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View Full Version : Optimization Dual-Lance Paladin: A thought experiment of mine



Geriont
2015-10-27, 03:11 AM
This is a "build" (more of a train of thoughts) I had lately: The ability to get a paladin to wield two lances at once, allowing for big damage.

Here is what the build requires:
Dual Wielder Feat
Mounted Combatant (technically optional, but pretty useful nonetheless)

Because of this, I recommend using a Variant Human. You also need a mount, which a vengeance paladin gets for "free" once he hits level 5. This means that starting at level 5, you have three d12(+STR for two of them) attacks plus Hunters Mark plus eventual smites, done with advantage if the enemy is smaller than your mount (or when you vow of enmity anything bigger than that). You also have massive mobility by your mount disengaging or dashing, making the 5ft disadvantage of the lances disappear in most situations.
You dont even have to really sacrifice personal defence. Dual Wielder provides a +1 AC by dual-wielding and the paladin doesnt get the two-weapon fighting style, so might as well select defence, which now means you have the benefits of a shield without wielding a shield.
Of course, the entire build hinges on you having enough space for your mount, which the normal 5ft corridors dont provide. Or do they? You can make your mount squeeze into tight rooms, and because it is one from find steed, it will obey. It moves at half speed (we dont care), it has disadvantage on attack rolls (we still dont care) and dexterity saves (slightly concerning). And enemies have advantage on attacking it. Which we dont care about, because mounted combatant. And because you are not squeezing, those attacks lose their advantage. While you still have advantage on all the little things running around in those tight corridors, as long as you let one of your friends march in front of you.
Yes, I do realize what that image looks like :D

So far, thats what the build looks like, just a straightforward Vengeance Paladin with a horse and two lances. Now we dip into fighter for three, gaining the two-weapon fighting style, second wind and action surge. And the champion sub-class. 3 d12+d6+STR(+eventual smite) attacks, most likely done with advantage critting on 19s and 20s. A solid foundation for whatever crazyness one wants to build on top of that.

So, give me some opinions on this, maybe some glaring fault I overlooked?

Cakesnizzles
2015-10-27, 05:05 AM
Good idea. One of my favorite yugioh card as a kid.http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/d/d4/GaiaTheFierceKnight-LCYW-EN-SR-1E.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121005130936

Doof
2015-10-27, 06:02 AM
Can we make the mount a flying giant insect and call the build Beedrill?

Geriont
2015-10-27, 06:35 AM
Can we make the mount a flying giant insect and call the build Beedrill?

If you are able to sweet-talk your DM into it, go right for that and be the terror of the skies.

Submortimer
2015-10-27, 09:01 AM
Stack GWM on this. You have advantage on most attacks, might as well use it to completely wreck your opponent.

Yorrin
2015-10-27, 09:05 AM
You can do it with a Halfling and have a Medium mount to avoid any space issues. Puts off your Feats a bit, but a build that comes fully online by level 8 isn't too bad.

Belac93
2015-10-27, 09:16 AM
You can do it with a Halfling and have a Medium mount to avoid any space issues.

I thought of this too. Lances are (strangely) not heavy. Add a good mount, and your set. Spider could be cool.

Geriont
2015-10-27, 10:04 AM
Stack GWM on this. You have advantage on most attacks, might as well use it to completely wreck your opponent.

Lances are not heavy and you are already using your bonus action for more poking, so GWM has zero benefits for this build.


You can do it with a Halfling and have a Medium mount to avoid any space issues. Puts off your Feats a bit, but a build that comes fully online by level 8 isn't too bad.

Thats a possibility, but remember that the advantage on mounted combatant hinges on the enemy being smaller than your mount. So with a medium mount you lose advantage against medium creatures, which is in my opinion too huge a benefit to squander like that.

Human Paragon 3
2015-10-27, 10:34 AM
Might as well add Fighter 1 or Fighter 2 for TWF style and action surge.

Submortimer
2015-10-27, 11:38 AM
Lances are not heavy and you are already using your bonus action for more poking, so GWM has zero benefits for this building.

Huh...well what do you know? That's so weird that they're not heavy: every other reach weapon is, with the exception of the whip, and it requires two hands when not mounted.

Geriont
2015-10-27, 12:20 PM
Might as well add Fighter 1 or Fighter 2 for TWF style and action surge.

I actually included that in the post and actually would go further to Fighter 3 for potentially 5 attacks (hunters marked/maybe smites) in many cases with advantage critting on 19s and 20s is just a beautiful sight.

Daishain
2015-10-27, 12:57 PM
Glaring fault you've overlooked? How about the DM saying no?

The build may be legal by RAW, but it is incredibly ridiculous and unrealistic. Especially when speaking of using your lances while congo lining in a tight area. A lance is a weapon that requires relative momentum, either the target and/or (more commonly) the wielder need to move at high speed. Without that speed, the lance is just a pointy stick, and is the least effective of all polearms.

Geriont
2015-10-28, 01:56 AM
Glaring fault you've overlooked? How about the DM saying no?

The build may be legal by RAW, but it is incredibly ridiculous and unrealistic. Especially when speaking of using your lances while congo lining in a tight area. A lance is a weapon that requires relative momentum, either the target and/or (more commonly) the wielder need to move at high speed. Without that speed, the lance is just a pointy stick, and is the least effective of all polearms.

ridiculous and unrealistic can be applied to most things that happen in a normal DnD game. The DM saying no is a fault inherent in the system and can happen to literally everything one does.

And really, if he wants to ban the (gamey as all hell) squeezing for the mount, thats still okay, since you can just pull out two longswords and wreck stuff that way, summoning your mount once you have the space for it, while still retaining all benefits in open combat.

Mr.Moron
2015-10-28, 02:05 AM
Allowable under the circumstance the lances are named weapons and their names are Bulk & Skull and we can have a soundboard with their theme music every time they score a critical hit.

jkat718
2015-10-29, 01:42 AM
One of my players is a Level 5 Mountain Dwarf Devotion Paladin. His mount is a Yak (re-fluffed Giant Goat), he uses a Large Lance, and he has Mounted Combatant to offset the disadvantage I gave him for wielding Large weapons. With his 17 (+3) STR, the 2d12 damage from the Lance, Divine Smite for 2d8 bonus damage, and Branding Smite for 3d6 bonus damage, he can deal 2d12+2d8+3d6+3 (average 35.5) damage in a single hit, and has the option to swap out Branding Smite for Thunderous Smite, exchanging 1d6 damage for a chance to knock the target prone. In either case, his mount then makes a Ram attack (2d4+3 damage at +5 to hit) and uses its Charge ability to deal an extra 2d4 damage and try to knock the target prone again. In total, that's either 40 damage and a chance to knock prone or 37.5 damage and two chances to knock prone. It's a lot of fun. :smallbiggrin:

Nishant
2015-10-29, 01:52 AM
Can we make the mount a flying giant insect and call the build Beedrill?

I'd allow it in late game. Just gotta make sure it doesn't get too out of hand. (Probably won't, since you're still restricted to weapon range. Flight just makes for neat flavor.)

Hell, if you're going that route, save up and get a trained griffon or wyvern. If that doesn't scream badass I don't know what does.

Coyote81
2015-10-29, 08:57 AM
A Halfing Ranger beastmaster can do this build at level 4, he can ride a pterodactyl and it includes two weapon fighting style as well. At level 4 you grab the duel wield feat.

Geriont
2015-10-29, 11:13 AM
A Halfing Ranger beastmaster can do this build at level 4, he can ride a pterodactyl and it includes two weapon fighting style as well. At level 4 you grab the duel wield feat.

That means you run without mounted combatant at level 4, which will hurt once you are in the air and someone shoots the dino out from under you. You also sacrifice advantage against medium creatures once you grab mounted combatant.