[3.PF] Level 30, Mythic 10 Wizard vs the 40K universe.

[The Vagabond]

As listed in the title, but with a twist:

The level 30 wizard, who is a Mythic Archmage tier 10, has to make the world of 40k a happy place, and fix as many problems as he can. How much can the epic wizard fix the universe?

Presume that any spell that affects magic, affects psykers, and psychic powers affect magic as they affect other psykers, HOWEVER, magic is in no way connected to the warp.

How can the Wizard make the world of 40k a better place? What can he do to make the 40k Universe a better place? If he can't, how far does he get?

R1: No infinite loops, No Epic Spells
R2: No Infinite Loops, Epic Spells
R3: Infinite Loops, no epic spells
R4: Everything goes.

[khadgar567]

As listed in the title, but with a twist:

The level 30 wizard, who is a Mythic Archmage tier 10, has to make the world of 40k a happy place, and fix as many problems as he can. How much can the epic wizard fix the universe?

Presume that any spell that affects magic, affects psykers, and psychic powers affect magic as they affect other psykers, HOWEVER, magic is in no way connected to the warp.

How can the Wizard make the world of 40k a better place?

R1: No infinite loops, No Epic Spells
R2: No Infinite Loops, Epic Spells
R3: Infinite Loops, no epic spells
R4: Everything goes.
r1 khorne owns
r2 chaos united owns( nurgle does nothing)
r3 chaos united owns again
r4 even tau owns wizard

[thethird]

*cast teleport through time*
*show eldar their future if they keep their funsies*

*cast teleport through time again*
*bitch slap the Emperor, twice*
*cast simulacrum to get nannies for the primarchs*
*raise them as functional members of society capable of creating and mantaining bonds*

Alternatively teach mindrape to the Tau. All hail the hypnotau.

[Studoku]

Alternatively teach mindrape to the Tau. All hail the hypnotau.
This isn't just good. This is The Greater Good.

[Platymus Pus]

Eventually that wizard is going to go where he shouldn't. Like say in the middle of a warp storm created by The God Emperor of Man. That's when he dies.

[icefractal]

Infinite loops allowed - consider an arbitrarily large army of arbitrarily powerful creatures, which can include not only Ice Assassins of any 40k creature, but augmented version of those IAs. Seems like that would be pretty effective.

No loops - a tougher question. The Wizard could probably remain alive via Astral Projection and such, but holding any territory to make improvements in is questionable. If it takes any resources at all for the Wizard to deal with, say, a Tyranid, then he's lost, because there are enough of those to run him out of everything.

Working behind the scenes seems more likely to work, but work at doing what is the question. Could the Wizard make one faction more likely to succeed/fail, or intensify the current state of war? Probably. Could he make things better or more peaceful? Not so sure, the whole 40k universe seems to be tilted against that.

[Jack_Simth]

Mythic Tier 10?
"Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact."

... I'm not overly familiar with Warhammer, but... do they actually have anything that would get rid of Mr. Epic Mythic Wizard for good?

With Pathfinder stuff involved, you can skip material components via Blood Money. With 3.5 stuff involved, you can arrange to skip XP components via Agony/Ambrosia (and can set up farms for either). An Immortal Wizard who astral projects from a private demiplane is going to be... well,

Part of the answer here depends on what you count as infinite loops. Given time, this character can have an arbitrarily large number of Simulacrums, just by 'Cast Blood Money, cast Pathfinder Wish for Pathfinder Simulacrum'. He's taking everything out of his spell slots (which he can replenish in an hour of rest, thanks to one of the things that comes natively from Mythic Tier 10).

With the right build, he probably can't be stopped (create permanent demiplane; create minion capable of dispelling astral projection and casting Sending; seal demiplane against planar intrusion; Astral Project out, do whatever. Minion Sends the Wizard periodically. If the Wizard doesn't reply, Sends again. If Wizard does not reply to three Sendings in a row, dispel Astral Projection, which retrieves Mr. Wizard and all gear).

What can he do, though? Well, if he takes Legendary Item (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicItems/legendaryItems.html#legendary-items) a few times, he can be "Undetectable" - completely and explicitly - that's an Artifact (and thus, doesn't get damaged or destroyed), that always returns to him when he wants it (returning twice), and prevents Mr. Wizard from aging ("Everlasting"). This (perhaps a ring of invisibility as the base?) allows Mr. Wizard to reliably go wherever he pleases and never get caught.

So he has a large (arbitrarily so, depending on how patient he is) number of fairly powerful servants (and the Pathfinder version of Simulacrum is not dependant on getting a piece of the original), can pack them up easily (Shades (Trap the Soul) on a Simulacrum = pokeball; stuff into bag of holding. Invert bag, dispel them all at once, and bam: Instant Army), and can't ever be found. Scry, Greater Invisibility, Greater Teleport, Mindrape, Greater Teleport away on all the leaders, perhaps? I don't know much about the warhammer universe; does the place have anything that would successfully defend against repeated use of that tactic by someone that can't be found, can't be killed, and can't be captured?

[Platymus Pus]

Scry, Greater Invisibility, Greater Teleport, Mindrape, Greater Teleport away on all the leaders, perhaps? I don't know much about the warhammer universe; does the place have anything that would successfully defend against repeated use of that tactic by someone that can't be found, can't be killed, and can't be captured?
Throw them into the warp. :smalltongue:
But that tactic isn't going to really work, neither is the patient thing going to really work.
To put into numbers what the wizard is up against from one faction alone.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/8/8a/Tyranid_Hive_Fleets_Galaxy_Map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140512084816
http://41.media.tumblr.com/9b9b5cb388fc2b9f9f12837970a72062/tumblr_njqvnoeOSC1tp1stlo7_1280.jpg
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan
If he tries to scry and die it'd backfire, because the things he'd be trying to scry and die are like gods and not the puny ones you see statted. They'd know he's dropping by before he knows himself.

[Jack_Simth]

Throw them into the warp. :smalltongue:
Warp is disconnected from magic in this scenario. Astral Projection either ends (effectively dispelled), or is suppressed and he's trapped in a state of nothingness.

If it ends, he just recasts and ends up elsewhere. If it's suppressed and he's trapped... he'll fail the Sendings three times in a row, and the minion dispels the Astral Projection from the body side, at which point, he's free, recasts, and ends up elsewhere.


But that tactic isn't going to really work, neither is the patient thing going to really work.
To put into numbers what the wizard is up against from one faction alone.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/8/8a/Tyranid_Hive_Fleets_Galaxy_Map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140512084816
http://41.media.tumblr.com/9b9b5cb388fc2b9f9f12837970a72062/tumblr_njqvnoeOSC1tp1stlo7_1280.jpg
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan
If he tries to scry and die it'd backfire, because the things he'd be trying to scry and die are like gods and not the puny ones you see statted. They'd know he's dropping by before he knows himself.I'm not seeing stats that give their actual abilities anywhere on there, although that could be because the wiki is handling history across multiple editions, so the stats would be pointless. And, of course, there's the pesky issue that if he stays invisible (and he can - if his Legendary Item (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicItems/legendaryItems.html#legendary-items) is a ring of invisibility with intelligence, then it doesn't even cost him an action (ring recasts on it's own); he just casts Superior Invisibility immediately before anything that would cause it to potentially go down, and he's fine), then he's got a *Major Artifact* that says "Undetectable: This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method." (emphasis added)

Now, if the critters in question are straight-up unstatted, then the answer to "can a wizard beat them?" is "it depends: Does the plot require him to do so?" - it is effectively unanswerable.

If the critters in question have stats where you can map a will save, then we potentially have options for figuring out what DC he'll have, how many castings would be required to penetrate said save (on average) and other things.

Do the critters in question have stats?

[AvatarVecna]

Making the 40k universe a better place? Easy.

Step 1: Don't go anywhere near any of the factions yet; instead, ward up your personal demiplane to be virtually impregnable from intrusion, even by other wizards of your caliber level. Once you've become functionally untouchable via Demiplane/Astral Projection/other long-lasting buff spells, you should (as a Wizard 30) have at least 5 9th level spells per day left for wrecking people.

Step 2A: Under this step, the idea is that the 40k Universe is rotten to the Core and must be exterminated for the Greater Good. Your five 9th level spells per day are (after a plane shift from your Demiplane to the Material), Time Stop (maximized via greater metamagic rod of maximize), Interplanetary Teleport: in orbit around some planet, open Gate from Material Plane to Elemental Plane of Fire, open Gate on other side (that is right next to the other side of the first gate) that leads to the surface of a star on the Material Plane, Interplanetary Teleport to somewhere not about to be experiencing heat waves so extreme they're literally visible for the handful of nanoseconds you still have unmelted eyes. Plane Shift back to your Demiplane just before Time Stop ends.

Alternatively...

Step 2B: Under this step, the assumption is that the general populace will benefit from a power vacuum in their corrupt governments. Get your hands on lots and lots of diamonds; at least a few hundred thousand worth. Begin casting Wish for the "teleport anyone anywhere to anywhere else" function, using 25k worth of diamond each time. You have to bypass DR and they have to fail a Will save, but that shouldn't be too hard for a wizard of your caliber.



Please note that I know next to nothing concrete about the capabilities of 40k universe beings; the above two methods are methods I believe could be considered "overkill" in most universes as a means of taking out the enemy, but the power of the 40k universe is infamously higher than in a lot of other settings, so I'm sure that if my tactics don't actually work, somebody will be along to inform me of why.

[Sayt]

Mythic Tier 10?
"Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact."


Going by the PF Bestiary and making some assertions based on nothing more than "Well, hmmm.." I'd say that any given Greater Demon has a few Mythic Ranks, maybe the better Demonic Heralds have one or two, and any demon weapon containing a such a herald or Greater Demon probably counts as an intelligent artifact.

Basically what it boils down to, IMHO, is Tzeentch (Literally the god of Just As I Planned) and 'Our' wizard start playing precognition Chess, or a Lord of Change or Tzeentch learn how to Wizard cast by remote scrying.

That, or the Wizard was Tzeentch all along. Or Alpharius!

More seriously, there's a problem in that a lot of the anti-psyk stuff doesn't work to shut down magic under the provider transparency rules: Blunts and pariahs are AMFs by virtue of being warp-disconnected. Khornate magic Immunity from things like Brass Collars and the associated AMFs... might work?

Also, are we running on the stupid loophole that parts of demons/gods/whatever high level thing in the MM can be found in a spell component pouch because there's no listed price?

[Jack_Simth]

More seriously, there's a problem in that a lot of the anti-psyk stuff doesn't work to shut down magic under the provider transparency rules: Blunts and pariahs are AMFs by virtue of being warp-disconnected. Khornate magic Immunity from things like Brass Collars and the associated AMFs... might work?
If those do map to AMF's, then it's still not really a problem. Simulacrums are Instant, can be manufactured, and a rather lot of other types aren't suffering from that issue.

So Mr. Wizard makes some shock troops just in case he needs them, and Mindrapes the leaders of the ... apparently many other factions... who aren't immune into handling those that are immune. Cuts down on how 'nice' the solution is, but deals with the problem.

Also, are we running on the stupid loophole that parts of demons/gods/whatever high level thing in the MM can be found in a spell component pouch because there's no listed price?
Irrelevant. PF got rid of that component in Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum). It's now just an ice statue of the target and powdered rubies.

[Platymus Pus]

Do the critters in question have stats?

Besides the number of them already making up physical numbers of galaxies in mass? That is a tiny branch of the leviathan.
He's going to be detected anyway invisible or not, certain characters just know. As in they know.
Things that know the future will detect him fine.

Interplanetary Teleport: in orbit around some planet, open Gate from Material Plane to Elemental Plane of Fire, open Gate on other side (that is right next to the other side of the first gate) that leads to the surface of a star on the Material Plane, Interplanetary Teleport to somewhere not about to be experiencing heat waves so extreme they're literally visible for the handful of nanoseconds you still have unmelted eyes. Plane Shift back to your Demiplane just before Time Stop ends.
Sounds like a good way of getting rid of the fire plane. Time stops exist in WH40k as well.

You have to bypass DR and they have to fail a Will save, but that shouldn't be too hard for a wizard of your caliber.
Actually it would be, the will saves would be ludicrously high for anything, there are hiveminds the size of galaxies and characters are able to hold them back with just mental prowess, along with gods and what is equivalent to an entire plane of infinite chaos... at the same time.

[Sayt]

If those do map to AMF's, then it's still not really a problem. Simulacrums are Instant, can be manufactured, and a rather lot of other types aren't suffering from that issue.

So Mr. Wizard makes some shock troops just in case he needs them, and Mindrapes the leaders of the ... apparently many other factions... who aren't immune into handling those that are immune. Cuts down on how 'nice' the solution is, but deals with the problem.

Irrelevant. PF got rid of that component in Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum). It's now just an ice statue of the target and powdered rubies.

Instant? 12 hour casting time is instant?. Also, Ice Assassins does require a piece of the copied subject.

Generally speaking, I think there are just too many incomparables. Simulacrum has a HD cap, but how many HD does a Brood Lord or Hive Tyrant have? Are Simulacrums of Tyranids subjected to the 'nid hive mind?

Is a Titan a vehicle, object or creature? Are we using 3.5's object rules for or or PF's vehicle rules?


I think a high level wizard could carve off a neat little empire, just because of how fractured the galaxy is, but the whole thing? Not happening.

[dascarletm]

How would Culexus Temple Assassins interact with said wizard?

[Bluydee]

If those do map to AMF's, then it's still not really a problem. Simulacrums are Instant, can be manufactured, and a rather lot of other types aren't suffering from that issue.

So Mr. Wizard makes some shock troops just in case he needs them, and Mindrapes the leaders of the ... apparently many other factions... who aren't immune into handling those that are immune. Cuts down on how 'nice' the solution is, but deals with the problem.

Irrelevant. PF got rid of that component in Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum). It's now just an ice statue of the target and powdered rubies.

Problem is that the majority of the other faction's leaders are immune by virtue of other tricks or don't matter. Out of the major ones, the Imperium of Man has lots of people to be controlled, but in the end every man worships the God-Emperor of Mankind over serving any other guy, and the Emperor has an immunity called being a decayed corpse on a throne who's singlehandedly holding back the Chaos Gods. Plus, with the sheer number of people in the Imperium, it would take far too long to ever make a dent in the chains of command. The Necrons are robot skeletons, so Mindrape isn't going to affect them. The Tau could be controlled, but in the long run they aren't that powerful of a race. Orks have no structured government or chain of command and they get killed by each other enough that it would be impossible to control everyone, let alone organize them enough to do anything extreme, such as creating a galaxy-wide Waagh and willing everything put of existence. Tyranids have a single collective Hive Mind, but it is so complex that the most powerful psykers go insane and/or die from trying to even read it. Eldar could definitely be controlled, but against all the other factions they dan't do much either. I highly doubt the wizard could mindrape the Chaos Gods, and aside from them there aren't really any major players in Chaos that make a difference, aside from Abaddon or something.

[Tuvarkz]

I can see such a Wizard stopping the Horus Heresy in a variety of ways. The question is, how does he earn the Emps'/Magnus's trust?

[dascarletm]

Depends on who is writing this fan-fiction. Do they want to wizard to succeed?

[Jack_Simth]

Besides the number of them already making up physical numbers of galaxies in mass?
Correct, besides number of specific critters. If they do not have the reasonable equivalent of a will save, then they are a plot device, and any argument about what can / cannot affect them is pointless.

That is a tiny branch of the leviathan.
He's going to be detected anyway invisible or not, certain characters just know. As in they know.
Things that know the future will detect him fine.
Major artifacts break rules. He's got what's explicitly a major artifact saying "no". Plot device vs. Plot device. Which wins?

Actually it would be, the will saves would be ludicrously high for anything, there are hiveminds the size of galaxies and characters are able to hold them back with just mental prowess, along with gods and what is equivalent to an entire plane of infinite chaos... at the same time.
Do any of these things you are referencing have actual published stats, or are you just extrapolating?

If they have published stats, the discussion can go beyond what amounts to fans of one side saying "Mine will win!" and fans of the other side saying "Mine will win!". If they do not have published stats, then it's "Needs of the plot based on whoever is writing it" and the discussion won't get very far.



Instant? 12 hour casting time is instant?
In the intended usage, Instant is referring to the duration line, not the casting time. Among other things, an Instant spell is not affected by an AMF.

Also, Ice Assassins does require a piece of the copied subject.
Hence the reference to Pathfinder Simulacrum spell (which does not), rather than my mentioning anything about Ice Assasin.

Generally speaking, I think there are just too many incomparables. Simulacrum has a HD cap, but how many HD does a Brood Lord or Hive Tyrant have? Are Simulacrums of Tyranids subjected to the 'nid hive mind?

Is a Titan a vehicle, object or creature? Are we using 3.5's object rules for or or PF's vehicle rules?

Hence my continual asking after stats, with pretty much nobody saying more than what amounts to "In my opinion, this particular thing should have a super-duper-high save" yes. If they have something that we can reasonably map to a Will save, then the conversation can go somewhere. If they don't, then we can't.


Problem is that the majority of the other faction's leaders are immune by virtue of other tricks or don't matter. Out of the major ones, the Imperium of Man has lots of people to be controlled, but in the end every man worships the God-Emperor of Mankind over serving any other guy
Mindrape solves that aspect, seeing as how it's a full personality overwrite if needed.

, and the Emperor has an immunity called being a decayed corpse on a throne who's singlehandedly holding back the Chaos Gods
Command Undead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/commandUndead.html) and Control Undead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/controlUndead.html#control-undead) are both sor/wiz spells. Does the decayed corpse have official published stats so that we can map the equivalent of a Will save, or is he another case of "Plot device, who wins depends on the author"?

. Plus, with the sheer number of people in the Imperium, it would take far too long to ever make a dent in the chains of command. The Necrons are robot skeletons, so Mindrape isn't going to affect them.Control Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-construct) is a spell in Pathfinder.


The Tau could be controlled, but in the long run they aren't that powerful of a race. Orks have no structured government or chain of command and they get killed by each other enough that it would be impossible to control everyone, let alone organize them enough to do anything extreme, such as creating a galaxy-wide Waagh and willing everything put of existence.
Oh, it could be done well enough. Just make sure to equip the controlled commander with Eyes of Charming (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/eyes-of-charming) or other items to make the commander more survivable and able to deal with minions. A lot more time-consuming, but doable.

Tyranids have a single collective Hive Mind, but it is so complex that the most powerful psykers go insane and/or die from trying to even read it.
Again: Are there stats associated with this?

Eldar could definitely be controlled, but against all the other factions they dan't do much either.
So you don't pit them against all the other factions. If there are published stats for the various leaders, we can possibly map will saves and immunities well enough, and this discussion can go further than "Yah-huh!" "Nu-uh!". Otherwise, not so much.

I highly doubt the wizard could mindrape the Chaos Gods, and aside from them there aren't really any major players in Chaos that make a difference, aside from Abaddon or something.
Do they have stats?

[Sayt]

Command Undead and Control Undead are both sor/wiz spells. Does the decayed corpse have official published stats so that we can map the equivalent of a Will save, or is he another case of "Plot device, who wins depends on the author"?

The Emperor and Chaos gods do not have stats, and (Warhammer 40ks stats are at the very least wildly inconsistent depending on which edition or ruleset you're looking at.) The Chaos Gods are abstract entities derived from the psycho-planar reflection of sentient life. And the Emperor isn't actually dead yet, per say, he's just incredibly busy astral projecting a galaxy level Constant Point of Reference in a chaotic Psycho-plane. Theoretically he might be getting table-top stats in an upcoming expansion of the Forge World Horus Heresy campaign books, but none are extant. The Tyranid Hivemind doesn't have stats because it's a psychic gestalt of a very hungry locust swarm. It hasn't shown any sapient intelligence to my knowledge, but he continually evolves it's puppets to counter it's enemies strategies midwar as more soldiers are spawned. it hasn't been clarified whether or not each swarm has it's own hivemind, to my knowledge.

Also, hit dice don't map onto any of the Warhammer 40k products, but here's a shot at one of the Greater Daemons of Chaos, the Lord of Change.

According to Black Crusade, a percentile based RPG (And so perhaps a closer analogy to DND than the wargame), your average Lord of Change has an Intelligence of 99, perception of 72 and a Willpower of 81, each out of a possible 99. (Your average well-trained human being will have 25-35 in each, depending on their speciality) He automatically manifests any psychic powers aligned with Tzeentch or not aligned specifically with another chaos god with psychic power at Psy Rating 9, on a maximum of 10, without fail or any of the normal failure consequences for trying. Off the top of my head this lets him teleport between planets, create black holes, and puppetmaster dozens of people without effort or them knowing or being ware of the influence, astrally project. It has Common Lore (All)+20, Scholastic Lore (All) +20, Forbidden Lore (All)+20, so it's basically got a PhD in everything possible. His presence imposes a 20% penalty on willpower tests (Will saves?), and encountering it calls for a Willpower test (at a 30% penalty). Failure on this test calls for a shock test, the absolute best result you can get on it is basically staggered, the worst result is Toughness test or die. Passing merely knocks you out for 1d5 hours. And he can arbitrarily add it's int mod to a thing he'd like too once per session.

[Bonzai]

It's kind of a trick question. Make the Galaxy a better place for who?

Mankind? Resurrect the Emperor and the dead loyalist Primarchs. Hell, bring back Horus and take off his girdle of alignment change. This would unite humanity, and revitalize the Imperium.

Eldar? They would very much like to not have their souls eaten any more. Oh, and they would like all the other races to go away. So you would need to get rid of Slaanesh some how, then commit galactic genocide.

Orks? Naw... They are good. They are having the time of their lives. They don't want or need anything... Unless you want to put up a fight for them. In fact the best thing you could do for them is to oppose them. The harder you fight, the better.

Necrons? They would like for all the kids to get off their lawn. Also, they would like new bodies. If you can mass similacra some Eldar or Space Marine bodies and transfer their souls into them they would be set.

Tau? Plus Cha items for the water cast, teleportation items for the air caste, weapon enhancements for the fire caste, and fabricate items for the earth caste.

Nids? They would kindly request that all the nom-noms stop wasting their bio mass. Heroes feast items would be appreciated as well.

Chaos? The whole galaxy is in chaos, things are exactly the way they want them.

The problem is that if you improve things for one faction, it ruins things for other factions. Even if you destroy chaos, then you doom the universe to stagnation. You can't win.

[Platymus Pus]

Major artifacts break rules. He's got what's explicitly a major artifact saying "no". Plot device vs. Plot device. Which wins?

Future sight isn't a means of detection though. It's a means of knowing.
Wizard can't win, he's only one wizard and not the uber kind still. He's going to be swarmed by some faction because they have a headstart and multiply numbers faster than him.
Leaders are stronger than him as well.
Of course a certain bias is going to be made in a dnd forum if someone is going to post versus, because it really isn't made for that to begin with.
Not really a plot device to say the wizard can't win vs a whole universe of this caliber. People's actual take on a 50th level party. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?449276-50th-level-campaign) You don't see people suggesting anything like what WH40k is, party of level 50's would die epic spells or not.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/starwars-emperor-vs-warhammer-40k-emperor-1482543/
Basically wizard shows up starts messing with things he shouldn't, gets spotted from x light years away despite non-detection because there are still abilities that get past it artifact or not if you're going to be messing with factions, then gets warp stormed.
His soul gets knocked out of his body and then gets warp stormed again then he ceases to exist. Of course the wizard isn't going to know this.

[noob]

This wizard can create a mechanical Cthulhu if he wants and that might help him maybe.
Do people know a way of comparing Cthulhu to the 40K universe?

[Jack_Simth]

The Emperor and Chaos gods do not have stats... and yet, these are the things people are positing as being counters.

If they don't have stats, then it comes down to "They're a plot device", and when you're dealing with plot devices, which wins is "needs of the plot" - not debatable. Which makes the entire argument rather pointless, because as already pointed out, it boils down to:
Depends on who is writing this fan-fiction. Do they want to wizard to succeed?

[Quertus]

... and yet, these are the things people are positing as being counters.

If they don't have stats, then it comes down to "They're a plot device", and when you're dealing with plot devices, which wins is "needs of the plot" - not debatable. Which makes the entire argument rather pointless, because as already pointed out, it boils down to:

"You can't just control the major players because they can't be controlled (by mortal magic)" is a valid counter. They don't have stats because their stats wouldn't be worth having. They're kinda in a different tier than the Lv 30 wizard.

Believe me, I love things having proper stat blocks. But a proper stat block for a 40k god of chaos's will save? Um... what if we arbitrarily say it is (10^google^google)+x+y+z, where x = number of sentient* beings in the universe / 100,000, where y = number of sentient* beings in the universe that perform actions in accordance with the particular god's nature / 10,000, z = number of sentient* beings in the universe that know it exists / 1,000. * - "sentient" may be difficult to define given the various lifeforms and their interaction with the warp. Necrons, despite being sentient, would not add to a chaos god's will save; individual 'nids, despite not being sentient, probably would. Whatever their d20 equivalent stat block will save is, it would be as irrelevant to actually write down as this.

And, just like D&D gods (in at least some if not all editions) have rules like, "does not fail on a 1" and "ignores mortal magic", most of these stat-less counters have similar "ignore X unless you have the McGuffin of Plot (literally, the character being a part of the Plot)", which said wizard would not start with.

But the OP didn't say "can the wizard conquer the 40k universe", just "can he make it a happy place". And the answer is, he could... if the plot / fate / the collective will of the Empire didn't *believe* that the world was a terrible place. So, only a truly intelligent (and possibly 4th-wall breaking) wizard could actually research the nature of fate, to try to change the nature of fate, to be able to actually make the 40k universe a happy place.

Even time travel to try to fix things - which one would think *ought* to work, and would be the route I would go if I were RPing that my character didn't know better - would fail :( IIRC, time travel to fix things is *why* things went bad in the first place (at least in the fluff of some editions - or am I thinking Warhammer Fantasy? Even so, the mechanic "time travel causes the problems it sets out to fix" is an established Warhammer fluff mechanic).

Now, on the plus side, magic *not* using the warp would (should) make the wizard infinitely valuable at dealing with the 'nids and their "we use up the entire bandwidth of the warp". Which might free up the armies of the Imperium to deal with other problems. Which, of course, is ultimately meaningless, like everything else in the 40k universe. The collective consensus says so.

[khadgar567]

"You can't just control the major players because they can't be controlled (by mortal magic)" is a valid counter. They don't have stats because their stats wouldn't be worth having. They're kinda in a different tier than the Lv 30 wizard.

Believe me, I love things having proper stat blocks. But a proper stat block for a 40k god of chaos's will save? Um... what if we arbitrarily say it is (10^google^google)+x+y+z, where x = number of sentient* beings in the universe / 100,000, where y = number of sentient* beings in the universe that perform actions in accordance with the particular god's nature / 10,000, z = number of sentient* beings in the universe that know it exists / 1,000. * - "sentient" may be difficult to define given the various lifeforms and their interaction with the warp. Necrons, despite being sentient, would not add to a chaos god's will save; individual 'nids, despite not being sentient, probably would. Whatever their d20 equivalent stat block will save is, it would be as irrelevant to actually write down as this.

And, just like D&D gods (in at least some if not all editions) have rules like, "does not fail on a 1" and "ignores mortal magic", most of these stat-less counters have similar "ignore X unless you have the McGuffin of Plot (literally, the character being a part of the Plot)", which said wizard would not start with.

But the OP didn't say "can the wizard conquer the 40k universe", just "can he make it a happy place". And the answer is, he could... if the plot / fate / the collective will of the Empire didn't *believe* that the world was a terrible place. So, only a truly intelligent (and possibly 4th-wall breaking) wizard could actually research the nature of fate, to try to change the nature of fate, to be able to actually make the 40k universe a happy place.

Even time travel to try to fix things - which one would think *ought* to work, and would be the route I would go if I were RPing that my character didn't know better - would fail :( IIRC, time travel to fix things is *why* things went bad in the first place (at least in the fluff of some editions - or am I thinking Warhammer Fantasy? Even so, the mechanic "time travel causes the problems it sets out to fix" is an established Warhammer fluff mechanic).

Now, on the plus side, magic *not* using the warp would (should) make the wizard infinitely valuable at dealing with the 'nids and their "we use up the entire bandwidth of the warp". Which might free up the armies of the Imperium to deal with other problems. Which, of course, is ultimately meaningless, like everything else in the 40k universe. The collective consensus says so.
actually if wizard plays his/her moves correctly he or she might create a safe zone for humanity
as optimizers we are he needs to time jump and grab proper gene seeds to create legion of x ( his d&d magic based magus legions) than probably dig any dark age tech via more time jumps to make tham powerful enough to f with any one so he needs lot of time jump spell to
plus he needs to become evolutionary mad scientist to survive there( aka make abominations from annt race he founds

[Jack_Simth]

"You can't just control the major players because they can't be controlled (by mortal magic)" is a valid counter.That's a statement that basically amounts to "They have plot armor." Until things get official published statistics, the characters involved are made of handwavium, and arguments about them can't really go anywhere, because it's just what one fan believes about them vs. what another fan believes about them.

[thethird]

Mythic Tier 10?
"Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact."

... I'm not overly familiar with Warhammer, but... do they actually have anything that would get rid of Mr. Epic Mythic Wizard for good?

With Pathfinder stuff involved, you can skip material components via Blood Money. With 3.5 stuff involved, you can arrange to skip XP components via Agony/Ambrosia (and can set up farms for either). An Immortal Wizard who astral projects from a private demiplane is going to be... well,

Part of the answer here depends on what you count as infinite loops. Given time, this character can have an arbitrarily large number of Simulacrums, just by 'Cast Blood Money, cast Pathfinder Wish for Pathfinder Simulacrum'. He's taking everything out of his spell slots (which he can replenish in an hour of rest, thanks to one of the things that comes natively from Mythic Tier 10).

With the right build, he probably can't be stopped (create permanent demiplane; create minion capable of dispelling astral projection and casting Sending; seal demiplane against planar intrusion; Astral Project out, do whatever. Minion Sends the Wizard periodically. If the Wizard doesn't reply, Sends again. If Wizard does not reply to three Sendings in a row, dispel Astral Projection, which retrieves Mr. Wizard and all gear).

What can he do, though? Well, if he takes Legendary Item (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicItems/legendaryItems.html#legendary-items) a few times, he can be "Undetectable" - completely and explicitly - that's an Artifact (and thus, doesn't get damaged or destroyed), that always returns to him when he wants it (returning twice), and prevents Mr. Wizard from aging ("Everlasting"). This (perhaps a ring of invisibility as the base?) allows Mr. Wizard to reliably go wherever he pleases and never get caught.

So he has a large (arbitrarily so, depending on how patient he is) number of fairly powerful servants (and the Pathfinder version of Simulacrum is not dependant on getting a piece of the original), can pack them up easily (Shades (Trap the Soul) on a Simulacrum = pokeball; stuff into bag of holding. Invert bag, dispel them all at once, and bam: Instant Army), and can't ever be found. Scry, Greater Invisibility, Greater Teleport, Mindrape, Greater Teleport away on all the leaders, perhaps? I don't know much about the warhammer universe; does the place have anything that would successfully defend against repeated use of that tactic by someone that can't be found, can't be killed, and can't be captured?

There have been canon immortals in 40k, theoretically capable of returning from being athomized, who have been taken out of the picture before. One such method to eliminate a perpetual has consisted on hooking him to life support when he is on the verge of dying.

Problem with the 40k universe is the warp (or more specifically it's unclam inhabitants) and while the magic is completely unrelated to it the wizard actions still hold effect on the warp. The plot still relies on both magic and convoluted plans both portfolios of Tzeentch god of Magic, Scheeming, Rainbows, Hope, Ambition, Birds, and other stuff. Tzeentch is a chaos god, and the chaos gods aren't powered by worship but by doing things aligned to them, by the wizard's mere existence Tzeentch grows stronger. Chaos nature means that all forces have an opposition Tzeentch opposite is Nurgle, amongst whose traits/portfolios there is actually Happyness.

Fighting Tzeentch sounds pretty fun, there is a canon guy who is convinced he is doing exactly that, with wizardry, almost infinite immortal minions, being great at hide and seek, and incredibly good planing/scheming. He happens to be the best wizard equivalent in the setting, at least in power, and considered by Tzeentch it's chosen (despite the guy not revering the god at all, and wanting to do his own thing).

Summing up, to turn the 40k universe into a happy universe (by nowadays standards) you need to calm the warp A LOT. Or travel to a time when it was calm and keep it calm. And THEN implement the solution.

[dascarletm]

Isn't Khorne the opposition of Tzeentch
/nitpick

[Platymus Pus]

That's a statement that basically amounts to "They have plot armor." Until things get official published statistics, the characters involved are made of handwavium, and arguments about them can't really go anywhere, because it's just what one fan believes about them vs. what another fan believes about them.
Except one has a series of books made of them and the another is actually a slash fiction level 30 wizard.
Doesn't really work that way.


"You can't just control the major players because they can't be controlled (by mortal magic)" is a valid counter. They don't have stats because their stats wouldn't be worth having. They're kinda in a different tier than the Lv 30 wizard.

Believe me, I love things having proper stat blocks. But a proper stat block for a 40k god of chaos's will save? Um... what if we arbitrarily say it is (10^google^google)+x+y+z, where x = number of sentient* beings in the universe / 100,000, where y = number of sentient* beings in the universe that perform actions in accordance with the particular god's nature / 10,000, z = number of sentient* beings in the universe that know it exists / 1,000. * - "sentient" may be difficult to define given the various lifeforms and their interaction with the warp. Necrons, despite being sentient, would not add to a chaos god's will save; individual 'nids, despite not being sentient, probably would. Whatever their d20 equivalent stat block will save is, it would be as irrelevant to actually write down as this.

And, just like D&D gods (in at least some if not all editions) have rules like, "does not fail on a 1" and "ignores mortal magic", most of these stat-less counters have similar "ignore X unless you have the McGuffin of Plot (literally, the character being a part of the Plot)", which said wizard would not start with.

But the OP didn't say "can the wizard conquer the 40k universe", just "can he make it a happy place". And the answer is, he could... if the plot / fate / the collective will of the Empire didn't *believe* that the world was a terrible place. So, only a truly intelligent (and possibly 4th-wall breaking) wizard could actually research the nature of fate, to try to change the nature of fate, to be able to actually make the 40k universe a happy place.

Even time travel to try to fix things - which one would think *ought* to work, and would be the route I would go if I were RPing that my character didn't know better - would fail :( IIRC, time travel to fix things is *why* things went bad in the first place (at least in the fluff of some editions - or am I thinking Warhammer Fantasy? Even so, the mechanic "time travel causes the problems it sets out to fix" is an established Warhammer fluff mechanic).

Now, on the plus side, magic *not* using the warp would (should) make the wizard infinitely valuable at dealing with the 'nids and their "we use up the entire bandwidth of the warp". Which might free up the armies of the Imperium to deal with other problems. Which, of course, is ultimately meaningless, like everything else in the 40k universe. The collective consensus says so.
Basically, wizard isn't going to really get anywhere here unless he submits to the will of some entity and it's at that point he's failed anyway.
Which leaves us at.
If he can't, how far does he get?

But the OP didn't say "can the wizard conquer the 40k universe", just "can he make it a happy place"
Is there a difference?

[thethird]

Isn't Khorne the opposition of Tzeentch
/nitpick

No, not really. Check their enemy gods.

Khorne (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khorne) vs Slaanesh (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slaanesh)

Tzeentch (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch) vs Nurgle (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nurgle)

i.e.

Hate vs Lust & Hope vs Despair

[khadgar567]

No, not really. Check their enemy gods.

Khorne (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khorne) vs Slaanesh (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slaanesh)

Tzeentch (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch) vs Nurgle (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nurgle)

i.e.

Hate vs Lust & Hope vs Despair
emperor of morons(blood for god emperor, skulls for golden throne) vs reality

[noob]

Take 28 levels in wizard and two level in artificer and taste the following rules

Artificier crafting rules
"The magic item creation guidelines are used, and for the purpose of emulating prerequisites, the artificer’s effective CL equals his class level +2. However, if the item duplicates a spell effect, the statistics of that effect use the artificer’s actual level."
And negative level rule
"The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed"
Take three negative levels and now you have as an artificier a caster level of -1
You can create an infinitely negative value item thanks to a level 1 spell with a CL of -1
You create an infinitely massive black hole made of gold.
I would like to know if it works and if an infinitely massive black hole would have any effect in the Warhammer 40K universe.
If it completely freeze time in the entire universe thanks to relativity you can say that there is no longer anything sentient and so that everybody is happy.

[Cirrylius]

Apparently the best way to destroy a 40k faction is to be a 40k faction.

The best way for an epic-plus wizard to be a 40k faction is to take a faction.

Rather than messing around with coups and mind control, wouldn't it be easier to do it biologically, instead, hard-code your needs into a cosmically pre-distributed race? Something you could reprogram again once they became obsolete or counterproductive?

Use epic magic to hax the Ork spore into a cheese-riddled mycocryptid nightmare that can hold its own against the other galactic threats, and make it infectious against other Orks. Then use teleport/minionmancy abuse to spread the spore everywhere. Hopefully gene-spliced Ork defenders can counter as the Warp surges into the vaccuum left behind.

Even if it doesn't work outright, now everybody's been depleted of exotons* of resources and troops, and all it's cost you is a couple years effort, a few million gold, and a chunk of xp, so it wouldn't even set you back, meaningfully.


*disclaimer- actual tons may be on a magnitude either more or less than exotons

[Quertus]

That's a statement that basically amounts to "They have plot armor." Until things get official published statistics, the characters involved are made of handwavium, and arguments about them can't really go anywhere, because it's just what one fan believes about them vs. what another fan believes about them.

IIRC, 2e gods were immune to mortal magic, but almost trivially easy to kill with brute force. That's not plot armor, that's stats. Wasn't trying to say (or give) plot armor with this statement, just saying that the set of words "immune to your spells because immune to your spells" is valid, just like "immune to your fire because immune to fire" is valid, and not composed of handwavium.

Unfortunately, 40k has plot armor literally built in - things explicitly work because of belief in that universe. More so than in WoD Mage, IMO - and without there being PCs (or even NPCs) who directly realize or control it, AFAIK. A few of the examples I've been told of the power of belief in 40k:

Ork genius builds Orkie Vehicles. Only puts gas in one. That one works. Ork tries to figure out why. Notices he painted that one red. Believes he as found the reason. Tells other Orks that the red ones go faster. They believe it. Now the red ones go faster. There's even a rule by that name in the wargame, that if you paint Ork vehicles red, they get extra movement. Because the Orks believe they do.

OK, not actually undead, but the daemon-possessed. Placing sacred scripts etc on these abominations keeps the daemon in check and under control (sort of). Why? What is special about these things? Nothing. They work because the people believe that they do.


Take 28 levels in wizard and two level in artificer and taste the following rules

Artificier crafting rules
"The magic item creation guidelines are used, and for the purpose of emulating prerequisites, the artificer’s effective CL equals his class level +2. However, if the item duplicates a spell effect, the statistics of that effect use the artificer’s actual level."
And negative level rule
"The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed"
Take three negative levels and now you have as an artificier a caster level of -1
You can create an infinitely negative value item thanks to a level 1 spell with a CL of -1
You create an infinitely massive black hole made of gold.
I would like to know if it works and if an infinitely massive black hole would have any effect in the Warhammer 40K universe.
If it completely freeze time in the entire universe thanks to relativity you can say that there is no longer anything sentient and so that everybody is happy.

Brilliant! Only have one problem with it - your use of the word "now".

See, creating items take time. That time is based on their value. In this case, an infinitely negative amount of time. So, back before time, before the beginning of the universe, you have an infinite black hole.

I think we solved the mystery of how the universe was created!

[dascarletm]

Take 28 levels in wizard and two level in artificer and taste the following rules

Artificier crafting rules
"The magic item creation guidelines are used, and for the purpose of emulating prerequisites, the artificer’s effective CL equals his class level +2. However, if the item duplicates a spell effect, the statistics of that effect use the artificer’s actual level."
And negative level rule
"The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed"
Take three negative levels and now you have as an artificier a caster level of -1
You can create an infinitely negative value item thanks to a level 1 spell with a CL of -1
You create an infinitely massive black hole made of gold.
I would like to know if it works and if an infinitely massive black hole would have any effect in the Warhammer 40K universe.
If it completely freeze time in the entire universe thanks to relativity you can say that there is no longer anything sentient and so that everybody is happy.

I don't think you can create a black hole from creating a bunch of matter. It needs to be compressed in some fashion. This is usually done via a supernova to my knowledge.

The gold would have to collapse into a star and then supernova. Being heavier than iron I don't think it would, but someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Gemini476]

Really, this is like asking "can a Mythic 10 Wizard 30 beat the Lady of Pain?"

No, they can't. Why? Because the rules of the setting say that they can't. In this case, Chaos can't be defeated without killing pretty much everyone since that's how it works. (And logistics is a major issue since the 40k setting is extremely large and cumbersome, but that's a different problem.)


Also, even a solution as "simple" as Wishing the Emperor back to health also leads to billions being stuck in the Warp as the Astronomican flickers and the Webway Gate beneath the Throne erupting with daemons and all manners of horrible unintended consequences.
And even then, with the Emperor back and leading his people, things aren't just suddenly fixed. The Eye of Terror still exists, the Necron are still a threat, the Hive Fleets are still doing their best to devour the galaxy. And Imperial bureaucracy is absolutely abysmal. (They lost planets through filing errors.)


By the way, for those talking about timetravel: IIRC the primary method for such (Teleport Though Time) has some kind of rubber-banding paradox shenanigans associated with it? Like, even if you go back in time and try to get all of the Eldar killed before they can party Slaanesh into existence then tens of thousands of years later you'd still have some kind of Eldar and Dark Eldar analogues running around being angry about the God of Perfection.
There's probably some other ways to timetravel that I can't remember now, although IIRC there's a note in that one time duplicate Epic Spell that Epic Spellcasting can't be used big time travel.



Also, since this is Pathfinder we're talking about, Interplanetary Teleport seems kind of horrible if you're in a new universe and don't have an intergalactic map? Especially when spells like Contact Other Plane seem like they'd be either extremely useless or extremely perilous depending on what interpretation you want to go with.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

He would need to find a way to make mankind and tyranids go extinct. The chaos gods almost exclusively feed off of mankind. Kill their food source and kill or severely weaken them. Tyranids you would need to find their homeworld go back and time and blow up the world with stolen tech from 40k.

[WolfLordBran]

I might have missed it in the thread's beginning but did anyone say that Mr Wizard wouldn't attract various Warp-Beings' attentions by casting his spells? It's all well and good that you can reshape reality with a flick of your finger but if you suddenly become a Meat Gate because an Enslaver found you or a Psychneun deposited warp-eggs in your brain and made your head asplode like you took a bolter round to the face, that cosmic power doesn't mean too much.

Edit: Seems I did miss it. Though it seems a bit odd that you're giving him a blanket immunity to the baked-in threat of wielding "Magic" (Psyker! Burn the witch!) in 40k. So Mr Wizard has a flat out advantage over everyone else.

[noob]

I don't think you can create a black hole from creating a bunch of matter. It needs to be compressed in some fashion. This is usually done via a supernova to my knowledge.

The gold would have to collapse into a star and then supernova. Being heavier than iron I don't think it would, but someone correct me if I am wrong.

"Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours"
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
So you would need only eight hours and not an infinitely negative time.

[Grim Portent]

He would need to find a way to make mankind and tyranids go extinct. The chaos gods almost exclusively feed off of mankind. Kill their food source and kill or severely weaken them. Tyranids you would need to find their homeworld go back and time and blow up the world with stolen tech from 40k.

The way time travel and predicting the future works in 40k means that probably isn't possible.

In 40k certain events are inevitable, they cannot be changed or prevented by any means, any attempt to change them just facilitates them. Examples include the Horus Heresy, the scattering of the Primarchs, the Night Lords vendetta against the Eldar Craftworlds and the birth of Slaanesh. It's likely that the Tyranids are one such event, and trying to destroy them in the past would be in some way a contributing factor to them becoming inter-galactic super locusts.

[Platymus Pus]

"Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours"
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
So you would need only eight hours and not an infinitely negative time.

Still need infinite.

[noob]

Infinite what?(Sorry it is just that I do not understand)

[dascarletm]

"Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours"
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
So you would need only eight hours and not an infinitely negative time.

I wasn't claiming it would take negative time. I was postulating that creating a large amount of gold may not collapse into a black hole without it being compressed. I'm not sure on this though.

[noob]

Sorry I replied to another post while quoting yours.(I can only blame myself for forgetfulness)

[Togo]

... and yet, these are the things people are positing as being counters.

If they don't have stats, then it comes down to "They're a plot device", and when you're dealing with plot devices, which wins is "needs of the plot" - not debatable.

The question was about the interaction between a high level wizard and a setting. You were expecting a setting to have stats?

The question was whether said wizard would have capabilities that would impact the setting. It doesn't look they would, all that much. He'd probably make a decent planetary governor, but that's probably about the limit.

[khadgar567]

The question was about the interaction between a high level wizard and a setting. You were expecting a setting to have stats?

The question was whether said wizard would have capabilities that would impact the setting. It doesn't look they would, all that much. He'd probably make a decent planetary governor, but that's probably about the limit.

buddy vanilla wizard dont effect anything wizard / space marine gestald via some way.then you start talking because even space marine neophyte is like large well optimized fighter to dnd with full on end of adventure geared one they are lot tougher than your average fighter hell even your paladin with jacked up on buffs even before they chosen as neophyte they already have a decent body count may include a d&d dragon or two killed in unarmed combat they fire fully optimized siege ammo( standard issue bolter ammo) as normal crossbow ammo( wood with iron tipped sold as 50 packs).
dont forget a simple neophtye will have high ( around +30 or more) will save that they may laugh on wizards fully optimized ( insert op spell) attack