an innocent who's being tortured. Then get released and murder everyone.

The only character I can think of that he successfully manipulated was the lawyer. Who has to win some award for dumbest decision ever made. She knows of his power, she knows he's a complete amoral sociopath who kills and rapes and does all sorts of nonsense. And she still trusts him? Why? The only one who comes close would be Trish, for shooting the only thing keeping the mind controlling sociopath from controlling her and forcing her to kill herself. Which he then does. At least her poor decision making can be seen as trying to kill the villain, and I guess she just has a horrible shot, not being able to hit the guy standing still about 10 feet in front of her.

[Reddish Mage]

Could someone please explain this comic to me? http://hit-comic.com/comic/jessica-jones-is-on-netflix-apparently/

Does this joke work? Is this actually indicative of the show's content or tone? Would you say this is a fair joke on the show, or perhaps just a shallow jab at it? If I watch the show, will I be in for this kind of thing, or does this joke over-exaggerate?

Unfortunately for me, my first experience with noir detective stories was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, so I've been set up to never take them seriously. I think it could broaden my horizons to try, but if the show has a much booze as this this little joke implies, I'd have to try very hard.

I don't know what you are saying here. Jessica is pretty full of self-loathing and one of the ways she deals with it is with drink. The show's overall tone is pretty serious, with a few minor clown character exceptions whose messed up actions basically are indicative of what sort of ****-hole Jessica lives in yeah I'm talking about that couple

So if you get off a chuckle at seeing a straight rendition of a self-loathing private eye, that doesn't hold back on the unsavory reality of what most PI work comes down to, whatever.

To me the acting is very good and they really sells the reality of whats going on. Much better than watching cheesy 30's movies will.




I agree 100% with this...

the entire origin was messed up from the comics... in the comics the fact that she is a failed hero informed her character, here it is just 2 jokes, one by her sister, and one from the guy she is doing...

I don't understand why they changed this...

I wasn't happy with Dare Devil, but I liked this more... I do wish

they didn't kill killgrave... they set up the perfect 'we need him alive to prove this' then just killed him off... He was perfect to be a reason to have to build a new supermax prison...

I hope we get to see more nuke...

I think you have to be an avid fan of the comic to call the origin "messed up." The story here really doesn't work with flashbacks of Flying Jewel going around to save the day while dressed in a fancy costume. Jessica has plenty of reason to be a messed up failure of a person in this continuity, the hero thing was unneccessary.

This guy really served his purpose thoroughly if not overmuch, he basically occupies the center of the plot not to mention Jessica's life, everyone around her, and by the end he gets involved with everyone in the whole darn show and by the end of the season, it was clear his time was over and he needed to be GONE for Jessica, for the rest of the characters, and for US to get over him, and be ready to move on to the next plot.

I don't think Jessica Jones works best on her own as the central character going forward. They basically made Kilgrave central to everything in HER life and now he's gone. She is free but she also lacks a plot as personaly compelling as the guy that was literally in her head.

The IGH, we know they are the next plot, who created her and Kilgrave and Luke and his wife and Simpson (whats with this "nuke" stuff) they are not important, on a personal level, to Jessica. Jessica doesn't really care about her origins and said it flat out at the end. We should follow Luke and have Jessica as the more peripheral character.

[Sholos]

Really? Because both of those events were what convinced me he wasn't actually all that smart.

The bringing Jessica to her own home did exactly what to her mental state? Nothing, as far as I could tell. She came in wanting to kill/convict him. Didn't because his powers put people's lives at risk. He deluded himself into thinking that his rape victim would somehow love him, then had it blow up in his face. Because his rape victim didn't love him. I wonder who could have seen that coming? Everyone. Everyone who isn't a child anyway.

Then in his imprisonment, he had to do literally one thing: not use his powers in front of the cop. That'd force them to either start fighting each other or get him released. What does he do? He uses his powers in front of the cop to kill an elderly woman who he could have easily have killed without, if he needed her dead. Or, better yet, not killed her and show the cop that he's an innocent who's being tortured. Then get released and murder everyone.

The only character I can think of that he successfully manipulated was the lawyer. Who has to win some award for dumbest decision ever made. She knows of his power, she knows he's a complete amoral sociopath who kills and rapes and does all sorts of nonsense. And she still trusts him? Why? The only one who comes close would be Trish, for shooting the only thing keeping the mind controlling sociopath from controlling her and forcing her to kill herself. Which he then does. At least her poor decision making can be seen as trying to kill the villain, and I guess she just has a horrible shot, not being able to hit the guy standing still about 10 feet in front of her.

I think this is a good time to remember that not everyone is a robot that acts perfectly and rationally in response to every situation.


Is Kilgrave naive and kind of an idiot to expect Jessica to somehow love him just because he bought her house? Of course he is. That's part of the point. But guess what? Millions of adults every day do things that aren't rational, that make no sense. It's called being human. And the more narcissistic you are, the less likely you are to realize just how much something like his plan isn't going to work. That sequence is supposed to highlight that YES, Kilgrave does in fact genuinely expect Jessica to somehow love him. Hell, he doesn't even realize that he's raped her! He is not operating in the same reality as most people.

Did you miss the part where he does exactly that with Jessica? Literally the entire reason she goes and gets his parents is because she's betting that he will crack under that level of emotional duress. And he does. And again, that is the kind of behavior expected from someone who's been tortured and is almost at a breaking point when you shove something highly emotional in their face. Not to mention his mom literally just stabbed him. That kind of thing tends to put a damper on rational thinking.

As for Hogarth.... Okay yeah, I got nothing there. Everything she did there was pretty dumb. Even being driven by the "I super want my receptionist chick and want my wife to sign the papers and not lose anything"... That was just an incredibly dumb move. But blaming Trish for opening fire on Kilgrave and then missing? For one (and I hate sounding like a broken record) I'll again point out the extremely tense situation, one Trish has not been prepared for or trained for. Things were going back very quickly. She did what she thought she needed to. And it's absolutely not surprising she missed. I don't know if you've ever fired a gun at a target in a literal life-and-death situation, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair body of evidence that says untrained shooters' aim goes to merry heck in a situation like that.

[Dienekes]

I think this is a good time to remember that not everyone is a robot that acts perfectly and rationally in response to every situation.


Is Kilgrave naive and kind of an idiot to expect Jessica to somehow love him just because he bought her house? Of course he is. That's part of the point. But guess what? Millions of adults every day do things that aren't rational, that make no sense. It's called being human. And the more narcissistic you are, the less likely you are to realize just how much something like his plan isn't going to work. That sequence is supposed to highlight that YES, Kilgrave does in fact genuinely expect Jessica to somehow love him. Hell, he doesn't even realize that he's raped her! He is not operating in the same reality as most people.

Did you miss the part where he does exactly that with Jessica? Literally the entire reason she goes and gets his parents is because she's betting that he will crack under that level of emotional duress. And he does. And again, that is the kind of behavior expected from someone who's been tortured and is almost at a breaking point when you shove something highly emotional in their face. Not to mention his mom literally just stabbed him. That kind of thing tends to put a damper on rational thinking.

As for Hogarth.... Okay yeah, I got nothing there. Everything she did there was pretty dumb. Even being driven by the "I super want my receptionist chick and want my wife to sign the papers and not lose anything"... That was just an incredibly dumb move. But blaming Trish for opening fire on Kilgrave and then missing? For one (and I hate sounding like a broken record) I'll again point out the extremely tense situation, one Trish has not been prepared for or trained for. Things were going back very quickly. She did what she thought she needed to. And it's absolutely not surprising she missed. I don't know if you've ever fired a gun at a target in a literal life-and-death situation, but I'm pretty sure there's a fair body of evidence that says untrained shooters' aim goes to merry heck in a situation like that.

But that's just it, he doesn't act like a great manipulator, he acts like a naive, somewhat dumb normal guy. His great successes are the result of the other characters doing something dumb that happens to benefit him on their own, not on his great manipulation skills. With the exception of Hogarth. That was his one and only successful manipulation attempt, and it only worked because Hogarth seemed to drop about 50 IQ points during their meeting. Honestly, I somewhat suspect that's one of the reasons we aren't shown their conversation. Trying to think of what he had to say to her to make her aid him and convince her that it was the best choice is really strains your brain. It wasn't to make her betrayal a surprise, the scene with her in the walkway chamber holding the door before Jessica shows up, shows she's gonna betray them.

[Carl]

Except for the part where killgrave is a mind controlling unholy horror. The whole point about killgrave is that he's completely ungodly scary despite being horribly inept. He the reverse of kingpin. Kingpin was scary for what he could do without superpowers. Killgrave is scary because of his superpowers.

[GloatingSwine]

Honestly, I somewhat suspect that's one of the reasons we aren't shown their conversation. Trying to think of what he had to say to her to make her aid him and convince her that it was the best choice is really strains your brain. It wasn't to make her betrayal a surprise, the scene with her in the walkway chamber holding the door before Jessica shows up, shows she's gonna betray them.

Do you really think he had to persuade her?

Hogarth is also manipulative, controlling, and had repeatedly been established to be unscrupulous and unwilling to lose no matter who to, and she was out of options regarding her divorce. It was totally in character for her to make a deal with Kilgrave without any persuasion on his part.

[Reddish Mage]

Except for the part where killgrave is a mind controlling unholy horror. The whole point about killgrave is that he's completely ungodly scary despite being horribly inept. He the reverse of kingpin. Kingpin was scary for what he could do without superpowers. Killgrave is scary because of his superpowers.

Despite or because of being inept? A guy who could casually tell you to go take a piss, who is subject to random mood swings, who can suddenly throw a tantrum at the least slight and indulge in his own transient whims is much scarier then a cool and calculated guy with a plan.

Kilgrave is the essence of the Chaotic Evil villain.

[BRC]

But that's just it, he doesn't act like a great manipulator, he acts like a naive, somewhat dumb normal guy. His great successes are the result of the other characters doing something dumb that happens to benefit him on their own, not on his great manipulation skills. With the exception of Hogarth. That was his one and only successful manipulation attempt, and it only worked because Hogarth seemed to drop about 50 IQ points during their meeting. Honestly, I somewhat suspect that's one of the reasons we aren't shown their conversation. Trying to think of what he had to say to her to make her aid him and convince her that it was the best choice is really strains your brain. It wasn't to make her betrayal a surprise, the scene with her in the walkway chamber holding the door before Jessica shows up, shows she's gonna betray them.


Well yeah. Kilgrave is not a master manipulator for the same reason Jessica is not skilled in hand-to-hand combat, he has never needed to be.


From what we know about Kilgrave, his desires are entirely hedonistic. Whatever he wants, at a given moment, he takes. And generally what he wants is good food, fine clothes, luxurious places to live, entertainment, and beautiful women. He does not even need to be especially clever with his commands. As far as we can tell, somebody under his control acts on their own initiative to fulfill his commands (The Patients at the hospital coordinating the search). While they CAN be tricked or have his exact words used to let them overcome his compulsion, they never do so on their own initiative.

His desires become more complex with regards to his origin, but his Parents went missing, he had no real way to track them down. His Control does not last long enough to compel any sort of serious investigation unless he wants to hover over the investigator's shoulder, and they vanished years ago. Jessica only found them because they came to New York as a sort of penance.

With Jessica, there was somebody he couldn't control, and so he had to try to manipulate her. He could only get her to stick around by threatening innocent lives, he briefly dangled the idea of letting her turn him into a Hero in front of her, but even that did not last more than a few hours.

Really, the most clever bit of Manipulation he did was managing to avoid giving her Commands for as long as he did in order to avoid letting her learn about her immunity.

As far as Jeri, that was more about Jeri than about anything clever that Kilgrave did. All he did was offer. Jeri was the one who was a total idiot there.
They did some work to give her a reason to. Wendy was threatening everything she cared about, Pam was pressuring her to "Take Care of It", she prides herself on never losing.
But you would think she would be smarter than to trust Kilgrave with neither backup nor guarantee.

[Dienekes]

Well yeah. Kilgrave is not a master manipulator for the same reason Jessica is not skilled in hand-to-hand combat, he has never needed to be.


From what we know about Kilgrave, his desires are entirely hedonistic. Whatever he wants, at a given moment, he takes. And generally what he wants is good food, fine clothes, luxurious places to live, entertainment, and beautiful women. He does not even need to be especially clever with his commands. As far as we can tell, somebody under his control acts on their own initiative to fulfill his commands (The Patients at the hospital coordinating the search). While they CAN be tricked or have his exact words used to let them overcome his compulsion, they never do so on their own initiative.

His desires become more complex with regards to his origin, but his Parents went missing, he had no real way to track them down. His Control does not last long enough to compel any sort of serious investigation unless he wants to hover over the investigator's shoulder, and they vanished years ago. Jessica only found them because they came to New York as a sort of penance.

With Jessica, there was somebody he couldn't control, and so he had to try to manipulate her. He could only get her to stick around by threatening innocent lives, he briefly dangled the idea of letting her turn him into a Hero in front of her, but even that did not last more than a few hours.

Really, the most clever bit of Manipulation he did was managing to avoid giving her Commands for as long as he did in order to avoid letting her learn about her immunity.

As far as Jeri, that was more about Jeri than about anything clever that Kilgrave did. All he did was offer. Jeri was the one who was a total idiot there.
They did some work to give her a reason to. Wendy was threatening everything she cared about, Pam was pressuring her to "Take Care of It", she prides herself on never losing.
But you would think she would be smarter than to trust Kilgrave with neither backup nor guarantee.


Well yes, he is not a good manipulator. That's my argument and you seem to be agreeing. Me giving him Hogarth is throwing him a bone. The one character he successfully manipulated could just as easily fit as a character that happened to do something to aid him by luck. But that one is iffy, because we don't see their conversation, so I gave it to him. But I do note that whatever happened Hogarth was a complete fool.

[Carl]

Despite or because of being inept?

I was thinking despite but your spoiler makes a good case for either way. What it comes down to though is that with that kind of total control unless you're A) amoral enough to kill him and not give a damn about what he might do to others via failsafe commands, (or really certain he doesn't have any setup), and B) Unknown enough to him that he can't take preventative action against you, (or have access to someone who's immune), he can be horribly inept and still be completely invulnerable to any attempt to stop him.

[Kitten Champion]

Kilgrave lacks the capacity to see the world from other people's perspectives, it's a significant aspect of why he's a villain. He genuinely believes Jessica will come to love him but he has no concept of what love is because he's a narcissistic monster, so he uses what he learned about or from her to cobble together something like a romantic gesture - a symbol of emotional intimacy - to try and woe her. He's not a master manipulator, his conversations with Jessica hardly seem like Xanatos-level high art, he has to stumble over his speech to correct himself when he refers to her as an object. He only really understand how to control people - beyond the use of his power of course - with money, intoxicates, and mostly fear as they're things he can understand in more than the abstract.

Kilgrave could do so much his abilities, and he is intelligent based on the consideration he puts into his own survival throughout the series, but his goal in the end is the thing which requires him to do what he's least effective at and yet wants more than he can let go of in the end.

Lack of understanding people was never Kingpin's problem, he knew people and knew them well. It's why he was so effective as this go-between in the criminal underworld. His character started a genuine romance with someone that survived horrors he committed and he earned loyalty not simply based in fear with his subordinates. He wasn't perfect, obviously, his organization met persistent set-backs based on his own rash decisions and personal blindspots, but he was a better class of criminal than what was out there at the time.

If you reversed these characters in their respective shows, I think each might have actually succeeded.

[BRC]

Kilgrave lacks the capacity to see the world from other people's perspectives, it's a significant aspect of why he's a villain. He genuinely believes Jessica will come to love him but he has no concept of what love is because he's a narcissistic monster, so he uses what he learned about or from her to cobble together something like a romantic gesture - a symbol of emotional intimacy - to try and woe her. He's not a master manipulator, his conversations with Jessica hardly seem like Xanatos-level high art, he has to stumble over his speech to correct himself when he refers to her as an object. He only really understand how to control people - beyond the use of his power of course - with money, intoxicates, and mostly fear as they're things he can understand in more than the abstract.

Kilgrave could do so much his abilities, and he is intelligent based on the consideration he puts into his own survival throughout the series, but his goal in the end is the thing which requires him to do what he's least effective at and yet wants more than he can let go of in the end.

Lack of understanding people was never Kingpin's problem, he knew people and knew them well. It's why he was so effective as this go-between in the criminal underworld. His character started a genuine romance with someone that survived horrors he committed and he earned loyalty not simply based in fear with his subordinates. He wasn't perfect, obviously, his organization met persistent set-backs based on his own rash decisions and personal blindspots, but he was a better class of criminal than what was out there at the time.

If you reversed these characters in their respective shows, I think each might have actually succeeded.



It occurs to me, that Kilgrave is basically what you get if you have somebody whose only experiences with human interactions come from Television.


The revelation that Jessica is immune to Kilgrave's powers recolors the whole "Childhood Home" Sequence. Does he actually think he loves her, or does he just want to possess and control her.

But upon thinking about it, I don't think he realizes that there IS a difference. What he WANTS, is to control the one person he cannot control (Who also happens to be a gorgeous woman with superpowers.) He certainly seems to see himself as a Suitor, lashing out at other "Romantic" rivals (Like poor Reuben).

Really, he just wants her back in his Control, in one form or another.

But, due to his powers, he is unable to form an honest connection with another human being.

Okay, that's not true. He could use sign language, or carefully avoid giving instructions, say "Disregard any of my commands that you would not follow of your own free will" every 12 hours, ect ect. But he's not interested in that.

The point is, he has never learned how to actually connect with somebody else.

What he has done is watched Television. Films and Television, when they portray a romance, tend to end after the couple gets together. It's all about Desire. The Guy wants the girl, he makes romantic gestures until she agrees to be with him. They kiss, the film ends.

That's really the level of understanding that Kilgrave is starting from. He Wants Jessica the same way I want a pizza. If he could just walk up and control her, he would. But, he cannot, so he seeks other ways to control or otherwise "Have" her, because, as far he is aware, "Wanting" somebody is the same thing as Loving them. I think he would "Love" anything he wanted, but could not have, in the same way.

Really, a lot of his actions make WAY more sense if you assume he's working off some sort of cheesy hollywood romance playbook, which happens to coincide perfectly with his self-centered personality.

He has no reason to think that what Jessica really wants is to move into a perfect reconstruction of her childhood home. BUT, that sort of elaborate gesture is exactly the type of "LET ME PROVE I LOVE YOU!" Nonsense that you see in hollywood, where the romantic Hero wins over the object of his affection by demonstrating the lengths he is willing to go to win her over. It's basically just saying "LOOK HOW MUCH I WANT YOU!", with no consideration for what the other person wants.

[Giggling Ghast]

This article here identifies why Kilgrave is scary: he's a spoiled brat with the powers of a god.

http://screenrant.com/jessica-jones-kilgrave-david-tennant-villain-spoiled/

A lot of things have been said about how Kilgrave is a sexual predator, and while that's absolutely true, Kilgrave terrorizes everyone: men, women, children, the elderly, gays, straights, blacks, whites, the poor, the rich, etc. He's petty and cruel even when there's no need to be.

Take when he invades that family's home: there was no need to lock the children in a closet. He could have told them not to speak. He could have let that girl at least go to the bathroom; at least then the air wouldn't stink of piss. But he doesn't want other children interrupting his playtime, so he makes them suffer.

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, he's like Anthony Fremont from the It's a Good Life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)) episode of The Twilight Zone, only having gone through puberty.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, he's like Anthony Fremont from the It's a Good Life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)) episode of The Twilight Zone, only having gone through puberty.

I was actually going to mention that, after reading the Kilgrave is a spoiled child thing, that Twilight Zone did it better, and more terrifying, if you can enjoy the cheesy old black and white acting feel. I was just too lazy to go find the right episode/character. Thanks for doing my work for me.

[Kitten Champion]

I was actually going to mention that, after reading the Kilgrave is a spoiled child thing, that Twilight Zone did it better, and more terrifying, if you can enjoy the cheesy old black and white acting feel. I was just too lazy to go find the right episode/character. Thanks for doing my work for me.

I dispute them doing it better, Anthony wasn't much of a character - nor was he meant to be - the concept of Anthony was what was frightening. How the characters were ultimately unable to do anything and had no agency in the face of him was the horror. That concept is the beginning point here, or rather the nightmare which Jessica has left, and over the course the series the hero of course has to overcome him because that's the end point which we're watching for.

[Clertar]

SPOILERS ahead:


I really don't see him as being super inept without his superpowers. I found it added to how scary he is that he could manipulate people so well even when not using his powers.

- How he gets Jessica to send him a selfie every day at a specific hour!
- The way he plays with her by predicting what she would do and programming Luke Cage accordingly
- How he sends Hope's parents to Jessica, triggering all of her actions that lead to Hope killing her parents in front of Jessica
- His charisma when he's trying to buy Jessica's house with very sketchy methods
- In the glass cage, how he provokes Jessica into her beating him rather than her forcing him to show his powers, which she felt so confident she could do. That was a manipulation duel and Kilgrave won by KO.

I'm not trying to say that his superpowers are redundant. They are clearly the source of his threat, no doubt.

But Kilgrave is by no means a harmless lunatic without his powers, he's arguably the best manipulator in the whole show.

[Dienekes]

SPOILERS ahead:


I really don't see him as being super inept without his superpowers. I found it added to how scary he is that he could manipulate people so well even when not using his powers.

- How he gets Jessica to send him a selfie every day at a specific hour!
- The way he plays with her by predicting what she would do and programming Luke Cage accordingly
- How he sends Hope's parents to Jessica, triggering all of her actions that lead to Hope killing her parents in front of Jessica
- His charisma when he's trying to buy Jessica's house with very sketchy methods
- In the glass cage, how he provokes Jessica into her beating him rather than her forcing him to show his powers, which she felt so confident she could do. That was a manipulation duel and Kilgrave won by KO.

I'm not trying to say that his superpowers are redundant. They are clearly the source of his threat, no doubt.

But Kilgrave is by no means a harmless lunatic without his powers, he's arguably the best manipulator in the whole show.

-selfy was his usual, I can kill anyone if you don't do what I want shtick. Especially a guy who didn't leave town when he had the chance.
-His powers got increased in duration, he knew that, she didn't. Thinking she would take her usual precautions is not exactly genius level work.
-He gave the owner a giant bag of money. I still don't see it as being particularly manipulative. I'd sell my house for a giant bag of money.
-His powers wouldn't have worked on her anyway. He was literally unable to do anything except what he did.

[Carl]

-His powers wouldn't have worked on her anyway. He was literally unable to do anything except what he did.

That's not the point being made though. The point is he was able to achieve a goal without his powers.

The problem however Clertar is missing is that without his powers both his goals and abilities are so ineffectual in terms of danger level or threat that any hero or villain in the entire rest of the MCU could roll right over the top of him without even trying. By the standards of the MCU, if you take his powers away he's a non-entity. It's the powers that make him scary in a way that stacks upto the kind of threat the kinda of show where dealing with, (i.e. an MCU superhero story), needs.

[Surrealistik]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get a creepy Martin Shkreli vibe from Purple Man Tennant?

[Giggling Ghast]

Killgrave is somewhat clever, but he's hardly a genius. More often than not, he's saved by the actions of others. If Jessica had been determined to kill him from the start, it would have been a WAY shorter season.

[Lizard Lord]

Despite or because of being inept? A guy who could casually tell you to go take a piss, who is subject to random mood swings, who can suddenly throw a tantrum at the least slight and indulge in his own transient whims is much scarier then a cool and calculated guy with a plan.

Kilgrave is the essence of the Chaotic Evil villain.

Ah, but the scariest thing about Kingpin is he is the cool and calculated guy with a plan that can ALSO suddenly throw a tantrum at the least slight. "YOU EMBARRASSED ME IN FRONT OF HER!"

Kingpin is scary because he is unpredictable.

[Kitten Champion]

Killgrave is somewhat clever, but he's hardly a genius. More often than not, he's saved by the actions of others. If Jessica had been determined to kill him from the start, it would have been a WAY shorter season.

Of course, which is something that was in either the foreground or the background almost constantly.

Ultimately Kilgrave represents, well, rape. He's clever at times, certainly, finds creative ways to protect himself and slip out of problems he's faced with... but his depiction isn't flattered by making his characterization too cool, capable, or charming.

[themaque]

My 2 Cents:

Killgrave is not a master manipulator. He has never HAD to be so he never really learned the skills. He isn't a criminal genius. However, he is a manipulator and he is very clever. The worst part of Killgrave is that while not a genius he isn't a total idiot either. He CAN adapt and earn from his actions.

However, he is a man who has been very reliant on his Powers and abilities. Who can't understand other people or how they REALLY think or feel outside the superficial and that is his biggest downfall. He is a very shallow callous petty monster of incredible power.

The Kingpin:

Smart, Calculating, but with a callous animal instinct kept in check. He earned everything he had the hard way, and he IS a master manipulator.

It's really not a fair comparison, but I would say Killgrave is the more frightening of the two, IF HE WAS REAL. Kingpin is frightening because he is all to believable despite his amazing appearance/history.


Overall I think the show was great. Not better than Daredevil, just different. Your opinion as to which was the better series will be pretty dependent on your own personal tastes.

[McStabbington]

My 2 Cents:

Killgrave is not a master manipulator. He has never HAD to be so he never really learned the skills. He isn't a criminal genius. However, he is a manipulator and he is very clever. The worst part of Killgrave is that while not a genius he isn't a total idiot either. He CAN adapt and earn from his actions.

However, he is a man who has been very reliant on his Powers and abilities. Who can't understand other people or how they REALLY think or feel outside the superficial and that is his biggest downfall. He is a very shallow callous petty monster of incredible power.



With respect, nothing that you said cancels out the other: you don't have to be incredibly smart or incredibly empathetic to be incredibly manipulative, and that's exactly what makes people like Kilgrave so frightening. All you really need is superficial charm, knowledge of how to hit other people's emotional pressure points and a callous indifference to their feelings, and you too can easily back someone into an emotional outburst wherein you are perceived as the victim.

Which is exactly what Kilgrave did to turn Hogarth against Jessica. He didn't have to be smart to do it: all he had to do was be perceptive enough to catch that Hogarth was (understandably) uneasy about his isolation and Jessica's obvious instability, that he'd never met Hogarth before, and that anyone who hasn't been whammied by his powers tend to be extremely skeptical and significantly overestimate their ability to resist. Again, this does not require any great intelligence. The ability to read emotional cues and some quick wits are enough, which are playing to Kilgrave's strengths.

I think the other reason people are underestimating Kilgrave is because we are usually seeing him with people he doesn't care about and has only met for a few seconds. Really, really controlling someone takes incredibly detailed, intimate working knowledge of how their psyche works. Think about it: if someone insults you about something you don't care about, it's annoying maybe, but ultimately doesn't really hurt. True emotional abuse is about taking someone's strengths, what they like about themselves, and twisting it against that person.

That Kilgrave didn't do that to everyone he met doesn't mean he isn't a master at textbook emotional abuse. It's that he's a raging narcissist who can get what he wants without expending the effort. But the one person who can resist him? Within two months of being back in her life, Jessica was sending the man who stalked, raped, mentally violated and forced her to kill for him pictures, pictures where he was controlling what she looked like. Within three, she had moved in with him to a place where she was still suffering ongoing triggers for her PTSD. One of the textbook behaviors associated with both Jessica and PTSD sufferers in general being avoidance of triggering situations.

I really don't know what Kilgrave had to do to qualify as a master manipulator that he didn't do over and over again.

[Dienekes]

With respect, nothing that you said cancels out the other: you don't have to be incredibly smart or incredibly empathetic to be incredibly manipulative, and that's exactly what makes people like Kilgrave so frightening. All you really need is superficial charm, knowledge of how to hit other people's emotional pressure points and a callous indifference to their feelings, and you too can easily back someone into an emotional outburst wherein you are perceived as the victim.

Which is exactly what Kilgrave did to turn Hogarth against Jessica. He didn't have to be smart to do it: all he had to do was be perceptive enough to catch that Hogarth was (understandably) uneasy about his isolation and Jessica's obvious instability, that he'd never met Hogarth before, and that anyone who hasn't been whammied by his powers tend to be extremely skeptical and significantly overestimate their ability to resist. Again, this does not require any great intelligence. The ability to read emotional cues and some quick wits are enough, which are playing to Kilgrave's strengths.

I think the other reason people are underestimating Kilgrave is because we are usually seeing him with people he doesn't care about and has only met for a few seconds. Really, really controlling someone takes incredibly detailed, intimate working knowledge of how their psyche works. Think about it: if someone insults you about something you don't care about, it's annoying maybe, but ultimately doesn't really hurt. True emotional abuse is about taking someone's strengths, what they like about themselves, and twisting it against that person.

That Kilgrave didn't do that to everyone he met doesn't mean he isn't a master at textbook emotional abuse. It's that he's a raging narcissist who can get what he wants without expending the effort. But the one person who can resist him? Within two months of being back in her life, Jessica was sending the man who stalked, raped, mentally violated and forced her to kill for him pictures, pictures where he was controlling what she looked like. Within three, she had moved in with him to a place where she was still suffering ongoing triggers for her PTSD. One of the textbook behaviors associated with both Jessica and PTSD sufferers in general being avoidance of triggering situations.

I really don't know what Kilgrave had to do to qualify as a master manipulator that he didn't do over and over again.


Well, he could have his manipulations actually succeed for more than a couple seconds.

He's manipulative. He's very, very manipulative. But if you're going to throw around the term "master" in front of anything they should have more than one trick. His trick is, getting people to commit suicide if he doesn't get what he wants. He doesn't convince people, he doesn't trick people. He uses his powers to get people to kill themselves. His manipulations don't really work well. His manipulation to get Jessica to live with him only worked for about a day before it completely backfired in his face, because he didn't really manipulate her to get what he wanted. He gets a minor concession that just brings her closer to killing him.

The one time he didn't just use that trick, was with Hogart. Which as others have pointed out, really required more for her to be a complete idiot than any great action taken by him. If it was his manipulation and not her just acting on her own stupidity.

That's really it. I wasn't impressed with his manipulation attempts. Sure, getting Jessica to take pictures of herself is a win for him. But getting her to spend the night in her old house was meant to manipulate her into growing to like and respect him. It didn't work. It failed rather spectacularly in fact.

[Reddish Mage]

We don't see Kilgrave hatching many long-term plans. The only exception is Jessica.

The real sign Kilgrace in in-ept at true masterful manipulation is that he doesn't form long term plans, connections, loyalties, or have any form of organizational backing. He uses his powers without any thought of the consequences....

In short, he can't be a master manipulator because he can't understand anything beyond what's immediately in front of him.

Yes, he hatches elaborate paranoid protection schemes...but he always seems to be planning for attacks on his life. I think he was flat out exaggerating when he said everything Luke was doing was him.

[Kitten Champion]

We don't see Kilgrave hatching many long-term plans. The only exception is Jessica.

The real sign Kilgrace in in-ept at true masterful manipulation is that he doesn't form long term plans, connections, loyalties, or have any form of organizational backing. He uses his powers without any thought of the consequences....

In short, he can't be a master manipulator because he can't understand anything beyond what's immediately in front of him.

Yes, he hatches elaborate paranoid protection schemes...but he always seems to be planning for attacks on his life. I think he was flat out exaggerating when he said everything Luke was doing was him

He did install Malcolm as a double agent, after arranging his addiction to narcotics both to supplement his regular mental control and in order to hide his existence more effectively, months before he actually approached Jessica. Then put Jessica into a corner psychologically by arranging Hope's kidnapping, rescue, and her double homicide. He used Malcolm's fate as leverage to exert a daily power-game with her in the form of the photos she was required to send. He counter-acted Jessica's gambit to be jailed without exposing his own abilities to dozens of police officers, and thus facilitated her surrendering herself to him. It was also cunning, at least, to use his father to increase his own potential rather than simply following through on his initial impulse of cutting his own heart out - that's some degree of forward thinking and impulse control.

As to Luke, Kilgrave's explanation would be the only reasonable one because otherwise - if he was in lucid control of his own actions - he'd have done something to brake his control over him. Besides, even if he's Kilgrave, he does understand that she feels regret for killing his wife because she straight out told him so. He does know how to give elaborate orders in carrying out his schemes, that was evident with Hope in the first episode.

True Kilgrave doesn't have the need of long-term plans, since every villainous goal is ultimately just to achieve what he already has, power to be able to decide the fates of others freely to one's own benefit. Be it to possess something someone else has, to kill them, or to control their thoughts or actions in a manner one prefers. Taming Jessica is his first viable long-term goal because it's the only one without a direct and obvious course of action, and he only had a few months in which to plan it out.

He wasn't inept, this one goal was simply untenable regardless of what planning or craft he put into it, and his ego and obsessive nature refused to accept it. Which shows he has deluded priorities for the most part. In much the same way Jessica's determination to have him arrested lawfully was never going to work without SHIELD showing up, more to atone for her own guilt than for practical reasons.

[Carl]

What it comes back to is a trope. The Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard). A magnificent bastard isn't a scary ass villain because he has super scary powers, (though they can and do absolutely do get scarier because of them if they have), but because he's that good that he can achieve some combination of any or all of the following: Out-plan, out-manipulate, out-anticipate, and out-gambit you without them. Killgrave for all his capabilities is not that good without his powers.

[Dragonus45]

What it comes back to is a trope. The Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard). A magnificent bastard isn't a scary ass villain because he has super scary powers, (though they can and do absolutely do get scarier because of them if they have), but because he's that good that he can achieve some combination of any or all of the following: Out-plan, out-manipulate, out-anticipate, and out-gambit you without them. Killgrave for all his capabilities is not that good without his powers.

I still feel like he was more of a Smug Snake.

[McStabbington]

What it comes back to is a trope. The Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard). A magnificent bastard isn't a scary ass villain because he has super scary powers, (though they can and do absolutely do get scarier because of them if they have), but because he's that good that he can achieve some combination of any or all of the following: Out-plan, out-manipulate, out-anticipate, and out-gambit you without them. Killgrave for all his capabilities is not that good without his powers.

. . . So your complaint is that the serial rapist wasn't "Magnificent" in his bastardry.

I think you might want to reconsider your expectations for villainy. Reconsider them really hard. Because I think you just inadvertently hit the problem a lot of you had with Kilgrave: he doesn't have any admirable qualities. When in fact that's exactly why he's the best presentation of a villain the MCU has ever done: they made sure to point out that the murderer, serial abuser and serial rapist has no admirable qualities.

[Dienekes]

. . . So your complaint is that the serial rapist wasn't "Magnificent" in his bastardry.

I think you might want to reconsider your expectations for villainy. Reconsider them really hard. Because I think you just inadvertently hit the problem a lot of you had with Kilgrave: he doesn't have any admirable qualities. When in fact that's exactly why he's the best presentation of a villain the MCU has ever done: they made sure to point out that the murderer, serial abuser and serial rapist has no admirable qualities.

The thing is, intelligence, cunning, wit, intensity, and whatnot are what make characters interesting to watch.

And I'm not going to even get into the concept that because someone is evil, or even morally repulsive means they will be completely without qualities that on a normal person would be seen as admirable. The world is not that black and white, that someone who is morally repulsive is always going to be horrible, and disgusting, and useless is just as much a fiction as a deviously intelligent criminal mastermind. They both have existed, at sometime, but the reality is most often closer to the middle. People are people, they have good traits, bad traits, some despicable killers can be smart enough to entice the population, toy with them even.

This does not make them any less despicable, horrible, disgusting. In many ways, it makes them worse.

[Carl]

@McStabbington: No because that's not where killgrave falls down. Killgrave is entertaining to watch despite his absolute monster status, (pretty much like palpatine and a few other examples), it's that he's not sufficiently capable and dangerous to qualify. At the end of the day no matter how scary he is, he's not a threat without his powers, he "hacks, (computer hacking in this case is the metaphor)" his way to what he wants through sheer brute force. A magnificent bastard, (like kingpin), is capable enough he doesn't need to resort to such methods normally even if he's capable of them.

[AmberVael]

I don't think Kilgrave is meant to be a supervillainous mastermind, and I also think its better than he's not, at least for this version of the story.

Part of what I think made this story was that you could kinda see where Kilgrave came from. Not in the sense that he was reasonable or that he had a speck of good in him, but that you could see how someone with that power could get twisted very, very quickly. The power to make anyone obey? A power that you had to consciously not use?
But more than that- yeah. Without the power to back him up, he would have just been a pretty normal guy. Clever sometimes? Sure. Still a pretty horrible person? Well yeah, probably, but he would have at least had to learn how to put up with other people to some extent, how to function in society if not enjoy or like it.

And that's the scary part about Kilgrave and the story. The villain isn't some evil world devouring mastermind from the stars, he's a guy who happened to get powers and had the desire to use them.

Jeri is one of the big ways this is underlined in the show. Jeri is a foil, a comparison to our villain. Think about the little segments that pop up for her. What gets emphasized, what happens. We see things like- Jeri discarding a lover rather carelessly, Jeri focusing her attention on someone new who caught her attention, Jeri having forgotten or dismissed the significance of things meaningful to her partner, while claiming them for herself, Jeri being stingy and cutthroat in divorce negotiations. Jeri's manipulation and control being emphasized as her defining trait.
One telling moment is when this side plot finally collides with the main plot. Wendy is horrified at Jeri's actions, Kilgrave surprised but approving. "Pragmatic," he says.
Think about when Jeri talks about Kilgrave's powers. How she wants to use them to her own benefit.
And now imagine if Kilgrave was powerless. Imagine if Jeri had Kilgrave's powers. I can very, very easily see them swapping roles- Kilgrave with a background where he had to learn to deal with people because he had no powers. Jeri where she could just tell people what to do and they obeyed. Kilgrave would have been forced to learn to function minimally in society and manipulate to get what he wanted, while Jeri wouldn't have had to bother.

In short, there is this sort of theme in the show that makes it important for Kilgrave not to be the supervillain. Because part of what the show wants is to bring that threat, that danger home. To point out that this is all a big metaphor, that Kilgrave isn't some made up threat from beyond the stars, but rather something that actually exists- just exaggerated for the purposes of story.


(Similarly, this is why I'm glad they didn't make him purple. Not only is that kinda silly, but painting him purple makes him a bit more alien and inhuman, and being inhuman isn't what they want for this story. Green is good for the hulk, because it emphasizes 'monster' instead of 'dude who consumed way too many steroids.' Purple is bad for Kilgrave here, because it pushes him further from normal.)

[dancrilis]

Personally I was kindof hoping for an anticlimax where Doctor Doom swoops in an saves the day by creating Emperor Doom - but that might just have been me.

Seperately Kidgrave did have a point about not being a rapist, or responsible for the actions people took after he asked them to undertake them.

Jessica was asked to kill a woman and she did, didn't like it and simply stopped listening to him - with no explanation given. If she could do that than maybe she should have stopped listening before she killed the woman - or when she didn't want to have sex, or whenever she wanted.
Maybe everyone else should have also.

With no explanation given 'hey she developed antibodies to the virus', 'her powers finally adapted and fought it off' etc, just 'and now he has pushed her to far' - that makes it her fault (and everyone elses) for acting on his words, not really his for speaking them (if you believe in free speech anyway).

I could have accepted the fought off the virus via her abilities unstated - if it did not seem such a snap change.

[thorgrim29]

Seperately Kidgrave did have a point about not being a rapist, or responsible for the actions people took after he asked them to undertake them.

Jessica was asked to kill a woman and she did, didn't like it and simply stopped listening to him - with no explanation given. If she could do that than maybe she should have stopped listening before she killed the woman - or when she didn't want to have sex, or whenever she wanted.
Maybe everyone else should have also.


That's like saying the bad guy in Kingsman isn't responsible for people beating eachother to death. Do you think Trish was supposed to just stop shooting herself in the head?

The whole point is that Jessica is the only one who can resist him (and Luke to a much lesser extent, hinting that it has something to do with the company that did the experiments and funded Kevin's parents). It's not known exactly why he can't control her anymore, but it seems the trigger was forcing her to kill someone as this was something completely against her nature (the ease with which she kills him is a sign of how much he screwed her up). Eating good food, having sex, travelling around, I assume stealing stuff and beating people up, she hated because it was against her will but nothing was against her fundamental nature, killing was.

[McStabbington]

I don't think Kilgrave is meant to be a supervillainous mastermind, and I also think its better than he's not, at least for this version of the story.

Part of what I think made this story was that you could kinda see where Kilgrave came from. Not in the sense that he was reasonable or that he had a speck of good in him, but that you could see how someone with that power could get twisted very, very quickly. The power to make anyone obey? A power that you had to consciously not use?
But more than that- yeah. Without the power to back him up, he would have just been a pretty normal guy. Clever sometimes? Sure. Still a pretty horrible person? Well yeah, probably, but he would have at least had to learn how to put up with other people to some extent, how to function in society if not enjoy or like it.

And that's the scary part about Kilgrave and the story. The villain isn't some evil world devouring mastermind from the stars, he's a guy who happened to get powers and had the desire to use them.

Jeri is one of the big ways this is underlined in the show. Jeri is a foil, a comparison to our villain. Think about the little segments that pop up for her. What gets emphasized, what happens. We see things like- Jeri discarding a lover rather carelessly, Jeri focusing her attention on someone new who caught her attention, Jeri having forgotten or dismissed the significance of things meaningful to her partner, while claiming them for herself, Jeri being stingy and cutthroat in divorce negotiations. Jeri's manipulation and control being emphasized as her defining trait.
One telling moment is when this side plot finally collides with the main plot. Wendy is horrified at Jeri's actions, Kilgrave surprised but approving. "Pragmatic," he says.
Think about when Jeri talks about Kilgrave's powers. How she wants to use them to her own benefit.
And now imagine if Kilgrave was powerless. Imagine if Jeri had Kilgrave's powers. I can very, very easily see them swapping roles- Kilgrave with a background where he had to learn to deal with people because he had no powers. Jeri where she could just tell people what to do and they obeyed. Kilgrave would have been forced to learn to function minimally in society and manipulate to get what he wanted, while Jeri wouldn't have had to bother.

In short, there is this sort of theme in the show that makes it important for Kilgrave not to be the supervillain. Because part of what the show wants is to bring that threat, that danger home. To point out that this is all a big metaphor, that Kilgrave isn't some made up threat from beyond the stars, but rather something that actually exists- just exaggerated for the purposes of story.


(Similarly, this is why I'm glad they didn't make him purple. Not only is that kinda silly, but painting him purple makes him a bit more alien and inhuman, and being inhuman isn't what they want for this story. Green is good for the hulk, because it emphasizes 'monster' instead of 'dude who consumed way too many steroids.' Purple is bad for Kilgrave here, because it pushes him further from normal.)

This. This. This.

You can expand out that metaphor, because it suffuses the entire show. Nuke's behavior towards Jessica and Trish. Trish's mother. Jeri. Robyn with her brother Reuben. Over and over again, the show shows not just how monstrous and evil abusive behavior is, but how banal it is and how willing people are to write it off if it's just in the context of a mother-child relationship, or a brother-sister relationship, or just a casual hookup relationship, or just part of being an effective attorney. Kilgrave may happen to be the one with powers, and as a consequence may happen to have the highest body count, he's just on the farthest end of a curve that we only seem bothered by when we get to the far end of. That's why Kilgrave isn't special: because that would undermine the entire point that he is exceptional only to the degree of his behavior, not the kind of behavior he engages in. At the end of the day, that's exactly the reason why he can hide in plain sight in the world without groups like SHIELD taking an interest in him.

The exceptional ones, the real heroes, are the people who can suffer through the effects of that manipulation and still want to help others and be kind at the other end. It is not an accident that the people who come out at the end looking the best are Trish, Malcolm and Luke.

[Carl]

This. This. This.

Which has nothing to do with the point being made. So uh, yeah.

[Reddish Mage]

That's like saying the bad guy in Kingsman isn't responsible for people beating eachother to death. Do you think Trish was supposed to just stop shooting herself in the head?

The whole point is that Jessica is the only one who can resist him (and Luke to a much lesser extent, hinting that it has something to do with the company that did the experiments and funded Kevin's parents). It's not known exactly why he can't control her anymore, but it seems the trigger was forcing her to kill someone as this was something completely against her nature (the ease with which she kills him is a sign of how much he screwed her up). Eating good food, having sex, travelling around, I assume stealing stuff and beating people up, she hated because it was against her will but nothing was against her fundamental nature, killing was.


Jessica explicitly suggest that killing was what let her snap out of it. However we see plenty of people kill or commit suicide or do you extraordinarily grotesque things and not be able to help themselves.

I failed to see how the question has to do with whether Kilgrave is responsible. Kilgrave is responsible. Per the show nobody within this show (except Kilgrave) ever questions the matter. Legally he's either in a position of compelling or outright physically forcing the action. And morally, is not a topic of forum conversation, not that it would be a hard decision.

On related note why have we abandoned spoiler boxes already? Its too late to go back after this many pages but I know some of us have seen the entire series in the first week (I blame the girlfriend, not that I protested mind you...much), but I'm sure a good portion of the population doesn't binge a whole series Thanksgiving weekend.

[Dragonexx]

So I finished this. And I liked it. Not to the degree of daredevil, but it was still very good. Although, throughout this, I still have to remind myself that this takes place in the same universe as Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and even Avengers. References to the other works are actually kinda shocking and jarring. It was the same way with daredevil as well.

[Lizard Lord]

So I finished this. And I liked it. Not to the degree of daredevil, but it was still very good. Although, throughout this, I still have to remind myself that this takes place in the same universe as Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and even Avengers. References to the other works are actually kinda shocking and jarring. It was the same way with daredevil as well.
Consistency of tone in a single story or series is important, but consistency of tone in the shared universe is not. In fact different stories their own drastically different tones in the same fictional Universe is what makes the MCU feel like an actual, well, Universe. Does that make sense?

[Giggling Ghast]

It gets weirder when you consider there's also a lot of weird magical **** going on in the Marvel universe that hasn't even really been touched on, aside from some nods to the Hand in Daredevil. 'Course, now they're working on Doctor Strange ...

It's a big universe with heroes operating at every level. It's important to explore narratives of different kinds, though; too often the criticism I hear of the MCAU is that it's it "all dudes in capes punching each other."

[Carl]

Does that make sense?

Yes but at the same time if your going to tell a particular type of story it helps to not make one aspect your showing seem trivial. I don't feel killgrave was that bad, but i do understand that others could feel that way, which is what i've been trying to explain. He works within his own show but after kingpin people were expecting a villain who whilst limited in some fashion to jessica's level, was badass enough to actually stand as a serious threat if that was taken away.

Kingpin was basically loki without the superpowers in many ways. And as such with access to enough power could throw a threat at the avengers that would seriously test them, hell if he planned for dealing with them and absolutely had to he could probably have given them a non-trivial challenge even without superpowers given what we saw. Killgrave was theoretically powerful enough to threaten the avengers allready, though not to the degree of Loki, but he was so terrible at using that power that he couldn't have been very effective over any length of time, his surprise factor is the danger, not his actual raw power. What you ended up with was a threat that whilst jessica could trivially beat him in the end, was only threatening on a very small level to the rest of the MCU.

And this comes back to my first paragraph, some people feel this robbed him of a lot of his impact because he's basically too weak to really threaten anyone but Jessica.

[Lizard Lord]

Yes but at the same time if your going to tell a particular type of story it helps to not make one aspect your showing seem trivial. I don't feel killgrave was that bad, but i do understand that others could feel that way, which is what i've been trying to explain. He works within his own show but after kingpin people were expecting a villain who whilst limited in some fashion to jessica's level, was badass enough to actually stand as a serious threat if that was taken away.

Kingpin was basically loki without the superpowers in many ways. And as such with access to enough power could throw a threat at the avengers that would seriously test them, hell if he planned for dealing with them and absolutely had to he could probably have given them a non-trivial challenge even without superpowers given what we saw. Killgrave was theoretically powerful enough to threaten the avengers allready, though not to the degree of Loki, but he was so terrible at using that power that he couldn't have been very effective over any length of time, his surprise factor is the danger, not his actual raw power. What you ended up with was a threat that whilst jessica could trivially beat him in the end, was only threatening on a very small level to the rest of the MCU.

And this comes back to my first paragraph, some people feel this robbed him of a lot of his impact because he's basically too weak to really threaten anyone but Jessica.

Ummmm....okay? I feel like I just got dragged into an argument I wasn't actually a part of.


too often the criticism I hear of the MCAU is that it's it "all dudes in capes punching each other."

Which is also something this show helps with. :smallbiggrin:

[Clertar]

My view of Kilgrave is pretty much the way I found it addressed here:

Kilgrave doesn’t want the world or the Infinity Gauntlet. Heck, at times he might just want a sandwich and a good place to watch a soccer match. But it is how he goes about getting what he wants that makes him one of the scariest Marvel bad guys put on screen. His power of suggestion can’t be refused. His sinister ways are matched only by his calm, because he knows no one can say no to him.

Then there’s Jessica Jones – the one who got away. Singularly obsessed, he begins a slow hunt by watching her with other sets of eyes, and getting into Jessica’s head without using his powers.

http://www.newsobserver.com/entertainment/tv/article46933435.html

[Reddish Mage]

I don't see how you can say Kilgrave is small threat that be a danger to any other superhero. His power cannot be refused, the Avengers would be in far more trouble if he went up against them, because he could pit them against each other and they cannot refuse his commands which is a defense that only Jessica is confirmed to have in the MCU.

The fact that Kilgrave lacks Thanos-level aims is meaningless, he could easily have a reason to pursue bigger aims in the right story, but really, the fact that Kilgrave is just an evil prick who casually kills and tortures without inhibition is what really gives him his ability to terrorize.

I said it before but, other villains can be predictable, they have specific aims. Kilgrave indulges whims and his attitude can change on a dime. That what makes Kilgrave more dangerous and more scary than Thanos, not less.

[Carl]

I don't see how you can say Kilgrave is small threat that be a danger to any other superhero. His power cannot be refused, the Avengers would be in far more trouble if he went up against them, because he could pit them against each other and they cannot refuse his commands

Going wit the full past + present list:

2 are immune once they're aware, (iron man and war machine), not to mention the Iron Legion in the same category.

2 more are probably the strongest candidates of all for being immune and have their own mind powers that mean once they are aware of his threat they only have to approach him in a way he's not aware of and they can take him over.

If they're willing to risk the failsafe potential Romanov and Barton can take him out from long range. Coulson has people who can do that for him.

That only leaves cap, (based on what we see his metabolism should either make him immune or break the effect very rapidly), and falcon.

Thor is totally up in the air, but given the vast different biology it would be downright moronic for it to work on him.


Could killgrave, (if we laughably assume the bearer of the infinity stone would be vulnerable to him), give the avengers a hard time. Yeah. But he failed to demonstrate the kind of total attention to every little detail stuff needed to take and hold permanent control, including in the face of the likely military response of the rest of the world to the avengers being under his thumb. At the end of the day there's no way he could hold the avengers under his thumb, and once they get out from under it, (or even certain members, he's toast. Totally and utterly toast.

[Chirios]

That's like saying the bad guy in Kingsman isn't responsible for people beating eachother to death. Do you think Trish was supposed to just stop shooting herself in the head?

The whole point is that Jessica is the only one who can resist him (and Luke to a much lesser extent, hinting that it has something to do with the company that did the experiments and funded Kevin's parents). It's not known exactly why he can't control her anymore, but it seems the trigger was forcing her to kill someone as this was something completely against her nature (the ease with which she kills him is a sign of how much he screwed her up). Eating good food, having sex, travelling around, I assume stealing stuff and beating people up, she hated because it was against her will but nothing was against her fundamental nature, killing was.

I always figured it was just 'cause he stayed with her too long. Eventually the virus stopped working because her body adjusted and began producing antibodies and the killing was just a coincidence.

[Kitten Champion]

I always figured it was just 'cause he stayed with her too long. Eventually the virus stopped working because her body adjusted and began producing antibodies and the killing was just a coincidence.

That was my presumption as well, he never tapped the same well for so long because people were largely interchangeable tools he could use and toss aside before Jessica. With the one exception of his parents, perhaps, but they were weakened by their relationship influencing their mental state and neither possessing an altered physiology with enhanced healing capabilities to speed the process along.

[Dienekes]

The argument that Kilgrave isn't a threat for the Avengers isn't a particularly good one, in my opinion. He's not (his powers are a disease, Cap's immune, Tony is in an air-tight suit, Thor's immune, Hulk... in the comic's he'd be immune in the movies who knows?). But that's not the point. What's important is if he's a threat to Jessica.

Take Kingpin and Ward. Any of the Avengers except maybe Falcon would be able to take down both of them. But they work because for the hero they're facing up against they can put them through their paces and can seem a legitimate threat.

For the first few episodes when Kilgrave was shrouded in mystery he most definitely seemed a threat to Jessica. But somewhere along the way, as his personality is explored, and he keeps being beaten or sent escaping by the actions of others rather than his own deviousness his threat slowly declines until killing him became a forgone conclusion. Simpson himself could have killed him, what, four times? But he was stopped not because Kilgrave was a great threat, but because Jessica had her plans she placed as more important than getting rid of the main villain.

[Kitten Champion]

The argument that Kilgrave isn't a threat for the Avengers isn't a particularly good one, in my opinion. He's not (his powers are a disease, Cap's immune, Tony is in an air-tight suit, Thor's immune, Hulk... in the comic's he'd be immune in the movies who knows?). But that's not the point. What's important is if he's a threat to Jessica..

Yeah. It's like saying the Joker - or most of anyone from Batman's rogues gallery - is an inadequate villain because he's not a Justice League-level threat. You could make that argument about most any individual superheroes' rogues if you want. After all, no one wants a hero who's constantly required to call upon other heroes to deal with the conflicts in their own comics.

[Kid Jake]

After all, no one wants a hero who's constantly required to call upon other heroes to deal with the conflicts in their own comics.

I now want to see a guy whose 'superpower' is that he has the Justice League's phone number.

"Hey Superman, there's this hostage situation...yeah at the bank this time. I mean, I could probably handle it but there's no way at least half of them aren't going to die. No, no, you stay in Metropolis; I mean what's twenty lives compared to the 30 second flight over right? Oh...you will? Thanks Supes, I owe you one."

*2 minutes later*

"We owe you another debt of gratitude Well-ConnectedMan!"

[BRC]

I now want to see a guy whose 'superpower' is that he has the Justice League's phone number.

"Hey Superman, there's this hostage situation...yeah at the bank this time. I mean, I could probably handle it but there's no way at least half of them aren't going to die. No, no, you stay in Metropolis; I mean what's twenty lives compared to the 30 second flight over right? Oh...you will? Thanks Supes, I owe you one."

*2 minutes later*

"We owe you another debt of gratitude Well-ConnectedMan!"
That was kind of Oracle's thing?

That and superhacking/general intelligence and detective skills. But there were a few moments where her greatest weapon is her rolladex.

[DiscipleofBob]

There's an awful lot of assumptions that certain Avengers would be immune to Kilgrave just because they have superhuman immune systems or something similar. When Kilgrave controlling Avengers happened with regularity in the comics, and even in the show Earth's Mightiest Heroes. All a superhuman immune system does for the Netflix version is allow someone to eventually build an immunity if they're enthralled for a long period of time. Say, weeks, even months. This isn't a common cold we're talking about here.

It obviously won't ever happen in this universe, but of Kilgrave were to encounter Stark, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, or any of the Avengers or other MCU characters, he could very well be able to control them. There's no reason to assume he can't. Remember, the last Avengers movie we got had the team absolutely wrecked by mind-screwery. Even Vision might not be immune since the MCU has him be at least partially biological.

At the same time, if one or more of these factors DID make at least one of the Avengers immune, that would be believable as well, the same way Stark's arc reactor somehow blocked Loki's mind control. It's really a toss up.

[Dienekes]

In the show, it is specifically declared that Purple Man's powers come from a virus. This is different than his comic-book interpretation, which is pheromones with a bit of psychic mumbo jumbo thrown in that honestly didn't make much sense, but whatever, it's comic book science.

Characters that are immune to disease (Cap and Thor being two of them) would therefore be immune to this version of Purple Man.

[DiscipleofBob]

In the show, it is specifically declared that Purple Man's powers come from a virus. This is different than his comic-book interpretation, which is pheromones with a bit of psychic mumbo jumbo thrown in that honestly didn't make much sense, but whatever, it's comic book science.

Characters that are immune to disease (Cap and Thor being two of them) would therefore be immune to this version of Purple Man.

Really? Are you certain they're completely immune to all forms of disease? Even when it's some sort of supervirus that controls even supers like Jessica Jones and Luke Cage without any problems? We know they're not going to get any mundane disease, but that doesn't guarantee they'd be immune to Kilgrave.

[Dienekes]

Really? Are you certain they're completely immune to all forms of disease? Even when it's some sort of supervirus that controls even supers like Jessica Jones and Luke Cage without any problems? We know they're not going to get any mundane disease, but that doesn't guarantee they'd be immune to Kilgrave.

An Asgardian definitely is. And Cap's immune systems work so fast it's impossible for him to even get tipsy. It is much more powerful than Jessica's (who's drunk all the damn time) and she grew an immunity.

That's not even getting into the characters that would just not be exposed due to their suits, namely Iron Man. In short, I'd be very willing to place a large sum of my money that in the cinematic universe the Avengers would beat Kilgrave very easily.

Assuming they don't just ignore the established canon to do what they want with the story. That does happen.

[Kitten Champion]

While I'm not a fictional virologist, I'd imagine the virus would be of the plot convenient sort.

[DiscipleofBob]

An Asgardian definitely is. And Cap's immune systems work so fast it's impossible for him to even get tipsy. It is much more powerful than Jessica's (who's drunk all the damn time) and she grew an immunity.

That's not even getting into the characters that would just not be exposed due to their suits, namely Iron Man. In short, I'd be very willing to place a large sum of my money that in the cinematic universe the Avengers would beat Kilgrave very easily.

Assuming they don't just ignore the established canon to do what they want with the story. That does happen.

Possible either way. I'd wager that if they, say, brought back Kilgrave and faced him off the Avengers, they'd let Kilgrave mind control the majority of them. They'd just maybe wear off the effects sooner. But I don't think there's any reason to assume that just because certain characters are immune to disease they'd be immune to Kilgrave, even if this universe explains his powers as somehow viral. I wouldn't even guarantee Iron Man's suit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it protected him as well.

Alternatively, Stark could just blast ACDC on his entrance and render Kilgrave useless.

[Avilan the Grey]

I have only watched episode 1 so far.

Not... sure how I feel about it.
I mean I know it's gritty. Anything set in Hell's Kitchen is gritty according to Marvel. But though I find the character (the main one, at least) and the acting good... The rest is Meh.
Seriously, this kind of topic is not really interesting to me. I am more of a Captain America / Power Girl / She-Hulk kind of guy than a Daredevil / Punisher / Batman kind of person. Although I must say that after the discussions and reviews... I expected the first episode to be even creepier than it is; it was rather predicable. Including the elevator thing.

[Reddish Mage]

You know, I lived in Hell's Kitchen and ate at Five Napkin Burger all the time. It's a nice place IRL.

[Carl]

@DiscipleofBob: That's kinda why i hedged my bets, but honestly, the idea that the bearer of the infinity stone or someone with a on-human biology would be vulnerable i find very hard to accept. Yes Wanda gave them a hard time recently, but her powers are a completely different source that reasonably has no basis in any specific biology. Likewise it's possible tony or war machine wouldn't go in with the full NBC stuff up, but if they do they're immune. And so on and so forth. Also as i pointed out you have to be in the same air as him and he has to be aware of you. Several of the avengers can be near enough to act against him without fitting those requirements.


@Kitten_Champion & Dienekes:

Remember before i start that i'm explaining my understanding of things others are saying, it's not something i agree with entirely, (i think there's a degree of point but not to an extent that detracts from my enjoyment).

Basically what it boils down to is that someone's emotional reaction to a villain can be dependent on the threat level of the villain in universe combined with the perception of getting caught up in their scheme's.

To use an analog:

Thanos is basically you big terrible stalin or hitler grade war criminal.

Rhonan is more the low level war criminal like countless serbian military and political members from years more recently past.

Loki, Ultron, e.t.c. are basically serial killers on the loose, or a gang lord.

Stane, Killian, (Iron man 3, spelling may be off), are basically average joe murderers.

Kingpin is basically a street level gang member. Not super threatening, but the knowledge that if given the chance he can and will climb up the ladder adds a certain element of fear to him.

Killgrave is basically a petty thief who maybe does a bit of armed robbery on the side with no prospect of going anywhere else.


The upper levels of that list are scary to people because whilst their even less common than the petty thief, if they do show up they're so much more dangerous, (and the MCU has conditioned us to see them as more common than the killgrave's), that if push comes to shove you'd rather deal with killgrave. By IRL standards killgrave is hjorrifying, by the standards of the MCU he's sedate and not a particularly scary individual. And it's the lack of scare factor that's making some people basically go meh.

[McStabbington]

@DiscipleofBob: That's kinda why i hedged my bets, but honestly, the idea that the bearer of the infinity stone or someone with a on-human biology would be vulnerable i find very hard to accept. Yes Wanda gave them a hard time recently, but her powers are a completely different source that reasonably has no basis in any specific biology. Likewise it's possible tony or war machine wouldn't go in with the full NBC stuff up, but if they do they're immune. And so on and so forth. Also as i pointed out you have to be in the same air as him and he has to be aware of you. Several of the avengers can be near enough to act against him without fitting those requirements.


@Kitten_Champion & Dienekes:

Remember before i start that i'm explaining my understanding of things others are saying, it's not something i agree with entirely, (i think there's a degree of point but not to an extent that detracts from my enjoyment).

Basically what it boils down to is that someone's emotional reaction to a villain can be dependent on the threat level of the villain in universe combined with the perception of getting caught up in their scheme's.

To use an analog:

Thanos is basically you big terrible stalin or hitler grade war criminal.

Rhonan is more the low level war criminal like countless serbian military and political members from years more recently past.

Loki, Ultron, e.t.c. are basically serial killers on the loose, or a gang lord.

Stane, Killian, (Iron man 3, spelling may be off), are basically average joe murderers.

Kingpin is basically a street level gang member. Not super threatening, but the knowledge that if given the chance he can and will climb up the ladder adds a certain element of fear to him.

Killgrave is basically a petty thief who maybe does a bit of armed robbery on the side with no prospect of going anywhere else.


The upper levels of that list are scary to people because whilst their even less common than the petty thief, if they do show up they're so much more dangerous, (and the MCU has conditioned us to see them as more common than the killgrave's), that if push comes to shove you'd rather deal with killgrave. By IRL standards killgrave is hjorrifying, by the standards of the MCU he's sedate and not a particularly scary individual. And it's the lack of scare factor that's making some people basically go meh.

I get that you personally tie power level and threat level, but all the same that's . . . not really a great analogy. A much better analogy is right here on the boards: Thanos is Tier 1 with 9th level spells. All Kilgrave has is Charm Person, Dominate, a lot of Charisma and maxed diplomacy/bluff, which might put him at Tier 3. Ergo, Thanos is more dangerous than Kilgrave.

The response is that, much like Prestidigitation, you can do a lot of damage with just infinite, unblockable Charm Persons, and Kilgrave is redeeming only in that he's not as savvy as some of the player characters on these boards. Basically, he's built like a standard succubus or erinyes, and those can make perfectly diabolical campaign villains if you know what you're doing as a DM.

[Phobia]

Petty thief? Umm I think you mean rapist.

[Carl]

Petty thief? Umm I think you mean rapist.

Not be the standards of the other MCU villains. It's an analogy. Killgrave's crimes in terms of threat level by the standards of every other MCU villain are trivial bordering on irellevent.

@McStabbington:

Except for the part where this isn't about what the players can enjoy but what the people watching the end result can enjoy. Which is what this comes back to. Some people find watching a villain who's so much less dangerous when they know there's so much more dangerous foes out there not especially entertaining.

[Phobia]

Kilgrave is exactly a rapist tho, sure he steals, but that's far less on his plate of crimes than the obvious. Even people he doesn't actually rape describe it as so violating that it's pretty much the same. And it doesn't matter if there are, say, terrorists trying to blow up the world, a rapist running around is still a major threat to everyone in the vicinity. It's definitely much more personal.

It's hard to follow the train of logic of someone who wants to blow up the world, it's much more realistic to have some random dude who gets mind control powers to start doing whatever he wants. Which is the obvious. That's a much easier train of logic to follow and a much more personal one.

Just because Darkseid is coming and planning to destroy the universe doesn't mean Batman doesn't have to stop the Joker first. He'll still fight both of them.

[steppedonad4]

Some people find watching a villain who's so much less dangerous when they know there's so much more dangerous foes out there not especially entertaining.

Simple things entertain simple minds.

[Carl]

Phobia:

Analogy.

Look it up. it's helpful.

[Telonius]

To take another analogy...

Kilgrave : Thanos : : Umbridge : Voldemort

One thing that makes Kilgrave super-creepy is that (at least to many people) we feel like we've met him. He's that creepy guy that keeps victimizing people who can't find the strength to say no to him; and nobody believes them when they talk about him. He's such a master of manipulation that, even without his powers available to him, he manages to convince Jessica to go back with him to her childhood home, that he bought for the sole purpose of being in control of the one place in her memory that she felt safest.

I agree with a lot of the comments about "not being able to form relationships." They played him as a straight-up, for-real sociopath, and David Tennant really did his homework on that.

[GloatingSwine]

I think it's more useful to say that it's more important for the stakes to be important to the character than for the stakes to be arbitrarily high.

It literally does not matter that Kilgrave is a "small threat" to the world at large, the story isn't about the world at large, the story is about Jessica Jones, and Kilgrave has the power to turn her life inside out even without his actual superpower working on her.

That's what makes interesting drama, not "zomg teh world might get blowed up".

[steppedonad4]

Dude can walk into a police station and tell all the cops in there to kill themselves or each other. Or go on a murderous rampage throughout the city. You know. For ****s and giggles.

Not a big threat. Huh?

[Carl]

Not a big threat. Huh?

Nope. Not next too all the bad guys who can mess up entire cities at a time.

[Lvl45DM!]

Dude can walk into a police station and tell all the cops in there to kill themselves or each other. Or go on a murderous rampage throughout the city. You know. For ****s and giggles.

Not a big threat. Huh?

Compared to Loki with his Chitauri Army, Ultron with his Ultron army, Malekith hopped up on Aether, Roland the Accuser with his epic Wipe-out-all-life-on-this-planet-Hammer, hell even Glowing Heat Mandarin with his Glowing Hot Army,

No. The single dude without an agenda isn't that big of a threat. Neither is Wilson Fisk. Thats why they are taken out by street level heroes. These dudes can't destroy the world, or even a country. They would struggle, and have to ply all of their resources to severely damage a city.

To you, personally, the difference between being wiped out by asteroid or killing yourself via mindcontrol is small. But it affects the threat level.

[BWR]

Dude can walk into a police station and tell all the cops in there to kill themselves or each other. Or go on a murderous rampage throughout the city. You know. For ****s and giggles.

Not a big threat. Huh?

One deaf guy with a weapon and he's history. Or someone who doesn't understand English. Or someone with a ranged weapon. Or someone just walking past and pulling out a concealed weapon and killing him (you know, like how he was captured). Or a random space rock falling on him.

Yes, mind-control like that is very nice if used properly but he's not on the threat level of 'will destroy the planet if mishandled' or 'extinction level event'. Once identified he's pretty easy to handle, especially if you don't mind collateral. Yes, he's a horrible person and it's a terrible thing for anyone directly affected by him but ultimately Kilgrave is small fry, and you can, from the POV of most major organizations, ignore him because the damage he does is frankly minimal compared to the things they usually handle. If someone like HYDRA got hold of him and wielded him properly it would be very scary.

Edit: Hiruma'd twice.

[Carl]

Neither is Wilson Fisk.

Yes an no. As i pointed out he demonstrated the savviness to be a major league threat if he had access to the right resources. He was limited by his lack. Killgrave with far more power is in fact even less dangerous than Fisk actually was.

[dancrilis]

In fairness to Kilgrave's powers (and as a detriment to the man himself) he could be a global threat.

1. Win at poker - take a few million.
2. Setup a company.
3. Hire a researcher to tell you what you need for viral research.
4. Set a meeting with some company employee who can introduce you up the chain of command.
5. Get them to agree a deal with your company to fund your research (into how to expand your powers).
6. With however much million/billion at your disposal begin research in earnest.
7. With expanded powers set up a meeting with some government employee/elected official - use them to move through the chain of command to talk to who you need.
8. Get elected/appointed.
9. Get legislation passed to your own benefit.
10. Meet heads of state.
11. Arrange one world government under you.
12. Profit.

Kilgrave had the power to undertake a similar plan to the one above (altered as needed to account for protective measures that some people might have) - what he lacked was the mentality to go down that route, partly because his goal was 'get girlfriend' rather than 'conquer world'.

[Carl]

what he lacked was the mentality to go down that route

That was my entire point of contrasting him with Fisk ;). He's not got the kind of planning and patience, and especially attention to every last damn detail to be that successful. What it boils down to is Fisk has the will but not the means, Killgrave has the means but not the will. But someone with Will but no means who is as ruthless and capable as Fisk is capable of acquiring the means subject to getting the right pieces of info. Overcoming pattern of thought faults is much harder.

[Lizard Lord]

Why look down on Kilgrave for not being as powerful/dangerous of a villain as other MCU villains (and are we really including villains that required all of the Avengers to thwart?) but not on Jessica for not being as powerful/skilled of a hero as some Avengers?


Of course doing either seems silly to me. This isn't an Avengers story, it is a Jessica Jones story. It is Street Level. It is smaller scale by design. The only MCU villains that Kilgrave should be compared to is fellow MCU street level villains, and so far that only includes Kingpin. Now sure, Kingpin is more skilled and ambitious than Kilgrave, but Kilgrave's powers make him just as big of a threat to people in general. It is only due to Jessica's immunity that she was able to defeat Kilgrave at all. (Since this Kilgrave is virus based I doubt Daredevil would be immune. Mind you I don't really get why Daredevil is immune in the comics, but it doesn't matter anymore.)

[Dienekes]

Why look down on Kilgrave for not being as powerful/dangerous of a villain as other MCU villains (and are we really including villains that required all of the Avengers to thwart?) but not on Jessica for not being as powerful/skilled of a hero as some Avengers?


Of course doing either seems silly to me. This isn't an Avengers story, it is a Jessica Jones story. It is Street Level. It is smaller scale by design. The only MCU villains that Kilgrave should be compared to is fellow MCU street level villains, and so far that only includes Kingpin. Now sure, Kingpin is more skilled and ambitious than Kilgrave, but Kilgrave's powers make him just as big of a threat to people in general. It is only due to Jessica's immunity that she was able to defeat Kilgrave at all. (Since this Kilgrave is virus based I doubt Daredevil would be immune. Mind you I don't really get why Daredevil is immune in the comics, but it doesn't matter anymore.)

Actually, that's the part where I feel that leaves Kilgrave behind a bit as a villain. It wasn't because of her immunity that Jessica was able to defeat Kilgrave. At least, not until the very end. She had ample opportunities to kill him. Simpson had ample opportunities to kill him, but they didn't for their own reasons.

It'd be something else if they didn't kill him because Kilgrave masterminded some amazing problem where they couldn't kill him, and to be fair he does that a few times on a very small scale, but nothing that lasts more than a scene. It was the heroes (and their lawyer) acting on their own that let him live for so long.

Which is it, he's not really main villain material. He'd be an exceptional side-villain. He'd be amazing at that. I think the comparison to him with Umbridge somewhere upthread and I think it's fairly apt. They're not particularly smart, or complex characters, but they have their taste of power and they're going to abuse it for all they're worth. But Umbridge was never made the main villain of the Potterverse, she doesn't have the scope to pull it off. Even in her primary book she's a sub-villain, a perfectly memorable roadblock on the way to actually accomplishing the heroes' goals.

As written, that's where I would have put Kilgrave. He is a powerful nuisance, but not much else. If the show was about 5-6 episodes long he would have served his purpose well, creepy, powerful, has a hold on Jessica and she gets to reveal how pathetic he is when she beats him. But, after 12 episodes, we've learned how pathetic he is a long time ago, we know he isn't mentally equipped to be more than a minor threat to Jessica, we know his power doesn't even work on her. By the end it's just some busy work to beat him and the tension is pretty much lost.

It's no surprise that Jessica does finally beat Kilgrave with a ploy a 5 year old could have seen through. And for all my complaints that scene was very well done, but it shows what kind of threat Kilgrave actually is. She could have killed him at any time, but she has to wait for him to do something idiotic like telling all the people he's controlled to stop fighting each other. Which of course he does, because he's not all that smart and he doesn't realize that his best bet is to order everyone to shoot Jessica and leave. Which he could have done at any time.

[Carl]

Why look down on Kilgrave for not being as powerful/dangerous of a villain as other MCU villains (and are we really including villains that required all of the Avengers to thwart?) but not on Jessica for not being as powerful/skilled of a hero as some Avengers?


I think that's exactly what people are doing via Killgrave. Fisk as i noted allready was always a potentially bigger threat subject to the right resources and depending on his vulnerability to hacking could well have given the Avengers at least a non-trivial time defeating him despite lacking anything approaching killgrave power simply because of how he did his PR stuff to make himself unavailable till his masquerade got broken.

Where's Killgrave could have been taken by any number of other individuals if push came to shove.

If you will Fisk was hard to take down and lasted so long because he was that good that he made taking him down hard. Killgrave was easy to take down and only lasted so long because Jessica lacked the will to do so.

For Fisk the Drama was in how the hero would find the chinks in his armour and use those, (whatever they were), to take him down. For Killgrave it was a question of what circumstances would finally push jessica to finish him off for good.

One generates a lot more dramatic tension than the other.

My gut instinct is to say it probably comes back to the fact that a not insignificant part of viewers get their fun from watching how things unfold without having any emotional attachment to the characters. Personally i found the most recent AoS episode pretty hard to watch and points and it's been preying on my mind because whilst the circumstances where nowhere near that bad, i know exactly how helpless Fitz felt from my own past. It isn't helping my ongoing mood swing issue's i'll admit. But it's fairly well known, (and in large part why summer blockbuster minimum plot action flicks are so successful), that a significant chunk of viewers enjoy shows with minimal or no emotional attachment and Killgrave entire scare factor as well as a lot of the entertainment value of the show are derived from forming emotional attachments to the people hurt.

[dancrilis]

My primary problem with Kilgrave was not even with him directly it was that he was only a threat because the heroes were morons.

Lets put me in the scene to advise the heroes.

Jessica: We need him alive to save Hope.
Simpson: He is too dangerous to let live - I can shoot him dead.
Jessica: We don't know what contingencies he might have, and we need to save Hope.
Simpson: Ok we will do it your way and kidnap him.
dancrilis: Wait, no - we don't know what contingencies he might have so whether we make him disappear via kidnapping or death is meaningless as they would presumably trigger regardless. Also Hope has a good Lawyer and a likely insanity plea - but even without that Kilgrave is causing the deaths of people daily and ruining lives consistently. So holding him alive for Hope risks many more people than killing him and also doesn't protect anyone. Further he will not be able to stand trail as he will simply order the judge and jury to acquit him - or the guards to release him or whatever, as they will not randomly simply believe that he has these powers, and even if they do he would still be entitled to a fair trail. Finally if Hope is a real concern his dead body might hold the key to his powers and so his influence might be provable which may exonerate her.
Both: Good gods your right.

Had Simpson simply been allowed to shoot Kilgrave instead of knocking him out the whole season would have ended better nearly everyone (including Hope, but possible not including the security personal - who I suppose might have lost their jobs).

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

My primary problem with Kilgrave was not even with him directly it was that he was only a threat because the heroes were morons.

Lets put me in the scene to advise the heroes.

Jessica: We need him alive to save Hope.
Simpson: He is too dangerous to let live - I can shoot him dead.
Jessica: We don't know what contingencies he might have, and we need to save Hope.
Simpson: Ok we will do it your way and kidnap him.
dancrilis: Wait, no - we don't know what contingencies he might have so whether we make him disappear via kidnapping or death is meaningless as they would presumably trigger regardless. Also Hope has a good Lawyer and a likely insanity plea - but even without that Kilgrave is causing the deaths of people daily and ruining lives consistently. So holding him alive for Hope risks many more people than killing him and also doesn't protect anyone. Further he will not be able to stand trail as he will simply order the judge and jury to acquit him - or the guards to release him or whatever, as they will not randomly simply believe that he has these powers, and even if they do he would still be entitled to a fair trail. Finally if Hope is a real concern his dead body might hold the key to his powers and so his influence might be provable which may exonerate her.
Both: Good gods your right.

Had Simpson simply been allowed to shoot Kilgrave instead of knocking him out the whole season would have ended better nearly everyone (including Hope, but possible not including the security personal - who I suppose might have lost their jobs).

I would normally say no... but since in the end it was "I have to kill him" you are right... I mean really we needed shield or ATC or whatever to hold him in the cryo cells that blansky is in...

[Lizard Lord]

Actually, that's the part where I feel that leaves Kilgrave behind a bit as a villain. It wasn't because of her immunity that Jessica was able to defeat Kilgrave. At least, not until the very end. She had ample opportunities to kill him. Simpson had ample opportunities to kill him, but they didn't for their own reasons.

It'd be something else if they didn't kill him because Kilgrave masterminded some amazing problem where they couldn't kill him, and to be fair he does that a few times on a very small scale, but nothing that lasts more than a scene. It was the heroes (and their lawyer) acting on their own that let him live for so long.

Which is it, he's not really main villain material. He'd be an exceptional side-villain. He'd be amazing at that. I think the comparison to him with Umbridge somewhere upthread and I think it's fairly apt. They're not particularly smart, or complex characters, but they have their taste of power and they're going to abuse it for all they're worth. But Umbridge was never made the main villain of the Potterverse, she doesn't have the scope to pull it off. Even in her primary book she's a sub-villain, a perfectly memorable roadblock on the way to actually accomplishing the heroes' goals.

As written, that's where I would have put Kilgrave. He is a powerful nuisance, but not much else. If the show was about 5-6 episodes long he would have served his purpose well, creepy, powerful, has a hold on Jessica and she gets to reveal how pathetic he is when she beats him. But, after 12 episodes, we've learned how pathetic he is a long time ago, we know he isn't mentally equipped to be more than a minor threat to Jessica, we know his power doesn't even work on her. By the end it's just some busy work to beat him and the tension is pretty much lost.

It's no surprise that Jessica does finally beat Kilgrave with a ploy a 5 year old could have seen through. And for all my complaints that scene was very well done, but it shows what kind of threat Kilgrave actually is. She could have killed him at any time, but she has to wait for him to do something idiotic like telling all the people he's controlled to stop fighting each other. Which of course he does, because he's not all that smart and he doesn't realize that his best bet is to order everyone to shoot Jessica and leave. Which he could have done at any time.
While you may be right about Simpson, Jessica only had those opportunities because of her immunity. Kilgrave realized after Jessica first walked away that she had become immune (which I am guessing the incident was too traumatic for Jessica to pick up on that). He was lying about choosing not to use his powers. Heck he was only playing these games in the first place because he couldn't just force Jessica to come back to him.

[Dragonus45]

Actually, that's the part where I feel that leaves Kilgrave behind a bit as a villain. It wasn't because of her immunity that Jessica was able to defeat Kilgrave. At least, not until the very end. She had ample opportunities to kill him. Simpson had ample opportunities to kill him, but they didn't for their own reasons.

It'd be something else if they didn't kill him because Kilgrave masterminded some amazing problem where they couldn't kill him, and to be fair he does that a few times on a very small scale, but nothing that lasts more than a scene. It was the heroes (and their lawyer) acting on their own that let him live for so long.

Which is it, he's not really main villain material. He'd be an exceptional side-villain. He'd be amazing at that. I think the comparison to him with Umbridge somewhere upthread and I think it's fairly apt. They're not particularly smart, or complex characters, but they have their taste of power and they're going to abuse it for all they're worth. But Umbridge was never made the main villain of the Potterverse, she doesn't have the scope to pull it off. Even in her primary book she's a sub-villain, a perfectly memorable roadblock on the way to actually accomplishing the heroes' goals.



Incidently this is the role that the Purple Man has for most of the Alias comic. A background threat and characters whos shadow hangs over everything Jessica does even when it has nothing to do with him but who has very very little screen time.

[McStabbington]

Where's Killgrave could have been taken by any number of other individuals if push came to shove.

If you will Fisk was hard to take down and lasted so long because he was that good that he made taking him down hard. Killgrave was easy to take down and only lasted so long because Jessica lacked the will to do so.


Yes, if Tony Stark knew exactly who Kilgrave was and what he could do, if he had his armor on, if that armor was sealed, and if he was completely willing to write off as collateral damage (which is another way of saying if Tony Stark reverted not only entirely back to the character he was before he got captured in the cave, but to someone who was actively apathetic to human life) whomever Kilgrave had preprogrammed to suicide upon his death, then yes, he could smash Kilgrave like a bug and have done with it.

I believe it was Jayne Cobb who said "I'm smelling a lot of if coming off this plan."


Look, I'm going to be honest: I do not know whether this speaks to you directly, so I won't direct this specifically at you. I will simply say that I think a great deal of the animosity for Kilgrave's villainy has nothing to do with the scale of threat he poses. I think there are plenty of cases where a low-level psychological threat would work plenty well for many of the people objecting to to Kilgrave; I'm pretty sure that I have never, ever, in my entire life heard an objection to the excellent Unbreakable, for example, that centers around the fact that Mr. Glass could never be a threat to David Dunn physically. I think it has to do quite specifically with the fact that some people can not imagine themselves as being victims of Kilgrave, any more than they can imagine themselves as victims of any abuser. I think there are a lot of people who look at abuse victims and say to themselves: these people are victims ultimately because they are weak of will and weak of character. I am neither. Therefore, I can never be an abuse victim.

And I think that the fact that this very attitude is Kilgrave's greatest asset and what allows him to cloak himself from the world annoys the heck out of them.

If this doesn't apply to you, I won't argue the point. But this ultimately is what a lot of the resistance to the character comes down to. Were this a story about a male hero trying to save his girlfriend from the mental domination of a monster, 90% of the criticisms of the character would disappear. And I think that says volumes about how much we needed a story like Jessica Jones and a villain like Kilgrave.

[Clertar]

Hear, hear.

[Carl]

Your spoilered part really does not apply. As i've noted at least once allready whilst i wasn;t on Jessica's level i've been pasted to the proverbial emotional pavement by abuse pretty hard in my past. All i'm doing here is trying to explain other peoples viewpoints because i always try and understand them if i can, (not always possible ofc).

Also your non-spoilered part appears to completely ignore the entire post i allready wrote on the avengers.

To TDLR it:

Ignoring that 2 really should be flat out immune permanently and 2 have a high chance of being immune, only 3 of the Avengers are incapable of dealing with him once they get free, (and Killgrave is too much the ADHD child to hold them permanently), and of those that can only 2 are incapable of dealing with him without killing him. 4 of them once they know the danger can completely flatten him and he's helpless.

And even if somehow he could do all that, unless he runs a successful take over the world ploy first he's going to be dead to a sniper sent by the world governments who won't give a damn about the collateral potential.

Killgrave is at best a short term threat to the avengers. He's incapable of winning for very long because he's just not got the mental capability to run a successful plan against them. He can be outplayed even if he can't be outpowered.

[Lizard Lord]

Y( Killgrave is too much the ADHD child to hold them permanently)

His ADHD didn't kick in for Jessica. She was only able to escape because she developed an immunity.

Which again is why I argue that his power makes him at least as dangerous as the Kingpin. Jessica is what triggered this hunt for Kilgrave. The world at large did not even have rumors to his existence as it was Jessica that caused people to step forth. S.H.I.E.L.D., an organization devoted to dealing with Superhumans, strongly believed that mind control was impossible (as well as telekinesis, telepathy, and pre/postcognition.) Sure this also applies to Scarlet Witch, but she was recently given her powers while Kilgrave has been around for a while. S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't have known about Scarlet Witch until after her creation, where as they simply DIDN'T know about Kilgrave presumably until he made the news.

If Jessica never developed an immunity Kilgrave would likely have never stopped. The Avengers are well known and Kilgrave was already under their radar, there was no reason for him to gain their attention. And if by pure chance he accidentally did gain their attention his whole "using innocents as shields" thing would have worked just as well for most of them that it did for Jessica.

[Carl]

His ADHD didn't kick in for Jessica. She was only able to escape because she developed an immunity.

Because jessica was something her really really wanted. She was more or less the one thing that held his attention completely for an extended period of time.


Your right that he fell below SHIELD's radar, but most of his victims are almost certainly like the restaurant manager from the first episode, they don't even realise they got mind controlled.

[Reddish Mage]

Because jessica was something her really really wanted. She was more or less the one thing that held his attention completely for an extended period of time.


Your right that he fell below SHIELD's radar, but most of his victims are almost certainly like the restaurant manager from the first episode, they don't even realise they got mind controlled.

Kilgrave could operate below the radar until Jessica and Trish publicly called attention to his existence on air. At this point one has to say that SHIELD and whatever else is out there, simply didn't have enough interest, resources or simply doesn't respond quickly enough.

[Lizard Lord]

Because jessica was something her really really wanted. She was more or less the one thing that held his attention completely for an extended period of time.



Because Jessica is a beautiful women with powers. Just like Scarlet Witch. And Black Widow may not have powers but I would be surprised if he didn't hold her in the same regard.

[Pex]

So far so good. I have been able to get over the dramatic style I'm still not liking and be interested in the story.

[tomandtish]

I agree 100% with this...

the entire origin was messed up from the comics... in the comics the fact that she is a failed hero informed her character, here it is just 2 jokes, one by her sister, and one from the guy she is doing...

I don't understand why they changed this...


Remember, unlike the comics true superheroes have only been around in the MCU for a fairly short time, and public even less (since Cap was presumed dead). The first real public outing of powers (since Iron Man is tech not powers) was Hulk. And that one (and Thor) may have had enough cover-up by the military/Shield. Avengers was the first movie to truly, no-holds-barred show the world that super powers were here and presumably are here to stay.


Okay, I finished the show last night.

Some random thoughts

At one point Jeri mentions that Pam is being charged with murder.

Why? They have a wounded Jeri, Whatshername's fingerprints on the knife, all the evidence consistent with Jeri being attacked with a knife, Pam coming in, hitting whatshername, who then hits her head on the table and dies.

You know, the things that physically happened. It seems a pretty clear-cut case of, if not self-defense, trying to defend somebody else. There are even witnesses (Jessica) and Motive (Messy Breakup) to back it up.

Like, I could see Pam not wanting anything to do with Jeri ever again, but I have trouble buying the Police expecting to get a Murder conviction.



Part of the issue may be the divorce though. Remember that at the time the charge was made police don't know about the mind control. It's also unclear at this point what's come out about Jeri being blackmailed. And finally, we don't know what specifically Pam is saying to the police, since she's fired Jeri as her lawyer.

My suspicion is police don't want to risk her fleeing, so DA has charged her while they firm up a case. Buys them a little time before they take it to the Grand Jury.



It occurs to me, that Kilgrave is basically what you get if you have somebody whose only experiences with human interactions come from Television.


The revelation that Jessica is immune to Kilgrave's powers recolors the whole "Childhood Home" Sequence. Does he actually think he loves her, or does he just want to possess and control her.

But upon thinking about it, I don't think he realizes that there IS a difference. What he WANTS, is to control the one person he cannot control (Who also happens to be a gorgeous woman with superpowers.) He certainly seems to see himself as a Suitor, lashing out at other "Romantic" rivals (Like poor Reuben).

Really, he just wants her back in his Control, in one form or another.

But, due to his powers, he is unable to form an honest connection with another human being.

Okay, that's not true. He could use sign language, or carefully avoid giving instructions, say "Disregard any of my commands that you would not follow of your own free will" every 12 hours, ect ect. But he's not interested in that.

The point is, he has never learned how to actually connect with somebody else.

What he has done is watched Television. Films and Television, when they portray a romance, tend to end after the couple gets together. It's all about Desire. The Guy wants the girl, he makes romantic gestures until she agrees to be with him. They kiss, the film ends.

That's really the level of understanding that Kilgrave is starting from. He Wants Jessica the same way I want a pizza. If he could just walk up and control her, he would. But, he cannot, so he seeks other ways to control or otherwise "Have" her, because, as far he is aware, "Wanting" somebody is the same thing as Loving them. I think he would "Love" anything he wanted, but could not have, in the same way.

Really, a lot of his actions make WAY more sense if you assume he's working off some sort of cheesy hollywood romance playbook, which happens to coincide perfectly with his self-centered personality.

He has no reason to think that what Jessica really wants is to move into a perfect reconstruction of her childhood home. BUT, that sort of elaborate gesture is exactly the type of "LET ME PROVE I LOVE YOU!" Nonsense that you see in hollywood, where the romantic Hero wins over the object of his affection by demonstrating the lengths he is willing to go to win her over. It's basically just saying "LOOK HOW MUCH I WANT YOU!", with no consideration for what the other person wants.


I marked two of your statements. He actually states this himself when he goes to the police station to stop Jessica from sending herself to SuperMax. "I know what love is! "I watch television!" I suspect many watching took that to be intended funny. It's not. He's dead serious. That's what he thinks love is.


That's not the point being made though. The point is he was able to achieve a goal without his powers.

The problem however Clertar is missing is that without his powers both his goals and abilities are so ineffectual in terms of danger level or threat that any hero or villain in the entire rest of the MCU could roll right over the top of him without even trying. By the standards of the MCU, if you take his powers away he's a non-entity. It's the powers that make him scary in a way that stacks upto the kind of threat the kinda of show where dealing with, (i.e. an MCU superhero story), needs.

I have to agree with this. With his powers he could do almost anything. He could be the world's greatest assassin or thief. Heck, he could be the world's greatest Ambassador or world leader if he learns to be subtle. Just use subtle nudges instead of broad hammer strokes. Instead (as someone said earlier) we get the person who's only interest is self-gratification with minimal immediate effort on his part. The truly interesting thing is: even if he wanted to just live a rich and wealthy lifestyle, he could probably do some things with stock manipulations and gambling that would have him a billionaire in weeks and then live the rich lifestyle without use of powers at all. Instead it seems he just prefers to use what he needs to get what he wants right then

And that's actually why I like him. I've enjoyed the MCU movies, but they are all too large-scale. It's good to know that there are villains out there who are basically low-level. Because my suspicion is that if you gave 100 random people Kilgrave's powers, you'd get maybe 10 who'd try and use them for good, maybe 10 who'd try and have a decent chance of pulling off a serious world scale villain plot (I may be optimistic on those first two), 30 wannabe dictators who would be incompetent at it, and 50 Kilgraves (people who are just going to use it for personal satisfaction).


. . . So your complaint is that the serial rapist wasn't "Magnificent" in his bastardry.

I think you might want to reconsider your expectations for villainy. Reconsider them really hard. Because I think you just inadvertently hit the problem a lot of you had with Kilgrave: he doesn't have any admirable qualities. When in fact that's exactly why he's the best presentation of a villain the MCU has ever done: they made sure to point out that the murderer, serial abuser and serial rapist has no admirable qualities.

Exactly. They did an excellent job of showing he's a fairly petty and small man with a powerful ability he abuses. And although it brings no comfort to his victims, it's fortunate that he is. He could be so much worse if he actually had more significant ambitions or even better long-term planning.

I'm a little shamed to admit it, but in thinking about this, I can come up with ways to use his power to possibly make someone fall in love with me without them ever realizing mind control is involved (since most victims do seem to realize something is wrong, either during or after), such that they actually believe it is love. And that might be even scarier than what he already did.


I failed to see how the question has to do with whether Kilgrave is responsible. Kilgrave is responsible. Per the show nobody within this show (except Kilgrave) ever questions the matter. Legally he's either in a position of compelling or outright physically forcing the action. And morally, is not a topic of forum conversation, not that it would be a hard decision.


Very good points, and something that's actually already pretty well covered even today.

Note: One of the links discusses rape and sex abuse in fairly straight forward terms, if these are triggers for you. Law and the Multiverse (http://lawandthemultiverse.com/?s=mind+control)has some good analysis of the legal ramifications of mind control and uses comic book situations to analyze them. The short version is, even existing laws could probably handle mind control IF you could prove it. The act of mind control itself (regardless of what you had the person do) would be battery in most US jurisdictions. A person who committed a crime under mind control can use the Involuntary Intoxication, Duress, or Mistake of Fact defenses. And that ignores the need for Actus Reus (guilty mind).

While battery may seem like a mild charge, remember that we are talking about the act of (an unwilling) mind control itself. But at that point it's very hard to have them do anything that isn't also a crime itself (and if it isn't, why are you bothering?). Have someone sign documents they wouldn't? Fraud (and the documents are invalid). Have someone give you money? Robbery, theft, etc. depending on how it is done. Make someone go somewhere they didn't want to, or stay somewhere they want to leave? Kidnapping. Have sex with someone? Sexual assault. Actually, aggravated sexual assault in most jurisdictions because of the battery charge. In fact, mind control allows substantial enhancement of existing charges, because the odds are you can add battery AND kidnapping to almost any case involving mind control. Some states require no movement at all for kidnapping and many others only require a few feet. For example, the guy Kilgrave told to "Shut up, go over and stand by that fence. Forever". He kidnapped him. And kidnapping gets a higher degree of felony in a variety of circumstances, including sexual assault.

So looking at the flashback time when Kilgrave did have Jessica under his control, you have: Battery (for the mind control), aggravated sexual assault because of the battery and the next charge, and kidnapping (since he was restraining her against her will). And you presumably have numerous counts of each charge (possible exception might be the kidnapping depending on if they feel she ever left his sphere of control). And that's not counting charges for any crimes he had Jessica commit.


In fairness to Kilgrave's powers (and as a detriment to the man himself) he could be a global threat.

1. Win at poker - take a few million.
2. Setup a company.
3. Hire a researcher to tell you what you need for viral research.
4. Set a meeting with some company employee who can introduce you up the chain of command.
5. Get them to agree a deal with your company to fund your research (into how to expand your powers).
6. With however much million/billion at your disposal begin research in earnest.
7. With expanded powers set up a meeting with some government employee/elected official - use them to move through the chain of command to talk to who you need.
8. Get elected/appointed.
9. Get legislation passed to your own benefit.
10. Meet heads of state.
11. Arrange one world government under you.
12. Profit.

Kilgrave had the power to undertake a similar plan to the one above (altered as needed to account for protective measures that some people might have) - what he lacked was the mentality to go down that route, partly because his goal was 'get girlfriend' rather than 'conquer world'.

I was creating my replies to quotes as I read them, so I was apparently ninja'd. Exactly. There are lots of ways he can use his power to cause significant trouble/make himself super wealthy/take over the world. He doesn't seem to have the drive or desire.



Look, I'm going to be honest: I do not know whether this speaks to you directly, so I won't direct this specifically at you. I will simply say that I think a great deal of the animosity for Kilgrave's villainy has nothing to do with the scale of threat he poses. I think there are plenty of cases where a low-level psychological threat would work plenty well for many of the people objecting to to Kilgrave; I'm pretty sure that I have never, ever, in my entire life heard an objection to the excellent Unbreakable, for example, that centers around the fact that Mr. Glass could never be a threat to David Dunn physically. I think it has to do quite specifically with the fact that some people can not imagine themselves as being victims of Kilgrave, any more than they can imagine themselves as victims of any abuser. I think there are a lot of people who look at abuse victims and say to themselves: these people are victims ultimately because they are weak of will and weak of character. I am neither. Therefore, I can never be an abuse victim.

And I think that the fact that this very attitude is Kilgrave's greatest asset and what allows him to cloak himself from the world annoys the heck out of them.

If this doesn't apply to you, I won't argue the point. But this ultimately is what a lot of the resistance to the character comes down to. Were this a story about a male hero trying to save his girlfriend from the mental domination of a monster, 90% of the criticisms of the character would disappear. And I think that says volumes about how much we needed a story like Jessica Jones and a villain like Kilgrave.


If I haven't been clear above, this is an excellent post to do so: I actually love the way they did Kilgrave. Netflix is going for a grimmer, somewhat more realistic world. One of those is in motivations, and as I mentioned above I think Kilgrave is exactly in line with how the majority of people would act if they had his power.

I think some are just disappointed that a character with a power so potentially unstoppable is actually pretty unimaginative in using it. But that's what I liked about it.

[Reddish Mage]

You forgot murderer.

Of course, Kilgrave would say in his defense that he's never actually killed anyone, he never took what wouldn't be freely given to him and everyone always consented to anything he did at the time.

In fact, minus that wrinkle about mind controlling people, its hard to actually say anything he's ever done that was illegal...

[Kitten Champion]

In fact, minus that wrinkle about mind controlling people, its hard to actually say anything he's ever done that was illegal...

Even if you assume the people under his command were acting of their own accord, he did still solicit them to commit murder on his behalf and various other crimes to his own benefit.

Plus, just from what I can remember, he personally B&E'd Jessica's apartment, and the stalking, harassment, etc.

[tomandtish]

You forgot murderer.

Of course, Kilgrave would say in his defense that he's never actually killed anyone, he never took what wouldn't be freely given to him and everyone always consented to anything he did at the time.

In fact, minus that wrinkle about mind controlling people, its hard to actually say anything he's ever done that was illegal...

I was using Jessica as the specific example, and that's why I did comment that it didn't include charges for crimes he had Jessica commit. That was literally just what he could be charged with for what he did to Jessica herself.

As for the mind control wrinkle, it depends and there are two disclaimers. If he made threats to someone who knew he had mind control, then they might still be able to claim duress. For example, if he tells person X that he'll make their spouse kill themselves unless person X commits a crime, that's also duress (again, if you can prove it). The catch is, he has to make threats and the person has to believe them.

The really interesting thing is, you might even be able to get someone on a mind control duress case even if they didn't have it.

Example: Kilgrave doesn't have mind control. He wants 50 million dollars and there is a banker who can transfer it to him. He meets the banker at his house under some pretext. He has a henchman with him. This henchman has been offered 10 million dollars and a lot of pain killer for his part.

1) Kilgrave tells the banker he has the power of mind control.

2) To "prove" it, he has the henchman stick his hand in the blender and turn it on.

3) He tells the banker he'll have the banker/banker's spouse/banker's kids do horrible things to themselves/each other if the banker doesn't transfer the money and if the banker tells anyone.

4) The banker truly believes him because he can't believe anyone would do what the henchman did. so he doesn't tell anyone and steals the money for Kilgrave.

With those facts as stated, you have an actual duress case. Could you convince a DA or a jury? Doubtful, but it would meet the definition if you could prove it.

[Reddish Mage]

I was hoping for something a little more obvious and blatant than possibly illegal threats. I'm not even sure of what crime you would convict him for. Fraud requires the threat to be "reasonably believed."

Also, in the actual show, he doesn't threaten with the blender (although he does threaten with mind control).


Even if you assume the people under his command were acting of their own accord, he did still solicit them to commit murder on his behalf and various other crimes to his own benefit.

Plus, just from what I can remember, he personally B&E'd Jessica's apartment, and the stalking, harassment, etc.

Which murder did he solicit though? He himself defends himself from the murder Jessica commited by saying "I told you to take care of the girl, YOU took that to mean kill her." We don't see what he tells Hope to do so she kills her parents nor is it clear how he benefits, also "solicitation" implies he offers some sort of inducement, which he doesn't. I believe benefit and offering inducement is both important for conviction of the crime of solicitation.

As far as breaking and entering Jessica's apartment, she left her broken door unprotected and possibly unlocked in a run-down part of Manhattan. Clearly, she should expect people to enter the place.

I'm not sure what constitutes "stalking" (ok I looked it up quickly, it involves harassment) but harassment has to be annoying and unwanted. Jessica, however, agreed to the contact after the fact. Also, I believe harassment is simply a civil violation, and certainly doesn't move past misdemeanor.

Come on, we need to get Kilgrave on at least a felony.

[Chen]

Which murder did he solicit though? He himself defends himself from the murder Jessica commited by saying "I told you to take care of the girl, YOU took that to mean kill her." We don't see what he tells Hope to do so she kills her parents nor is it clear how he benefits, also "solicitation" implies he offers some sort of inducement, which he doesn't. I believe benefit and offering inducement is both important for conviction of the crime of solicitation.

He definitely had his mom kill herself, there's no vagueness in that one. He got the old lady to kill herself by blowing herself up and trying to take others out with her. There was the guy with the Drano syringe we can presume he had kill himself. He had the brother cut his own throat.

[Kitten Champion]

Which murder did he solicit though? He himself defends himself from the murder Jessica commited by saying "I told you to take care of the girl, YOU took that to mean kill her." We don't see what he tells Hope to do so she kills her parents nor is it clear how he benefits, also "solicitation" implies he offers some sort of inducement, which he doesn't. I believe benefit and offering inducement is both important for conviction of the crime of solicitation.

Trish's attempted murder, certainly. Granted we didn't see him say "go kill her" but we know he said something to that affect , and solicitation is the wrong word - conspiracy would certainly apply. With Hope as well.

He's also a drug dealer.

[Logic]

Was I the only person holding out hope for an unreasonably long time that Simpson was Marc Spector, and not Nuke? The "Give me a red" gave me some serious doubts, but I figured it could still be one of the many aliases of Spector, but Simpson's lighter ended all speculation that was contrary to his established character.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Was I the only person holding out hope for an unreasonably long time that Simpson was Marc Spector, and not Nuke? The "Give me a red" gave me some serious doubts, but I figured it could still be one of the many aliases of Spector, but Simpson's lighter ended all speculation that was contrary to his established character.

I just wish they were more willing to go into nuke territory. Heck maybe he can get a spin off... as crazy nut job version of captain America...

Some sources are now saying there wont be a season 2... dare devil got one and I thought this show was better.

[Chen]

Some sources are now saying there wont be a season 2... dare devil got one and I thought this show was better.

Only reason I read about this was due to The Defenders and the need to squeeze in a Luke Cage series and an Iron Fist series before the eventual merger. I don't think it has anything to do with show quality.

[Reddish Mage]

Trish's attempted murder, certainly. Granted we didn't see him say "go kill her" but we know he said something to that affect , and solicitation is the wrong word - conspiracy would certainly apply. With Hope as well.

He's also a drug dealer.

Again telling someone to kill someone isn't enough to get some convicted of solicitation or conspiracy. Conspiracy requires an overt act, like buying the gun, or drawing up plans. Just saying "go kill this guy" isn't enough.

Great, so the worse thing he's done is dealing drugs. I'm glad we are getting somewhere.

[dancrilis]

Great, so the worse thing he's done is dealing drugs.

You can likely get him on 'assisted suicide (page 24) (https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=6d3777E9uAEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA14&dq=%22approaches+and+commonalities+of+suicide%22&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=advise&f=false)' legislation - he did advise them on what to do (in at least one case successfully).

[Chen]

Again telling someone to kill someone isn't enough to get some convicted of solicitation or conspiracy. Conspiracy requires an overt act, like buying the gun, or drawing up plans. Just saying "go kill this guy" isn't enough.

Great, so the worse thing he's done is dealing drugs. I'm glad we are getting somewhere.

He provided the bomb used in the suicide bombing. That's probably sufficient for a conspiracy charge.

[Kitten Champion]

He provided the bomb used in the suicide bombing. That's probably sufficient for a conspiracy charge.

He gave Hope a gun as well.

[tomandtish]

Again telling someone to kill someone isn't enough to get some convicted of solicitation or conspiracy. Conspiracy requires an overt act, like buying the gun, or drawing up plans. Just saying "go kill this guy" isn't enough.

Great, so the worse thing he's done is dealing drugs. I'm glad we are getting somewhere.

My initial post was pointing out crimes he's committed under current NY law (even law and the multiverse backs this up based on their analysis). PROVING IT is another story entirely. Again, for most of these arguments we're assuming that you can convince a DA/jury of the mind control. If you can, you have one of the biggest pieces of what you need. If you can't, we agree it becomes almost impossible (I say almost because juries can do some strange things).


I was hoping for something a little more obvious and blatant than possibly illegal threats. I'm not even sure of what crime you would convict him for. Fraud requires the threat to be "reasonably believed."

Also, in the actual show, he doesn't threaten with the blender (although he does threaten with mind control).

I was using that as a hypothetical. But let's use the show's example:

Let's assume you are meeting Kilgrave for some reason. You walk in and he's talking to Alan. You see the scene where he tells Alan to put his hand in the blender. Alan is obviously scared and fighting it... and Kilgrave doesn't have him stop. He blends his hand. You ask why he did that and Kilgrave tells you he made him do it with his mind. Are you telling me you aren't going to believe it at least a little? And if there was video of it that at least a few on a jury might not believe it at least a little (or at least believe that you believed it)?



Which murder did he solicit though? He himself defends himself from the murder Jessica commited by saying "I told you to take care of the girl, YOU took that to mean kill her." We don't see what he tells Hope to do so she kills her parents nor is it clear how he benefits, also "solicitation" implies he offers some sort of inducement, which he doesn't. I believe benefit and offering inducement is both important for conviction of the crime of solicitation.

As others comment. any time he told a person to kill another using his powers and they tried it, he's guilty of at least attempted murder. The one Jessica did is debatable, and depends on how many other times she's seen him order someone to kill. If he's done it enough, she may have been conditioned at that time to assume the default is to kill. And others have also commented that there does seem to be some part of the command that can be unspoken, although I'm not sure if this is confirmed.


As far as breaking and entering Jessica's apartment, she left her broken door unprotected and possibly unlocked in a run-down part of Manhattan. Clearly, she should expect people to enter the place.

Technically even a broken and unlocked door does not prevent a charge of unlawful entry. What someone can argue in this particular case is that it is also a business, and does not have a private residence notification on the door, so technically if the door is unlocked it is not unreasonable to assume one can enter if they are there to discuss business. But that's because she's running her business out of there, not just because it is unlocked.


I'm not sure what constitutes "stalking" (ok I looked it up quickly, it involves harassment) but harassment has to be annoying and unwanted. Jessica, however, agreed to the contact after the fact. Also, I believe harassment is simply a civil violation, and certainly doesn't move past misdemeanor.

Come on, we need to get Kilgrave on at least a felony.

You are right in that she probably nullified any realistic chance of making a charge stick when she moved in with him.

[Chen]

He gave Hope a gun as well.

Did he? I didn't recall exactly what was said about that, if it was even mentioned at all how she got it. But if so, then yeah that's another one.

[Kitten Champion]

Did he? I didn't recall exactly what was said about that, if it was even mentioned at all how she got it. But if so, then yeah that's another one.

He might have ordered her to get it, but its a possibility. It's not like he would have been caught in any event.

Edit: There's also the fact that, in the end, he's responsible for planning out the murders. They're rarely as direct as "go and kill them", based on how they're presented in the show, he gives them a series of processes they have to carry out like a computer program.

[Reddish Mage]

He might have ordered her to get it, but its a possibility. It's not like he would have been caught in any event.

Edit: There's also the fact that, in the end, he's responsible for planning out the murders. They're rarely as direct as "go and kill them", based on how they're presented in the show, he gives them a series of processes they have to carry out like a computer program.

Ok I'll accept he actually DID enough to warrant be gotten on conspiracy.

However, Chen pointed out, although he may be technically committing the more oblique crimes (conspiracy, solicitation, assisted suicide under a very liberally-worded NY law), it would be hard to actually convict him of anything without convincing jurors that mind control is a real thing.

There isn't a lot of good precedent for mind control convictions in the US. Wasn't Patty Hearst mentioned? She was kidnapped heiress who was repeatedly sexually assaulted, systematically brainwashed, and then ended up a Lieutenant of Symbionese Liberation Army (whose political goals were as screwy and alien to a Californian Heiress as the name sounds). She was convicted and believed by the jury to have acted on her own free will.

Oh I know! The smoking gun was right there when he bought Jessica's childhood home. He paid cash. What are the chances he filed the right forms with the FinCEN, you know how many people end up getting convicted of the serious felony of not filing the right banking law paperwork...

Oh wait, he stressed that he wanted to do it legit and had a lawyer draw up the paperwork, I guess its pretty good that he filed...

If not, I know a great lawyer he could use to get off for those sorts of charges...(yes there's a species of "ignorance" defense that works for this sort of thing)

[Kitten Champion]

Ok I'll accept he actually DID enough to warrant be gotten on conspiracy.

However, Chen pointed out, although he may be technically committing the more oblique crimes (conspiracy, solicitation, assisted suicide under a very liberally-worded NY law), it would be hard to actually convict him of anything without convincing jurors that mind control is a real thing.

Oh, sure, but by that same reasoning it would be impossible to actually arrest him, put him on trial, and imprison him if the State wasn't cognizant of his abilities and come prepared with some method circumventing them and simply charged him as Kevin Thompson under... say, illegal immigration.

[themaque]

Okay, there is a thread here about Killgrave not having enough agency or being a bigger threat. My question is why WOULD Killgrave even WANT to rule the world?

What does it get him? He already has anything he could possibly really want just by asking for it. Why would he want all that hardship? Take that risk of upsetting other powered people in charge?

[Dienekes]

Okay, there is a thread here about Killgrave not having enough agency or being a bigger threat. My question is why WOULD Killgrave even WANT to rule the world?

What does it get him? He already has anything he could possibly really want just by asking for it. Why would he want all that hardship? Take that risk of upsetting other powered people in charge?

As a member of the "Kilgrave was kind of weak" club, I don't think it's the size of his threat that's the matter. He shouldn't be trying to take over the world or whatever. That's not his deal, but it doesn't have to be. The problem is, the plans he does have he pursues in a rather naive and rather easily defeat-able manner, his successes are largely either a result of his enemies not just killing him when they clearly had the opportunity, or the lawyer taking the idiot ball and holding on for dear life.

Take another wonderful sociopath. Hannibal Lecter, considered one of the best villains of movie history, his goals are also rather simplistic. He wants a room with a view, then to get out of jail, then to just live in peace and eat people whenever he feels the urge. But (except for in Hannibal which was a pretty poor outing of a movie), he always seems to be the one in control, even when he's behind bars. His plans don't always succeed, but even when they don't you can see they were rather amazingly well-crafted. Imagine Hannibal with Kilgrave's power, that would be a villain that can carry a 13 episode series, even if his goal is never anything more than getting Jessica Jones to do what he wants.

[Carl]

Okay, there is a thread here about Killgrave not having enough agency or being a bigger threat. My question is why WOULD Killgrave even WANT to rule the world?

What does it get him? He already has anything he could possibly really want just by asking for it. Why would he want all that hardship? Take that risk of upsetting other powered people in charge?

Dienekes hits one aspect of it from my understanding of what people are saying, but another aspect is that because he's not up to say hannibal's standards it's not going to matter weather Jessica and co can stop him, eventually he will meet something or someone in the rest of the MCu who can stop him. The drama, the tension, the emotional value is all in the viewer caring enough about what happens to jessica and her friends. Because without that he's just a comedy villain, he's so hoplessly inept and incapable of threatening anyting of a wider scope that there's no drama tenshion or threat in him and his ADHD and all round patheticness just become groan worthy.

[themaque]

How and when would he EVER develop these skills? I think he works perfect right now because... he's a petulant spoiled self centered child with unbelievable power.

He's a smaller scale PERSONAL villain. but what does make him scary is he isn't an idiot. I know you might disagree but think about that from the perspective above.

He doesn't really seem to understand the concept of other people. With his powers he has never had to really try at... well anything. He asks and the world gives it to him. He stays under the radar and lives a spoiled life. But then... Jessica Jones.

The one time his power slips. The one thing he CANT just take and it drives him insane with hatred/lust. But he doesn't try the same thing over and over. He does learn, adapt, and come up with new plans.

If he hadn't been killed I think he WOULD have become a large scale threat, especially with his powers on the rise, but I think he works great for what he was supposed to be.

As far as him being so inept... he went years, decades, without being discovered or taken in. I don't think he would have had a real problem with anyone of true power and he would have continued to use and abuse people for... well near indefinitely.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

My personal belief is I would rather be faced with Loki or kingpin then Kilgrave... I could easily be made to fall for loki but I would rather fight him. Kingpin I would almost defiantly fight, although if he fell for me and was trying to charm me I might fall for him. Kilgrave no matter how much I want to slap him... I have to do what he says.

That terrifies me.

[Dienekes]

How and when would he EVER develop these skills? I think he works perfect right now because... he's a petulant spoiled self centered child with unbelievable power.

He's a smaller scale PERSONAL villain. but what does make him scary is he isn't an idiot. I know you might disagree but think about that from the perspective above.

He doesn't really seem to understand the concept of other people. With his powers he has never had to really try at... well anything. He asks and the world gives it to him. He stays under the radar and lives a spoiled life. But then... Jessica Jones.

The one time his power slips. The one thing he CANT just take and it drives him insane with hatred/lust. But he doesn't try the same thing over and over. He does learn, adapt, and come up with new plans.

If he hadn't been killed I think he WOULD have become a large scale threat, especially with his powers on the rise, but I think he works great for what he was supposed to be.

As far as him being so inept... he went years, decades, without being discovered or taken in. I don't think he would have had a real problem with anyone of true power and he would have continued to use and abuse people for... well near indefinitely.

And yet, with all his great plans at not being discovered, it takes Simpson and Jessica, what, 2 episodes together to get him in a position where they could have easily just shot him? Simpson even called for that plan, and if they had done it, it would have worked out better for literally everyone on the show.

Yes, it makes total sense that he'd be a spoiled brat with no ambition and no social skills. It is a completely consistent and logical character. However, that doesn't make him a villain that can carry a 13 episode tv show. As soon as it was revealed how much of a naive lovestruck fool he was it was pretty much curtains for him. At that point the only reason he was not easily defeated by Jessica and her merry band was because they kept getting in their own way, not because he was intelligent.

That said, his powers are terrifying, truly horrifyingly terrifying. His character? Much less so.

[dancrilis]

... it would have worked out better for literally everyone on the show.

I brought this up earlier also, but you might be wrong on the literally everyone piece - his bodyguards and the company they worked for (and by extension its other employees) might have been worse off.

But yes everyone else would have been better off.

[everdeenkatniss]

This will definitely be one of the darker themed shows out there, especially for comic book media. It rates up there with Ms. Marvel and Marcus with the implied assault/torture.

[McStabbington]

And yet, with all his great plans at not being discovered, it takes Simpson and Jessica, what, 2 episodes together to get him in a position where they could have easily just shot him? Simpson even called for that plan, and if they had done it, it would have worked out better for literally everyone on the show.

Yes, it makes total sense that he'd be a spoiled brat with no ambition and no social skills. It is a completely consistent and logical character. However, that doesn't make him a villain that can carry a 13 episode tv show. As soon as it was revealed how much of a naive lovestruck fool he was it was pretty much curtains for him. At that point the only reason he was not easily defeated by Jessica and her merry band was because they kept getting in their own way, not because he was intelligent.

That said, his powers are terrifying, truly horrifyingly terrifying. His character? Much less so.

It wouldn't have worked out well for Hope. Or for Jessica.

Jessica isn't doing what she's doing because she's an alcoholic Clark Kent who must save the day. It's because she needed to reclaim some sense of her old, genuinely caring, compassionate self, and Hope was her vehicle for that. Jessica's life before Kilgrave? She was a hero. She saved Trish, and Kilgrave literally kidnapped her while she was on her first mission as a full-fledged superhero.

Outright killing Kilgrave might have stopped the threat, but it wouldn't have beaten Kilgrave, and it wouldn't have given Jessica the resolution she needed to get some kind of hold on her PTSD.

[Dienekes]

It wouldn't have worked out well for Hope. Or for Jessica.

Jessica isn't doing what she's doing because she's an alcoholic Clark Kent who must save the day. It's because she needed to reclaim some sense of her old, genuinely caring, compassionate self, and Hope was her vehicle for that. Jessica's life before Kilgrave? She was a hero. She saved Trish, and Kilgrave literally kidnapped her while she was on her first mission as a full-fledged superhero.

Outright killing Kilgrave might have stopped the threat, but it wouldn't have beaten Kilgrave, and it wouldn't have given Jessica the resolution she needed to get some kind of hold on her PTSD.

It most definitely would have beaten Kilgrave. Unable to cause more harm, his hold over Jessica gone, he's beaten. Since his only goals are 1) do whatever the Hell he wants, and 2) make Jessica love him killing him outright stops both of those goals from happening. In fact, that is exactly what Jessica ends up doing to Kilgrave. Killing him is the resolution to both their stories. She outright murders the bastard, and as far as clearing her PTSD my understanding is Stacy and Luke are a bit more instrumental for that, since you don't just turn off PTSD after some event. It takes talking, counseling, and having a support system. Which she had, and will get after killing Kilgrave.

Speaking of Hope, just killing him would have worked out a hell of a lot better for her in the long run, what with her being dead and all, because Jess didn't kill him when she had the ample opportunities. She was the one willing to take the deal without Jessica's meddling.

And this is it really. Jessica doesn't take the obvious better solution not because Kilgrave's manipulations and intelligence, but because of her own personal beliefs and desires. She got in her way toward defeating him, then the lawyer got in her way through one of the most boneheaded moves I've ever witnessed. Then Simpson conveniently went crazy to distract her. Then finally when it is just her and Kilgrave, she walks up and kills him with one of the most obvious ploys available to her. Because Kilgrave would of course fall for it, since he's not particularly smart.

[Carl]

@Dienekes: PTSD isn't something you get through with simple counseling and some drugs. A big part of it is learning to deal with the things that set it off, to come to terms, (to use a turn of phrase), with what happened. If Killgrave died on anything but Jessica's terms she'd have never fully dealt with her demons because some part of her would never have believed he was really dead no matter the evidence. And if that sounds irrational, congratulations. The first thing to go in any kind of emotional trauma, even those much less severe than full blown PTSD rationality about the subject is one of the first things to go. That why Jessica killing him is such a huge deal for her PTSD. It shows that she believes on the subconscious emotive level that if she kills him he'll actually stay dead. Which is a huge step forward for her.

[Dienekes]

@Dienekes: PTSD isn't something you get through with simple counseling and some drugs. A big part of it is learning to deal with the things that set it off, to come to terms, (to use a turn of phrase), with what happened. If Killgrave died on anything but Jessica's terms she'd have never fully dealt with her demons because some part of her would never have believed he was really dead no matter the evidence. And if that sounds irrational, congratulations. The first thing to go in any kind of emotional trauma, even those much less severe than full blown PTSD rationality about the subject is one of the first things to go. That why Jessica killing him is such a huge deal for her PTSD. It shows that she believes on the subconscious emotive level that if she kills him he'll actually stay dead. Which is a huge step forward for her.

Never mentioned drugs and didn't call it simple.

But, from what I've read on the subject one thing that I have never seen advised for those suffering from PTSD is to go try and murder their former tormentor in order to completely remove it from their system. Not once have I seen the prescribed.

What I have seen is: Don't self medicate with drugs and alcohol. Go seek professional help. Keep a healthy support system of close friends, family, and loved ones to help you through the tough times. Cut out toxic elements in your life. Seek social engagement and other calming techniques. It will be a long road that doesn't just turn off no matter what you do, but you can alleviate, grow with it, and eventually heal.

So, basically, do all the stuff that Jessica wasn't doing at the beginning of the show.

[McStabbington]

Never mentioned drugs and didn't call it simple.

But, from what I've read on the subject one thing that I have never seen advised for those suffering from PTSD is to go try and murder their former tormentor in order to completely remove it from their system. Not once have I seen the prescribed.

What I have seen is: Don't self medicate with drugs and alcohol. Go seek professional help. Keep a healthy support system of close friends, family, and loved ones to help you through the tough times. Cut out toxic elements in your life. Seek social engagement and other calming techniques. It will be a long road that doesn't just turn off no matter what you do, but you can alleviate, grow with it, and eventually heal.

So, basically, do all the stuff that Jessica wasn't doing at the beginning of the show.

Which is a primary reason why she couldn't just kill the guy and screw the consequences. Not only does it not work narratively (that would make JJ the story of the origin of a villain), but as a character she needed more than killing the man. She thought that she did that with the bus, and look where that got her. She needed to defeat him, to expose him before the entire world so that absolutely no one could deny what he'd done to her or deny what a monster of a human being he was. If he died unexposed, the lie he presented as truth, that he was a good person deserving of sympathy, would have lived on.

[Dienekes]

Which is a primary reason why she couldn't just kill the guy and screw the consequences. Not only does it not work narratively (that would make JJ the story of the origin of a villain),

No, she still wouldn't be a villain.


but as a character she needed more than killing the man. She thought that she did that with the bus, and look where that got her. She needed to defeat him, to expose him before the entire world so that absolutely no one could deny what he'd done to her or deny what a monster of a human being he was. If he died unexposed, the lie he presented as truth, that he was a good person deserving of sympathy, would have lived on.

Yes she did need more than a murder, therapy and a support system, like her sister and Luke, and Hell, even a pre-turned crazy Simpson. Which she most definitely still would have had if she just shot him with Simpson. There is nothing in the story that says her mental state is derived from her proving to the world that he was evil. She wanted to do it for Holly, but that backfired most amazingly.

Now it wouldn't have worked dramatically to just kill him, that is true. But I still say a more interesting story would be if the reason it didn't work was because Kilgrave was actually competent, not because the heroes get in their own way most of the time.

[McStabbington]

No, she still wouldn't be a villain.



. . . What? If they had gone directly for the kill immediately, a) an undetermined number of people with pre-programmed kill switches would have offed themselves, and b) at least one person who only came to know Jessica because of Kilgrave's fixation for her would be forced to endure a life sentence for a crime her rapist mentally forced her to commit.

Under no circumstances do you get to do that and call yourself a good guy afterwards. That JJ instinctively knows it despite all of her damage and moral ambiguity is an immediate tell about what she is in the story: the hero rather than the protagonist. And it is one of the earliest tells about Officer Simpson's character that he has to be told this repeatedly. If you don't understand this, then I have to say I've found the reason you had problems with the show, and it's not the show's fault.

[Dienekes]

No I'm saying there's a rather large gulf between being a villain and being just a person. Taking care of the guy whose powers make him unable to be incarcerated and whose every second puts people at risk does not make one a villain. It may not make her Superman, but the world isn't so dichotomous that if you're not Superman you're Lex Luthor. But even if we go by, she must make sure that there are no pre-programmed people to kill themselves for her to off Kilgrave in order for it to be ok then she fails that miserably.

Let's look at her initial capture of Kilgrave. If he had anyone on a "I will contact you in the next 5 hours or you will kill yourself" command then they would have died and Jessica did nothing to stop that.

Then in her final confrontation, sure, she waited until Kilgrave gave a stop command to everyone within earshot, but we had seen that he had powers far outreaching beyond that, and several days to set up contingencies to get people to kill themselves if he was offed. Jessica did absolutely nothing to stop those either and just killed him. Like she should have initially. That the series didn't end with a montage of a bunch of people watching the news of Kilgrave's death and then shooting themselves in the head says more about the writers throwing her a bone than any precautions Jessica took herself.

[themaque]

I'm very much in the "Non-killing" camp. It's a very fine line when you take it upon yourself to start dealing out justice on your own. Jessica wanted to be a Hero, a protector. Not a masked vigilante bringing fear unto the streets.

I think this will very much be a re-occurring theme in Season 2 Daredevil sine The Punisher will be a major plot point / villain.

As far as Killgrave being a lame villain, I can see your view, I just don't agree with it.

[Dienekes]

I'm very much in the "Non-killing" camp. It's a very fine line when you take it upon yourself to start dealing out justice on your own. Jessica wanted to be a Hero, a protector. Not a masked vigilante bringing fear unto the streets.

I think this will very much be a re-occurring theme in Season 2 Daredevil sine The Punisher will be a major plot point / villain.

As far as Killgrave being a lame villain, I can see your view, I just don't agree with it.

Entirely fair. I have no problem with people disagreeing, Hell my sister thinks he's the best villain Marvel's ever made (though that may be her Doctor Who fangirl talking) only when they say I'm wrong and then don't give suitable proof to disprove an opinion.

[themaque]

Entirely fair. I have no problem with people disagreeing, Hell my sister thinks he's the best villain Marvel's ever made (though that may be her Doctor Who fangirl talking) only when they say I'm wrong and then don't give suitable proof to disprove an opinion.

I totally fangirl over Tennet myself, but that isn't why I felt he was a good villain. Especially for this story.

I think our main disagreement is what makes a good villain. What needs to be there for him to be a threat.

I feel his smaller more personal attack makes him good for this story and a good villain while admit he wouldn't last long against the Avengers or even when compared to the world changing power of Wilson Fisk. His character makes him scary because he is so small and petty when you get right down to it. A child with godlike powers as referenced earlier in the thread. Without it he would be nothing more than that poor schlub abusive boyfriend.

I take from your disagreement that you find that... less threatening because he CAN be outmaneuvered, out planed, or disabled with a serious power. That such power would be far more frightening in someone more capable of wielding it. I agree it would be frightening. Fisk with this power could rule countries.

But it's that personal level that makes him work for me. You have MET this guy in your real life. Everyone has had the misfortune to have dealt with a Killgrave like person at some point, so the fear or frustration of being totally powerless to something or someone like that can be very real. He doesn't even really CARE about you, he just uses you like a thing then goes poof. You can't talk to people about, you can't prove to anyone what happened, and you can't go back to the way your life was before.

This is why he works as a villain to me. -shrugs- I don't feel your wrong in disagreeing with me either. It's all just opinion.

[dancrilis]

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:

My primary problem with Kilgrave was not even with him directly it was that he was only a threat because the heroes were morons.


The show told us that only Jessica could defeat Kilgrave but showed us that Simpson would have done it far earlier on multiple occasions without the same level of collateral damage that letting Kilgrave live resulted in.

A different story could have had Simpson blow up the house, shoot him in the street, shoot him in the back of the van etc, and than had Simpson not able to cope with the aftermath and still worried about other people with powers go off the deep end and seeking to hunt them down - the show could have continued still dealt with the nature of abuse and made much more sense.

As it stands Simpson seemingly went off the deep end seemingly solely because of being ignored about what turned out to be the correct solution which resulted in his friends being killed.

[themaque]

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:


The show told us that only Jessica could defeat Kilgrave but showed us that Simpson would have done it far earlier on multiple occasions without the same level of collateral damage that letting Kilgrave live resulted in.

A different story could have had Simpson blow up the house, shoot him in the street, shoot him in the back of the van etc, and than had Simpson not able to cope with the aftermath and still worried about other people with powers go off the deep end and seeking to hunt them down - the show could have continued still dealt with the nature of abuse and made much more sense.

As it stands Simpson seemingly went off the deep end seemingly solely because of being ignored about what turned out to be the correct solution which resulted in his friends being killed.

But he wasn't right. No, they did not have the right to go forth and just kill Kilgrave. The proper response was to reveal him, to get him out in the open. To capture, prove he existed, and get hope free.

Random people in the streets don't have the right nor responsibility to start killing people who they feel are wrong or wronged them.

Does that mean I think she was wrong for killing him in the end? In a way, yes. And so did SHE. Another reason she was so upset and broken at the end.

EDIT: Another point I'm sure we will see in the PUNISHER storyline.

[Carl]

@dancrilis: I wasn't in any way suggesting that going and killing killgrave was the direct response she should hae gone for from day one. Thats you throwing your own prejudices on things. Though perhaps i didn't explain myself well enough earleir. Had a nap since then so lets try again.

The point is that for Jessica she's never going to be able to come to terms with killgrave until she's completly convinced that he can't make her life a libving hell anymore. That dosen't mean she has to kill him, but it does mean anything that's done to prevent him doing that has to be somthing she belives will stick. Thats why her killing him is so important to her recovery. her being able to do that shos she belives it will stick. Geting him sucsesfully outed and locked up an unable to control anyone else could, (with the right surrounding circumstances), have worked just as well.

All the stuff you described for dealing with PTSD is a means to cope wioth it, not a means to get rid of it. The form I'm familiar with, and the one Jessica clearly has, involves exposure to certain stimuli and situations convincing the sufferer that whatever gave them PTSD in the first place is going to happen again no matter how irrational and impossible it might be. It's in some senses a form of phobia. All the stuff you described is a means of coping with the phobia. Not dealing with the phobia. Dealing with it requires in some way reach the point where such stimuli don't cause you to suffer an epic panic attack or other form of autonomus esponse.

[Lizard Lord]

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:


The show told us that only Jessica could defeat Kilgrave but showed us that Simpson would have done it far earlier on multiple occasions without the same level of collateral damage that letting Kilgrave live resulted in.

A different story could have had Simpson blow up the house, shoot him in the street, shoot him in the back of the van etc, and than had Simpson not able to cope with the aftermath and still worried about other people with powers go off the deep end and seeking to hunt them down - the show could have continued still dealt with the nature of abuse and made much more sense.

As it stands Simpson seemingly went off the deep end seemingly solely because of being ignored about what turned out to be the correct solution which resulted in his friends being killed.

Eh...but then the season would have changed its theme. I realize there is only two so far but I am guessing that each Marvel/Netflix season is going to have its own theme and issue to deal with. They can touch on stuff that may show up in a future season (such as the women whose son died in the Chitauri invasion and blamed superhumans for it) but for the most part they have a primary point to address. Jessica's PTSD is a big enough issue that it is worth devoting a whole season to. Killing Kilgrave early and making Simpson the main villain of the season would change that.

[Milo v3]

To quote myself from earlier in this thread:


The show told us that only Jessica could defeat Kilgrave but showed us that Simpson would have done it far earlier on multiple occasions without the same level of collateral damage that letting Kilgrave live resulted in.
And then Hope would be screwed. She doesn't want to just leave a victim of kilgrave in prison, after that victim went through everything Jessica did, and all because of Jessica's actions. Did... you miss a third of the show or what?

[Dienekes]

And then Hope would be screwed. She doesn't want to just leave a victim of kilgrave in prison, after that victim went through everything Jessica did, and all because of Jessica's actions. Did... you miss a third of the show or what?

Hope was screwed. And in attempting to un-screw Hope's situation Hope ended up dead. And Hope even said she was willing to go to prison and she wanted Kilgrave dead.

Really the big problem is, while we're shown Jessica's motivations when you look back at the story after it's over it turns out Simpson was 100% right about everything he said. Kilgrave was too dangerous and every second he was left alive they were endangering other people. I'm curious how many people would have survived if Simpson just shot Kilgrave initially. Hope, for certain, the old suicide bomber lady next door, the lawyer's ex-wife, Kilgrave's parents, a few random people, and technically not-Lester Freamon, though that's not on Kilgrave himself.

I've always been a bit puzzled with why the viewers are so against outright killing the villain at times. Sure, in the comics it makes sense to keep the favorite villains alive for the next story. But, in law there are cases of justifiable homicide, where killing someone is done to defend oneself or others. In numerous opportunities that Jessica had to kill Kilgrave it would have qualified as a justifiable homicide. Definitely more justifiable than shock torture and kidnapping are.

As to the PTSD discussion. I'll re-iterate that nothing I have read on the subject ever says that any event will suddenly cure it. Literally nothing, I'd be willing to read evidence for how to fix a neurological disorder in one simple event but, again, I've found nothing to support this.

[dancrilis]

And then Hope would be screwed. She doesn't want to just leave a victim of kilgrave in prison, after that victim went through everything Jessica did, and all because of Jessica's actions. Did... you miss a third of the show or what?

Again to quote from earlier in the thread.



Lets put me in the scene to advise the heroes.

Jessica: We need him alive to save Hope.
Simpson: He is too dangerous to let live - I can shoot him dead.
Jessica: We don't know what contingencies he might have, and we need to save Hope.
Simpson: Ok we will do it your way and kidnap him.
dancrilis: Wait, no - we don't know what contingencies he might have so whether we make him disappear via kidnapping or death is meaningless as they would presumably trigger regardless. Also Hope has a good Lawyer and a likely insanity plea - but even without that Kilgrave is causing the deaths of people daily and ruining lives consistently. So holding him alive for Hope risks many more people than killing him and also doesn't protect anyone. Further he will not be able to stand trail as he will simply order the judge and jury to acquit him - or the guards to release him or whatever, as they will not randomly simply believe that he has these powers, and even if they do he would still be entitled to a fair trail. Finally if Hope is a real concern his dead body might hold the key to his powers and so his influence might be provable which may exonerate her.
Both: Good gods your right.


To clarify in case it wasn't clear I hold that Hope accepting her prison term and doing her time and than moving on with her life would have been better for her than stabbing herself in the throat and bleeding out - that is of course a matter of opinion and the 'she is better off having stabbed herself in the throat and bleeding' position is no less valid.

Note this does not detract from the show as an emotional piece dealing with the survivor of abuse - it does detract from Kilgrave as a supervillian (or even a regular villain, frankly he is merely guy with his own childhood trauma who never grew up making him act a child).

He served his purpose for the show, but part of his purpose seems to have been to show how messed up Jessica was and how she wasn't thinking straight even when someone else suggested the correct (ethically if not morally) course of action (i.e Simpson suggesting she kill him- which she eventually did).

[Carl]

oh good grief we've got two people with very similar usernames i the thread :p. Just realised there's two of you ;).

@Dienekes: Rule of law combined with the fact that some of the people here are doubtless from outside the US. In the western world at least the general sentiment to my understanding is firmly against the death penalty at all outside the US.

The latter point is verging on modern polotics so i'm lothe to start an actually discushion on it. The best thing to do is to accept that peoplem do have genuine issues with it and that dosen't automaticlly mean they're acting irrational. Though in terms of my own personal reasons killgrave does actually fall within the range where subject to a few other factoids being true in the MCU killing him is acceptable, even if i personally dislike it.

The former point comes back to the fact that outside of situations of immidiete self defence or defence of others it's not the role of random people off the street to make that call. Only the law in the form of a proper officiol trial and jury and judge can make that decishion. Whilst it's mixed up with the whole conscription thing that ultimatly puts the world govermetns firmly in the wrong, that is one part of why the world goverments are coming together to try and step in and control the avengers in civil war. It's not the role of superheroes to decide what the law is or to be judge jury or executioner. Their super powered police.

[GloatingSwine]

To clarify in case it wasn't clear I hold that Hope accepting her prison term and doing her time and than moving on with her life would have been better for her than stabbing herself in the throat and bleeding out - that is of course a matter of opinion and the 'she is better off having stabbed herself in the throat and bleeding' position is no less valid.

So you think innocent people should go to prison "for their own good"?

Nice to know where you stand on that.

Also you don't seem to have been paying attention to the show. The point was not to capture Kilgrave to put him on trial, the point was to prove that he exists and what he could do. The point was to capture him in the act of using his powers to compel someone to do something in order to introduce reasonable doubt into the trial.

This would also have meant that Jessica was allowing someone else to go through exactly what she did, holding on to the guilt of something Kilgrave made her do.


Note this does not detract from the show as an emotional piece dealing with the survivor of abuse - it does detract from Kilgrave as a supervillian (or even a regular villain, frankly he is merely guy with his own childhood trauma who never grew up making him act a child).

It's not about that, it's about abusive relationships and controlling partners. It's also about the social perception that the victim of the abusive relationship is complicit in their own abuse. Which is the entire point of Kilgrave as a character and the overall lack of belief in him on the part of anyone not directly affected by him.



He served his purpose for the show, but part of his purpose seems to have been to show how messed up Jessica was and how she wasn't thinking straight even when someone else suggested the correct (ethically if not morally) course of action (i.e Simpson suggesting she kill him- which she eventually did).

Jessica was thinking exactly straight. Killing Kilgrave would have ensured an innocent woman went to prison.

[dancrilis]

So you think innocent people should go to prison "for their own good"?

Nice to know where you stand on that.
Firstly that is a strawman arguement - you are misrepresenting the position, which is:
Hope being dead is worse for her than her being alive (from a certain point of view at least).



Also you don't seem to have been paying attention to the show.
And this is passive aggressive - attacking someones potential attentiveness to setup the dialogue where your viewpoint might appear more valid, and no I was paying fine attention.


The point was not to capture Kilgrave to put him on trial, the point was to prove that he exists and what he could do. The point was to capture him in the act of using his powers to compel someone to do something in order to introduce reasonable doubt into the trial.
Making Hope's potential freedom more valuable than all the other people that actually died in trying to capture him - innocent unconnected people at that who never signed up to give thier lives for hopes freedom.
All for the hope that a jury would buy reasonable doubt - which seemed to still be a longshot.


This would also have meant that Jessica was allowing someone else to go through exactly what she did, holding on to the guilt of something Kilgrave made her do.
So what - innocent people died in some fairly harsh ways to allow someone to not be seen publicly guilty of the crime, a crime that even if a jury acquitted them for the media would have had a field day with over the reasonable doubt piece.



It's not about that, it's about abusive relationships and controlling partners. It's also about the social perception that the victim of the abusive relationship is complicit in their own abuse. Which is the entire point of Kilgrave as a character and the overall lack of belief in him on the part of anyone not directly affected by him.
The show is about many things I don't think it is wrong to say it's about 'abusive relationships and controlling partners', but I hardly think that precludes my comment about the show 'as an emotional piece dealing with the survivor of abuse'.



Killing Kilgrave would have ensured an innocent woman went to prison.
Not really if his body could prove his powers - but anyway an innocent woman seems to be going to prison anyway and a lot of other people are dead.


Jessica was thinking exactly straight.
Taking these last two quotes in reverse order as this seems to be the core of our disagreement - your version of thinking straight resulted in the foreseeable deaths of a number of people including the one she was trying to help. Further her thinking also had her almost walk into a prison as a murderer without any plan beyond that other than that Kilgrave would arrive and hi-jinks would ensue - but perhaps you would exclude that from your general view of her thought pattern (or perhaps justify it).

[Xondoure]

Hindsight is 20/20. Could someone have guessed that capturing and exposing Kilgrave wasn't going to go as smoothly as they had hoped? Yes. But that doesn't mean the choices they made are the "wrong" choices simply because they didn't work. Jessica tried to do the right thing, which was expose Kilgrave and exonerate the innocent. If this was a comic book story from a different era she would likely have succeeded and Hope would be living free, with Jessica's conscious set firmly at ease. But this is not one of those stories, so going for the most possible good option got a lot of people killed instead. This in turn forced Jessica to reevaluate her position and do the dirty job she should have done from the beginning. This is why at the end of it all Jessica cannot consider herself a hero. She failed to protect too many people, and she was forced to kill Kilgrave to end it.

Basically, just because the characters didn't make the optimal decision does not make this a bad story. In fact, any story in which the classic heroic position is taken and it backfires horribly is an important subversion for heroism as a whole. Just because Kilgrave would have been dead many times over if the heroes had made different choices doesn't make him a bad villain either. In fact, the hero needing the villain to be alive is woven beautifully into how abusers make the people they abuse need them to play on both of the series' central themes. It's as old as the Joker and Batman. From the beginning, Kilgrave is playing on Jessica's desire to protect the innocent to manipulate her without directly using his powers, and Jessica knows this. And she still decides to expose him over finishing him, either because she can't turn that part of her humanity off, or because she won't let him take that from her too.

[Dienekes]

Hindsight is 20/20. Could someone have guessed that capturing and exposing Kilgrave wasn't going to go as smoothly as they had hoped? Yes. But that doesn't mean the choices they made are the "wrong" choices simply because they didn't work. Jessica tried to do the right thing, which was expose Kilgrave and exonerate the innocent. If this was a comic book story from a different era she would likely have succeeded and Hope would be living free, with Jessica's conscious set firmly at ease. But this is not one of those stories, so going for the most possible good option got a lot of people killed instead. This in turn forced Jessica to reevaluate her position and do the dirty job she should have done from the beginning. This is why at the end of it all Jessica cannot consider herself a hero. She failed to protect too many people, and she was forced to kill Kilgrave to end it.

Basically, just because the characters didn't make the optimal decision does not make this a bad story. In fact, any story in which the classic heroic position is taken and it backfires horribly is an important subversion for heroism as a whole. Just because Kilgrave would have been dead many times over if the heroes had made different choices doesn't make him a bad villain either. In fact, the hero needing the villain to be alive is woven beautifully into how abusers make the people they abuse need them to play on both of the series' central themes. It's as old as the Joker and Batman. From the beginning, Kilgrave is playing on Jessica's desire to protect the innocent to manipulate her without directly using his powers, and Jessica knows this. And she still decides to expose him over finishing him, either because she can't turn that part of her humanity off, or because she won't let him take that from her too.

I don't think anyone has said this was a bad story. Quite the contrary it's pretty good.

The contention (for me) was if Kilgrave was a strong enough villain to carry a 13 episode show. And the rest sort of all spun out of that.

No, I don't expect everyone to make the 100% optimal solution at every turn in the story. But, having the solution laid out so blatantly only to be ignored until it's been proven right. And realizing that Kilgrave was ultimately not smart enough to really have a battle of wits with Jessica ultimately hurt the story and character to the point I rated it below Daredevil. The show I considered possibly one of the top 3 things the MCU has produced.

The rest is just nitpicking details as to why myself and others felt he ultimately was a bit weak as a villain despite having one of the most terrifying super powers in fiction.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm very much in the "Non-killing" camp. It's a very fine line when you take it upon yourself to start dealing out justice on your own. Jessica wanted to be a Hero, a protector. Not a masked vigilante bringing fear unto the streets.

I don't recall Jessica being against killing him for moral reasons but was more along the lines of the only way to help Hope was to capture him.

Then she kept him prisoner, tortured him with childhood videos for little purpose, and engaged in other ill-thought out means of torturing him into a confession, which of course would hold up in court which would of course ignore the imprisonment, torture, and duress angle :smallyuk:



Entirely fair. I have no problem with people disagreeing, Hell my sister thinks he's the best villain Marvel's ever made (though that may be her Doctor Who fangirl talking) only when they say I'm wrong and then don't give suitable proof to disprove an opinion.

Funny, my gf HATES the Tenth Doctor and thought David Tenant nailed it as Kilgrave because "he finally revealed his true colors."


Hope was screwed. And in attempting to un-screw Hope's situation Hope ended up dead. And Hope even said she was willing to go to prison and she wanted Kilgrave dead.

Really the big problem is, while we're shown Jessica's motivations when you look back at the story after it's over it turns out Simpson was 100% right about everything he said. Kilgrave was too dangerous and every second he was left alive they were endangering other people. I'm curious how many people would have survived if Simpson just shot Kilgrave initially. Hope, for certain, the old suicide bomber lady next door, the lawyer's ex-wife, Kilgrave's parents, a few random people, and technically not-Lester Freamon, though that's not on Kilgrave himself.

I've always been a bit puzzled with why the viewers are so against outright killing the villain at times. Sure, in the comics it makes sense to keep the favorite villains alive for the next story. But, in law there are cases of justifiable homicide, where killing someone is done to defend oneself or others. In numerous opportunities that Jessica had to kill Kilgrave it would have qualified as a justifiable homicide. Definitely more justifiable than shock torture and kidnapping are.

About as easy practically speaking to qualify a Kilgrave killing as justifiable homicide as it would be to get Kilgrave on murder charges, but the rest here is spot on.

Let's keep the discussion on whether Jessica should have gone for the kill to the story angle. We know that, first she wasn't going to kill him, then she actually did kill him. i'm pretty sure the part of the point of the story is that she should have killed him earlier.


As to the PTSD discussion. I'll re-iterate that nothing I have read on the subject ever says that any event will suddenly cure it. Literally nothing, I'd be willing to read evidence for how to fix a neurological disorder in one simple event but, again, I've found nothing to support this.

I hope she recovered from her PTSD. She really needs another excuse to be screwed up for Season two.

The question isn't "Is Kilgrave A good enough villain for a 13 episode series." The question is "Is his role in Jessica's origin something she can get away from." Because as good a villain as he may of been for season one I don't want to see flashbacks of him all throughout season two and beyond.

[TimeWizard]

There's something that I don't understand that I thought would be explained. Its a spoiler, so here we go.

Why did Reva have Kilgrave's USB of experiments? Did that get answered or was it a sequel hook?

I spent the whole series waiting for a dark reveal and some emotional torque but it just kinda seemed like a random aside.

[TimeWizard]

And yet, with all his great plans at not being discovered, it takes Simpson and Jessica, what, 2 episodes together to get him in a position where they could have easily just shot him? Simpson even called for that plan, and if they had done it, it would have worked out better for literally everyone on the show.

Yes, it makes total sense that he'd be a spoiled brat with no ambition and no social skills. It is a completely consistent and logical character. However, that doesn't make him a villain that can carry a 13 episode tv show. As soon as it was revealed how much of a naive lovestruck fool he was it was pretty much curtains for him. At that point the only reason he was not easily defeated by Jessica and her merry band was because they kept getting in their own way, not because he was intelligent.

That said, his powers are terrifying, truly horrifyingly terrifying. His character? Much less so.

The only reason Simpson et al even have the chance to take on Kilgrave, who is exactly as mortal as the rest of us, is that he has an obsession with a woman who has immunity to his power. He's clearly toying with Jessica because of how unhinged he is, without that Simpson would have killed Trish and then himself. The whole plot of the show is built around that one weakness. If he wanted Jessica dead he could have just gotten Malcolm to shoot her on a Tuesday or have Cage snap her neck while she slept.

Kilgrave is (probably intentionally) a look at how bored a person becomes living life on Godmode.

[Sholos]

The criticism that Jessica should have killed Kilgrave at the very start because of how everything turned out is terribly invalid for one simple reason. None of you could have predicted with surety that Hope was going to die, and certainly none of the characters had any reason to think that was going to happen. Saying that Jessica made the wrong decision because Hope died is the epitome of the phrase "Hindsight is 20/20", along with blaming Jessica for anyone else that came to harm. It's remarkable that Jessica is taking the blame for Kilgrave's actions. Truly remarkable.

[Clertar]

There's something that I don't understand that I thought would be explained. Its a spoiler, so here we go.

Why did Reva have Kilgrave's USB of experiments? Did that get answered or was it a sequel hook?

I spent the whole series waiting for a dark reveal and some emotional torque but it just kinda seemed like a random aside.

It's related to Luke Cage's past. When Jessica gave him the USB key, she told him that she had only looked at the Kilgrave videos but that there was a lot more in there. It's probably all connected to experiments to turn people into gifted humans.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

The criticism that Jessica should have killed Kilgrave at the very start because of how everything turned out is terribly invalid for one simple reason. None of you could have predicted with surety that Hope was going to die, and certainly none of the characters had any reason to think that was going to happen. Saying that Jessica made the wrong decision because Hope died is the epitome of the phrase "Hindsight is 20/20", along with blaming Jessica for anyone else that came to harm. It's remarkable that Jessica is taking the blame for Kilgrave's actions. Truly remarkable.

The issue I have isn't "Hey she should have killed him" it's "Why did the writer go out of his way to give her such a no kill thought process just to force her to kill him in the end?"

In retrospect she was wrong, and would have saved more lives by letting Nuke kill him. Now the fact that she didn't know that (because none of us really did) doesn't change the broken Aesop.

[Milo v3]

In retrospect she was wrong, and would have saved more lives by letting Nuke kill him. Now the fact that she didn't know that (because none of us really did) doesn't change the broken Aesop.

I'm relatively sure that's part of the point. That's why hope killed herself, to purposely break the aesop so that the hero can do what must be done rather than what should be done.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

I'm relatively sure that's part of the point. That's why hope killed herself, to purposely break the aesop so that the hero can do what must be done rather than what should be done.

that just doesn't sit right with me... not at all.

[themaque]

that just doesn't sit right with me... not at all.

I think that was the point as well.

[Milo v3]

that just doesn't sit right with me... not at all.

That is generally the case when someone commits suicide.

[Zalabim]

So, obviously Officer Simpson should have just walked up to Kilgrave in a crowded cafe and shot him dead in cold blood. Hope would definitely do her time, her life still ruined. No way does Simpson just walk away from that, especially with the security detail there. Jessica and Trish might get roped in too for the conspiracy. Luke likely still tracks down his wife's "killer" and murders the bus driver, so he goes away too. So now every hero and villain is dead, in jail, or on the run, and the one innocent person is definitely not saved. Show's over. Nobody lived happily. Ever. Even if Jessica and Trish stay out of legal trouble, I don't think they'd ever try heroics again if they just let Officer Simpson go down for murdering a supervillain.

[McStabbington]

He served his purpose for the show, but part of his purpose seems to have been to show how messed up Jessica was and how she wasn't thinking straight even when someone else suggested the correct (ethically if not morally) course of action (i.e Simpson suggesting she kill him- which she eventually did).

. . . But he wasn't correct. He might have arrived at the ultimately optimal conclusion, but process matters, and Simpson's process was entirely about wedging himself into the plan, then rewriting the plan on his own whenever his instincts told him too. No attempt to consult with JJ or Trish, no attempt to coordinate, no attempt to function as a team, despite the fact that a) Jessica had by far the greater experience with Kilgrave, to say nothing of the fact that b) Jessica had far greater reason to stop him.

None of that mattered to Simpson even before he red-pilled. The only thing that really mattered to him was regaining his sense of control and power. And if Hope had to live forever in a psych ward or 8x8 prison cell because he needed his control back, that was fine with him. Which was actually telegraphed right from the start when he would crowd Trish when she asked him not too; his own need to feel okay about the situation trumped hers.

In a story that's all about how the need for power and control can damage victims and warp those who act upon it, Simpson's actions are anything but subtext.

[Xondoure]

I don't think anyone has said this was a bad story. Quite the contrary it's pretty good.

The contention (for me) was if Kilgrave was a strong enough villain to carry a 13 episode show. And the rest sort of all spun out of that.

No, I don't expect everyone to make the 100% optimal solution at every turn in the story. But, having the solution laid out so blatantly only to be ignored until it's been proven right. And realizing that Kilgrave was ultimately not smart enough to really have a battle of wits with Jessica ultimately hurt the story and character to the point I rated it below Daredevil. The show I considered possibly one of the top 3 things the MCU has produced.

The rest is just nitpicking details as to why myself and others felt he ultimately was a bit weak as a villain despite having one of the most terrifying super powers in fiction.

In my view, having the option to kill him so blatantly pointed out was part of what made the tragedy hit so hard. The best kinds of tragedies are the ones everyone sees coming, and are ultimately powerless to stop (see: the basic format of a tragedy.) As I said before, Kilgrave's best trick the entire show is forcing Jessica to want him alive. I also don't understand the complaint about him being unable to outsmart Jessica in the end. Of course he wasn't: Kilgrave's tragedy is that his goal is unattainable despite the enormity of his power. In the end, that weakness is so exploitable it wasn't a question of wits, but when.

I will also say, that given how many times the conversation has turned to holding Jessica accountable for the deaths she wasn't able to stop, and how that is precisely what Kilgrave does to avoid blame for his actions through the series... well, maybe he's a better manipulator than people are giving him credit for without his powers.

[Reddish Mage]

In my view, having the option to kill him so blatantly pointed out was part of what made the tragedy hit so hard. The best kinds of tragedies are the ones everyone sees coming, and are ultimately powerless to stop (see: the basic format of a tragedy.) As I said before, Kilgrave's best trick the entire show is forcing Jessica to want him alive.

Jessica decision to keep Kilgrave alive may be flawed, and it may be the stupid superhero in her, but it is what makes the show. Jessica starts off trying to ignore Kilgrave, then she tries to capture him, once she captures him she tries to torture out a confession (alternating between metaphorical and literal torture).

If Jessica started off determined to kill Kilgrave, if she wasn't conflicted, she wouldn't be the hot mess that made this show so psychologically gripping. It would have just been another detective murder thriller you could have saw on CBS, with a mind control angle.




I will also say, that given how many times the conversation has turned to holding Jessica accountable for the deaths she wasn't able to stop, and how that is precisely what Kilgrave does to avoid blame for his actions through the series... well, maybe he's a better manipulator than people are giving him credit for without his powers.

I have to say if there are any failures to the show, its not showing, in a highly visible and clever fashion, Kilgrave as a master manipulator. He does some pretty messed up and masterful manipulations...he gets Jessica's neighbor to spy on her, without his powers (well...much). He gets Jessica to do what he wants, live with him, even consider staying with him, without his powers. He gets Hogarth to free him...yet the way they play it it seems to be more idiot-ball on the part of others then mastery of the manipulative angle on Kilgrave's part.

We know he programs people to do his bidding, LOTS of people (which means he needs to have a pretty well rehearsed schedule since his powers only last 14 hours)... and he has very detailed programs running. Yet what we see on camera seems highly spontaneous, even whimsical. Telling Jessica to hack her ears off and then stop isn't the work of someone who thinks through his actions.

Kilgrave mentions being paranoid about attention, yet he walks right into a police station, debates Trish on-air, and allows himself to be a person-of-interest in a high profile murder case. Some of those actions go beyond believable (particularly the way he lets Hope just walk out of jail, his actions on that case left a paper trail a mile long and all over the media).

In the end, Kilgrave-on-camera relies on the fact that people cannot, will not, accept that he is real, that he has these capabilities, and would prefer to clean up after him and pin the blame for his activities on the innocents. That turns out to be done very well and is very plausible.

However, his actions on-screen in the end aren't that smart. They don't suggest someone who manipulates at the level Kilgrave gets away with and when the shows away and the logic of the narrative is examined on the way to the fridge, the show fails on the level plenty of other shows fail at: the story doesn't add up to something (and someone) believable.

I don't believe Kilgrave is someone who does or could exist, even bracketing the superpower angle. That mind control could be so powerful as to allow a man to walk through New York casually murdering and using cops, top lawyers, judges and other members of the rich and powerful to do his bidding without having the social chops and skills to influence himself into the ranks of the elite.

As it is, this was a very good show, and easily one of my favorites in the last few years. But if Netflix was able to pull THAT OFF, this would have been one of the best, most chilling, and most horrifying shows ever.

[Dienekes]

So, obviously Officer Simpson should have just walked up to Kilgrave in a crowded cafe and shot him dead in cold blood. Hope would definitely do her time, her life still ruined. No way does Simpson just walk away from that, especially with the security detail there. Jessica and Trish might get roped in too for the conspiracy. Luke likely still tracks down his wife's "killer" and murders the bus driver, so he goes away too. So now every hero and villain is dead, in jail, or on the run, and the one innocent person is definitely not saved. Show's over. Nobody lived happily. Ever. Even if Jessica and Trish stay out of legal trouble, I don't think they'd ever try heroics again if they just let Officer Simpson go down for murdering a supervillain.

You are vastly overestimating how difficult it is to get away with murder. Looking just at New York the last 5 years, there are roughly 400 murders a year, of which only about 250 actually get solved. The security detail didn't see Simpson, they saw Jessica try and carry away the body. Simpson's apparently capable of buying guns without a license which means that there is no ballistic trail to follow. Kilgrave has no actual identity, so there would be no leads on that end. There is nothing to connect Jessica to the John Doe the police were just handed. Furthermore, there was evidently no video evidence, since otherwise the car chase through Manhattan would have ended up on the news. No, this would have been a damn near unsolvable murder.

Luke killing the bus driver is unconnected. Though I would love to live in this world of yours where all murderers go straight to prison and there is ample evidence to prove it. Of course that might be my Chicagoan in me talking. I'm pretty sure if the police were able to arrest all the actual murderers in Chicago alone the entire Illinois prison system would be flooded with people. Chicago has a very high murder rate.

[Reddish Mage]

Looks like someone is underestimating the power of attention on an issue. Most murder that are not solved is between victims that are organized crime-related (such as gang on gang violence) or "random," where the victim doesn't know the killer.

There is a clear reason
"Crimes of passion" are solvable (https://web.archive.org/web/20100528120453/http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2010/may/21/percentage-killings-go-unsolved-has-risen-alarming/) the other sorts of killings aren't very easy to solve.

Luke killing the bus driver isn't the sort of murder that cops would have trouble tracking down if they did even routine digging. He had clear motive, left behind plenty of evidence that he was plotting this murder (incidently he was guilty of conspiracy to murder, which is a pretty serious crime in itself), and may have even left behind some pretty identifying signs (like you know, super-strengthing the guy).

Simpson killing a protected guy in a restaurant in the light of day, followed by a shoot-out with the security (if he doesn't get killed, which is more likely) would be a harder case...but somehow I think the cops having a perfect sketch of a prominent guy on their own payroll, and the actions of a private security firm with a reason to go after him, would produce something.

By the way I've checked several sources on this, but the number of murders in Chicago is below 500 this year (http://heyjackass.com) and even if you count all the shootings (which don't always result in death), there's not nearly as many murderers as there are drug offenders.

Nationwide, more murders result in convictions then don't. So no, its not that easy to get away with murder. Not if you have a relationship and want the guy dead, and not if it happens in front of armed security in a crowded restaurant and certainly not when you are someone known to the police and there are security cameras.

And also...not when there is a solid amount of media attention on a case as was true in Hope's situation.

[Dienekes]

Looks like someone is underestimating the power of attention on an issue. Most murder that are not solved is between victims that are organized crime-related (such as gang on gang violence) or "random," where the victim doesn't know the killer.

There is a clear reason
"Crimes of passion" are solvable (https://web.archive.org/web/20100528120453/http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2010/may/21/percentage-killings-go-unsolved-has-risen-alarming/) the other sorts of killings aren't very easy to solve.

Luke killing the bus driver isn't the sort of murder that cops would have trouble tracking down if they did even routine digging. He had clear motive, left behind plenty of evidence that he was plotting this murder (incidently he was guilty of conspiracy to murder, which is a pretty serious crime in itself), and may have even left behind some pretty identifying signs (like you know, super-strengthing the guy).

Simpson killing a protected guy in a restaurant in the light of day, followed by a shoot-out with the security (if he doesn't get killed, which is more likely) would be a harder case...but somehow I think the cops having a perfect sketch of a prominent guy on their own payroll, and the actions of a private security firm with a reason to go after him, would produce something.

By the way I've checked several sources on this, but the number of murders in Chicago is below 500 this year (http://heyjackass.com) and even if you count all the shootings (which don't always result in death), there's not nearly as many murderers as there are drug offenders.

Nationwide, more murders result in convictions then don't. So no, its not that easy to get away with murder. Not if you have a relationship and want the guy dead, and not if it happens in front of armed security in a crowded restaurant and certainly not when you are someone known to the police and there are security cameras.

And also...not when there is a solid amount of media attention on a case as was true in Hope's situation.

No Luke would totally have been caught, he did it all wrong. If he actually did it in this alternate universe, which again, has more to do with Jessica owning up to it. Which she would have done if Kilgrave was alive or dead at the time.

But you're forgetting things. The shoot out with the security didn't happen until after Jessica grabbed the unconscious Kilgrave. No one saw Simpson. He got in, shot, and got out. No one chased him to the car, he was simply waiting there peacefully when Jessica arrived carrying a body and with the security on her tail. The security in question weren't sitting behind security cameras, they were inside the restaurant and then called in back up.

Simpson had no connection with Kilgrave. Simpson's weapon had no connection with him, unless he was dumb enough to use his police issue revolver which, while I don't think over highly of Simpson's intelligence I do not think he's that stupid.

It's nice that Chicago is down in murders this year, but that's irrelevant, though good news. Though also, according to a WBEZ report while Chicago's murders are down apparently so are the percentages of murders closed per year. Though we're doing better than our all-time low in 2013. Go Chicago, slowly but surely becoming slightly less of an embarrassment.

But Chicago's stats, even the rest of the countries stats, don't really matter. What matters is New York stats, where they'd have a little less than a 50% chance of being caught all things being equal. And looking at the evidence of some random guy getting shot in a restaurant with no public record and no connection to the actual shooter, no I don't see anything happening.

[Reddish Mage]

OK Simpson may not have gotten caught. However on the broader question of how realistic it is of people waltzing around killing people casually and getting away with it (and Kilgrave is beyond serial killer at this point), and how the cops treat it when it does happen. When you see on television villains and heroes going around in the light of day killing people and there's never very much of an investigation (True Blood), is that realistic, is it rosy colored the more common television where the cops take every murder seriously and investigate?


Whether it's the 65% national average or the 40% New York Ave. bridge, the point is not the rate of conviction. The point is that murder it is something that police take seriously, follow up on, tend to get convictions on when there's evidence and connection between killer and victim, and even in so-called murder capitals, murder simply isn't a very common crime.

Murders get notice , they get investigated, and True Blood is soft murder porn and also soft vanilla porn as well.

[Xondoure]

That isn't really the kind of manipulation I was referring to Reddish Mage. More just that his version of the narrative is uncannily similar to a lot of the critiques made on Jessica, both by herself and the audience.

[Reddish Mage]

That isn't really the kind of manipulation I was referring to Reddish Mage. More just that his version of the narrative is uncannily similar to a lot of the critiques made on Jessica, both by herself and the audience.

Kilgrave's version of the narrative? I don't quite get how what he narrates mirrors what Jessica or the audience thinks about the show

Also, I had to lookup what I said, can you please quote me if your responding to something I said on the top of the page and not, you know, any of the stuff that I've talked about since then .

(for future reference I said Kilgrave isn't such a good manipulator in substance and on-camera but theirs plenty that suggests he is a master at it)

[Milo v3]

However on the broader question of how realistic it is of people waltzing around killing people casually and getting away with it (and Kilgrave is beyond serial killer at this point), and how the cops treat it when it does happen.
Except he didn't kill them, the person committed suicide or some random person with no affiliation with kilgrave kills them. There is no reason to assume kilgrave is a murder when he has never been linked to a crime.

Also, I should say, that the type of manipulation kilgrave does is a different sort to a charismatic subtle manipulator. He is an abuse manipulator. They are very different in how they operate.

[Zalabim]

Knowing what we know after the fact about Simpson, I do believe he could get away with murder with the help of his buddies and a shadowy organization. Knowing what we know now after the fact that Simpson ends up responsible for 75% of the plan ****ups after the attempted kidnapping(and Hogarth the rest), we should be perfectly happy to let him handle the murder and the fallout if he can't get away with it and keep Jessica out of it to help Malcolm, Luke, and Kilgrave's other victims, but not Hope. However, there's no way that Jessica believes a cop she just barely met is capable of assassinating Kilgrave in the open street, let alone getting away with it. It'd be a complete failure as a hero to let a cop do that.

There's no certainty he could succeed without her help either, since she provided a distraction at the last second and got the body away faster than anyone else could have. He managed to avoid the aftermath in the first case because shooting a dart gun isn't as obvious as a handgun. It would have been a complete disaster had he shot Kilgrave but not killed him nearly instantly.