Orcs: Dos and Don'ts!

[ThinkMinty]

On the suggestion of Hawkstar, it's time to talk about Orcs, or Orks, depending on how extreme you want to spell the word.


Well, if you want to have one about Orcs, I've got some entertaining DOs for them (Make them ridiculous. Orcs-as-generic-badguys and Orcs-as-misunderstood-primitives have both been done to death. Nobody, however, has seen Tony Horc and his pro Skatorcs, nor the Orcvenger Helorcarrier with Tony Storc (Iron Orc), Captain Orcmerica, Black Widorc, Roceye, The Mighty Thorc, and The Incredible Hork!) and one moralizing don't (DON'T: Overtly base them on Native American culture. That **** ain't cool.)

So, Orcs! What makes them Orcs, what makes them generic cookie-cutter boring why-bother Orcs?

I'm personally a fan of the pig-style orc, because it makes half-orcs biologically plausible.

[StealthyRobot]

For most orcs:
DO make them open to letting the party go if they leave the elf
DONT make them a rampaging, orderless horde

For my orc NPC:
DO make him have the mentality of a child
DONT make him want to do anything his friends say
DO make him want to him to do good over bad
DONT make him scared of things
DO make him YELL EVERYTHING
DONT make him able to undestand simple concepts, like alcohol

a typical conversation "ME FIRE! GOOD FIRE! YOU?" or "NOT BAD FIRE. BAD FIRE HURT. HURT BAD. ME GOOD FIRE!"

[TheThan]

Do embrace the noble savage trope.
Do give them an interesting tribal society
Do give them spell casters; they don’t have to be wizards and sorcerers though.
Do make them smart enough to recognize the weedy guy in the back is probably more dangerous than the big scary guy armored up to high heaven.
Do give them an agenda with short and long term goals.
Do make them able to be reasoned with.
Don’t make them just Xp to be killed
Don’t make them just a hoard of rampaging monsters
Don’t make them mad, orcs tend to split people’s heads open when they’re mad

[ThinkMinty]

Do give them spell casters; they don’t have to be wizards and sorcerers though.

Sorcerers fit Orcs pretty well, and even a nomadic culture can have a Bookmobile in the caravan, so Wizards are less likely, but entirely possible.

[M Placeholder]

Do know your Orogs - The ones that are found on the World of the BIRTHRIGHT setting, and the ones in the monster manual. Know when an Orog in a Orc horde is appropriate

Give them Skalds - Orcs would have a rich history of songs, and an Orc skald would be hugely respected.

[Anonymouswizard]

Do decide if they are people or monsters. Either is fine if that helps tell your story, but pick one and stick to it.

Don't let this turn into another instance of the goblins thread.

[goto124]

First two sentences apply to any race/species.

[FlumphPaladin]

On the suggestion of Hawkstar

If you're into suggestions, I'd like to put kobolds on the list...

[Roderick_BR]

DO: make them the quintessential barbarian. Not knowing "technology" well, be confused in big cities, anti-social with anyone outside the group.

DO NOT: date the orc. Specially if you are a dwarf. People starts staring and asking questions.

[veti]

Much the same as goblins...

DO: remember that anything orcs can do, humans can do. What role are you using "orcs" to fill, and why?

DON'T: make them magically-engineered soldiers created by some implausibly unambitious god. Been there, done that.

Being an orc should mean something. Mostly, it should mean that most civilised folks will - at best - shun you. And if you take any kind of pride in your heritage, you'll return the favour. If you're trying to keep racism out of your campaign, then "including orcs" is not the way to do it.

[Lord Gehnvaar]

Do remember to WAAAAAAGH!
Don't forget to give them funny accents

[Vitruviansquid]

Do: Make them fierce, strong, and dreaded.

Don't: Make them raiders and conquerers, but somehow weaker than the races they attempt to raid and conquer.

[Mr. Mask]

I've come to question the value of these threads. I'll sum up the majority of posts that tend to occur:

DO: Make them something other than orcs.

DON'T: Make them even vaguely orcish.

[Hawkstar]

Much the same as goblins...

DO: remember that anything orcs can do, humans can do. What role are you using "orcs" to fill, and why?

DON'T: make them magically-engineered soldiers created by some implausibly unambitious god. Been there, done that.

Being an orc should mean something. Mostly, it should mean that most civilised folks will - at best - shun you. And if you take any kind of pride in your heritage, you'll return the favour. If you're trying to keep racism out of your campaign, then "including orcs" is not the way to do it.
I fail to see how "Completely Take over the world using only the people I made to look exactly how I want - no diplo" is "implausibly unambitious". I'd consider it implausibly overambitious if I didn't try to do it all the time in any 4X or other grand strategy game that lets me be a fantastic racial supremacist bastard (All humans die. Only cats remain. Or orcs)


DON'T: Make orcs the overdone "Proud, insignificant tribal people putzing around badlands".
DON'T: accept the human domination of the world lying down, even if it means they have to bust the skulls of those who are too stupid to learn to defend themselves and hide behind 'innocence' as though that word has any meaning while they are helping themselves to the vast bulk of the world's natural resources just because they got there first.
DON'T: Have orcs be persuaded that humans aren't taking/haven't taken over the world when it's obvious that humans already make up more than 90% of the population in 90% of the world.
DON'T: Make Orcs primitive, ignorant, "noble" savages.
DON'T: Base Orcs on Native Americans.

DO: Have them stand against humans trying to impose their moral and cultural superiority over orcs.
DO: Include Gruumsh and Luthic with orcs, and have them be active and vocal.
DO: Make Orcs just as self-assured of the validity of their moral and cultural values as humans and elves.
DON'T: Have them get into a long philosophical debate when their battleaxe can speak for them.
DON'T: Make Orc leaders uneccessary bullies.
DO: Make Orc leaders respected for their strength and power, feared for their wrath, and inspiring for others to emulate.
DO: Make Orcs notice when a leader is trying to suppress the promotion of its subordinates, and allow him to be overthrown for a more worthy up-and-coming leader.

DON'T: Make Orc Women into 'innocent victims' in need of rescuing from orc culture.
DO: Make Orc Women highly respected in the tribes, even if non-orcs struggle to see how they're not being treated as 'breeding stock' despite some outward appearances. It's not the orcs' fault that human and elven women are stupidly physically, emotionally, and mentally fragile to match orcish reproductive rate and style. After all - What's stronger than the mightiest Orcish Warlord? The one who made them by surviving their father.


Dammit... I intended to have more funny ones.

DO: Make orcs over-the-top in everything they do. They die as awesome as they live.
DON'T: Give them a Charisma penalty, regardless of what the rules say. In fact,
DO: Give them a charisma bonus and merely a significantly penalty to diplomacy, allowing them to mechanically be potent warlords, Warlocks, sorcerers, and power bards.
DO: Give them crazy weapons like double-axes (That they can spin above their heads to become helorcopters(Helicoptorcs?)), skateswords (Greatswords that work like skateboards!), and similar that shake up how they play in combat.
DON'T: Make orcs just a bunch of identical mooks.
DO: Give Orcs heroes that can match and mirror the party.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've come to question the value of these threads. I'll sum up the majority of posts that tend to occur:

DO: Make them something other than orcs.

DON'T: Make them even vaguely orcish.

I've come to view them as more of a 'share your versions of X'. So in the goblins thread I gave a two-version goblinoids society, and find the views of orcs/orks (from 'humany' to 'waaaarghhammer') interesting.

[FlumphPaladin]

waaaarghhammer

DO: Have their favorite strategy be to make their giant canine mounts bite the end of a long pole so they can swing them as melee weapons.
DON'T: Give them a deep and all-consuming interest in tabletop miniatures.

[Cool Trash]

DO: Give them an inexplicable posh british accent and have their camps be littered with teapots and silver trays. Also, make sure they take a swift action to adjust their monocles before raging.
Or whatever. Just have them speak in anything but broken english.

DON'T: Make them inferior to the other races. Don't let that collective -2 and bad eyesight fool you: if those orcs take a stronghold and get ahold of horses, longbows, siege weaponry, and whatever other technology that was keeping them from being "civilized", their hordes should be mopping the floor with everyone else, because that's what they're built for. It's what they are. The only thing an elf has on an orc is a pinch of dexterity, better weapons, an education, and a grooming kit. Give an Orc any two of those, and we'll see who has the shortened lifespan.

[The Fury]

DO: Give them an inexplicable posh british accent and have their camps be littered with teapots and silver trays. Also, make sure they take a swift action to adjust their monocles before raging.
Or whatever. Just have them speak in anything but broken english.


"I say, old chap! That lot got past our sentries and they're attacking our camp!"

"Well I never! And it was just about time for tea. That's just the problem with murder-hobos-- no manners at all!"

"Shall we, then?"

"After you, my good sir!"

"GRAAAAAAARRR!!"



DON'T: Give them a deep and all-consuming interest in tabletop miniatures.

I'm pretty sure that's a Dorc, not an Orc, that your thinking of.

[veti]

I fail to see how "Completely Take over the world using only the people I made to look exactly how I want - no diplo" is "implausibly unambitious". I'd consider it implausibly overambitious if I didn't try to do it all the time in any 4X or other grand strategy game that lets me be a fantastic racial supremacist bastard (All humans die. Only cats remain. Or orcs)

It's unambitious because in the world you're living in, "power" has nothing to do with how many grunts you can muster, and everything to do with how many XP you can acquire. By creating a whole race of low-level grunts and painting a target on them, you're basically giving power to your enemies. And I would've thought that anyone capable of holding on to a "god" post for more than about three minutes, is smart enough to figure that out.

[VoxRationis]

DO: Give them an inexplicable posh british accent and have their camps be littered with teapots and silver trays. Also, make sure they take a swift action to adjust their monocles before raging.
Or whatever. Just have them speak in anything but broken english.


And if the PCs lose initiative, the orc chieftain starts the surprise round starts with a song...
I am the very model of a savage orc barbarian
For when the drums and fife resound, and so do trumpets clarion
I go to dungeons where adventurers prefer to stalk and lurk
and then I strike and slaughter them with my +3 enchanted dirk

Despite my class being illiterate, you'll find I'm quite well-read
I have my shaman read aloud each night before I go to bed
In battle I fly into rage, which somehow makes me accurate...

And though I'm foaming at the mouth, my diction is IMMACULATE!

[orc chorus]: And though he's foaming at the mouth, his diction is immaculate!
And though he's foaming at the mouth, his diction is immaculate!
And though he's foaming at the mouth, his diction is immacu-macu-late!

[chieftain]
Decidedly more durable than fighters, thieves, or paladins,
My martial might's enough to send the nearby bards a-balladin'
For when I use my greataxe I turn wizards into carrion
I am the very model of a savage orc barbarian

[Thrudd]

Do: Have orcs that are willing and eager to eat other sentient humanoids. Man flesh especially is a favorite, but they probably wouldn't turn down anything (goblin, kobold, orcs from another band) if they are hungry enough.

Have orcs that are brutal and quick to resort to violence.

Have orcs that consider torture and mutilation of corpses to be gleeful pasttimes. Severed heads and other limbs/extremities should be common decorations and adornments around an orc camp.

Orcs follow strength and power, and do not tolerate weakness. An orc or prisoner/slave that is wounded or can't pull their weight is likely to end up as a meal.

Don't: have your orcs speak in childish or broken english phrases or refer to themselves in the third person. They may not be universally as smart as the common human, but they are clever enough to make deals, act as mercenaries, and understand the value of goods and treasure.

Don't: remove everything that is frightful and disturbing about orcs and turn them into some kind of noble, misunderstood barbarian tribe. They aren't noble. They don't fight fair, they run when it looks like they can't win a fight, they don't hesitate to sneak up on people in the night to slaughter them in their sleep. Some extra big and strong orcs like to make shows of their strength to keep the others in line and gain prestige in their band, but they tend not to be as brave when things look dangerous and they don't have a gang of supporters around them.
They have survived as outcasts in the wild places by fighting, killing, and eating anything weaker than they are, and running from or appeasing anything stronger.

Don't: remove orcs' hatred of the sun. They have senses attuned to the darkness and hate and resent the daylight races. Nightime in the vicinity of an orc lair should be a scary time for anyone not in a fortified location.

[Kitten Champion]

You don't have to restrict yourself to one singular hat for all the Orcs in your setting. Making some Orcs belligerent and others relatively benign or even benevolent is fine.

It's not like there aren't as many variety of Elves as there are ice cream flavours, I think Orcs can be broadened somewhat.

[Hawkstar]

It's unambitious because in the world you're living in, "power" has nothing to do with how many grunts you can muster, and everything to do with how many XP you can acquire. By creating a whole race of low-level grunts and painting a target on them, you're basically giving power to your enemies. And I would've thought that anyone capable of holding on to a "god" post for more than about three minutes, is smart enough to figure that out.

But they're no more 'low level grunts' than elves or humans are... Orcs have class levels too, and their culture is designed around making lots of mooks then advancing them as quickly as possible.

[NovenFromTheSun]

If orcs are evil:
DO look in there brains a bit and show how the world looks to them. Whether that makes them tragic or even more horrific is another matter.

DON'T give them the appearance of trappings of a real world race or culture. I don't think I'll have to tell why.

If orcs aren't evil:
DO give them story potential/plot arcs that are about more than what stereotypes they face.

DON'T make them just act like evil orcs but then bend over backwards to make their acts look less bad when they do it rather than humans or elves.

[Talion]

DON'T make your orcs out of treasure. Especially if the treasure isn't yours to begin with.
DON'T make said orcs revert to their treasure form when defeated.
DON'T make your orcs incapable of fighting the enemy due to a lack of equipment
DON'T make your orcs incapable of fighting the enemy due to a lack of courage

And ESPECIALLY DON'T make your legions of mook orcs fight a dragon you couldn't hit with your planet wide crystallization spell.

DO give your orcs inexplicable planes, trains, battleships, grenades, TNT barrels, and machine guns.

[NorthernPhoenix]

DO give your orcs inexplicable planes, trains, battleships, grenades, TNT barrels, and machine guns.

Warcraft is that you?

[Talion]

Warcraft is that you?

Spyro the Dragon actually

[Segev]

Orcs were actually the second race I was pleased with my ideas on for how to make alien humanoids that lived up to their hype.

The key elements of orcish behavior I wanted to hang on to were their savagery, their tribal, selfish nature, and their tendency to thrive on violence and pillaging.

In human history, these behaviors led to short-term success, and wealth for the raiders relative to those they routinely raided, but did not lead to overall advancement of society, culture, technology, and production. In fact, they hindered production - and therefore technology - considerably. The optimal models for human social and economic interaction tend to center around trade and specialization: specialized humans produce more at a higher quality, so when they exchange goods and services with humans specializing in other areas, they tend to all have greater surplus in the end.

This is why the greatest and mightiest human civilizations have supported specialization and recognized the benefits of trade over coercion.

To make orcs "work" in a way that is alien to humanity, I took what they're known for and attempted to design their physical, spiritual, and mental makeups such that that really is the optimal way to structure their socio-economic interactions.

Therefore: orcs do not have a point where "enough" is enough. There is no point when they start to get fat and overburdened by conspicuous consumption; they do not WASTE products that are given in excess to singular individuals. I don't mean that they have some superior mental or spiritual nature that keeps them from squandering things; I mean that having one orc, on a basic level, eat more than his fellows doesn't waste food nor achieve diminishing returns.

Quite the contrary: the more an orc consumes, the stronger and more productive he can be. The limitation is on how much they can cram into their stomachs and how fast they can digest it into more muscle. So excess is a thing they can share with their favored cronies and warriors, but the Big Orc getting first dibs means he really is going to keep growing bigger and badder.

They are also better hunters and gatherers than they are agrarians. More efficient the larger they get, they can range farther and wider to obtain sufficient food, with consumption needs which increase slower than their ability to range.

A more carnivorous diet means agriculture is less efficient than ranching, so any agriculture in which they engaged would be to feed herds.

I never did manage to make them actually improve things through violence; violence still tears them down just as it does humans, rewarding the violent with short-term gains but overall reducing the productive value of the race as a whole. However, they are FAR more capable of growth through violence than other races, because the tendency for the strong to keep the most and best for themselves really does amplify the overall might and wealth of the group.

[Hawkstar]

don't make your orcs out of treasure. Especially if the treasure isn't yours to begin with.
Don't make said orcs revert to their treasure form when defeated.
Don't make your orcs incapable of fighting the enemy due to a lack of equipment
don't make your orcs incapable of fighting the enemy due to a lack of courage

and especially don't make your legions of mook orcs fight a dragon you couldn't hit with your planet wide crystallization spell.

Do give your orcs inexplicable planes, trains, battleships, grenades, tnt barrels, and machine guns.

Hey! GNO GNORCS!

[Corsair]

Why is basing Orcish culture off Native American culture such a no-no? Because Orcs Is Bad? Orcs is Ugly? Orcs is Stupid? Isn't portraying them as Native Americans an effective way to sort of play off the cultural perception of the Native Americans, that they were seen as evil, often ugly, and almost invariably stupid and primitive? You have Orcish tribes and your players have to deal with them, but (assuming your players are the least bit thoughtful) when you cloak them in the raiment of, say, the Iroquois, your players might be more inclined to wonder if there's more going on than what they've been told by their Human employers.

Obviously you don't base them off Native Culture if you're going with Evil Orc Tribes. I wouldn't base Chaotic Evil Orc Tribes on much of anything, as that's pretty offensive. But if you're going sympathetic Orcs basing them off Native Tribes seems as legitimate a route as any. You've got materials for all sorts of interesting stories there. Yeah, at first blush it might seem kind of offensive and it's not a story route I would go with any old group - a group that didn't trust me I'd be liable to get punched in the face after the first time I mentioned an Orcish Medicine Man or something of the kind.

To be honest, I wouldn't actually do this at all. I'm not all that well versed in the culture of any of the Native American nations and I don't think I'd do it justice. But saying "No, don't do this" is dishonest. It's ludicrous to say you can base Orcs off any culture seen as Barbaric - Norse, Goths, Celts, Mongols, and so on - but say that they are sacrosanct.

[Thrudd]

Why is basing Orcish culture off Native American culture such a no-no? Because Orcs Is Bad? Orcs is Ugly? Orcs is Stupid? Isn't portraying them as Native Americans an effective way to sort of play off the cultural perception of the Native Americans, that they were seen as evil, often ugly, and almost invariably stupid and primitive? You have Orcish tribes and your players have to deal with them, but (assuming your players are the least bit thoughtful) when you cloak them in the raiment of, say, the Iroquois, your players might be more inclined to wonder if there's more going on than what they've been told by their Human employers.

Obviously you don't base them off Native Culture if you're going with Evil Orc Tribes. I wouldn't base Chaotic Evil Orc Tribes on much of anything, as that's pretty offensive. But if you're going sympathetic Orcs basing them off Native Tribes seems as legitimate a route as any. You've got materials for all sorts of interesting stories there. Yeah, at first blush it might seem kind of offensive and it's not a story route I would go with any old group - a group that didn't trust me I'd be liable to get punched in the face after the first time I mentioned an Orcish Medicine Man or something of the kind.

To be honest, I wouldn't actually do this at all. I'm not all that well versed in the culture of any of the Native American nations and I don't think I'd do it justice. But saying "No, don't do this" is dishonest. It's ludicrous to say you can base Orcs off any culture seen as Barbaric - Norse, Goths, Celts, Mongols, and so on - but say that they are sacrosanct.

The words "Barbaric" and "Barbarian" themselves were originally racist terms to refer to everyone that wasn't Greek, derived from how Greeks would make fun of how their foreign languages sounded. It had nothing to do with their behavior, but since all foreigners were demonized in general, it was implied that they were also all stupid, brutish, violent and scary as well as talking funny. The Romans and later civilizations of course also held this view.

So yeah, orcs are the incarnation of everything ancient Greek and Roman people used to believe about those scary uncultured foreigners. Their racist cultural imagination/nightmare come to life.

[RossN]

DO play to Orcish strengths. In most cases they are literally stronger and tougher than humans. They can live, even thrive in desolate areas humans can't. Maybe they are nearly immune to disease too, which might be why they are so numerous despite the infighting.

DON'T make them misunderstood Noble Savages. It has been painfully overdone and is every bit as simplistic as making them one dimensional evil monsters. If you must have sympathetic Orcs don't be afraid to give the local humans and demihumans legitimate reasons to dislike them aside from sheer prejudice - plenty of real life cultures have engaged in cattle raiding and slave raiding of their neighbours without being completely Chaotic Evil.

DON'T ignore Orcish weaknesses. In most game systems (certainly 5e D&D) Orcs have an intelligence penalty, a nasty alignment or both which is probably the main reason they don't rule the world already given they are individually stronger and tougher than humans. Orcs might be cunning raiders and warriors, but lack the foresight to build lasting empires.

[Talion]

Why is basing Orcish culture off Native American culture such a no-no? Because Orcs Is Bad? Orcs is Ugly? Orcs is Stupid? Isn't portraying them as Native Americans an effective way to sort of play off the cultural perception of the Native Americans, that they were seen as evil, often ugly, and almost invariably stupid and primitive? You have Orcish tribes and your players have to deal with them, but (assuming your players are the least bit thoughtful) when you cloak them in the raiment of, say, the Iroquois, your players might be more inclined to wonder if there's more going on than what they've been told by their Human employers.

Obviously you don't base them off Native Culture if you're going with Evil Orc Tribes. I wouldn't base Chaotic Evil Orc Tribes on much of anything, as that's pretty offensive. But if you're going sympathetic Orcs basing them off Native Tribes seems as legitimate a route as any. You've got materials for all sorts of interesting stories there. Yeah, at first blush it might seem kind of offensive and it's not a story route I would go with any old group - a group that didn't trust me I'd be liable to get punched in the face after the first time I mentioned an Orcish Medicine Man or something of the kind.

To be honest, I wouldn't actually do this at all. I'm not all that well versed in the culture of any of the Native American nations and I don't think I'd do it justice. But saying "No, don't do this" is dishonest. It's ludicrous to say you can base Orcs off any culture seen as Barbaric - Norse, Goths, Celts, Mongols, and so on - but say that they are sacrosanct.

The problem is functionally two fold. The first issue is an Orc's stats. Those penalties to both Intelligence and Charisma (if we go by 3.5 standards) don't speak kindly of any society. Rather than implying that that look at the world in a different light (or rather in different series of different lights depending on the tribe) they're accepted as outright stupid. Which pertains to their own society as well. That Intelligence penalty demonstrates they don't have as clear understanding of the world around them as anyone else. This includes understandings of the world that they themselves hold, which may be unique to them. There were a great many things that non-Natives did not understand about the American continents, every bit as much as the Natives did not understand about Europe. Simply put, under the existing system they have trouble learning anything, including knowledge that is specifically oriented towards themselves. This pressures them into the 'unenlightened barbarians' that both Orcs and Natives have been presented as. But that is only presentation, not necessarily truth.

Then of course their Charisma penalty means that, as a societal whole, they are less capable of, and thus less likely, to strike a deal or be personable. This, in direct contrast to the many hundreds of treaties the Native Americans signed with the Europeans (England, France, Canada, USA), which were generally broken or ignored by the Europeans. In many cases, this lead to bloodshed on both sides. In others, things were eventually worked out...after a some Natives died due to hunger or other conditions that should not have existed if the Europeans groups had bothered to enforce the treaties (as examples, see the Sandy Lake Tragedy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Lake_Tragedy) and Sand Creek Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre)). If Native America as a whole suffered from the same Charisma penalty as an Orc, it's fairly unlikely they would have tried to reach a social understanding of the Europeans. This may have lead to a very different history. For example, one potential outcome results in Native Americans killing every outsider who stepped on native soil on sight. As history tells us, this is usually the opposite of what happened.

The second issue, after the stat line up, is that it dehumanizes Native American culture. Since Natives are now Orcs, and not humans, they do not garner the same respect given humans (or elves...or dwarves). This allows players to ignore the social and political issues that they have gone through since European Contact and proceed to engage in another rousing round of Manifest Destiny, in which the now Native American themed Orcs are still slaughtered by the dozens by the average adventuring party. Functionally, it's a repeat and reskin of one of history's many darker moments. While there are some players who might take the bait and sympathize with the Orcs, their stats make any lasting improvement difficult. Most players, at least in my experience, won't get within earshot of an Orc without having explicit reason to kill it and every one of its associates.

Natives deserve to be run as Human, with the respect and dignity allotted to any other group, be it African, Asian, European, in any and all related sub-groups. Put another way: Why should Natives be Orcs, when every other human group is allowed to be Human?

Though, naturally, the above also applies to any and all other groups who would be placed in a related situation.

*Edit: Provided links to examples in text.

[Ralanr]

Do: Give them a reason to actually justify the way they act. No race should, "Kill for the sake of killing" That's an individual thing. Religion and culture usually justify this, sacrifices to gods or achieving honor through ears of the enemy are examples. Point is if you are going to make them the stereotypical, "Rampaging monster gang" provide reasons as to why they do this.

Do: Actually allow for them to eat more than just meat. Let them gather berries for emergencies, eat bread for energy. Don't just make them all "MEAT MEAT HUMAN MEAT"

Don't: Make them stupid. They can be less intelligent than your "civilized" person, less experienced with things outside of their culture. They should find those things odd, it's not something they see everyday. But don't make it so they can't learn or notice patterns.

Do: Keep axes. Axes are awesome.

[Florian]

DO kill them.
DON'T spare them.

Ok, a bit more serious:

DO:
Let them be inhuman and alien. Let them be destroyers. Let them strive on rampagne, blood and violence. Do let them be natural forces of destruction with no regard to the actual conquest.

DON'T:
Do not humanize them. Do not to try and find explanations based on our history, society and culture. Do not make them green-skinned humans.

[woodlandkammao]

Do: Give them Moar Dakka.

[RossN]

Don't: Make them stupid. They can be less intelligent than your "civilized" person, less experienced with things outside of their culture. They should find those things odd, it's not something they see everyday. But don't make it so they can't learn or notice patterns.

This is where I have to disagree.

Orcs shouldn't be cartoonishly stupid (well, outside of Warhammer) but if they are as smart as 'barbarian' humans... how are those barbarian humans still alive? Or any humans at all? Orcs are physically superior to a degree no real life human civilisation was over another and if they are mentally equal they'll easily outcompete the local humans long before humans ever make it to civilisation.

Intelligence isn't simply about "civilisation", it is about knowing the time of the year the herds migrate, the salmon spawn in the local river and the fruit appears on the trees. Pre-literate humans use learned knowledge and reasoning a lot.

[Ralanr]

This is where I have to disagree.

Orcs shouldn't be cartoonishly stupid (well, outside of Warhammer) but if they are as smart as 'barbarian' humans... how are those barbarian humans still alive? Or any humans at all? Orcs are physically superior to a degree no real life human civilisation was over another and if they are mentally equal they'll easily outcompete the local humans long before humans ever make it to civilisation.

Intelligence isn't simply about "civilisation", it is about knowing the time of the year the herds migrate, the salmon spawn in the local river and the fruit appears on the trees. Pre-literate humans use learned knowledge and reasoning a lot.

Honestly I have trouble seeing different races as different species. Though you could argue that they function like Neanderthals. They could also not notice pain as easily (which could justify their abilities revolving around fighting when suppose to be dead) which would mean they couldn't notice danger as easily and thus get killed more often.

[Florian]

Honestly I have trouble seeing different races as different species. Though you could argue that they function like Neanderthals. They could also not notice pain as easily (which could justify their abilities revolving around fighting when suppose to be dead) which would mean they couldn't notice danger as easily and thus get killed more often.

Consider this:

We can observe a myriad of animal life around us and see the differences between species. Take a look at the discussions based on the observation. They're often far away from reaching a consens. That somply should tell us that we're not able to understand these differences.

Now, when there's talk about other intelligent species, especially multiple at the same time, why do we automatically accept that they are somehow like us, just a little bit differemt. when we don't even understand what our pets really want from us?

Really, WH40k orcs are perfect because of showing that difference right there.

[VoxRationis]

This is where I have to disagree.

Orcs shouldn't be cartoonishly stupid (well, outside of Warhammer) but if they are as smart as 'barbarian' humans... how are those barbarian humans still alive? Or any humans at all? Orcs are physically superior to a degree no real life human civilisation was over another and if they are mentally equal they'll easily outcompete the local humans long before humans ever make it to civilisation.


This provides an interesting rationale for why you might make orcs in your setting the equivalents of any non-agricultural human society from history: there were once [X non-agricultural society] versions of humans, but were outcompeted/destroyed by orcs in that niche, leaving only the orcs, who show the influences of X society from cultural interchange during the period of coexistence. Thus, the "Goth orcs" or "Native American orcs" aren't really Goths or Native Americans or what have you, but are orcs practicing a culture influenced by those cultures before orcish physical superiority allowed them to gain supremacy in warfare.

That said, I am inclined to agree with you on the intellectual requirements of pre-agricultural societies. Anything that hinders innovation will have a deleterious impact on long-term survivability—just ask the Neanderthals.*

*While it is likely that interbreeding occurred between Neanderthals and AMH populations, the fact that modern humans have only a slight amount of Neanderthal DNA (if any) would indicate that it wasn't a symmetrical coming together of populations, but rather the absorption of the remaining Neanderthal populations by an overall more-successful subspecies.

[LudicSavant]

This is where I have to disagree.

Orcs shouldn't be cartoonishly stupid (well, outside of Warhammer) but if they are as smart as 'barbarian' humans... how are those barbarian humans still alive? Or any humans at all? Orcs are physically superior to a degree no real life human civilisation was over another and if they are mentally equal they'll easily outcompete the local humans long before humans ever make it to civilisation.

Intelligence isn't simply about "civilisation", it is about knowing the time of the year the herds migrate, the salmon spawn in the local river and the fruit appears on the trees. Pre-literate humans use learned knowledge and reasoning a lot.

Are Orks even dumber than humans in Warhammer? Warhammer humans are pretty dumb.

[Florian]

Are Orks even dumber than humans in Warhammer? Warhammer humans are pretty dumb.

Who cares about dumb? Both species survive, multiplay and expand. That is being successful.
Stop caring about individual members when considering the species as a whole.

[BRC]

I once played in a campaign where I ended up designing Orcish culture from the ground-up in a way I thought was pretty cool.

Basically, Orcish Cultural norms originated from a place of deep mistrust. Heavily-armed clans wandering around, occasionally interacting with each other, never trusting each other.

If you were meeting with another Clan, you came prepared to defend yourself in case of treachery. If the other clan was especially strong, you took more and more precautions, you attempted to make yourself seem as dangerous as possible in order to discourage the other clan from seeing you as a weak target of opportunity. An Orcish Chief (or "Kha") would bring their most fearsome warriors, with their biggest weapons and toughest armor. They would bring a Poet*, who would sing the deeds of each warrior in turn. The stronger the opposing clan was (Read: The LESS you wanted to fight them), the MORE effort you would put into this theater, as the purpose was primarily to discourage treachery.

Eventually, it came about that, in Orcish society, you show respect by showing Strength, rather than Deference. While a Human, addressing a social superior, might show up unarmed and alone, wearing their finest clothes and bowing their head, Orcs would view this as an insult. To greet another Orc, especially a stranger or social superior, alone and unarmed was to say "I believe you are so weak that, were you to attack me, I could defend myself alone with no weapons." To not swagger, threaten, and brag over the course of a meeting was to say " You are so far below me that I do not need to discourage you from attacking."
Now, the AMOUNT of strength you showed was less important than the effort you put into it. Violence rarely actually broke out. A common Orc could never hope to muster enough strength to threaten a mighty Warlord, but if he was to meet with said warlord, he would get all the friends he could, equipped as well as he could, and present all the strength he could muster in order to avoid offending the host.

This trickled-down to common, less-formal interactions. For anybody except close friends and family (especially as Orcs moved to cities and away from the nomadic-clan lifestyle) you wore your weapons openly, you never looked away from somebody you were talking to (that would give them a chance to strike), you stood tall and proud and worked threats and boasts into your conversation. To do otherwise would be rude.

Now, among Orcs, all this was understood. It was an ingrained part of their culture. The more somebody looked like they were trying to show off, the less they wanted to fight you, and the more they respected you. But, this led to problems when interacting with Humans and other cultures.
The Humans would send a small, unarmed delegation who would arrive under a flag of truce. The Orcs would bring a mighty warband, and the Chief would act like he was always seconds away from ripping the human's heads off.
even if both sides were aware of how the other operated on a conscious level, any interaction would be subconsciously poisoned. The Humans would feel like Orcs were brutish savages who respect nothing but violence, and the Orcs would feel that the Humans were arrogant and too proud to show proper respect.



* This type of Poetry, describing the skills and deeds of a warrior so as to make them seem badass, was known as Orcish Beat Poetry, and was highly regarded in Orcish society. In addition to feats of strength, Orcish Festivals frequently featured Poetry competitions, in which competitors would compose poems about the judges, who would then select whichever Poem made them sound better.

[Ralanr]

I once played in a campaign where I ended up designing Orcish culture from the ground-up in a way I thought was pretty cool.

Basically, Orcish Cultural norms originated from a place of deep mistrust. Heavily-armed clans wandering around, occasionally interacting with each other, never trusting each other.

If you were meeting with another Clan, you came prepared to defend yourself in case of treachery. If the other clan was especially strong, you took more and more precautions, you attempted to make yourself seem as dangerous as possible in order to discourage the other clan from seeing you as a weak target of opportunity. An Orcish Chief (or "Kha") would bring their most fearsome warriors, with their biggest weapons and toughest armor. They would bring a Poet*, who would sing the deeds of each warrior in turn. The stronger the opposing clan was (Read: The LESS you wanted to fight them), the MORE effort you would put into this theater, as the purpose was primarily to discourage treachery.

Eventually, it came about that, in Orcish society, you show respect by showing Strength, rather than Deference. While a Human, addressing a social superior, might show up unarmed and alone, wearing their finest clothes and bowing their head, Orcs would view this as an insult. To greet another Orc, especially a stranger or social superior, alone and unarmed was to say "I believe you are so weak that, were you to attack me, I could defend myself alone with no weapons." To not swagger, threaten, and brag over the course of a meeting was to say " You are so far below me that I do not need to discourage you from attacking."
Now, the AMOUNT of strength you showed was less important than the effort you put into it. Violence rarely actually broke out. A common Orc could never hope to muster enough strength to threaten a mighty Warlord, but if he was to meet with said warlord, he would get all the friends he could, equipped as well as he could, and present all the strength he could muster in order to avoid offending the host.

This trickled-down to common, less-formal interactions. For anybody except close friends and family (especially as Orcs moved to cities and away from the nomadic-clan lifestyle) you wore your weapons openly, you never looked away from somebody you were talking to (that would give them a chance to strike), you stood tall and proud and worked threats and boasts into your conversation. To do otherwise would be rude.

Now, among Orcs, all this was understood. It was an ingrained part of their culture. The more somebody looked like they were trying to show off, the less they wanted to fight you, and the more they respected you. But, this led to problems when interacting with Humans and other cultures.
The Humans would send a small, unarmed delegation who would arrive under a flag of truce. The Orcs would bring a mighty warband, and the Chief would act like he was always seconds away from ripping the human's heads off.
even if both sides were aware of how the other operated on a conscious level, any interaction would be subconsciously poisoned. The Humans would feel like Orcs were brutish savages who respect nothing but violence, and the Orcs would feel that the Humans were arrogant and too proud to show proper respect.



* This type of Poetry, describing the skills and deeds of a warrior so as to make them seem badass, was known as Orcish Beat Poetry, and was highly regarded in Orcish society. In addition to feats of strength, Orcish Festivals frequently featured Poetry competitions, in which competitors would compose poems about the judges, who would then select whichever Poem made them sound better.

(On a phone so I can't snip this)

This feels like how the shadow of Mordor Orcs function/are supposed to function.

This is cool.

[BRC]

(On a phone so I can't snip this)

This feels like how the shadow of Mordor Orcs function/are supposed to function.

This is cool.

Not quite. From what I recall in Shadow of Mordor, the Orcs actually DID regularly fight and kill each other.

With the Orcs I described above, serious violence was actually pretty rare. (Brawls were common, but those tended to end with all involved parties holding no grudges). To an outsider, it LOOKED like Orcs were constantly about to tear each other apart, giving the impression of a society plagued by constant murderous violence, when really it was just a lot of polite posturing.

Which brings us back to the original question. Do make Orcs actually function as a society. You can't run a civilization off constant warfare and raiding. If everybody is bloodthirsty and prone to violence, why are they not just killing each other, which is not a sustainable model for a race to survive.

[Ralanr]

Not quite. From what I recall in Shadow of Mordor, the Orcs actually DID regularly fight and kill each other.

With the Orcs I described above, serious violence was actually pretty rare. (Brawls were common, but those tended to end with all involved parties holding no grudges). To an outsider, it LOOKED like Orcs were constantly about to tear each other apart, giving the impression of a society plagued by constant murderous violence, when really it was just a lot of polite posturing.

Which brings us back to the original question. Do make Orcs actually function as a society. You can't run a civilization off constant warfare and raiding. If everybody is bloodthirsty and prone to violence, why are they not just killing each other, which is not a sustainable model for a race to survive.

I just got Ratbag's impression from your description. Though I may be remembering it wrong. From your description though, it seems possible they can function as a society...until someone decides to call out BS. Then all hell breaks loose.

[irondude]

DO make them monsters
DO make them loathable
DO make them a menace
Do make them despicable, feared and hated for a reason
DO make them ignorant, self centered, and closed to other cultures
DO make them irreasonable and hard to bargain with
DO make their gods bloodthirsty
DO make them ignorant, rapacious, and aggresive.
DO treat them like Orcs

DONT forget they got have their own values (for instance, they might not be above eating other humanoids, but they might cringe on the thought of eating other orcs, even those they killed).
DONT treat all of them the same - Tribe A might be stereotypical, tribe B might be different.
DONT make them gullible-orcs do have a penalty on mental values because they think might makes right - which means they'll rarely fall for your diplomacy or bluff skill, and so they will rarely even listen to what you have to say.
DONT make orc females victims - somebody already said this, but it bears repeating. You could make their society male dominant, but respect any female that demonstrates warrior potential, and killing anyone that attempts any sort of abuse not only tolerable but expected and admired.
DON'T make their outcasts misunderstood good people, at least not necesarily. Their outcasts could have done a crimes like eating other orcs, killing children, selling maps to the drow, or simply being family of defeated leaders.

For me Orcs are meant to be both monsters AND people.

[Admiral Squish]

I see a lot of 'don't make orcs native american expys'. But I can't help but think aztec orcs and inuit orcs seem to have a lot of potential.

[irondude]

Right from Mexico City I say yes, Aztec Orcs would make perfect sense

[irondude]

Native American Orcs worked on World of Warcraft. I daresay, worked TOO well even - at this point, the war between the Alliance and the horde doesn't even make sense.

[Ralanr]

Native American Orcs worked on World of Warcraft. I daresay, worked TOO well even - at this point, the war between the Alliance and the horde doesn't even make sense.

Eh...Taurin are more Native American. Orcs feel more african.


I see a lot of 'don't make orcs native american expys'. But I can't help but think aztec orcs and inuit orcs seem to have a lot of potential.

Mind if I steal this? I'm already imagining an Orc with a Maquahuitl.

Would actually be interesting if an ancient orc civilization was based on Aztec culture actually.

Edit: I am redundant sometimes.

[Hawkstar]

DONT make orc females victims - somebody already said this, but it bears repeating. You could make their society male dominant, but respect any female that demonstrates warrior potential, and killing anyone that attempts any sort of abuse not only tolerable but expected and admired.Eh... you're still treating Orc women through the eyes and minds of men. My post on the issue was about not giving Orc women a victim mentality, and make them understand and champion their role in orc society. They still have a gender-segregated culture, but one both genders accept - It's the women's duty to be breeding stock (at its most basic), just as it's the male's duty to be cannon-fodder. (One notable difference would be a complete inversion of 'slut-shaming'.)



Native American Orcs worked on World of Warcraft. I daresay, worked TOO well even - at this point, the war between the Alliance and the horde doesn't even make sense.It's the super-cool Tauren that are Native Americans in WoW.

Yeah... it really should have ended when the Orcs left the Eastern Kingdoms (Formerly the Continent of Azeroth). Then again... they DID become enemies of the Night Elves at that point (Orcs are Alien Invaders)... well, now the war is fought because of the assorted alliances than Orc vs. Human.

Dammit, we really need a new Warcraft RTS, WITHOUT a big unifying threat to distract the warring factions.

[veti]

But they're no more 'low level grunts' than elves or humans are... Orcs have class levels too, and their culture is designed around making lots of mooks then advancing them as quickly as possible.

Unless your plan includes "elevating every orc to level 10 or higher", then you're still creating low-level grunts. The fact that they have potential to advance doesn't help, unless they actually get off their backsides and do it, which by nature is never going to account for more than a small fraction of them. (And there's a good chance that much of that small fraction will rebel against their Creator anyway, so that's no help.)

And you've made these LLGs visually distinct from elves and humans, meaning that elves and humans know exactly what they are when they meet them, and in many cases feel fine about killing them on sight. So the elves and humans who are opposed to orcdom get stronger.

Why not just employ humans to do your dirty work? That's what every insane conqueror in the history of the world has done, and in many cases it's worked out fine for them. Creating another species to do it - is just pointless complication at best, actively counterproductive at worst.

[Hawkstar]

Unless your plan includes "elevating every orc to level 10 or higher", then you're still creating low-level grunts. The fact that they have potential to advance doesn't help, unless they actually get off their backsides and do it, which by nature is never going to account for more than a small fraction of them. (And there's a good chance that much of that small fraction will rebel against their Creator anyway, so that's no help.)They don't rebel. And they are motivated to get off their backsides to do it by Gruumsh's divine command and the structure of their culture. And - his low-level grunts are better at bashing skulls in than his competitors. He's still bound by race creation rules that all other deities are bound by - you don't get to make a 50 pt. race when the rules agreed upon by all gods say only 25 points for a new race. As far as "Why melee mooks instead of arcane gods?" - He has a clear picture of the culture he wants to rule over, and arcane gods don't really fit into it, even if it's "easier".


And you've made these LLGs visually distinct from elves and humans, meaning that elves and humans know exactly what they are when they meet them, and in many cases feel fine about killing them on sight. So the elves and humans who are opposed to orcdom get stronger.The greater the foe, the greater the challenge!


Why not just employ humans to do your dirty work? That's what every insane conqueror in the history of the world has done, and in many cases it's worked out fine for them. Creating another species to do it - is just pointless complication at best, actively counterproductive at worst.Because using common humans is unambitious and boring. Gruumsh is doing things his way - His people, his culture, his world. Anything less is failure. What's the point of ruling a world if you don't get to forge it into your own image? He will not let the chains of pragmatism cloud his vision! Do it right, or not at all!

[NovenFromTheSun]

Do: Actually allow for them to eat more than just meat. Let them gather berries for emergencies, eat bread for energy. Don't just make them all "MEAT MEAT HUMAN MEAT"


"DO remember trophic levels" is advice that could go to any race, really.

I dislike using fantasy races to represent real life ethnicities; but I might tolerate it more in a world where humans didn't represent white people for once.

[Ralanr]

"DO remember trophic levels" is advice that could go to any race, really.

I dislike using fantasy races to represent real life ethnicities; but I might tolerate it more in a world where humans didn't represent white people for once.

Oh yeah. Every human is a British white guy unless they aren't.

[Florian]

"DO remember trophic levels" is advice that could go to any race, really.

I dislike using fantasy races to represent real life ethnicities; but I might tolerate it more in a world where humans didn't represent white people for once.

I think it is ok under one condition: No humanocentric setting.

[Kitten Champion]

It seems to be inevitable that the Orcs are going to be the Other from whatever concept of Civilization your setting has, whether it's Western European or something else. The difference seems to be whether that's considered noble or not.

Can Orcs work within the conceptual box of Civilization?

[Hawkstar]

Do: Actually allow for them to eat more than just meat. Let them gather berries for emergencies, eat bread for energy. Don't just make them all "MEAT MEAT HUMAN MEAT"
Why do they have to be omnivores?

[Lord Raziere]

Do: make them people.

Don't: make them all monsters.

Do: make them varied and full of groups who disagree with each other, some more extreme than others

Don't: make them all the same

[Grim Portent]

Why do they have to be omnivores?

It makes more sense for a large population of creatures (which is needed for Orcs to be a Horde species) to be herbivores or omnivores. Carnivores can't sustain large populations very easily due to the whole trophic levels thing.

A diet of meat from hunted and herded animals, fish and seasonal vegetation supplemented by food gained from raiding makes for a more believable race than if they just eat everything fleshy they encounter like a swarm of Tyranids.

[Corsair]

The problem is functionally two fold. The first issue is an Orc's stats. Those penalties to both Intelligence and Charisma (if we go by 3.5 standards) don't speak kindly of any society. Rather than implying that that look at the world in a different light (or rather in different series of different lights depending on the tribe) they're accepted as outright stupid. Which pertains to their own society as well. That Intelligence penalty demonstrates they don't have as clear understanding of the world around them as anyone else. This includes understandings of the world that they themselves hold, which may be unique to them. There were a great many things that non-Natives did not understand about the American continents, every bit as much as the Natives did not understand about Europe. Simply put, under the existing system they have trouble learning anything, including knowledge that is specifically oriented towards themselves. This pressures them into the 'unenlightened barbarians' that both Orcs and Natives have been presented as. But that is only presentation, not necessarily truth.

Then of course their Charisma penalty means that, as a societal whole, they are less capable of, and thus less likely, to strike a deal or be personable. This, in direct contrast to the many hundreds of treaties the Native Americans signed with the Europeans (England, France, Canada, USA), which were generally broken or ignored by the Europeans. In many cases, this lead to bloodshed on both sides. In others, things were eventually worked out...after a some Natives died due to hunger or other conditions that should not have existed if the Europeans groups had bothered to enforce the treaties (as examples, see the Sandy Lake Tragedy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Lake_Tragedy) and Sand Creek Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre)). If Native America as a whole suffered from the same Charisma penalty as an Orc, it's fairly unlikely they would have tried to reach a social understanding of the Europeans. This may have lead to a very different history. For example, one potential outcome results in Native Americans killing every outsider who stepped on native soil on sight. As history tells us, this is usually the opposite of what happened.

The second issue, after the stat line up, is that it dehumanizes Native American culture. Since Natives are now Orcs, and not humans, they do not garner the same respect given humans (or elves...or dwarves). This allows players to ignore the social and political issues that they have gone through since European Contact and proceed to engage in another rousing round of Manifest Destiny, in which the now Native American themed Orcs are still slaughtered by the dozens by the average adventuring party. Functionally, it's a repeat and reskin of one of history's many darker moments. While there are some players who might take the bait and sympathize with the Orcs, their stats make any lasting improvement difficult. Most players, at least in my experience, won't get within earshot of an Orc without having explicit reason to kill it and every one of its associates.

Natives deserve to be run as Human, with the respect and dignity allotted to any other group, be it African, Asian, European, in any and all related sub-groups. Put another way: Why should Natives be Orcs, when every other human group is allowed to be Human?

Though, naturally, the above also applies to any and all other groups who would be placed in a related situation.

*Edit: Provided links to examples in text.

The statistical part I hadn't considered, and if I did do this the Orcs would probably have their stats heavily altered. Regarding the other factors...I don't agree. It's not uncommon to base Dwarven culture off a grab bag of Scottish, Norse, Mesopotamian, and Jewish culture. I'm not saying you take the Cherokee or Mohawks or any Native tribe and make them dudes with big teeth and green skin, but borrowing cultural elements from the Native Americans seems no more inherently offensive than borrowing elements from the Norse or Jews. In this circumstance I think I'd probably go for a combination of Apaches and Celts, with some Gaulic influence - Vercingetorix has a kind of Orky sound to it.

Again, I would not run this with a generic pick up group, I'd want to run this with a fairly thoughtful crowd - i.e., people who don't play Murderhobo.

Thinking about this further - I think I'd have their stats be the same as Human in this plot idea, literally identical, but Humans would talk about them like they were typical D&D Orcs - strong, but ugly and stupid. Basically the standard fantasy orc would be the racist caricature of them. Maybe even go as far as having them be just an offshoot of Humans that has been dehumanized to the point that most Humans believe that they are an entirely different species.

[VoxRationis]

It makes more sense for a large population of creatures (which is needed for Orcs to be a Horde species) to be herbivores or omnivores. Carnivores can't sustain large populations very easily due to the whole trophic levels thing.

A diet of meat from hunted and herded animals, fish and seasonal vegetation supplemented by food gained from raiding makes for a more believable race than if they just eat everything fleshy they encounter like a swarm of Tyranids.

It would explain why orcs are so persistent in invading other lands if their reproductive rate frequently outstripped their local food supplies. The dangerous-but-unorganized hordes could be easily explained as a sort of aggressive refugee movement.
Furthermore, remember that the "horde" might not be as large as all that, depending on your orcs. High mobility or superior concentration of force can give the illusion of a larger group; if 10,000 orcs come down from their territories through a single pass, the force will look overwhelming to local garrisons, even if the total military strength of the human land they're ravaging is ten times that number.

[Grim Portent]

It would explain why orcs are so persistent in invading other lands if their reproductive rate frequently outstripped their local food supplies. The dangerous-but-unorganized hordes could be easily explained as a sort of aggressive refugee movement.

The problem with that is that the process of them outstripping their food supply would completely destroy their local ecosystem since it would involve eating all large animals native to their lands (there's a few examples of this happening in real life) and result in them being unable to repopulate properly when they starve to death or die in wars due to an absence of prey species.

If animals make up a portion of their diet they can sustain themselves better when food becomes scarce and they decide to emigrate elsewhere. Tubers, edible grasses, nuts and so on keep far better than preserved meat does during seasons when food is scarce and are less dangerous to gather for groups that have no healthy youngsters to gather food, such as elderly, pregnant or juvenile individuals left behind when the battle ready males and females have gone off to raid and conquer, meaning that if the healthy ones don't come back after being filled with arrows by the nearby elves/decapitated by dwarves/run down by human cavalry the scraps of their people left behind can scrape a living from the soil and nurse their resentment for a few generations, in the meantime the low orc population would let the other animals repopulate, assuming orcs are the only major predator around.

[Segev]

Now, among Orcs, all this was understood. It was an ingrained part of their culture. The more somebody looked like they were trying to show off, the less they wanted to fight you, and the more they respected you. But, this led to problems when interacting with Humans and other cultures.
The Humans would send a small, unarmed delegation who would arrive under a flag of truce. The Orcs would bring a mighty warband, and the Chief would act like he was always seconds away from ripping the human's heads off.
even if both sides were aware of how the other operated on a conscious level, any interaction would be subconsciously poisoned. The Humans would feel like Orcs were brutish savages who respect nothing but violence, and the Orcs would feel that the Humans were arrogant and too proud to show proper respect.

You know, this could lead to other, interesting interactions.

An orc chieftan, out to prove just how little he respects these pathetic humans, finds himself amazingly honored by the enormous efforts to which they went to impress him with their strength. The human king, wanting to cow the orcs into submission and hoping to provoke them to a declaration of war so he wouldn't look like he "started" it to his neighboring kingdoms (who he hoped would side with him in the war), was amazed by the civility of the orc chieftan.

This leads to a much more pleasant interaction than either side expected, and despite both of their expectations, the leaders of each side are amazed to have walked away with the beginnings of détente.

[Ralanr]

You know, this could lead to other, interesting interactions.

An orc chieftan, out to prove just how little he respects these pathetic humans, finds himself amazingly honored by the enormous efforts to which they went to impress him with their strength. The human king, wanting to cow the orcs into submission and hoping to provoke them to a declaration of war so he wouldn't look like he "started" it to his neighboring kingdoms (who he hoped would side with him in the war), was amazed by the civility of the orc chieftan.

This leads to a much more pleasant interaction than either side expected, and despite both of their expectations, the leaders of each side are amazed to have walked away with the beginnings of détente.

This sounds hilarious in action.

[BRC]

You know, this could lead to other, interesting interactions.

An orc chieftan, out to prove just how little he respects these pathetic humans, finds himself amazingly honored by the enormous efforts to which they went to impress him with their strength. The human king, wanting to cow the orcs into submission and hoping to provoke them to a declaration of war so he wouldn't look like he "started" it to his neighboring kingdoms (who he hoped would side with him in the war), was amazed by the civility of the orc chieftan.

This leads to a much more pleasant interaction than either side expected, and despite both of their expectations, the leaders of each side are amazed to have walked away with the beginnings of détente.

The real question is, what happens at the next meeting. Now that both sides respect each other, they're both going to try to be Polite.

Unless both sides just double down on the next meeting. The King brought his bodyguards before, now he's bringing an entire cohort of knights, and he refuses to get off his horse for the entire meeting. The Chieftain meanwhile makes a big show of handing his weapons off to the guards and wears a big flowing robe that is totally impractical for a fight.

[VoxRationis]

The problem with that is that the process of them outstripping their food supply would completely destroy their local ecosystem since it would involve eating all large animals native to their lands (there's a few examples of this happening in real life) and result in them being unable to repopulate properly when they starve to death or die in wars due to an absence of prey species.


I'm failing to see the problem with that. It's why they come from wastelands (it's a wasteland after they get through with it) and it's why they are so determined to invade. They destroy the local ecosystem and move to a different local ecosystem just before total starvation ensues. It's not a great game plan, but orcs aren't necessarily very smart.

[Grim Portent]

I'm failing to see the problem with that. It's why they come from wastelands (it's a wasteland after they get through with it) and it's why they are so determined to invade. They destroy the local ecosystem and move to a different local ecosystem just before total starvation ensues. It's not a great game plan, but orcs aren't necessarily very smart.

The first time they fail to conquer new lands would basically result in their extinction, making them a one off threat rather than a recurring one.

[Hawkstar]

The first time they fail to conquer new lands would basically result in their extinction, making them a one off threat rather than a recurring one.
Not really. They just splinter into more more managable numbers rhroughout non-wastelands and hang out in dungeons to raid more local areas.

[Ralanr]

The real question is, what happens at the next meeting. Now that both sides respect each other, they're both going to try to be Polite.

Unless both sides just double down on the next meeting. The King brought his bodyguards before, now he's bringing an entire cohort of knights, and he refuses to get off his horse for the entire meeting. The Chieftain meanwhile makes a big show of handing his weapons off to the guards and wears a big flowing robe that is totally impractical for a fight.

Is no one else finding this scene hilarious?!

[NovenFromTheSun]

I agree. BRC's idea is realy cool and could lead to a lot of funny situations like that.

EDIT: Guys, I've got it!

In the Fall of every tenth year, the orcs come. They raid the towns and cities for people to kill, but never steal any supplies; and all the while they hurl vicious insults with a surprising grasp of their victims language. Yet rarely do they kill everyone in a single settlement, even when it would be easy to; and when they capture someone to torture, the victim almost always lives and eventually recovers.

Eventually their victims manage to halt the invasion and greatly reduce the orcs' numbers. With minds filled with revenge, the past victims go out to the orc homes to finish them off. The people of the surrounding lands hear of their victory, and breath easier knowing there's one less threat.

But the orcs always reemerge, this time bearing the weapons and armor of the soldiers sent to slaughter them. This has happened even when multiple eye witnesses confirm that said soldiers lived and succeeded. But if anyone who knew the names of the soldiers listened to the orcs talk amongst themselves, they'd soon recognized they names the orcs call eachother....

[Grim Portent]

Not really. They just splinter into more more managable numbers rhroughout non-wastelands and hang out in dungeons to raid more local areas.

But then you've lost the main distinguishing point between them and the other two dozen small scale bandit races, if there's no Horde (or Sauronesque Dark Lords army) then why bother with orcs when gnolls, or goblins, or sahuagin, or human bandits etc can fill the same role just as well?

[Wardog]

Eh...Taurin are more Native American. Orcs feel more african.


I thought they seemed more like Huns. (Not as much as the Centaurs though).


Anyway, thinking about Talion's post about why Orcs = Native Americans is bad on multiple levels:

What about doing the reverse: Orcs are the colonizers. They turn up. Then more of them turn up. And more. And more. And they come first to plunder, then to settle, without caring who was there first. And disease follows them (and sweeps ahead of them). They care nothing for the environment, having to push on after they have exhausted the land. Throw in some "Manifest Destiny" type ideology to that makes them think it is entierly natural and good for them to sweep away everyone in their path.

To be a really accurate analogy they would need a technological advantage, which doesn't fit the typical portrayal of orcs, but isn't unprecidented (and in fact goes all the way back to The Hobbit).

[Florian]

I'm working on a setting for my next campaign, where people commonly call Orcs "Ghouls" because they don't know better, based on the association with eating the dead.

In this setting, Orcs are part of a bioweapon experiment gone bonkers.
There're hives, with workers, queen an all that, pretty much able to sustain themselves, and the orcs being the mind- and genderless attack and assault drones of those hives.
During summer, Orcs start to swarm. They don't need to coordonate or communicate,mas they're connected by a low-level hive mind. By assaulting and eating their enemies, they fullfil the hives goal of sampling as much DNA as possible, maybe even copying brains/personality of the victims, to grow stronger Orc drones every year.
Now, this bioweapon is flawed bevause the individual Orcs absorbing the DNA and possible personality evolve by doing that and slowly stop being mindless, slipping out of the hive mind, believing to be a non-Orc person.

[Hawkstar]

I thought they seemed more like Huns. (Not as much as the Centaurs though).


Anyway, thinking about Talion's post about why Orcs = Native Americans is bad on multiple levels:

What about doing the reverse: Orcs are the colonizers. They turn up. Then more of them turn up. And more. And more. And they come first to plunder, then to settle, without caring who was there first. And disease follows them (and sweeps ahead of them). They care nothing for the environment, having to push on after they have exhausted the land. Throw in some "Manifest Destiny" type ideology to that makes them think it is entierly natural and good for them to sweep away everyone in their path.

To be a really accurate analogy they would need a technological advantage, which doesn't fit the typical portrayal of orcs, but isn't unprecidented (and in fact goes all the way back to The Hobbit).

Then what do you do about the 'innocent' noncombatant colonist orcs who fuel the conquest?

[Ralanr]

I thought they seemed more like Huns. (Not as much as the Centaurs though).

To be a really accurate analogy they would need a technological advantage, which doesn't fit the typical portrayal of orcs, but isn't unprecidented (and in fact goes all the way back to The Hobbit).

Didn't Tolkien regret not expanding/giving the orcs a culture beyond raiding?

Really I only consider them African when I look at their ways of building and their wild life. It's not the best way of looking at it, since this makes me think Night Elves are Japanese.

[FabulousFizban]

The words "Barbaric" and "Barbarian" themselves were originally racist terms to refer to everyone that wasn't Greek, derived from how Greeks would make fun of how their foreign languages sounded. It had nothing to do with their behavior, but since all foreigners were demonized in general, it was implied that they were also all stupid, brutish, violent and scary as well as talking funny. The Romans and later civilizations of course also held this view.

So yeah, orcs are the incarnation of everything ancient Greek and Roman people used to believe about those scary uncultured foreigners. Their racist cultural imagination/nightmare come to life.

which is why I model my orcs after the Scythians. Nomadic raiders, drink the blood of their enemies, sew scalps into their cloaks, poisoned arrows, drug fueled rituals, ritual sacrifice of honored elders, what more do you want?

I keep the exquisite craftsmanship and sexual equality too, orcs deserve good things as well as terrifying things.

One thing I keep that nobody can ever make sense of is the sun worship, but it makes sense to me. In a culture that worships strength, why wouldn't orcs worship (or at least try to appease) the one enemy they can never defeat?

EDIT: Also, orc barbarians on armored horses? I'D run the **** away.

[Talion]

I thought they seemed more like Huns. (Not as much as the Centaurs though).


Anyway, thinking about Talion's post about why Orcs = Native Americans is bad on multiple levels:

What about doing the reverse: Orcs are the colonizers. They turn up. Then more of them turn up. And more. And more. And they come first to plunder, then to settle, without caring who was there first. And disease follows them (and sweeps ahead of them). They care nothing for the environment, having to push on after they have exhausted the land. Throw in some "Manifest Destiny" type ideology to that makes them think it is entierly natural and good for them to sweep away everyone in their path.

To be a really accurate analogy they would need a technological advantage, which doesn't fit the typical portrayal of orcs, but isn't unprecidented (and in fact goes all the way back to The Hobbit).

That could be interesting (naturally assuming we're not picking exclusively on the English or the French or the Spanish or whoever). It's in line with the usual orcish style of violence and conquest, but it still opens up some new avenues. For example, their ability to colonize through conquest means they might look into short term solutions such as treaties, which are rendered moot when convenient. It also implies a level of advancement on many fronts that separates them from the usual mindless orc marauders. In this instance, most of what they're doing is no worse than what any other group does to its rivals. It's just that they're winning this time.

From a 3.5 perspective, they're not well attuned for Wizardry or Sorcery. It's not impossible, but it's definitely difficult. But they're neutral on Wisdom, which opens them up for Divine spells through Paladins, Rangers, and Clerics. Which reinforces that "Manifest Destiny" ideology as well as opening the option to have their rivals convert to the Orcish religion(s) in exchange for a variety of benefits. They're also still excellent Fighters and Barbarians, which is just fine and dandy for exploring and conquering frontier and border territories.

The good news is that they wouldn't have to invent the technology themselves. They would just have to have enough advantages, and time, to accrue meaningfully more advanced technology than the people they hope to conquer, while using their brute force and sheer numbers to keep their own more advanced rivals at bay. This sets them up at an interesting position in which they have a great deal of natural resources thanks to their conquests, which are traded for more advanced technology that they could eventually build themselves at the same or reduced quality. By extension, this means there's at least one other major group that is not their enemy. It could be something unusual, such as an Elf/Orc team up for sheer shock value, or perhaps a Dwarf/Orc team up by playing on their mutual dislike of Elves and inclination towards the efficiency. Maybe something else altogether, such as a team up with Gnomes, who in my experience don't have a lot going on to begin with besides being 'weird' and 'tinkers'. Which, coincidentally, very nicely ties in with the Orcs technological needs. Humans could be played on both sides, as well as a fully neutral side and a side that sticks with whoever is winning at the time.

However, this also doesn't mean that all the Orcs have to necessarily get along either. While the new colonies and frontier areas are ripe for conquest, they need a lot of work put into them to become profitable, and taking the already worked and built up territories from other orcs is still a viable option, especially if there are particularly juicy targets such as a favorable deep water port or a well known mining site. This deepens the political waters of the campaign and gives the non-colony groups, whoever they are, their own ace in the hole, on top of any foreign allies. Similarly, it could end up in a situation like the United States and Britain, in which the colonizing Orcs no longer wish to be under the rule of the original orcish empire and start up a rebellion of their own.

[VoxRationis]

From a 3.5 perspective, they're not well attuned for Wizardry or Sorcery. It's not impossible, but it's definitely difficult. But they're neutral on Wisdom,


Little nitpick here: 3.5 orcs have Wisdom penalties.

[Grim Portent]

Then what do you do about the 'innocent' noncombatant colonist orcs who fuel the conquest?

Put them to the sword or enslave them like you would any other group serving the same role?

At least that's what most of my character's would do, but then I don't normally play character's that could be called heroes.

[Talion]

Little nitpick here: 3.5 orcs have Wisdom penalties.

Ah. My mistake. I'm a little rusty. :smallredface:

Looking at their racial bonuses proper...it's really sad, actually. Orcs are very much pressed into being Barbarians or Fighters. A hit to every mental stat like that really does limit their playing capacity. They could reasonably stand a more roleplay friendly rebalancing.

Though functionally speaking it doesn't necessarily invalidate the entirety of the above. An Orc/Some Other Race team up to give them a proper technological edge to make up for their magical short comings would have some nice potential and move them out of the senseless evil barbarian territory.

Edit: I think I just got my lines crossed with Orcs and Half-Orcs, since my previous statements used the correct stats for a Half-Orc.

[RossN]

Looking at their racial bonuses proper...it's really sad, actually. Orcs are very much pressed into being Barbarians or Fighters. A hit to every mental stat like that really does limit their playing capacity. They could reasonably stand a more roleplay friendly rebalancing.

It's game/setting balance. Orcs are already stronger and tougher than humans and breed just as fast (unlike Dwarves who are also stronger than humans but take a long time to reach adulthood and have fewer children to boot.) If Orcs were as smart as humans too then Orcs would rule the world and probably have driven everyone else to extinction.

[Segev]

If you wanted a second race to go along with the orcs-as-colonizers which explains the greater technical advantage, give them their traditional whipping boys: goblins. Goblins are often portrayed as technically inclined, and have human-level intellect and wisdom. Orcs just happen to wield the weapons the goblins build.

[Talion]

It's game/setting balance. Orcs are already stronger and tougher than humans and breed just as fast (unlike Dwarves who are also stronger than humans but take a long time to reach adulthood and have fewer children to boot.) If Orcs were as smart as humans too then Orcs would rule the world and probably have driven everyone else to extinction.

I'd say its more indicative of poor mechanics than it is of balance. Or rather, that it's not a balance issue with Orcs as much as it is a balance issue of Strength vs Charisma, Intelligence, AND Wisdom. Honestly speaking I'd probably run Orcs with the Half-Orc stats and figure out something for Half-Orcs if someone really wanted to play them (given that they're the odd group out anyway, since we aren't given the base stats of Half-Halflings, Half-Gnomes, or Half-Dwarves out the door, even though there's nothing to dissuade that possibility. Half-Elves are still a bit strange, but at least have precedent through Tolkien and others.) Of course through Tolkien we have a race of Super Orcs in the form of Uruk-hai, which would probably need a +1 level adjustment.

Going by the 3.5 stats Goblins are overall weaker, but at least don't suffer Intelligence and Wisdom penalties. They wouldn't be a bad match to go along with Orcs. It would still be interesting to see things shaken up a bit and give either side another ally of some kind with a sort of mutual "I'm using you to further my own cause" mentality.

[RossN]

I'd say its more indicative of poor mechanics than it is of balance. Or rather, that it's not a balance issue with Orcs as much as it is a balance issue of Strength vs Charisma, Intelligence, AND Wisdom. Honestly speaking I'd probably run Orcs with the Half-Orc stats and figure out something for Half-Orcs if someone really wanted to play them (given that they're the odd group out anyway, since we aren't given the base stats of Half-Halflings, Half-Gnomes, or Half-Dwarves out the door, even though there's nothing to dissuade that possibility. Half-Elves are still a bit strange, but at least have precedent through Tolkien and others.) Of course through Tolkien we have a race of Super Orcs in the form of Uruk-hai, which would probably need a +1 level adjustment.

Going by the 3.5 stats Goblins are overall weaker, but at least don't suffer Intelligence and Wisdom penalties. They wouldn't be a bad match to go along with Orcs. It would still be interesting to see things shaken up a bit and give either side another ally of some kind with a sort of mutual "I'm using you to further my own cause" mentality.

I'm not sure I'd give Tolkien's 'normal' Orcs a Strength bonus at all; they didn't seem any more physically capable than humans. The existing super strong, seven foot tall D&D Orc is a Uruk-hai with mental penalties. In many ways D&D Hobgoblins are much more like Tolkein Orcs than D&D Orcs are.

Oddly in D&D there isn't really anything to fill the niche between the weedy but relatively smart smart Goblin and the brainless but brawny Orc.

[Rockphed]

The "Tears of Blood" setting that the forum developed ten years ago included Mezo-american Orcs who could run faster and longer than other races. I don't remember if they had the ritual sacrifice of their enemies thing, but the cataclysmic event, "The Weeping", was held at bay best by those willing to go full monster on their population. I think one of the suggestions was to have Orcs wandering the lands of the other races comment on how barbaric everything was. I can't even remember what racial modifiers were given to them.

On the other hand, in my Tanistar setting, Orcs are the primary denizens of the deserts to the south-west. As opposed to the humans who dominate the plains and coasts to the east and the Elves and Dwarves who dominate the forests and mountains to the north. Their civilization is Bedouin-ish; they are a collection of loose tribes of shepherds. Well, maybe not sheep. At any rate, they worship the Raven God Corvitch, master of Darkness, Protection, Water, and Secrets. Corvitch is also the favorite of the Dwarves. The Elves and Humans worship Istaria, the Golden God of the Sun/Fire, Wrath, Healing, and Judgement. As you can imagine, both the Church of Corvitch and the Church of Istaria claim to represent the true good god while the other is an unholy terror bent on destroying civilization and all life.

[JetThomasBoat]

DO: make sexual dimporphism a thing among orcs. Switch it on its head and have the females be the bigger, stronger ones. If you're one that needs to have some kind of reasoning for why they are different than humans in that regard, what with the whole bipedal thing, maybe they have much shorter pregnancies or give birth to much smaller young they carry in pouches or something. If you want orcs to be not just green humans, go nuts with it. Why can't they marsupials?

DO: rework the orc's stats to be something you're more comfortable with. I'm going to for a setting of mine.

DON'T: have them only have green skin.

In the setting I'm working on, orcs are native to earth, but elves come from the plane of fairie, which I know is pretty common, but in my mythology, a fey lord was supposed to meet them on earth to teach them druidic magic to help them control a much more dormant world around them. But basically, the fey lord got lost and he'd never actually seen the elves before, so when he ran into orcs, he was like "Yeah, these are probably who I'm looking for" and he taught them druid magic instead. Then basically, they get in a land dispute. I always kind of thought it was weird that elves got to be more in tune with nature and really good at arcane magic, which is often shown in fantasy to not be harmonious with nature.

So in my setting, through an accident, I'm literally taking away the elf's connection to nature. They subsititute this by developing or being given arcane magic (haven' worked that out yet) and through more expansion and trade, the elves start to get the upper hand. Until the orcs are approached by a bastard god that promises to win them the war if they turn from their reverence of nature to being wholly devoted to him.

So in my setting there are both kinds of orcs. And the time frame is short enough since the war has ended that the orcs are only just now realizing that their god's call for relentless conquest will never be sustainable.

[LnGrrrR]

I've come to question the value of these threads. I'll sum up the majority of posts that tend to occur:

DO: Make them something other than orcs.

DON'T: Make them even vaguely orcish.

I chuckled. There are settings where there is a lot of gray area. (Eberron for instance.) Then there's "generic" DnD, in which Orcs are evil an you kill them because of it. There's nothing wrong with the former, or latter; it just suits different play styles. Sometimes it's easier to just make races evil. Sometimes I just want to swing around a pretend sword on Firday nights without having to pretend grieve for a pretend Orc wife with three pretend Orc babies, who will now never have a pretend Orc father ever see them graduate from pretend Orc college.

[VoxRationis]

I've come to question the value of these threads. I'll sum up the majority of posts that tend to occur:

DO: Make them something other than orcs.

DON'T: Make them even vaguely orcish.

No kidding.

[Frozen_Feet]

But then you've lost the main distinguishing point between them and the other two dozen small scale bandit races, if there's no Horde (or Sauronesque Dark Lords army) then why bother with orcs when gnolls, or goblins, or sahuagin, or human bandits etc can fill the same role just as well?
I might as well ask why bother with all those other evil things when Orcs can fill the same role just as well?

There's a huge amount of redundancy and overlap between various evil things of myth and folklore. You don't need to cram them all in the same setting or come up with distinct niches for all of them.

[Grim Portent]

I might as well ask why bother with all those other evil things when Orcs can fill the same role just as well?

There's a huge amount of redundancy and overlap between various evil things of myth and folklore. You don't need to cram them all in the same setting or come up with distinct niches for all of them.

Largely because Orcs don't really have much of a folklore basis beyond being based on various malevolent spirits of European folklore by Tolkien, they differed from pretty much all the folklore races of the past by being an actual army that attacked in huge numbers. The others all have roots in myths that make them more sensible in other roles than the dark lords army. Gnolls make more sense as bandits, hunters in the night and dwellers in haunted ruins than either Orcs or Goblins for example due to their mythological inspiration, at least to people who base their expectations off folklore and myth.