Awarding XP by quest completion instead of killing

[Arael666]

So, I got the idea fom the mmo Dungeons and Dragons Online. In the game, when you get a quest you are awarded xp by it's completion, not by slaying monsters inside it's instance, though you can get "bonuses" by slaying a certain amount of criters, disabling traps or completing "optionals".

I want to try and use that mechanic in my table so the group has a more "realistic" view of the game... I guess that is not the right word... It's just that I think this would encourage "normal behavior". For example, the way things are now a group would try and slay every creature inside a dungeon, looking for more XP, rather than ignoring pointless fights (pointless by "real world standards"). With the change, it doesnt matter if you slay 50 or 500 orcs, your xp would be the same or slightly different.

My problem beeing: treasure. The mmo balances it with low drop rates of "good" items and grinding of special materials to craft items worth having, and also by limiting what a character can wear by level (you need to be at least lvl 11 to wear +6 ability item, and even them it's not even that good of an item). How do you guys think I should limit treasure? Or this idea is just not woth pursuing?

[daremetoidareyo]

XP is easy.

Here's what I do.

a) You get XP for overcoming opponents. (Not necessarily kill) If your wisdom and prudence allow you to directly bypass or render inert an opponent, you can have the xp for that.

b) You get XP for overcoming quests. 500xp at low levels to multi-thousands depending on the length of campaign. These rewards allow you to pace yourself. Quest rewards are for when you want the whole party to level up, or nearly level up at the end of a long session. I choose to dole out xp because of casters, legacy items, and all those xp draining options need to have their costs felt. If you have no xp draining PCs, you can simply say, "level up."

c) You get roleplaying XP that I mark down on my sheet behind the screen that I hand out at the end of the night. 50-100xp a pop for handling an encounter well, while remaining in character, particularly if such roleplaying required some sort of adroitness or some sort of sacrifice of optimization. I want your PCs to make in-character decisions, and I will reward you for doing so. I make a little note next to each award, so when I dole out 750 xp to the paladin halfling, I can itemize the list of roleplaying reasons that were accumulated.

When the minionmancer who spent the entire night trying to find a way to resurrect more chickens, asking important NPCs where to get even more dead animal bodies, and initiating combat with a few other PCs gets his 100xp for his/her positive interaction with the goblin hostage, they still feel good that they got bonus XP. They also get to see the type of roleplaying decisions I encourage. I don't list those frustrations I had with those other behaviors, I just list the things that I enjoyed about their addition to the game. I usually allow 1 flaw at 1st level, so substantively roleplaying your flaw can also net you extra xp as well as grant a feat.

d) I tend to ignore WBL as anything other than a guideline. So I don't really change the amount of gold/gear that I hand out just because I give out more XP than the books say I should. Level 1 sucks, nothing is better than getting to level 2 so that you can stop killing rats in the butcher's basement and you can finally pass a few gather information checks.

e) Written believable backstory allows a character to begin with 100 XP or 500 gp. Half that if they are an orphan. In the history of the world, being an orphan has never been a mechanical advantage.

f) Sometimes, only 1 or 2 people show up to play. This is where the backstories come in. We'll roleplay a prequel, where one of the backstories is used as the story arch. The other player can use a pregen, or even a relative of their current character (same character sheet as their current PC). And we do an adventure based on their past. The weird thing here is that the PC cant die, and death doesn't really affect any spare players, but these guys showed up. So, they can keep any xp, but the rates are different: roleplay xp is dealt out at full value, everything else is halved. The players usually wind up with a few more connections that they can rely on later, "Hey, remember that time when you were a kid and you led the other kid refugees away from the stirge plague? You know how you thought that you lost that golden timepiece? I found it in my satchel, and I kept it all this time." If one of the other players had to use a pre-gen, they get karmic XP. They can either use it as normal or convert to gold at 5 times the xp amount for their main storyline character.

That way, people who showed up still advance their PCs. Other people didn't have their characters killed behind their backs.

g) I like to keep the very rough pace at about 1 level per session until level 5. Until 12 level or so, about 2 sessions per level. After that....honestly, after level 12, Half of the crew can't make it regularly anymore, new people want to join, but making a 12th level character for a newbie is a bad idea due to system familiarity stuff. Very few campaigns make it all the way to 20. But real life and real girl/boyfriends hate campaigns that make it all the way to 20.

To wrap up: Quest: retrieve spell book from bugbear cave being used as war camp.

You can, in theory, get xp for avoiding a bugbear patrol on your quest, get roleplay xp for taking a bugbear hostage and releasing him to the authorities later, get quest xp for retrieving the book and returning, get karmic xp for a session where only you showed up, wherein you plumbed the depths of why you became a rogue, and then get CR xp for defeating the ambush set by the surviving bugbears, the same bugbears that you already got xp from avoiding the day before.

[Nobot]

Well, to be fair, fighting 500 orcs instead 50 should yield extra XP. And if your group actually enjoys the grinding, then I wouldn't stop it :smallsmile:

If, however, you want to award XP based on quest completion, I would definitely do so as the poster above me described: combine it with 'overcoming' of enemies as well, and maybe role-playing, too. But I'd take care to balance it: you risk under-rewarding players if XP comes in bulk at the end of each quest (especially if there are players who don't join for every session).

[Arael666]

a) You get XP for overcoming opponents. (Not necessarily kill) If your wisdom and prudence allow you to directly bypass or render inert an opponent, you can have the xp for that.

I get that idea, but my problem is when want to take certain actions because doing that would wield more XP, not because it is the "logical" thing to do.


b) You get XP for overcoming quests. 500xp at low levels to multi-thousands depending on the length of campaign. These rewards allow you to pace yourself. Quest rewards are for when you want the whole party to level up, or nearly level up at the end of a long session. I choose to dole out xp because of casters, legacy items, and all those xp draining options need to have their costs felt. If you have no xp draining PCs, you can simply say, "level up."

I try to avoind the "you guys can level up now". I don't know if other people feel like that, but I think it as a form of railroading. I didn't "earn" that level up, it simply is the rigght time for me to level up. It feels that no matter what I do, I will never be able to interfere (whether advancing or delaying th


c) You get roleplaying XP that I mark down on my sheet behind the screen that I hand out at the end of the night. 50-100xp a pop for handling an encounter well, while remaining in character, particularly if such roleplaying required some sort of adroitness or some sort of sacrifice of optimization. I want your PCs to make in-character decisions, and I will reward you for doing so. I make a little note next to each award, so when I dole out 750 xp to the paladin halfling, I can itemize the list of roleplaying reasons that were accumulated.

I never award xp for roleplaying. It's a prerequisite, it should't have to be rewarded. I know my opinion probably will be considered a bit stick-in--mud, but I don't see me changing it anytime soon, sorry about that.


d) I tend to ignore WBL as anything other than a guideline. So I don't really change the amount of gold/gear that I hand out just because I give out more XP than the books say I should. Level 1 sucks, nothing is better than getting to level 2 so that you can stop killing rats in the butcher's basement and you can finally pass a few gather information checks.

I also don't usually follow wealth by level in a strict manner, but with my idea the players could amass a ridiculous ammount of treasure very fast, simply by slaying countless monsters. By the way, I think the excuse "none of those have anything worth selling" or "you didn't find any giants after seaching for them in those 56 hills" terrible and flat out bad DMing. I would give up the idea before I use such excuses.


g) I like to keep the very rough pace at about 1 level per session until level 5. Until 12 level or so, about 2 sessions per level. After that....honestly, after level 12, Half of the crew can't make it regularly anymore, new people want to join, but making a 12th level character for a newbie is a bad idea due to system familiarity stuff. Very few campaigns make it all the way to 20. But real life and real girl/boyfriends hate campaigns that make it all the way to 20.

I tend to let the players set their own pace, if they are efficient and daring adventurers, completing various quests and overcoming many challenges they level up fast. I think it's just fair, if you work hard you level up fast, if you don't you level up slow.



Well, to be fair, fighting 500 orcs instead 50 should yield extra XP. And if your group actually enjoys the grinding, then I wouldn't stop it :smallsmile:

Actually, that was just an exaggeration. If I ever implant such system the reward would be something like this:

Quest: Descend into the sewers of "generic city" and eliminate troglodytes tha have nested there.
Level: 4th
Base XP reward: 1.100
Main Objective:

Break through the troglodyte infestation and reach the Vent Room
Destroy all 6 barricades that block the sewer vents
Find the troglodyte hatchery
Slay Matriarch Sishliss

Optional Quests:
Slay Witch Doctor Elhioc (+15% of base xp)
Slay Chief Shyrasser (+15% of base XP)

Bonus XP:

Aggression bonus: 40 or more monsters killed +5% of base xp.
Onslaught bonus: 65 or more monsters killed +10% Bonus.
Conquest bonus: 90 or more monsters killed +15% Bonus.

[Bronk]

I just wanted to point out that there are already rules for all kinds of story awards are right in the DMG on page 40, but XP is also generally given out for 'overcoming a challenge', not just killing enemies, which is covered on page 36.

Overcoming a challenge can be killing an enemy, but it can also be defeating them, routing them, bypassing them, and so on, and surviving traps.

[Arael666]

I guess I'm not making myself perfectly clear. What I mean to do is awarding xp ONLY by quest completion (and related bonuses), that is killing, putting enemies to sleep, toleplaying etc would not yeild xp.

[LudicSavant]

The most common oversight I see is not scaling XP gains from sources other than encounters so that the XP river effect doesn't happen (thus punishing players with LA buyoff or item creation or XP-cost spells or whatever).

As for treasure, one option is to just try to adjust quest rewards and the like to correspond with the rate at which they're gaining XP. You've gotta be rather flexible in your approach if you want to try to maintain WBL.

Alternatively there could be reasons that looting everything you kill is impractical, be it plot reasons or homebrew/world building reasons (such as the idea of "soulbound" magic items, so that magic items can't be wielded by those who aren't their intended wielder. You know, like the cyborg katanas in Metal Gear Solid lore).

[Arael666]

The most common oversight I see is not scaling XP gains from sources other than encounters so that the XP river effect doesn't happen (thus punishing players with LA buyoff or item creation or XP-cost spells or whatever).

As for treasure, one option is to just try to adjust quest rewards and the like to correspond with the rate at which they're gaining XP. You've gotta be rather flexible in your approach if you want to try to maintain WBL.

Alternatively there could be reasons that looting everything you kill is impractical, be it plot reasons or homebrew/world building reasons (such as the idea of "soulbound" magic items, so that magic items can't be wielded by those who aren't their intended wielder. You know, like the cyborg katanas in Metal Gear Solid lore).

I'm not trying to maintain WBL, I'm just trying to find a way for it not get thrown out of the window like a used rag. The way I'm envisioning things, it can get ridiculous pretty fast.

The soulbound items is a very good idea, it's ideas like that that I'm looking for. Thank you.

[Yahzi]

xp by it's completion, not by slaying monsters
I went the other way.

In my game you only get XP for killing. XP is literally a substance in creature's brains; you harvest it to gain levels and make magic items. XP is tangible and can be bought/sold at 5 gp per 1 XP.

The primary source of XP for nobles are the peasantry; so as your peasants die (preferably of old age) you get the XP to buy levels, which you use to protect your peasants. Adventurers, lacking estates of peasants, have to go out into the wild and kill "monsters." The monsters of course are doing the same thing; many of them prey on humanoids because humanoids are good at making lots of peasants.

Yes, players will hunt down every last enemy, but that's OK, because that's where the treasure is: in their heads. The entire game is basically predicated on the idea that XP is a resource to be managed, just like gold and spell slots and hit points; but then they inexplicably went and made XP something only the DM was allowed to manage. What a bore! And a chore.

Under my system the players decide whether to level or buy a new magic item. Think of the last time you deducted XP from the party to give to their hirelings or followers; then consider in my world the players voluntarily squandered twice as much on their little guys. WBL becomes self-correcting; the slaughter of sentient beings becomes a necessary feature of life for everyone; kings and dukes are rightfully feared because they are powerful; feudal estates with thousands of peasants have a reason to exist and to be protected; mages will make magic items and demons will make deals because there is a universal currency; the Shadowclypse is prevented because Shadows need XP to spawn and Genie wish exploits are blocked because Genies need XP to cast wish; and more. The benefits are amazing, and players love it.

Although to be fair I had to tweak the XP curve by doubling it at every step. That means that high-levels don't chase down ordinary orcs because it's just not worth their time.

[Arael666]

I went the other way.

In my game you only get XP for killing. XP is literally a substance in creature's brains; you harvest it to gain levels and make magic items. XP is tangible and can be bought/sold at 5 gp per 1 XP.

The primary source of XP for nobles are the peasantry; so as your peasants die (preferably of old age) you get the XP to buy levels, which you use to protect your peasants. Adventurers, lacking estates of peasants, have to go out into the wild and kill "monsters." The monsters of course are doing the same thing; many of them prey on humanoids because humanoids are good at making lots of peasants.

Yes, players will hunt down every last enemy, but that's OK, because that's where the treasure is: in their heads. The entire game is basically predicated on the idea that XP is a resource to be managed, just like gold and spell slots and hit points; but then they inexplicably went and made XP something only the DM was allowed to manage. What a bore! And a chore.

Under my system the players decide whether to level or buy a new magic item. Think of the last time you deducted XP from the party to give to their hirelings or followers; then consider in my world the players voluntarily squandered twice as much on their little guys. WBL becomes self-correcting; the slaughter of sentient beings becomes a necessary feature of life for everyone; kings and dukes are rightfully feared because they are powerful; feudal estates with thousands of peasants have a reason to exist and to be protected; mages will make magic items and demons will make deals because there is a universal currency; the Shadowclypse is prevented because Shadows need XP to spawn and Genie wish exploits are blocked because Genies need XP to cast wish; and more. The benefits are amazing, and players love it.

Although to be fair I had to tweak the XP curve by doubling it at every step. That means that high-levels don't chase down ordinary orcs because it's just not worth their time.

The idea sure is orignal and now I'll have to try it sooner or later, just one question: do people eat brains in order to level up? :smalleek:

[daremetoidareyo]

The idea sure is orignal and now I'll have to try it sooner or later, just one question: do people eat brains in order to level up? :smalleek:

I think we found the universe that mind flayers came from.

[ColossusCrusher]

I was interested in that idea too, Yahzi. Do people just get CR-appropriate XP for killing, or do they harvest *all* of the person's XP? If so, are there methods to harvest out all of someone's XP?

For example, a level 3 Human Warrior has 3,000 XP, but would killing them would only grant you however much you'd get for a CR 3 encounter? I also assume that this approach means you can't get XP for devising other ways around obstacles, such as by stealth or diplomacy?

[Quertus]

I never award xp for roleplaying. It's a prerequisite, it should't have to be rewarded. I know my opinion probably will be considered a bit stick-in--mud, but I don't see me changing it anytime soon, sorry about that.

Some of my games, the majority of XP come from roleplaying + problem solving + brilliance / stump the DM / general good times. Mind you, that was all party XP in 3.x (ie, not individual rewards). But I've played in plenty of games where there was no XP for RP, and I've never had any problem with that.


I tend to let the players set their own pace, if they are efficient and daring adventurers, completing various quests and overcoming many challenges they level up fast. I think it's just fair, if you work hard you level up fast, if you don't you level up slow.

I hadn't realized it until I read this: most DM's don't like it when players go straight for the adventure's jugular; you, on the other hand, seem to (want to) actively encourage this behavior.

Have you played with any players from that school of thought? The "scrye and die", the "stealth through until we find the BBE", etc? The few times I've seen people play that way, it felt more like "hardly working" than "working hard".

http://media.fakeposters.com/results/2009/07/16/gdvgo174ef.jpghttp://bestdemotivationalposters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Obstacles-Best-Demotivational-Posters.jpg

Which makes me re-think my initial support of this idea. I'm not sure how you can implement it without encouraging a play style I find... distasteful.


Quest: Descend into the sewers of "generic city" and eliminate troglodytes tha have nested there.
Level: 4th
Base XP reward: 1.100
Main Objective:

Break through the troglodyte infestation and reach the Vent Room
Destroy all 6 barricades that block the sewer vents
Find the troglodyte hatchery
Slay Matriarch Sishliss

Optional Quests:
Slay Witch Doctor Elhioc (+15% of base xp)
Slay Chief Shyrasser (+15% of base XP)

Bonus XP:

Aggression bonus: 40 or more monsters killed +5% of base xp.
Onslaught bonus: 65 or more monsters killed +10% Bonus.
Conquest bonus: 90 or more monsters killed +15% Bonus.

See, this I like. Much less hassle for the DM, bonuses for "completing the quest better". Although I'm a little confused about the quest's specific steps.

If I used something like this, unless I was writing a computer RPG, I can see me adding things like

Particularly clever ideas: +5% bonus (per instance)

Investigated how trogs came to be in the city / where they came from: +5% bonus
Tactfully harassed quest-giver for more money: +5% bonus
Scouted out area before charging in: +5% bonus
Prepared for quest in some way: new gear, clever spells, hire guide, etc: +5% bonus
Capture and interrogate trogs to gather information: +5% bonus
Infiltrate the trogs to gather information: +5% bonus
Infiltrate the trogs to become acclimated to the stench: +5% bonus
Plug their noses to be protected from the stench: +5% bonus
Become polymorphed into trogs to be protected from the stench: +5% bonus
Gave trogs option to leave (because they'd parley in Ravenloft): +5% bonus
Gave trogs option to leave (to ensure that they got rid of them all): +5% bonus
Use divination after scouring the tunnels to ensure they killed them all: +5% bonus
Realize what an amazing weapon trog stench is and...

Choose to be/stay polymorphed into trogs after the adventure: +5% bonus
Choose to hire lots of good trogs to travel with them: +5% bonus

Gave the eggs to said good trogs to raise: +5% bonus
Have a party "theme", and in some way acted in accordance with said theme: +5%-10% bonus
Came up with a solution I hadn't thought of / made one I thought impossible work: +10% bonus
Had moral qualms about killing civilians, unhatched, whatever: +5% bonus
Left things in a state where the monsters will be a problem later: -5%

Unless that was their plan all along: +10% bonus
Blatant use of OOC information: -50%
Good times had by all: +5% bonus

Even if my lists were "published" to the party (perhaps after the fact?), I'm not sure if it wouldn't still encourage "go for the adventure's jugular" behavior. Have to think about that.

[TheCrowing1432]

By all technicalities, you are granted exp by solving encounters. If an encounter is solved, but not all participants are dead, that should still grant the party exp

[Arael666]

I hadn't realized it until I read this: most DM's don't like it when players go straight for the adventure's jugular; you, on the other hand, seem to (want to) actively encourage this behavior.

Have you played with any players from that school of thought? The "scrye and die", the "stealth through until we find the BBE", etc? The few times I've seen people play that way, it felt more like "hardly working" than "working hard".

My personal style is of being objective. I'm the guy who enters the dungeons with the sole purpose of completing my misson, the second I find the McGuffin/slay the BBEG/put a wrench in the BBEG's doomsday machine's guears, I'm outta there. I like to believe that is a distinct line between "power leveling" and being objective, or as you put, going for the jugular. I also like to think that I'm clearly on the objetive side.

Thus, I may be guilty of encouraging such behavior, but I would never penalise the players if they decided to turn down the pace or wanted to fool around and explore the whole dungeon.

Finally, no I never had any group that used "scry and die" strategies.




See, this I like. Much less hassle for the DM, bonuses for "completing the quest better". Although I'm a little confused about the quest's specific steps.

If I used something like this, unless I was writing a computer RPG, I can see me adding things like

Particularly clever ideas: +5% bonus (per instance)

Investigated how trogs came to be in the city / where they came from: +5% bonus
Tactfully harassed quest-giver for more money: +5% bonus
Scouted out area before charging in: +5% bonus
Prepared for quest in some way: new gear, clever spells, hire guide, etc: +5% bonus
Capture and interrogate trogs to gather information: +5% bonus
Infiltrate the trogs to gather information: +5% bonus
Infiltrate the trogs to become acclimated to the stench: +5% bonus
Plug their noses to be protected from the stench: +5% bonus
Become polymorphed into trogs to be protected from the stench: +5% bonus
Gave trogs option to leave (because they'd parley in Ravenloft): +5% bonus
Gave trogs option to leave (to ensure that they got rid of them all): +5% bonus
Use divination after scouring the tunnels to ensure they killed them all: +5% bonus
Realize what an amazing weapon trog stench is and...

Choose to be/stay polymorphed into trogs after the adventure: +5% bonus
Choose to hire lots of good trogs to travel with them: +5% bonus

Gave the eggs to said good trogs to raise: +5% bonus
Have a party "theme", and in some way acted in accordance with said theme: +5%-10% bonus
Came up with a solution I hadn't thought of / made one I thought impossible work: +10% bonus
Had moral qualms about killing civilians, unhatched, whatever: +5% bonus
Left things in a state where the monsters will be a problem later: -5%

Unless that was their plan all along: +10% bonus
Blatant use of OOC information: -50%
Good times had by all: +5% bonus

Even if my lists were "published" to the party (perhaps after the fact?), I'm not sure if it wouldn't still encourage "go for the adventure's jugular" behavior. Have to think about that.

The example I listed was just a copy (mildly tweaked) of this quest (http://ddowiki.com/page/Freshen_the_Air). I like your example, but I probably would'nt include so many "bonuses" as I like having a "main quest" that yield the big chunk of the reward and "side quests" that can increase your awards to a certain point.

One thing is certain, you surely gave me much to think about inciting bad behavior on my players (mainly after revealing the objectives I had though out), I was so worried about the treasure being an issue that I had'nt thought of that.

[Yahzi]

For example, a level 3 Human Warrior has 3,000 XP, but would killing them would only grant you however much you'd get for a CR 3 encounter?
Exactly right. The XP is based on the level of the creature. The baseline is a 1/2 CR commoner; humanoids get that for free. Gaining levels (and thus CR) requires them to consume XP; but when you kill them, you only get a fraction of the extra XP. So as people are born die, XP flows into the world, and as they die it flows out. You need to kill about 8 equal-level creatures to level, which is roughly equivalent to four CR+4 encounters in D&D.


I also assume that this approach means you can't get XP for devising other ways around obstacles, such as by stealth or diplomacy?
Mostly true. But remember, XP is tangible: if you rob a dragon's hoard, most of the value is in XP rather than coins. In the original D&D you got XP for gold; in my version you get XP or gold, but they're both the same. So if you sneak around and score the loot without fighting, you can still gain levels.

Solving people's problems doesn't make you better at what you do; it just makes them like you. You solve problems not for cash rewards but for RP reasons: getting the Baron's daughter married off shouldn't make you a better swordsman anyway.

Skill, training, and experience are represented by attributes. Study swordsmanship for 10 years and your STR goes up. But no amount of study gets you the ability to walk away from an airplane crash: that's a supernatural power gained by enslaving other people's souls (i.e. XP).



I think we found the universe that mind flayers came from.
Obviously not! Those are protected IP. :smallbiggrin: But yes, the entire basic concept of D&D means mind-flayers are the pinnacle of creation: XP is the most valuable substance in the universe, and mind-flayers are so evolved they subsist entirely off of it. Like the gods consuming only ambrosia.

Of course the authors of D&D don't seem to understand that mind-flayers are the most perfectly evolved creatures. But then they thought full BAB was a balance for 9th lvl spells.



The idea sure is orignal and now I'll have to try it sooner or later, just one question: do people eat brains in order to level up?
Only the most savage (like monsters). Refined people use a cantrip or orison to separate the XP from the brain matter. But now you know why there's a giant freaking scorpion out there: somebody got lost in the desert and died, a regular scorpion came by and ate their brains, and the XP made it big enough that it can hunt other people's brains...

I've written up some (free) RPG guides to all of this (linked below), though I am in the process of revising them. I also wrote a novel set in this world, which has gotten pretty decent reviews. :smallsmile:

[ZamielVanWeber]

To the OP: My biggest worry with this is if people go for a long time without experience. DnD assumed a steady supply of smaller experience gains. Ignoring this causes one rules problem (easily fixed) and possibly a player one:
Rules as written only permit gaining one level at a time. If a 1st level character gains 3100 experience at 0, it would automatically send him to 2999 instead. He would need another dose of experience to bring him up to 3000.

Player wise you should talk to them first. I enjoy gaining experience as time goes by and having it reduced to once every few sessions would be extremely frustrating for me. Your players may not have the same reservations but making a change like this should involve them going in eyes open.