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Bounces
2015-10-26, 05:01 PM
So here is my attempt to fix the Monk, or at least make it more interesting.

It steals an idea from the Qinggong Monk ACF but takes it to what I thought was a more interesting conclusion.

The monk can trade in class abilities for SLAs of self only spells from the Sorc/Wiz, Cleric, and Druid Spell lists. The SLAs cost points in Ki equal to their spell level. When taking this ACF they are given a SLA Max Level Sum, they can select spells until the sum of the spell levels hits that ceiling.

This means if they save up they can get access to higher spells earlier than other classes, but can only use them once or twice a day and not really have any other class features, which would probably hose them unless it is an awesome SLA.

This is the plan I have in place. Drafted it in excel so excuse the weird formatting...

Ki Pool (Alternate) 4th
The monk gains a Ki Pool with points equal to 1/2 his monk level + his wisdom modifier

SLA Level Sum: 3
The monk may select any number of spells from the approved spell list whose spell levels add um to his Max Level Sum. He may select these now or wait, but once selected it cannot be changed without use of a wish spell.

SLA - As a standard action the monk can use any of the spells he has selected as a spell like ability. Doing so expends points from his ki pool equal to the spell level
A first level spell expends 1 ki point, a second level spell expends 2 ki points, etc.

The monk loses all other abilities described in the Ki Pool section.

Slow Fall Replacement 4th
The monk may give up his slow fall ability to add 1 point to his SLA Max Level Sum. If he does so Slow Fall cannot be gained back by any alternate means.

High Jump Replacement 5th
The monk may give up his high jump ability to add 1 point to his SLA Max Level Sum. If he does so High Jump cannot be gained back by any alternate means.

Purity of Body Replacement 5th
The monk may give up his Purity of Body ability to add 1 point to his SLA Max Level Sum. If he does so Purity of Body cannot be gained back by any alternate means.

Wholeness of Body Replacement 7th
1 point to SLA Max

Diamond Body 11th
3 point SLA Max

Abundant Step 12th
3 point SLA Max

Diamond Soul 13th
5 point SLA Max

Quivering Palm 15th
4 point SLA Max

Timeless Body 17th
3 point SLA Max

Tounge of Sun and Moon 17th
4 Point SLA Max

Etherealness 19th
7 Point SLA Max

Perfect Self 20th
9 Point SLA Max


Some of the Point SLA Max replacements might need to be tweaked.

Spells that they might select are essentially all of the buffs from the above mentioned spell lists...so things like Shield, Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Rage, Spider Climb, Haste, Fly, all the way up to high level SLAs like Transformation or Holy Aura. The buffs would all be self only, even if the spell description says that it can target others.

The higher the SLA the less often per day they can use it...unless they cheese out their ki pool.

To avoid really easy cheese Ki Leech is NOT on the list.

Really focused on given versatility and interest.

Thoughts?

Pex
2015-10-26, 06:31 PM
Not to burst your bubble, but the Pathfinder Unchained Monk did the work for you. Full BAB. D10 HD. Flurry of Blows changed to giving an extra attack, later two extra attacks, at max BAB with no penalty to hit and stacks with Haste. Players have full control of class features taking whatever they want from a large list of options. Don't want slow fall? Take something else. Don't want spell resistance because it works against party buffs? Take something else. Choosing a Qingqong option is one of the choices. You can check it out online at the SRD. It's possible it goes too far depending on your aesthetic preference.

Happy Mon(k)day! :smallsmile:

avr
2015-10-26, 07:14 PM
So. At 11th level the monk either buys a casting of wish, or retrains out of this archetype? and back in to it, and from then on most of her ki is dedicated to casting shapechange for 110 minutes of fun per day. Shapechange is a self-only buff which seems to meet your criteria and it's thematic as can be.

Bounces
2015-10-26, 09:44 PM
Shapechange is in list as is the form spells leading up to it (elemental for example)

Wish is not.

If the PC. Wants to use most of her ki on Shapechange each day she can. Mileage may vary though. That's 2 hours of a 10 - 16 hour day.

Vhaidara
2015-10-26, 10:22 PM
Shapechange is in list as is the form spells leading up to it (elemental for example)

Wish is not.

If the PC. Wants to use most of her ki on Shapechange each day she can. Mileage may vary though. That's 2 hours of a 10 - 16 hour day.

So you're saying that having access to one of the most broken 9th level spells 6 levels early is okay, because you only get it for 2 hours a day? In a system famous for the 15 minute adventuring day?

avr
2015-10-26, 11:34 PM
Oh, it's not unbeatable. One successful dispel magic and your monk is a mook again for the day. Attack the party with assassins day and night and she won't know when to use it. But ... in any case where the players lead the action it is a buff so good that it may be too good, which can be changed as a free action once per round to cover any of a hundred possible situations.

The wish was only mentioned as a means of changing the SLAs, on the basis that if playing from an earlier level you wouldn't want to waste the ability. ('... cannot be changed without use of a wish spell.')

Another, lower level idea: a hungry ghost monk who picks frostbite and mirror image to become a cut-rate but theoretically unlimited endurance magus. Is that too OK in your game?

Bounces
2015-10-29, 03:02 PM
I am fine with mirror image. I don't have any issues with Frostbite, but it isn't on the list because I limited the list to CRB. Much like with sorcerers this ACF can start to go a little crazy as you add more options from additional sources.

EDIT: On the second look - FrostBite is written more as an attack spell than as a buff. When going through spell lists I chose not to include spells like Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch. Was really focusing on things that make the character stronger rather than things that allow special attacks. With that in mind unless I change the focus of the spell list I don't think FrostBite would be on it.

I have a house rule in my games that you can only take 1 ACF...so Hungry Ki Casting Ghost Monk wouldn't be an option. Mileage may vary I guess.

I am worrying about the early access.

Early Access...You can get shape change and 1 first level spell at 11th level. Granted, you have trudged a hard road with very limited class abilities to get there...some maybe it is a just reward. But is Shape Change at level 11 so OP to be unreasonable?

I could impose a level limit formula based on the spell level. In order to choose a specific spell like ability your character level must be at least 1.5 times that spell level (takes early access of Shape Change to 9+4.5, 13.5, 14. That seems a little better. Still a couple of levels sooner than Casters, but more in line maybe? If you save up you can get heavy hitting abilities early, but there is a cost to pay.

What do you guys think?

Bounces
2015-10-29, 03:14 PM
I guess the other option is to put in a sla progression table like the spell progression table that casters have.

Feels a little to boxy for what I was wanting, but it may be the only thing to make it balanced.

avr
2015-10-30, 10:46 AM
Bounces, I have already named two ways to get to the shapechange@11 without treading the long hard road. 1) retrain into this archetype at level 11 (see Ultimate Campaign for rules), 2) hire a caster, efreeti or whatver to cast wish when you reach level 11 - this last was included as a means in your initial post.

I haven't been a fan of trying to balance late game power with early game weakness since first edition AD&D but in any case that isn't what you have here. You could spend your first 10 levels as I dunno, a tetori grappler or a hungry ghost stealing life energy, until you receive full enlightenment and spend your time adventuring as a shapeshifting dragon.

And yes, IME by 11th level the party will seldom spend days slogging thru swamps rather than flying or teleporting places, so the 2 hour duration will cover the usual adventuring day. Whether it is then overpowered depends on how often you have enemies open with dispel magic. If the answer is seldom, then yes it is.

The highest I've actually played to is level 14. By that time the full casters have an incredible variety of spells and stuff like limited wish for when one of their normal tools doesn't fit ... and it's hard to imagine anything being truly overpowered. Those few levels do make a difference.

No hungry ghost combo allowed means no cut-rate magus, sure.