Tier question restated with an emphasis on in-game experience

[Shining Wrath]

The 3.5 definition of tiers, as JasonK originally elaborated them, was based on the incompatibility of certain classes in play; at high level a Fighter was unlikely to be contributing as much, in combat or out, as a Wizard.

I'd like to have a Tier discussion based not on theory, but on your actual in-game experience. The 3 pillars of D&D are combat, social, and exploration.

Tell me (us) about campaigns (NOT SINGLE ENCOUNTERS) where for an extended period of time ...


One character was doing the 3.5 Tier 1 thing: everyone else was clearly contributing less, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time, OR
One character was just not pulling their weight, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time


Please indicate what level(s) you were at, and the composition of the rest of the party.

[CNagy]

I'd be surprised if anyone could credibly name a character that either consistently dominated every aspect of the game or was a consistent drag on the party. One of the very best things about 5e is that, in my experience, any 4 characters can make a party that is good to go--your tactics change depending on who is present but your viability as a party is never really in question.

No class has ever wrecked my game or stolen the spotlight completely. No one has been the dead weight. The only problems I've had are with specific builds that don't play well with others--primarily those using some combination of Darkness and Devil's Sight. We get it, you can be Batman anywhere, but 15' radius is friggin huge, the Rogue can't get sneak attack even if the advantage cancels out the disadvantage, and no one has fun RPing about how their character can't see in this inky darkness and is reduced to flailing at where he thinks the enemies are. Situationally, it is an awesome combo. Throwing up a Darkness and acting as a rear guard when an escape is needed is wonderful. But using it as the way that you fight, every fight? Ruined the game for everyone else.

I know that's not what this thread is about, technically, but like I said I doubt anyone will have much of an example one way or the other.

[Cybren]

I agree that the tier concept of some classes just not being able to contribute does not fit with 5E. There's power level differences, but the only people that really care are optomizers that live in a mostly fictitious environment

[treecko]

I can share my experiences with a light cleric (in levels 1-6):

Combat: Amazing. The light cleric can put out big numbers for damage with their domain spell lists, as well as keep the party going with bless and healing word. A mace and shield make for good at will damage, with a high AC to keep concentration and preserve hit points, Overall well rounded and a huge assist to the party, able to do pretty much anything. Never really felt overbearing, just consistently good and able to have answers for most situations.

Social: This is sort of cleric dependent, on what kind of god you follow. For me, I worshiped Pelor and that got me some favors with local temples, and the trust of most people. The main social draw of a (good aligned) cleric is the trust you get from being a servant of a trusted god. The main high charisma party faces did most of the talking, but having a cleric of Pelor handy was useful in many cases.

Exploration: Not super athletic or sneaky, the only thing I could really do in this aspect was to cast silence or something. Other than that I was a walking torch and first aid kit.

Overall, I rate pretty good, not really sure how 3.5 tiers work but I think tier 2 is reasonable, for being well rounded and strong but weak in one area. Honestly, the classes are close enough together.

[Shining Wrath]

I can share my experiences with a light cleric (in levels 1-6):

Combat: Amazing. The light cleric can put out big numbers for damage with their domain spell lists, as well as keep the party going with bless and healing word. A mace and shield make for good at will damage, with a high AC to keep concentration and preserve hit points, Overall well rounded and a huge assist to the party, able to do pretty much anything. Never really felt overbearing, just consistently good and able to have answers for most situations.

Social: This is sort of cleric dependent, on what kind of god you follow. For me, I worshiped Pelor and that got me some favors with local temples, and the trust of most people. The main social draw of a (good aligned) cleric is the trust you get from being a servant of a trusted god. The main high charisma party faces did most of the talking, but having a cleric of Pelor handy was useful in many cases.

Exploration: Not super athletic or sneaky, the only thing I could really do in this aspect was to cast silence or something. Other than that I was a walking torch and first aid kit.

Overall, I rate pretty good, not really sure how 3.5 tiers work but I think tier 2 is reasonable, for being well rounded and strong but weak in one area. Honestly, the classes are close enough together.

OK, so you're telling me the Light Cleric is ACC - great combat, some occasional utility for the other two. That's a solid Tier 3 in JasonK's ratings.

[Shining Wrath]

I agree that the tier concept of some classes just not being able to contribute does not fit with 5E. There's power level differences, but the only people that really care are optomizers that live in a mostly fictitious environment

That's why I phrased it like I did; I'm looking for something not in the realm of theory, where we can throw hypothetical situations around all day, but actual games with actual DMs.

I'm currently running a Hunter Ranger as a DMPC (level 4), and she's probably the best damage dealer in the party (A for combat), has good contributions with Survival and Natural Explorer in Exploration (grade B), and is terrible at social interactions ON PURPOSE - as a DMPC, I don't want to spend much time talking to myself, so grade D which was my plan all along. Grade ADB, definitely not boring or a waste of time.


I'd be surprised if anyone could credibly name a character that either consistently dominated every aspect of the game or was a consistent drag on the party. One of the very best things about 5e is that, in my experience, any 4 characters can make a party that is good to go--your tactics change depending on who is present but your viability as a party is never really in question.

No class has ever wrecked my game or stolen the spotlight completely. No one has been the dead weight. The only problems I've had are with specific builds that don't play well with others--primarily those using some combination of Darkness and Devil's Sight. We get it, you can be Batman anywhere, but 15' radius is friggin huge, the Rogue can't get sneak attack even if the advantage cancels out the disadvantage, and no one has fun RPing about how their character can't see in this inky darkness and is reduced to flailing at where he thinks the enemies are. Situationally, it is an awesome combo. Throwing up a Darkness and acting as a rear guard when an escape is needed is wonderful. But using it as the way that you fight, every fight? Ruined the game for everyone else.

I know that's not what this thread is about, technically, but like I said I doubt anyone will have much of an example one way or the other.

It's possible for anyone to play a "Me Me Me" game - like Intimidating people you're going to need later, or Charming them, or stealing from them. Throwing Darkness on every combat is not quite as selfish but it's not nice. It's a team game and those who don't want to be part of a team can cause problems.

[Seruvius]

Wood Elf Open Hand Monk levels 1-7

Combat: Great against hordes of weak enemies at low levels thanks to flurry of blows. Was played in a city campaign so there was great comedic value in kicking enemies of roofs as well. Once stunning fist came online he was pretty good at tanking single nasty's as well. Add in the high manoeuvrability and ability to ignore x falling damage in a quite vertical campaign (rooftops, hallways, chandeliers etc.) and combat is pretty awesome.

Social: I got some social use out of the background, but in general outside of being the reliable neutral expert, this was the biggest weakness of the 3 pillars for the monk. Dumpstat Charisma didn't exactly help that :smalltongue:

Exploration: High maneuverability, High dex, proficiency in stealth and High perception from proficiency+high wisdom makes for a very effective scout. If messages need to be delivered, the monk was the one to do it, the added 5 foot speed from wood elf was just the icing on the cake. Again quite strong at traversing a lot of ground unseen and seeing others, though without any magical means of informing ones allies, you do need to get back to them in one piece first to relay the info, which can be a problem in its own right :smallbiggrin:


Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard Levels 1-2 (in progress)

Combat: amazingly tanky with decent AC and HP thanks to medium armour prof and temporary ward HP. I've gone for a Treantmonk style battlefield control no blasty wizard and so far it is working quite well. 2 of the other 4 party members are based around hitting hard (Half-Orc barbarian and Variant Human Witch hunter(Homebrew: http://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Witch-Hunter-Class-FINAL-4.2.pdf), so being able to pick fights and focus enemies is already great.

Social: Lots of Int based Knowledge skills, but outside of knowing things my wizard at least is a classical gruff dwarf (rolled stats and that 7 had to go somewhere).

Exploration: Rituals are superb for utility. Detect magic for suspicious areas, Alarm for rests, owl familiar for scouting. In general, pretty useful without having to spend spell slots but taking a bit more time.

Overall, evena t low levels, the wizard is definitely pulling her weight

[ad_hoc]

Levels 1-7. Party composition varied but always had the 3 characters below. Usually a 4 person party.

Note that no characters are outshine others and all characters pulled weight, so skip this response if you like. Just giving perspective on what I think is typical play in 5e.

Hunter Ranger
Combat - A - Consistent damage dealer - Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark doing work
Exploration - A - Natural Explorer and Pass Without Trace shine here
Social - D - Only thing they had was a high Wisdom for insight checks

Life Cleric
Combat - B - Good support character. Healing and Guiding Bolt doing a lot of work. Turn Undead did some good work too.
Exploration - B - Light and Dispel Magic did work here
Social - D - Same as Ranger

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Combat - A - Big damage dealer - A summoned Unicorn saved the day once as well
Exploration - D - Not much here
Social - A - High Charisma, advantage, and +1d4 on Charisma checks is pretty good. Disguise Self too

[Shining Wrath]

Levels 1-7. Party composition varied but always had the 3 characters below. Usually a 4 person party.

Note that no characters are outshine others and all characters pulled weight, so skip this response if you like. Just giving perspective on what I think is typical play in 5e.

Hunter Ranger
Combat - A - Consistent damage dealer - Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark doing work
Exploration - A - Natural Explorer and Pass Without Trace shine here
Social - D - Only thing they had was a high Wisdom for insight checks

Life Cleric
Combat - B - Good support character. Healing and Guiding Bolt doing a lot of work. Turn Undead did some good work too.
Exploration - B - Light and Dispel Magic did work here
Social - D - Same as Ranger

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Combat - A - Big damage dealer - A summoned Unicorn saved the day once as well
Exploration - D - Not much here
Social - A - High Charisma, advantage, and +1d4 on Charisma checks is pretty good. Disguise Self too

Considering the hate for WM Sorcerer on some fora, this is a good rating for a supposedly weak class.

[ad_hoc]

Considering the hate for WM Sorcerer on some fora, this is a good rating for a supposedly weak class.

Advantage whenever you want it, recharging when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher/have a long rest is huge. Saving Throws are obviously important but you can also apply it to your deception check or your initiative to get that important first action in combat.

+/- d4 after seeing the result of a roll is huge too. You can help to pass or fail a saving throw, etc. (I made an error too, it's not +d4 on Charisma checks, rather -d4 on opposing them, same difference though)

The wild magic surge is more for flavour than anything else. It is Tides of Chaos that is the key to the class. Still, on the whole it is going to be far more beneficial than hurtful over the course of a campaign.

There is that ever present 1 in 50 risk of hitting the Fireball that has people worried. I think it would be better if it were scaled to the Sorcerer's level, but it is still only likely to happy maybe once a campaign.

[recapdrake]

My report for level 1-6 on a light cleric(5)paladin(1).

Combat: My build is specifically made to be able to perform above average or average at each of the three sub-pillars of combat (martial dpr, healing, casting) the build is obliterating at that and is only being outstripped by the monk and that's because the DM house ruled tavern brawl feat to stack with normal monk die progression.

Social: THAUMATURGY IS FIGURATIVELY AND LITERALLY A GOD SEND. I have soldier background meaning that I have intimidation proficiency and couple that with thaumaturgy+continual flame giving me access to literally going super saiyan as far as anyone that can see me is concerned and my social skills are doing fine, though still not so much that I'm the party face but still quite a great deal.

Exploration: Heavy armor is a thing. Guidance and bless are what I use for the purpose of stealth and while it can make me sometimes passable, it definitely doesn't make me better than the monk, or the ranger (who I think died in a session I didn't make it to because the player looked ahead at the level progression and realised that beast master was going to not be nearly as fun to play as he thought it was going to be)

Overall I don't see cleric dipping paladin to be anywhere near the tier 1's of old.

EDIT: Combat: S/A+, if it weren't for a monk that is way way stronger than he should be at this level I would be in complete control of combat, especially once I level up paladin some more and grab even more combat abilities from that.
Social: B- again not the best at it but in a pinch it has come through.
Exploration: C-/D+ for the above stated reasons

[Theodoxus]

Campaign - RHoD, started at 5, currently 8.
Characters:
Fighter 1/Warlock 7: Combat - One trick, but a really good trick. Took spellsniper, so his EB can almost go around corners ;) 240' repelling blasts means he sits at the edge of battle and snipes all the things. Only hampered by night (our last two battles were at night, so he had to get within 60', and ended up running as he drew too much aggro too quickly - but Fly means he didn't GAF.
Exploration: Flight provides the emphasis of exploration. D-door provides some emergency evac, but in general, warlock is pretty nifty for exploration. He isn't strong, so while he can wear heavy armor, he prefers medium for the movement speed. He wears lower tier medium so sneak isn't hampered. Due to this, he can scout better than most of the rest of the team.
Social: He's the face. The player is typically team lead anyway, and the social skills granted by warlock and his background, on top of maximizing Cha has him in command of the social skills. If the character wasn't a total chicken when it comes to "not the face!" encounters, he'd be outclassing the rest of us. (To the point that the Bard picked up Spellsniper and chose EB as the cantrip, just to be nearly as "cool".)

Bard 8: Combat: Party buffer, and artilery support. He picked up fireball at 6th and hasn't looked back. He's also primary healer, but that doesn't come up too much given the way healing works in 5th Ed. Outside of popping corn, he debuffs with Mockery and recently (at 8th) started sniping alongside the Warlock.
Exploration: Lacking flight, the bard sticks to D-door for getting overland. Lacking heavy armor, he can sneak around, but tends to take a back role to scouting, preferring to let others do that, and instead help the team set up ambushes.
Social: Like the warlock, he has a lot of social skills. Unlike the warlock, the player is less socially inclined. He rolls backup and will cover gaffs made by poor rolls, but in general keeps quiet. He was inclined to play a Bard based on forum advice about how strong the class is - he hasn't found a hook for the character, which keeps him from having fun - the player really needs to have a solid concept to have fun, and "the bard" just isn't doing it for him.

Barbarian 8: Combat: GWM+PAM Frenzy Berserking Half-Orc. Crazy redundancy with his abilities (and I'd reroll as totem in a heartbeat if I could - it was an experiment I was checking to see Berserker's viability). Crits are amazing, currently doing 3d10+16 on a crit, and next level it'll boost to 4d10+16. Reckless Attack negates nearly all the penalty imposed by GWM, and I turned the tide when the warlock D-doored out of a fight (though the bard Polymorphing me into a ape once I did finally go down really won the fight in the end). For combat, it's the most fun I've ever had as a player. But it's probably too strong. Definitely outshines the Paladin, Bard, Wizard and Warlock for combat.
Exploration: Survival and Stealth allow for uninterrupted exploration without incurring much loss. However, slow land travel and lack of vision from height limits him.
Social: With an 8 Charisma, this idea is laughable. Intimidate is the only social skill he has, and even that is only +2, and only because it was free. I'd rank Barbarian in general very low on the social scale - outside of "hulk smash" overuse, a social barbi would be very niche indeed.

Paladin 8: Combat: Spear+B paladin, the player isn't worried about optimization, instead playing for a particular look. She's a vengeance pally and tends to forget about her special abilities. Currently, she's a Saving Throw font (+5 to my meager will saves has helped a couple times when Held) and HP battery with lay on hands. She hasn't turned the tide, but is a solid Anvil on which to Hammer the enemy against.
Exploration: Much like the barbarian, but without the survival or stealth - her biggest contribution is her magical warhorse. She has the best land speed due to it. On her own, she'd be well equipped to travel anywhere. With the party, she's hampered by our lack of horses (they got killed in a swamp to a hydra).
Social: Another Cha character, another solid social package. Needless to say, our party is not light on faces. Another case in player being less charismatic than their character...

Wizard 8: Combat: I don't know what flavor of wizard he is, though pretty sure not an evoker. He's cast a few spells in combat, most memorably Lightning Bolt in concert with the bard's fireball - but all in all, hasn't contributed too much in the combat arena. Again, I think this is more of a player problem (brand new to 5th Ed) and less a class problem.
Exploration: Best explorer of all of us, primarily because of the skills he's emphasized, so he knows where to go ;) But magic definitely helps in that regard as well.
Social: Probably tied with the barbarian for social skills - although he's a half-elf, so he'll have at least a 10 Cha, so I guess better. But given the three face classes, he wisely opted to pick Int skills over Cha, so hangs back in social interaction, other than to offer up knowledge.

Other classes...
We had two other characters in the game. The paladin player originally had a Monk, but dropped her for the paladin when we hit 6th level. The monk was elemental...
Combat: Surprisingly good. Better than the paladin that replaced her. Fire whips turned the tide of battle against trolls and some hobgoblins. For whatever reason, the player understood the Ki system better than she groks spells and smites... she abandoned the monk for more healing and the ability to wear shiny plate...
Exploration: Speed and stealth were her main things when it came to exploration. She was our scout, though she didn't relish it (yet another reason she changed characters).
Social: Not much. Lack of Cha for Face skills, lack of Int for knowledges, it actually fit the player better.

Cleric 4/Rogue 3 - A Knowledge Cleric / AT rogue... built for exploration and dungeon delving. Didn't play well in the railroad campaign that Red Hand of Doom is. Amazing character I want to get to explore more with, but for a different campaign and different DM.
Combat: Decent. Sneak attack when in melee, casting Sacred Flame against low dex opponents, the options were varied enough between range and melee that it was fun. Would probably go with a hand crossbow in the next iteration, but I've learned a lot since then.
Exploration: Amazing. Not a lot of magical support at the level he was, but Expertise on Stealth and proficient in Survival, as well as Expertise in Arcane and History allowed him to be capable of doing what he was built for: dungeon delving. Finding ancient ruins and getting into the delicious nooks and crannies.
Social: I didn't grab any social skills, but being a cleric opened a lot of doors. Of the characters in the game, he was only topped by the warlock in overall efficiency and well-roundedness. The warlock is definitely better equipped for the type of game the campaign is suited for.

[CNagy]

I actually hadn't considered this character due to a lack of magic, but he's been a solid party addition basically from the start to level 6 (current).

Half-Elf Noble (Knight variant) Swashbuckler. He's a strength-based Rogue; spent the first 3 levels playing a more traditional Rogue in combat, stick and move. At 4th level, he took Moderately Armored feat and started using a breastplate and shield; AC jumped from 14 to 18 and he mostly sticks to the front line now. Damage-wise he does really well.

On the social side of things, he's got 8 skills, and half of them are social. Persuasion, Insight, Investigation, Sleight of Hand; he's got expertise in Persuasion to better utilize the Swashbucker's 9th level ability in the future. Other party members have skills he doesn't have, so he isn't the sole Face.

On the exploration side, he's got Stealth, Perception, and Acrobatics with expertise. And History, which is a bit harder to place. Half-Elf darkvision also helps here.

The thing is that he is good everywhere but not overwhelming. He probably has the most potential in the Social pillar, especially in later levels when he can charm non-hostiles with an opposed Persuasion check. But his damage is going to keep going up, too.

[Vogonjeltz]

The 3.5 definition of tiers, as JasonK originally elaborated them, was based on the incompatibility of certain classes in play; at high level a Fighter was unlikely to be contributing as much, in combat or out, as a Wizard.

I'd like to have a Tier discussion based not on theory, but on your actual in-game experience. The 3 pillars of D&D are combat, social, and exploration.

Tell me (us) about campaigns (NOT SINGLE ENCOUNTERS) where for an extended period of time ...

1.One character was doing the 3.5 Tier 1 thing: everyone else was clearly contributing less, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time, OR
2.One character was just not pulling their weight, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time


Please indicate what level(s) you were at, and the composition of the rest of the party.

Ok, one campaign has been Levels 1-6 custom setting. Barbarian/Bard->Lore Bard, Illusionist, Battlemaster, Thief->The Fiend Pact of the Chain Warlock

The arrows indicate swapped characters.

They are all pretty useful in most every situation, although I think the Thief was not used effectively in combat. Which is not to say they couldn't be effective, just that I think they weren't being used to maximum effect.

Combat:
Battlemaster has been far and away the most effective.
Barbarian/Bard was stylish and effective 1 v 1 (maximized grappling) and using Thunderwave to good effect.
Illusionist didn't really contribute for the first few combats, then started focusing on necromancy and was able to drop some enemies. Still not great on damage comparatively, probably because they are forced to spend a round throwing up a defense, and do basically nothing.
Thief, I don't think made a single meaningful contribution in combat. Probably bad tactics.
Warlock has been pretty useful in combat thanks to the crowd control of Repelling Blast.

Social:
It depends on who we're talking to, this seems to be less a function of class and more of background. I think the Bard's encouraged to ham it up with expertise in performance, and the Illusionist can supplement some things with illusions, but in both cases they're just methods of flavoring what they were going to say/do anyway.

Exploration:
This party basically blunders into everything because they're all extremely unwise characters who are played as such. Nobody has been either particularly useful or useless though, but this is also probably a function of skill selection (given that we don't have a Ranger in this one). The Battlemaster has survival proficiency and has been able to contribute through clever use of that.

[busterswd]

Moon Druid (+Fighter, Monk, Rogue, last 0-2 varied):

Level 1: Ranged attacker that was the primary source of healing via goodberries. Bow/cantrip spam with some Druidcraft RPing. Entangle/Fairy Fire were nice, when the spell slots were available. Not particularly exciting.

Level 2-4: Wildshape dominance; completely outclassed other classes in terms of survivability and damage. Was still the primary source of healing, so couldn't burn spells without thinking carefully. Additionally, because some encounters were spread out, barkskin/wildshape use was a little limited because of duration. This was actually a common theme in future levels as well: more short rests make the druid several times stronger. If you're on a marathon type mission or in hostile territory, you need to conserve that last wildshape, just in case, or you revert back to plinking people with a bow/cantrips. Spells at these levels are great utility (pass without trace singlehandedly got us through several tricky spots, even with a heavy armor penalty) but not as useful in combat, especially because they were fighting with Barkskin for slots and concentration (being a melee fighter without a good con save isn't good for concentration checks). We were playing theater of the mind, so zone spells weren't quite as useful.

Level 5-9: Spellcasting really came into fruition. Conjure Animals alone could tip encounters pretty badly (summoning a flock of fliers also allowed for out of combat shenanigans as well). I didn't abuse Conjure Woodland Beings, but Polymorph alone ended some encounters pretty prematurely. Spellcasting in this party was limited, so also had to have dispel magic and such prepared, which limited spell choice.

Spellcasting doesn't play nice with Wildshape, and short rests weren't as important for the other players anymore. While Giant Constrictor snake could be a good force multiplier, and it was always nice to be able to shift into a wall of HP, Wildshape just wasn't as relevant for these levels; most of the time, I'd use a shift if things looked dicey, and sit on another one just in case the crap hit the fan for future fights. Because of my spells, I didn't miss it that badly, but it changed my role from being a utility frontliner to being a caster hybrid. I could do a little bit of everything, but I was first and foremost a caster. I almost never used the option to burn spell slots as healing while shifted, because the spell list was just that useful.


Combat @1: B-
@2-4: A+ (S with short rest abuse)
@5-9: A- (You never feel useless in combat. A Wizard will give you a case of spell envy, but your list is more than robust enough to do what you need to do.)

Social: D+ (I tanked my social skills, but was still good at picking up information thanks to a solid insight/perception. Having an unwashed druid poke you and "whisper" HE'S LYING does have social drawbacks, though.

Exploration: A. Spell list is amazing for out of combat utility. Pass Without Trace alone would make a class have a B-. Conjure Woodland Beings can let you shift your entire party into a flying/sneaky form for exploration. Bears get advantage on smelling perception. Perception is based off our primary stat. Survival was nice for tracking things. Surprisingly, I didn't use Wildshape as much for exploration, though Giant Spider got us out of a couple of really bad situations.

[AvatarVecna]

I've been playing in a low-level group for a few months now; we're reaching 5th level right about now, and more than a few characters died during the early levels due to bad luck and/or bad decisions. We have 7-8 players (8th shows up occasionally though), and we rotate DMs in a sort of "guild adventure of the week" campaign. The characters that have been members of the group (and my observations of their general capabilities), are presented below; power, versatility, and endurance are noted on a 1-10 scale, with 10 being high.

I will also note that 3 of these characters have an additional Versatility rating that is 2 points higher than normal; these characters are wizards, two of whom have been adventuring together for quite some time. They often share spellbooks and spells, giving them lots more options individually.

NE Gnome Wizard 5 (Illusionist)

Power: 5
Versatility: 7 (9*)
Endurance: 4

This character spends most of his time hiding in the back under his Elven Cloak (or whatever the super-stealth cloak is called). Primarily, he delivers spells through his familiar, which he combines with the illusion cantrip (that can move because he's an illusionist, IIRC); the end result is a pair of spiders skittering towards you, leaping at you, and you get Shocking Grasp'd, and you can't figure out which spider is responsible, having no idea that there's a gnome nearby laughing his ass off under his breath. Other than this, he spends a decent amount of time doing battlefield control/blasting with non-illusion spells, and is usually very competent in both his spell selection and application. He's the only (officially) evil member of the party, but he's a very reserved, self-interested, "wizard seeking power without being a **** or a crazy person" NE, so he's cool, especially since the LG Cleric keeps saving his ass.

His spells aren't exactly top-tier, high-op choices, but they're relatively decent, and not terrible. He's got some good combos, but those are more a function of his versatility than his power. As can be an issue with casters, he often finds he's running out of limited-use abilities and has to resort to his Shocking Grasp double-spider trick; a useful trick, to be sure, but hardly incredible in terms of the final effect.

LG Dwarf Cleric 5 (War)

Power: 7
Versatility: 5
Endurance: 5

With Str 18, Con 18, and heavy armor/shield proficiency, this character is our group's tank, and forms the backbone of the party. Focuses mostly on combat spells, with a good split between buffs, attacks, and healing, but outside of combat, she takes a backseat. Nevertheless, between her variably useful spells, and her ability to switch from hammer and shield to big hammer on the fly, she's got a lot of options in-combat. After she's out of spells (usually from healing people), she's limited to her hammer; not a bad fall-back plan, but not superb either.

C"N" "Human" Druid 5 (Moon)

Power: 8
Versatility: 3
Endurance: 7

This character spends most of her time in dire wolf form, and if she could speak in that form we'd all be dead three times over from causing fatal diplomatic incidents (wanting to eat a Gnome Lord in the middle of Zilargo, wanting to eat a Pirate Lord while surrounded by his crew, and wanting to challenge an Adult White Dragon in its lair, respectively). Nevertheless, her power (up until recently) has been top-notch, and she almost always has spells left over to heal her own wounds, so she doesn't personally drain party resources. And of course, when she actually uses spells for their intended purpose, they're actually pretty optimal choices, and well-used. It would be lovely if the characterization wasn't "feral animal became a druid, but still has a beast mind mostly", which makes her very difficult to work with even at the best of times. Her answer to any problem, even when she knows and has prepared a spell that can solve the issue efficiently, is "kill it and eat it"...no matter how applicable a solution that is. It's worth mentioning that her Dire Wolf form is starting to not cut it for combat: she's just taking too much damage and getting forced out of Wild Shape. I both fear and hope that we're reaching the point where her character's schtick is going to become to unoptimal to consider...or she'll stubbornly persist and get herself killed.

N Dwarf Wizard 5 (Artificer)

Power: 6
Versatility: 6 (8*)
Endurance: 3

This character replaced a dead one from the previous game, so I haven't seen too much of them. Nevertheless, reviewing their character sheet and their combat tactics has indicated the above ratings are appropriate: they have good, but not amazing, spell selection in terms of power and versatility, but they have a bit of a problem with hanging onto them.

CG Kalashtar Wizard 5 (Transmuter)

Power: 6
Versatility: 7 (9*)
Endurance: 6

This characters some excellent spell selection, with a good mix of BFC, buffing, and utility spells; combined with the other wizard's focus on blasting and illusions, they were pretty well-covered even before the third wizard came into the picture. He's also very careful about spending his spell slots, preferring to use cantrips creatively than to blow a larger spell when it's a bit much for the situation at hand. Nonetheless, he can still nova with the best of them, and he's even a decent social face character.

LN Warforged Scout Fighter 4/Rogue 1 (Battlemaster)

Power: 6
Versatility: 3
Endurance: 8

Small size, dual-hand-crossbows, battlemaster dice, sneak attack, Expertise: Perception and Stealth. This is my character; currently, he is the only non-caster in a group with a Moon Druid and a wizard coven...and he holds his own, consistently. His AC isn't the greatest, but it's great; he's got good HP, he's a top-notch scout, and his consistent DPR is some of the best in the party, although his ability to nova is a bit limited. His versatility is his big issue, though. He has two things he can do well: sneak around, and shoot people in the face. If neither of these skill sets is applicable, he is still plenty strong and tough, but a face and/or textbook he is not.

CN Tiefling Bard 3 (Lore)

Power: 3
Versatility: 7
Endurance: 5

My old character, before he died. Was essentially Tiefling Indiana Jones; a legitimate archaeologist in an Xen'drik, he was primarily a support character with decent healing, textbook skills, and buffs. He very rarely made an attack roll himself, preferring to help out others, since he kind of sucked at combat personally. He was great outside of it, though...a bad save resulted in a lot of damage, resulting in his death.

CN Human Rogue 3 (Assassin)

Power: 6
Versatility: 5
Endurance: 7

Hooker rogue, who is also a top-notch assassin. IRL game, so female player, but still...anyway, top-notch social rogue, excellent in and out of combat. Unfortunately, was also very much a classic glass cannon, and died in the same cave-in that claimed the bard.

CN Gnome Rogue 2/Bard 3 (Lore)

Power: 4
Versatility: 7
Endurance: 5

This was the previous character of the gnome wizard up at the top; he died deciding to jump on the back of a drow's out-of-control scorpion mount, and got stung for not being the scorpion whisperer. The character was a bit of a mess mechanically speaking, but he was a fantastic social manipulator before he died doing something stupid and totally in-character.

CN Human Barbarian (Frenzy)

Power: 7
Versatility: 1
Endurance: 9

I am convinced this character was suicidal, from his frequent decisions to do something no sane man would do. Top-notch DPR guy, and super-tough, but it was almost a relief when his character finally died after getting ambushed by troglodytes who had heard him using his forehead as a battering ram.

Overall thoughts on class tiers? Uh...

Casters are more versatile than non-casters, but they have limited resources to use, so they can't be ready for everything. Similarly, while they can still nova, their power isn't so much higher than non-casters that they render non-casters useless, because a nova usually isn't enough on its own (or even in groups) to auto-win the encounter.

Martials are much more versatile and powerful compared to 3.5; they're relevant into the lower-middle levels, and their at-will DPR/skills are their big draw. IMO, 5e doesn't need a tier system because a Champion Fighter 6 and a Moon Druid 6 are both incredible combatants, and determining who's technically better isn't really relevant because they both fall in the range of "pretty freaking good", and kill enemies of equal CR and equal HP in roughly equal time.

[PotatoGolem]

3-player game, levels 1-7

OOtA Paladin (Noble) VH (Ritual Caster:Wizard), GWM

Combat: A. He's a paladin. Sustained damage is OK, but can nova like a champ. Was more of a A-/B+ until the auras kicked in, but now he's amazing. We don't need to worry about spellcasters much, and evokers are just speed bumps. Great healing as well. Damage: B+; Tanking: A

Social: A. High cha, focus on social skills, party face, Noble feature. Self explanatory. Better with enhance ability from the cleric. Has been able to Captain Kirk his way through many encounters that would otherwise have ended poorly. Some good knowledge skills.

Exploration: B+. Not at all stealthy with his heavy armor and Dex penalty, but Ritual Caster is amazing and lets him solve a lot of problems. Free horse is nice too. Would be a solid D without the feat.


Knowledge Cleric (Acolyte) VH (magic initiate:druid, I believe)

Combat: B+. Not much damage, but good buffs and debuffs. Once we hit level 7, Banishment came online and has been amazing.

Social: A+. Not much of a people person, but the whole "psychic detective"/mindreader shtick is very strong. Combos exceptionally well with the paladin. Great knowledge skills.

Exploration: A: As with the paladin, not super stealthy but great rituals. Some great situational spells as well like Lesser Restoration and Create Food and Water. Lots of magic spying as we level up.


AT Rogue (Criminal) VH (crossbow expert), sharpshooter- note that the player left a few sessions ago, so she only reached level 6. Our only real optimizer player.

Combat: A+. Put out phenomenal damage at range. DM let her use the two crossbow attacks with the same bow and a shield, so she was tough.

Social: D. Unlikeable character, no social skill proficiencies. Roleplayed well

Exploration: A. Super good at stealth and perception, and a variety of spells to solve tricky problems.

Overall, all three classes have been very good, and together we haven't really had much trouble in any of the three pillars.

[Shining Wrath]

Campaign - RHoD, started at 5, currently 8.
Characters:
Fighter 1/Warlock 7: ... SNIP ... Sounds like our first contender for "outclasses everyone all the time". EB gives an A combat, Flight gives an A for exploration, Charisma-based caster gives an A for social.

Bard 8: Combat: ... SNIP ... Limited by the player not being outgoing in social, but sounds like an B combat A social (underused) C exploration.

Barbarian 8: Combat: ... SNIP ... A for combat, B for exploration, D for social. You might consider the idea that in some situations (per PHB) a different skill can substitute for Charisma - on an intimidate roll, picking some guy up by the shirt and holding him 2' in the air while you snarl into his face can be successful.

Paladin 8: Combat: ... SNIP ... Sounds like B for combat, C for exploration, A for social except the player isn't playing it.

Wizard 8: Combat: ... SNIP ... Sounds like B for combat, A for exploration, C for social.

Other classes...
We had two other characters in the game. The paladin player originally had a Monk, but dropped her for the paladin when we hit 6th level. The monk was elemental...
Combat: ... SNIP ... Combat A, Exploration B, Social C.

Cleric 4/Rogue 3 - ... SNIP ... Combat B, Exploration A, Social B but due to campaign - people like clerics


Moon Druid (+Fighter, Monk, Rogue, last 0-2 varied):
... SNIP ...

Spellcasting doesn't play nice with Wildshape, and short rests weren't as important for the other players anymore. While Giant Constrictor snake could be a good force multiplier, and it was always nice to be able to shift into a wall of HP, Wildshape just wasn't as relevant for these levels; most of the time, I'd use a shift if things looked dicey, and sit on another one just in case the crap hit the fan for future fights. Because of my spells, I didn't miss it that badly, but it changed my role from being a utility frontliner to being a caster hybrid. I could do a little bit of everything, but I was first and foremost a caster. I almost never used the option to burn spell slots as healing while shifted, because the spell list was just that useful.


Combat @1: B-
@2-4: A+ (S with short rest abuse)
@5-9: A- (You never feel useless in combat. A Wizard will give you a case of spell envy, but your list is more than robust enough to do what you need to do.)

Social: D+ (I tanked my social skills, but was still good at picking up information thanks to a solid insight/perception. Having an unwashed druid poke you and "whisper" HE'S LYING does have social drawbacks, though.

Exploration: A. Spell list is amazing for out of combat utility. Pass Without Trace alone would make a class have a B-. Conjure Woodland Beings can let you shift your entire party into a flying/sneaky form for exploration. Bears get advantage on smelling perception. Perception is based off our primary stat. Survival was nice for tracking things. Surprisingly, I didn't use Wildshape as much for exploration, though Giant Spider got us out of a couple of really bad situations.

A,D+,A is solid.


... SNIP >>>

NE Gnome Wizard 5 (Illusionist)

Power: 5 Versatility: 7 (9*) Endurance: 4

... SNIP ...

LG Dwarf Cleric 5 (War)

Power: 7 Versatility: 5 Endurance: 5

... SNIP ...

C"N" "Human" Druid 5 (Moon)

Power: 8 Versatility: 3 Endurance: 7

... SNIP ...

N Dwarf Wizard 5 (Artificer)

Power: 6 Versatility: 6 (8*) Endurance: 3

... SNIP ...

CG Kalashtar Wizard 5 (Transmuter)

Power: 6 Versatility: 7 (9*) Endurance: 6

... SNIP ...

LN Warforged Scout Fighter 4/Rogue 1 (Battlemaster)

Power: 6 Versatility: 3 Endurance: 8

... SNIP ...

CN Tiefling Bard 3 (Lore)

Power: 3 Versatility: 7 Endurance: 5

... SNIP ...

CN Human Rogue 3 (Assassin)

Power: 6 Versatility: 5 Endurance: 7

... SNIP ...

CN Gnome Rogue 2/Bard 3 (Lore)

Power: 4 Versatility: 7 Endurance: 5

... SNIP ...

CN Human Barbarian (Frenzy)

Power: 7 Versatility: 1 Endurance: 9

... SNIP ...

Overall thoughts on class tiers? Uh...

Casters are more versatile than non-casters, but they have limited resources to use, so they can't be ready for everything. Similarly, while they can still nova, their power isn't so much higher than non-casters that they render non-casters useless, because a nova usually isn't enough on its own (or even in groups) to auto-win the encounter.

Martials are much more versatile and powerful compared to 3.5; they're relevant into the lower-middle levels, and their at-will DPR/skills are their big draw. IMO, 5e doesn't need a tier system because a Champion Fighter 6 and a Moon Druid 6 are both incredible combatants, and determining who's technically better isn't really relevant because they both fall in the range of "pretty freaking good", and kill enemies of equal CR and equal HP in roughly equal time.


3-player game, levels 1-7

OOtA Paladin (Noble) VH (Ritual Caster:Wizard), GWM

Combat: A. Social: A. Exploration: B+.


Knowledge Cleric (Acolyte) VH (magic initiate:druid, I believe)

Combat: B+. Not much damage, but good buffs and debuffs. Once we hit level 7, Banishment came online and has been amazing.

Social: A+. Not much of a people person, but the whole "psychic detective"/mindreader shtick is very strong. Combos exceptionally well with the paladin. Great knowledge skills.

Exploration: A: As with the paladin, not super stealthy but great rituals. Some great situational spells as well like Lesser Restoration and Create Food and Water. Lots of magic spying as we level up.


AT Rogue (Criminal) VH (crossbow expert), sharpshooter- note that the player left a few sessions ago, so she only reached level 6. Our only real optimizer player.

Combat: A+. Social: D. Exploration: A.

Overall, all three classes have been very good, and together we haven't really had much trouble in any of the three pillars.

Thank you to all who responded. Lots of data here.

[MaxWilson]

Tell me (us) about campaigns (NOT SINGLE ENCOUNTERS) where for an extended period of time ...


One character was doing the 3.5 Tier 1 thing: everyone else was clearly contributing less, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time, OR
One character was just not pulling their weight, for all 3 pillars, for an extended period of time


Please indicate what level(s) you were at, and the composition of the rest of the party.

You've set the bar high enough that this probably doesn't qualify, but... for an extended period of play (four months?) the party Necromancer was a dominating force in combat, providing 80+% of the DPR via his skeletons. The player has since then switched more to playing his Vengeance Paladin but when a dangerous situation occurs, the players occasionally make comments about wanting him to bring Nox (the Necromancer) back in order to deal with it.

I don't think that fits your definitions because other PCs were able to contribute well on other tiers. E.g. the Shadow Monk was a dominant force when it came to sneaking, and of course anybody at all could do things like try to recruit colonists for their space colony or try to figure out what the mysterious machine's buttons do.

[Shining Wrath]

You've set the bar high enough that this probably doesn't qualify, but... for an extended period of play (four months?) the party Necromancer was a dominating force in combat, providing 80+% of the DPR via his skeletons. The player has since then switched more to playing his Vengeance Paladin but when a dangerous situation occurs, the players occasionally make comments about wanting him to bring Nox (the Necromancer) back in order to deal with it.

I don't think that fits your definitions because other PCs were able to contribute well on other tiers. E.g. the Shadow Monk was a dominant force when it came to sneaking, and of course anybody at all could do things like try to recruit colonists for their space colony or try to figure out what the mysterious machine's buttons do.

If you remember the Tier discussions in 3.5, Tier 3 was "very good in one area, able to contribute in others". It appears Nox was a solid Tier 3.

[Shining Wrath]

Results thus far. I don't have any reports of higher level play; everything above is single-digit levels.


I have one character who excelled in all 3 pillars, and that Warlock still had to be rescued in at least one combat.
I have two classes ranked very low in the theory-crafting - Wild Mage Sorcerer and Frenzy Barbarian - pulling their weight. No one has put in a story about a Beastmaster Ranger.
I have a couple of reports that Ritual Caster can boost an otherwise weak character in the Exploration Pillar.
I have reports that at lower levels the Moon Druid really is overwhelming in combat, but that goes away above level 4.

[Vogonjeltz]

though the bard Polymorphing me into a ape once I did finally go down really won the fight in the end

Polymorph can't be used on a target with 0 hit points, so I'm assuming you meant to say just before getting downed.

[Flashy]

3 player game, levels 1-7. The game had an incredibly powerful start with stats assigned by 4d6 drop 1 reroll 1s. All characters received a bonus feat, variant human was not allowed.


Fiend Pact Bladelock, Guild Merchant, Half-Orc, Shield Master.

Combat: B+. The spellcasting makes the character pretty combat flexible, and the fiend pact list is amazing. He has taken most of his spells from that rather than the standard warlock list. Was probably a solid B until fifth level when he picked up Fireball and Vampiric touch. Now roams around much of the time with Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield up for good retributive damage on enemies who attack him. DM allowed him to take shield master so he has reasonable AC. That combines with the fiend pact temporary hit point feature to makes remarkably tanky. He'd probably be a lot less effective in melee without the ability to knock enemies prone as a bonus action. Agonizing Blast makes him a good combat all-rounder effective at most ranges. Short Rest recharge made him an A+ the time we did a ~15 encounter dungeon without a long rest.

Social: A-. High Charisma and social skill proficiency make the warlock as good a face as any, but the player is badly out of practice on social characters and occasionally flubs things. Good, but not as good as a social Rogue or Bard.

Exploration: B-. Access to Fly and Spider Climb are useful, but the limited number of spell slots and the intense blasting focus of the warlock spell list combine to make it hard to shine in this role. His proficiencies are nothing to write home about, but adding a d10 to any skill check once per short rest comes in handy way more often than I would have expected.


Light Cleric 1/Open Hand Monk 6, Acolyte, Wood Elf, Lucky.

Combat: A. I have been genuinely impressed by how this build has grown over time. It was a rough beginning with the Ki delay dragging hard on levels 2/3 but now the character is well into his own and makes a remarkable battlefield controller. Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows make the character a melee powerhouse and between bonus action dodge, the Light Cleric disadvantage on reaction feature, and the Lucky feat he rarely takes a hit. I suspect that having two short rest reliant characters in the same party is showing both to advantage since the party is much more willing to short rest when everyone gets their class features back.

Social: B. No real Charisma reliance, no social skill proficiency, but bounded accuracy keeps the character reasonably effective in social situations. Lucky helps here too.

Exploration: A. Wood Elf advantage on stealth in the wilderness (where we've spent most of the game), ability to burn a ki for bonus action dash, and extremely high stealth modifier make this character a scouting powerhouse. Lucky is useful as ever and Guidance from the Light Cleric level keeps him from being actively bad at anything he has a round to prepare for.


Fighter 2/Vengeance Paladin 5, Pirate, Human, GWM, Sentinel.

Combat: A+. Incredible burst, incredible sustain, good healing, reasonable AC, Action Surge, paladin mount, the list could go on for days. The character was built to fight and does it incredibly well. Originally used a halberd with Polearm Master but switched to GWM with a greatsword when the DM wouldn't let him get away with an infinite amount of Sentinel/Polearm cheese. We don't use a grid, which doesn't really benefit that combo anyway.

Social: C+. Character likes to kill things, doesn't spend much time doing anything but passively interacting with NPCs. Took intimidate skill proficiency and loves throwing the severed heads of his enemies at their friends, but that's sort of a social skill applied to a combat situation so I'm not ranking it here.

Exploration: D. Wears plate mail, doesn't have stealth proficiency or a dex modifier, never prepares noncombat spells, only redeeming feature is knowledge history. The horse would probably be more useful if the rest of the party didn't insist on riding mules. I think Detect Evil and Good came in handy literally once.