Paladins and Dreamed Secrets

[Xuldarinar]

A simple question that may or may not have a simple answer:

Can a paladin qualify for Dreamed Secrets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dreamed-secrets)?
I suppose this question would remain true for other things, such as feats like Demonic Obedience.

[Gemini476]

Prerequisite(s): Ability to cast divine spells,
No problem there. The Paladin is a divine caster.


caster level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Caster-Level) 7th,
You'll need to be level 10 since your caster level is your level-3, but sure. There's probably ways around that. No real issue.


worshiper of a Great Old One or Outer God.
Ooh, that's a problem. Bokrug and Mhar are the only non-Evil GOOs, and they're Chaotic Neutral.

The only non-Chaotic Evil Outer God is Azatoth. Y'know, the Chaotic Neutral god of "entropy, madness, mindless destruction".


I guess if you can find some way to get a Paladin who worships one of those three Lovecraftian horrors without falling then you're fine, though. They're not like Clerics, they don't need to care about being within a step of their god's alignment.

[Geddy2112]

Yeah, if you can find a way to worship an outer god or GOO while being LG, then yes. That depends entirely on your DM and setting.

An antipaladin would have far less trouble achieving this.

[Xuldarinar]

See, thats the issue. We get into an important question; What are the mechanical implications of Worship?

Its only ever really defined in terms of classes that draw power from them, and typically it is one step, but theres no such rule for others and one can certainly rationalize worshiping a deity of two or more steps away.

One could ask as to why a paladin would worship such a being but.. we could then discuss insanity in how it relates to alignment. Could a paladin be insane and still be a paladin? I'd say so but others might disagree.

Edit: Yeah, the antipaladin is an option certainly. I had a thought of building, simply because, a mind sword paladin who took/takes that feat. I could swap to antipaladin but that archetype would need a tweak, I think.

[Gemini476]

You're pretty lucky that some of the horrors that lurk in the far beyond are Neutral, at least - the Code of Conduct is mostly just Anti-Evil, rather than Anti-Evil and Chaos.

The only bits that I'd call troublesome would be needing to stay Lawful Good and the "help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)" bit of the CoC.

Now then, let's look at your option.

Behind door number one, we have Bokrug.

Though Bokrug is chaotic neutral, almost all of his worshipers are chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. Only a rare few chaotic good worshipers of Bokrug exist—most of these being delusional heretics or apologists who seek to keep Bokrug calm, ensuring he continues to slumber. These heretics and outliers of the faith are remorselessly hunted down by his more zealous and traditional worshipers.
Hmmm. Yeah, that's a problem. I guess you could spin things off as you being a Paladin who sacrifices nonsentient critters to the Water Lizard to keep it calm and the rest of the world safe.

Gibbering behind curtain #2, Mhar.
...I don't know much about Mhar, to be honest. All I know is that it's sleeping beneath a mountain and it waking up would be a Bad Thing™ for Golarion?

Lounging behind star #3, Azathoth.
The Daemon Sultan is chaos. Azathoth has few worshippers, most of whom seek power for their own ends, none of which the Blind Idiot God cares about.


...I think I'd either go with Bokrug or ask your DM for leniency in refluffing, to be honest.

[Xuldarinar]

Yog-sothoth is also CN if memory serves. Might be a few shades easier to worship CN embodiment of time and space, instead of the primal chaos.

[Milo v3]

See, thats the issue. We get into an important question; What are the mechanical implications of Worship?
Mechanically, I think it only affects he classes you mentioned, and any actions you do as a result of your worship. You could worship an evil being, but as long as you don't do any evil, then you aren't evil (I think).


Could a paladin be insane and still be a paladin? I'd say so but others might disagree.
There are mechanics for insanity (even if they are crap) so yes.

[Gemini476]

Yog-sothoth is also CN if memory serves. Might be a few shades easier to worship CN embodiment of time and space, instead of the primal chaos.

Yog-Sothoth is Chaotic Neutral, but that endgame basically results in everyone being driven to Chaotic Evil insanity, so. Well.


At least the primal chaos just doesn't care about you either way.

[Xuldarinar]

Mechanically, I think it only affects he classes you mentioned, and any actions you do as a result of your worship. You could worship an evil being, but as long as you don't do any evil, then you aren't evil (I think).


That makes sense. It can be a tightrope to walk, and one must be especially careful regarding association (thats another can o' worms), but it is certainly doable.



There are mechanics for insanity (even if they are crap) so yes.

Yeah, better them than nothing.


Yog-Sothoth is Chaotic Neutral, but that endgame basically results in everyone being driven to Chaotic Evil insanity, so. Well.


Granted. Im not entirely sure why Yog's spawn are CE, but Yog is CN. Just one of those things, I suppose.



At least the primal chaos just doesn't care about you either way.

Granted, but it really isn't smart enough to care really. If it did... then it would be trouble. I'll have to think of him though, maybe throw together a Silver Balladeer that worships him sometime, just because. A flautist playing a silver flute in honor of the blind idiot god.. Thats another matter.


It would really help the discussion, I think, if the Outer Gods and/or the Great Old Ones had Deific Obediences associated with them (or even a different feat just for them). An insight in what is required in their service, as sometimes such a thing, while the feat is legal, the act may cause a paladin to fall.

[Arbane]

Maybe you could persuade the GM to add Kysul (http://www.incursion-roguelike.net/man/Pantheon.html#KY) to their pantheon? (It would make a good patron god for flumphs...)

[Psyren]

I don't personally see how you can claim to worship an entity without following any of their edicts/dogma or advancing any of their goals. If it's purely nominal lip service, there should be no mechanical benefits to doing so, any more than quickly saying "Praise Sarenrae" right before you die after a long life of wickedness and debauchery should land you in Elysium.

The Paladin's associates clause only allows them to work with evil to defeat a greater evil (atoning regularly), but to be perfectly honest I can't actually think of a greater evil than the Lovecraftian pantheon. Even Asmodeus and Lamashtu can be reasoned with.

[Xuldarinar]

I don't personally see how you can claim to worship an entity without following any of their edicts/dogma or advancing any of their goals. If it's purely nominal lip service, there should be no mechanical benefits to doing so, any more than quickly saying "Praise Sarenrae" right before you die after a long life of wickedness and debauchery should land you in Elysium.

The Paladin's associates clause only allows them to work with evil to defeat a greater evil (atoning regularly), but to be perfectly honest I can't actually think of a greater evil than the Lovecraftian pantheon. Even Asmodeus and Lamashtu can be reasoned with.

Well, thats just it. What are the edicts to worship these entities? What dogma is there to follow, other than to help bring them into the world? Provided you never succeed, is trying to bring them in, in of itself, an evil act? Though, as mentioned above, there are worshippers (though heretics) that seek to keep their patron calm and asleep.

Now on the lovecraftian pantheon. Are they the greatest evil? Are they, as a whole, evil? I won't say for a second that their goals, alien as they are, that their ends are healthy for anyone. I will acknowledge some among them are pretty evil, Nyarlathotep for instance, but as a pantheon are they all wholly evil?

And just because you can reason with someone, doesn't make them less evil. Is an engine of destruction more evil than a vile manipulator? Is one who seeks destruction more evil than those that represent and seek to spread sin? Is madness more evil than the destruction of the soul? Is the uncaring and incomprehensible more evil than those that delight in harm?

[MasterFu]

This whole discussion reminds me of Sithrak from a frequently NSFW webcomic that I won't link here (although the Sithrak strips are relevant, and hilarious). From the wiki:

"According to the Doomsayers of the Blind Gibberer, Sithrak waits in the afterlife to torture all people, bad or good, for all of eternity. Sithrak doesn't deny writing the text they go off of, but claims he was angry when he wrote it and that it is just teen poetry."