Best Martial Styles for ToB Classes

[Masakan]

Basically There are 9 Styles, and 3 classes. I feel that each of the classes are best suited for 3 specific styles.
Keep in mind that I am in no way saying that this is how you should do it every time, I am only stating what I feel are the best disciplines to focus on for every class.

Lets start with Crusader who is vary straight forward, all of the styles it has access to it is good at.
The Crusader is a tank despite having a lower hit die than a warblade it it has all the tools it needs to soak up damage and send it right back at them.
Devoted spirit is a style exclusive to them and has multiple tanking and supporting abilities, Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of blades are often so coveted you can literally make entire builds around them.
Stone Dragon while every martial adept can use it, is particularly useful for Crusaders further enhancing their tanking abilities, and allows them to smash any poor sap that gets in their way.
White Raven while it can go either way, imo is more useful for crusaders. Though This one still depends on how many other beatsticks are on your team, it will still give some nice solo buffs It can work for Warblades but not as well as crusaders
The recovery mechanic is alright, but much too random. And usually a DM will just let you have all 5 you can access at anytime, cause they feel its way too much ora headache to keep up with.

Warblade has 5 styles to it. IMO The best way to build a warblade is centered around either Iron heart, Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw
Diamond Mind is mainly designed for absolute focus usually having a high concentration check for everything you do, its also incredibly dodgey and nimble. Imo this style meshes well with anyone planing to gish with an arcane or psionic caster as concentration is an important aspect for both
Iron Heart I consider to be Diamond Minds sister school and focuses more on the Physical aspect while diamond mind focuses more on the Mental, Employing many spinning techniques and powerful single hit strikes.
Tiger Claw is all about outputting as much single target damage as possible as well as adding a lot of mobility ala jumping
The main reason these 3 work best with warblade, is for the simple fact that these 3 disiplines employ maneuvers that you will preferably wish to do over and over again, and Warblades recovery mechanic is perfect for that without slowing you down. Basically it's all about keeping the momentum going.

Finally Swordsages have the largest amount of styles to it caping at 6, and should focus on Desert Wind, Shadow hand and Setting Sun.
Setting sun is effectively judo, employing throwing techniques as well as debilitating strikes
Shadow hand specializes in assassination, giving you the best advantage to take your opponents out in one turn
And Desert wind is a skirmisher style focusing on hit and run tactics rather than any sort of head on conflicts.
These 3 are specific to Swordsage and generally what you wanna base your builds on, Swordsage has the single worst recovery mechanic out of the 3 meaning that you have to make every maneuver you use count, even more so if you don't have adaptive style. So I would imagine you would focus more on strikes than anything else.

[ComaVision]

The recovery mechanic is alright, but much too random. And usually a DM will just let you have all 5 you can access at anytime, cause they feel its way too much ora headache to keep up with.

That's the first I've ever heard of a DM doing that.

Also, what's the purpose of this thread? I didn't see any discussion points in your post.

[Masakan]

That's the first I've ever heard of a DM doing that.

Also, what's the purpose of this thread? I didn't see any discussion points in your post.

I wanted to ask how accurate this is, if people agree or disagree should there be any issues or if i am generally right.

[ComaVision]

I wanted to ask how accurate this is, if people agree or disagree should there be any issues or if i am generally right.

Generally, you're right. You certainly can do other things with the classes but you, more or less, nailed the archetypal play-style of each.

[Necroticplague]

I've never seen anyone houserule the Crusader mechanic recovery mechanic. The main houserule I've ever seen was readjusting their stance progression to match when they gain access to new levels of stances.

[Amphetryon]

This is the first I've ever seen anyone argue that Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw should be the go-to styles for any ToB Character, regardless of Class. I'm truly curious as to why these are considered 'best' options.

Seconding/thirding/etc. the point that I've never seen any DM houserule the Crusader recovery mechanic in the way the OP says "usually" happens.

[BowStreetRunner]

Basically There are 9 Styles, and 3 classes. I feel that each of the classes are best suited for 3 specific styles.
Keep in mind that I am in no way saying that this is how you should do it every time, I am only stating what I feel are the best disciplines to focus on for every class.
Of the 9 styles five are exclusive to a single class. Three are available to two classes. One is available to all three. When you dip into prestige classes it further complicates matters.

Bloodclaw Master grants only Tiger Claw
Deepstone Sentinel grants only Stone Dragon
Eternal Blade grants Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven
Jade Phoenix Mage grants Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit
Ruby Knight Vindicator grants Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and White Raven
Shadow Sun Ninja grants Setting Sun and Shadow Hand
Master of Nine grants all nine disciplines

I really do feel that every potential combination of styles has its own place. Where someone may perceive a certain class being best suited to specific disciplines it's more a combination of certain disciplines being available to specific classes and certain builds being more obvious than others. The Crusader only has access to 3 disciplines so this would appear to be a no-brainer. But trying to narrow the Warblade or Swordsage down to the three best is far more subjective.

The recovery mechanic is alright, but much too random. And usually a DM will just let you have all 5 you can access at anytime, cause they feel its way too much ora headache to keep up with.I've never actually known a DM who hand-waved the Crusader's recovery method away. And with printed cards it's really actually very simple to keep track.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Desert Wind is generally considered a somewhat poor style, on account of fire damage being so easily resisted. Swordsages are the only ones who can use it, obviously, but even they don't actually do so, at least not in optimization theory.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that Stone Dragon and White Raven are really better for crusaders than warblades. Both classes can be built both ways, and the commonly used bits of these styles - the Mountain Hammer line and Order Forged from Chaos/White Raven Tactics, say - are very useful regardless of class.

[BowStreetRunner]

Desert Wind is generally considered a somewhat poor style, on account of fire damage being so easily resisted. Swordsages are the only ones who can use it, obviously, but even they don't actually do so, at least not in optimization theory.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that Stone Dragon and White Raven are really better for crusaders than warblades. Both classes can be built both ways, and the commonly used bits of these styles - the Mountain Hammer line and Order Forged from Chaos/White Raven Tactics, say - are very useful regardless of class.
Besides Desert Wind's weakness, there is also the part where "Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground." (ToB page 81) So that is another discipline around which building a character can pose issues.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Stone Dragon I tend only take the highest level Mountain Hammer that I have access to and then maybe one or two others. The whole "have to be on the ground" thing is really frustrating at times.

Honestly a stack of index cards with stuff written on them is all I need to handle crusader' recovery

[Masakan]

Stone Dragon I tend only take the highest level Mountain Hammer that I have access to and then maybe one or two others. The whole "have to be on the ground" thing is really frustrating at times.

Honestly a stack of index cards with stuff written on them is all I need to handle crusader' recovery

Actually....doesn't Air walk kind of fix this issue?

[Vhaidara]

Actually....doesn't Air walk kind of fix this issue?

Doubtful, given that it requires you to be standing on the ground.

[Masakan]

Doubtful, given that it requires you to be standing on the ground.

I always interpreted it as needing to have your feet planted in some way I.E needing traction or a firm stance.

[Vhaidara]

I always interpreted it as needing to have your feet planted in some way I.E needing traction or a firm stance.

Doesn't it also say something about being reliant on a strong connection to the earth? Hence Stone Dragon?

Either way, having your feat firmly on the ground does not equal having your feat planted.

[Masakan]

Doesn't it also say something about being reliant on a strong connection to the earth? Hence Stone Dragon?

Either way, having your feat firmly on the ground does not equal having your feat planted.

you sure your not just taking it too literally?

[ZamielVanWeber]

you sure your not just taking it too literally?

The opposite: you are taking it too liberally. IIRC it actually says you must be touching ground.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, no, I'm not. I just double check the wording. The full paragraph:
Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force - the power of the earth and stone - to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can only be initiated if you are in contact with the ground.

I'm not sure how much more explicitly they could say it.

[Masakan]

Actually, no, I'm not. I just double check the wording. The full paragraph:
Unlike with other disciplines, adepts of this school rely on an external force - the power of the earth and stone - to help power their maneuvers. As a result, Stone Dragon maneuvers can only be initiated if you are in contact with the ground.

I'm not sure how much more explicitly they could say it.

well thats annoying.

[Red Fel]

well thats annoying.

Yup. It's one of several reasons that the Stone Dragon discipline is so disfavored. Another is the stances that preclude you from taking more than a five-foot step.

Really the only big draw of Stone Dragon would be the "Hulk smash" strikes. One in particular is Mountain Tombstone Strike, which has no maneuver prerequisites, only an IL one. But yeah, the stupid "in contact with the ground" clause is a big pain.

If I had to say which disciplines were really, really quite good, I'd be primarily limited to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven, and Diamond Mind. Those are my four, those are quality.

I could throw a bit of Setting Sun or Shadow Hand in there, but they're corner cases. Desert Wind is disappointing, because Fire Resistance; Stone Dragon fails for reasons already expressed; and Tiger Claw is a failed attempt to make TWF functional. So, yeah. More than half of these disciplines needn't apply.

[Masakan]

Yup. It's one of several reasons that the Stone Dragon discipline is so disfavored. Another is the stances that preclude you from taking more than a five-foot step.

Really the only big draw of Stone Dragon would be the "Hulk smash" strikes. One in particular is Mountain Tombstone Strike, which has no maneuver prerequisites, only an IL one. But yeah, the stupid "in contact with the ground" clause is a big pain.

If I had to say which disciplines were really, really quite good, I'd be primarily limited to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven, and Diamond Mind. Those are my four, those are quality.

I could throw a bit of Setting Sun or Shadow Hand in there, but they're corner cases. Desert Wind is disappointing, because Fire Resistance; Stone Dragon fails for reasons already expressed; and Tiger Claw is a failed attempt to make TWF functional. So, yeah. More than half of these disciplines needn't apply.

I disagree, I would argue that tiger claw makes TWF at least feasible.

[Red Fel]

I disagree, I would argue that tiger claw makes TWF at least feasible.

Hmm... Perhaps. There are ways that it adds a bit.

It just doesn't wow, you know? It's not amazing or different.

White Raven lets you provide all sorts of neat party buffs and bonuses, or shut down enemy AoOs, for a very tactical feel. Diamond Mind allows you to substitute a skill check for all sorts of cool things. Iron Heart Surge. Devoted Spirit turns your melee attacks into a source of off-healing. Heck, even Desert Wind gives you bonus sources of fire damage. They add something new.

Tiger Claw... Like you said. It makes TWF at least feasible. It doesn't really add a lot. It makes you better at something you could already do. There were TWF builds before Tiger Claw. There were critfisher builds before Tiger Claw. It doesn't give you new tools, just shinier versions of the ones you already had. That's my beef with it, I suppose.

[Masakan]

Hmm... Perhaps. There are ways that it adds a bit.

It just doesn't wow, you know? It's not amazing or different.

White Raven lets you provide all sorts of neat party buffs and bonuses, or shut down enemy AoOs, for a very tactical feel. Diamond Mind allows you to substitute a skill check for all sorts of cool things. Iron Heart Surge. Devoted Spirit turns your melee attacks into a source of off-healing. Heck, even Desert Wind gives you bonus sources of fire damage. They add something new.

Tiger Claw... Like you said. It makes TWF at least feasible. It doesn't really add a lot. It makes you better at something you could already do. There were TWF builds before Tiger Claw. There were critfisher builds before Tiger Claw. It doesn't give you new tools, just shinier versions of the ones you already had. That's my beef with it, I suppose.

So it's less bad and more it's nothing spectacular. I'm feeling you but even so, sure it's not flashy but it's practical. Making TWF so much less of a headache to integrate into builds, and between Sudden Leap and Leaping Dragon Stance, it gives TWF i always felt it sorely needs. Mobility

[BowStreetRunner]

I've always found Tiger Claw to be a really fun discipline for Thri-Kreen characters. TWF and Jump craziness! :smallbiggrin:

[Theodred theOld]

This thread should be renamed Best Martial Styles for NON-ToB Classes. I'll go first. Every rogue should be intimately familiar with the shadow hand school. Amazing doesn't begin to desribe what a well built rogue can do with a quick dip in the swordsage/warblade pool. +2d6 SA, 50ft. move action teleport, invisibility, spider climb and a whole pile of "makes flat-footed" techniques and that's without even looking in the book. Did I mention that the teleportation is virtually unlimited outside of combat and I believe you can take a friend with you. Like I said, amazing.

[OldTrees1]

This thread should be renamed Best Martial Styles for NON-ToB Classes. I'll go first. Every rogue should be intimately familiar with the shadow hand school. Amazing doesn't begin to desribe what a well built rogue can do with a quick dip in the swordsage/warblade pool. +2d6 SA, 50ft. move action teleport, invisibility, spider climb and a whole pile of "makes flat-footed" techniques and that's without even looking in the book. Did I mention that the teleportation is virtually unlimited outside of combat and I believe you can take a friend with you. Like I said, amazing.

Even Non-ToB classes don't really favor a specific discipline. Fighters / Martial Rogues favor Emerald Razor, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Stride, Mountain Hammer, Sudden Leap, and White Raven Tactics (all easily reached with Swordsage 1 at 5th and Warblade 1 at 9th).

[Kelb_Panthera]

This thread should be renamed Best Martial Styles for NON-ToB Classes. I'll go first. Every rogue should be intimately familiar with the shadow hand school. Amazing doesn't begin to desribe what a well built rogue can do with a quick dip in the swordsage/warblade pool. +2d6 SA, 50ft. move action teleport, invisibility, spider climb and a whole pile of "makes flat-footed" techniques and that's without even looking in the book. Did I mention that the teleportation is virtually unlimited outside of combat and I believe you can take a friend with you. Like I said, amazing.

Shadow hand is only available to swordsages. A warblade gets diamond mind, iron heart, stone dragon, tigerclaw, and white raven. Tiger claw doesn't suck if you've got a source of bonus damage (lots of extra attacks) and everybody likes swift movement (sudden leap).

[Theodred theOld]

Shadow hand is only available to swordsages. A warblade gets diamond mind, iron heart, stone dragon, tigerclaw, and white raven. Tiger claw doesn't suck if you've got a source of bonus damage (lots of extra attacks) and everybody likes swift movement (sudden leap).
Like I said, didn't have time to check the book. Obviously a rogue could still get some mileage from diamond mind or white raven but I feel that shadow hand stands out as an almost must have any serious rogue.