Wish and Spell DC

[Melcar]

Hey...

Continuing a little on some earlier discussed stuff, I was wondering something about wish

COuld wish be used to increase permanently, like stats, the base DC of spells? Normaly its 10+spell level+ modifier + feats + misc. Could 5 consecutive wish be used to make it 15+spell level ect?

What do you guys think?

[Psyren]

Wish can do anything - the problem is that going for something too powerful can result in perversion of the Wish. This effect definitely seems out of bounds when looking at similar effects (see below.)

For comparison, we can look at Limited Wish, which allows for something similar: a temporary, no-save penalty to your target's next saving throw. Mathematically, it's identical to a one-time boost to the DC. Limited Wish:


Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.

At a minimum therefore, Wish could duplicate Limited Wish and apply this same penalty. Extrapolating, I could see Wish also being able to go up to a -9 penalty safely; Limited Wish does -7 for a 7th level spell, so Wish doing -9 for a 9th-level spell makes sense. A -7 to a target's next save is identical to a +7 to the DC of the next spell.

However, there's a wrinkle: it's only mathematically identical for single-target spells. Boosting the save DC of a multi-target or area spell (e.g. a fireball) would be akin to penalizing the saves of multiple targets, which is beyond Limited Wish's power and thus makes Wish being able to do it more of a question mark.

In any event, a permanent increase would be too powerful.

[Slithery D]

Agreed with Psyren.

And there's already a way to permanently boost your DC with wishes - by permanently boosting your casting stat.

[nyjastul69]

I agree with Psyren and Slithery D. In addition, boosting your casting stat will likely have other positive effects for your character, skills, saves etc.

[Bronk]

The other problem is that it would only work once. The effect you're looking for is actually similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar feat 'Irresistible Spell', which either grants no save (with no errata) or +10 (with errata).

[ZamielVanWeber]

The other problem is that it would only work once. The effect you're looking for is actually similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar feat 'Irresistible Spell', which either grants no save (with no errata) or +10 (with errata).

This is important: Irresistible Spell was not errata'd. In its original (official 3rd party) printing it was no save. In its (unofficial 3rd party) reprint it was changed to +10. If you check the errata documents for KoK Player's Guide you will see no mention of Irresistible Spell.

[Psyren]

None of which is relevant, because granting feats (even temporarily) is not part of Wish's safe uses, and 3rd-party feats require adjudication anyway to see if they even exist in that campaign.

Not saying that Wish can't do this, but you need a permissive DM on your side, at which point you don't even need the Wish.

[nedz]

This is outside of the safe uses of Wish so it's entirely down to your DM.

[Flickerdart]

Obviously, you should wish for the Kalamar books to become available for the game. :smalltongue:

Naturally, that has the obvious partial fulfillment of "...for the enemies only" but hey, you tried.

[Quertus]

I agree with Psyren and Slithery D. In addition, boosting your casting stat will likely have other positive effects for your character, skills, saves etc.

Which makes boosting just your save DC a) less powerful than boosting your casting stat, and b) potentially within the realm of what a wish can do. Certainly, if 5 consecutive wishes can give you a +5 Inherent bonus to your casting stat, one might expect 5 consecutive wishes to give you at least a +2.5 Inherent bonus to your save DC. This use of wish is inherently weaker than just boosting your stats directly, and so should be within the power of a wish.

Having 5 consecutive wishes provide a +5 inherent bonus to save DC? Might be balanced with +5 inherent bonus to casting stat. On average, a +8 to a casting stat provides +1 bonus spell of all levels, so +5 to casting stat provides +2.5 to save DC, 5/8ths of a spell of each level, and a +2.5 bonus to all relevant skill checks. Plus whatever else the casting stat in question provides (like 5 extra points of stat to be damaged/drained before the character is unconscious (or dead, if you somehow have Con as your casting stat)). I don't know of anything that boosts the save DC of all spells to use as a price comparison, but I suspect that +5 inherent bonus to all save DCs would be a lesser use of wish than +5 inherent bonus to a stat.

No comment on game balance issues. If you've got 10 wishes for +5 stat +5 save DC already... does it matter?

[ZamielVanWeber]

+5 to all saves DC's is the equivalent is 40 feats, 24 of which don't actually exist. That is a lot different that +5 inherent bonus to one stat.

[Bronk]

Obviously, you should wish for the Kalamar books to become available for the game. :smalltongue:

Naturally, that has the obvious partial fulfillment of "...for the enemies only" but hey, you tried.

Heh, nice! Well, you could use one wish to drop you and your party in Kalamar, learn what you need, and wish yourselves back!

Really I just included the 'irresistible spell' feat as a reference point for the power of the wish, though, since the wish is asking for the equivalent of an overpowered feat, and granting feats isn't on the list of safe wishes. Although, they are able to safely wish for magic items or to improve magic items, so they could ask for a magic item that gave you the feat, per the rules from the Arms and Equipment Guide.

That would be a pretty expensive wish though, since you have to add quite a bit of XP cost when wishing for magic items! You could try to get a hold of a supernatural wish to do it for 'free', or you could use the additional safe wish from Savage Species to transform someone into a Midgaard Dwarf from Frostburn, since they are able to make every magic item. Or you could wish one transported to you and convince it to make you one.

Really, once you start wishing, the sky is the limit.

Oh, just throwing this out there... you could also use 'wish' to emulate 'mind fog', to get the possibility of a similar effect for spells with will saves, and you could also emulate 'extract gift' to get a permanent non-magic item based bonuses to your stats...

[Quertus]

+5 to all saves DC's is the equivalent is 40 feats, 24 of which don't actually exist. That is a lot different that +5 inherent bonus to one stat.

Hmmm... a basis for comparison.

But, since improved toughness gives you +<Level> HP, at 30th level, you can't just say, "Improved Toughness is the equivalent of 10 feats!" But we can still look at this as an upper bound to the cost / value of +5 inherent bonus to save DC.

IIRC, an item that emulates a feat is valued at 10k gp. 40 feats would therefore be worth 400,000 gp. So we have 400,000gp as an upper bound. 5 wishes are worth around 125,000 gp. So, by this comparison, +5 inherent to save DC is not justified. Same order of magnitude - not a *lot* different. ;)

Going only by these prices, the value of "+5 inherent to a stat" includes +2.5 to save DCs (in addition to its other benefits), to be valued at 200,000 gp, which is more than the 125,000 cost of 5 wishes. Therefore, one could conclude that +5 inherent to a stat is itself undervalued.

[Psyren]

There is no such thing in the current rules as an "inherent bonus to a save DC." You would have to invent an entirely new rule/effect to make this happen, which would fit the definition of an unsafe Wish.

[nedz]

Really, once you start wishing, the skyDM is the limit.
Fixed that for you :smallsmile:

[Melcar]

+5 to all saves DC's is the equivalent is 40 feats, 24 of which don't actually exist. That is a lot different that +5 inherent bonus to one stat.

I have got to ask, how your came to this conclusion?

And thanks for the comments so far! :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

I have got to ask, how your came to this conclusion?

And thanks for the comments so far! :smallbiggrin:

Spell focus, greaer spell focus, gsf+, gsf++, and gsf+++ for all 8 schools of magic. With gsf+, gsf++, and gsf+++ not existing.

[Beheld]

Spell focus, greaer spell focus, gsf+, gsf++, and gsf+++ for all 8 schools of magic. With gsf+, gsf++, and gsf+++ not existing.

Or alternatively it is the cost of Snowcasting and the feat that increases DCs for all spells with cold descriptor?

[Vhaidara]

Or alternatively it is the cost of Snowcasting and the feat that increases DCs for all spells with cold descriptor?

Nope. That has a requirement of adding some snow as a material component.

Also, still only gets you to +3. And now all your spells are [Cold]

[Beheld]

Nope. That has a requirement of adding some snow as a material component.

Also, still only gets you to +3. And now all your spells are [Cold]

So you are saying that getting +3 to all your spells is worth approximately 2 feats, instead of approximately 24 feats? And that might have some bearing on the value of getting +3 to all spells. Heck, add in "Ability Focus(Spells)" for the other +2. And you can just have an infinite supply of snow at the cost of almost nothing to nothing if you are caster capable of casting Wish. You could just use Wish to summon thousands of pounds of snow. You could carry around a small box with snow in it, you could cast Control Temperature and have water around to get all the ice you could ever need.

[Vhaidara]

Not 2 feats. +3 was 18 feats: Snow casting, cold focus, spell focus+gsf x8.

And have fun getting anyone to approve Ability Focus (spells). Ever.

[Beheld]

Not 2 feats. +3 was 18 feats: Snow casting, cold focus, spell focus+gsf x8.

And have fun getting anyone to approve Ability Focus (spells). Ever.

The point is that you can get spell bonuses that apply to all spells for the cost of very few feats. Right off the bat Frozen Magic gets you a +2 bonus to all spells with the cold descriptor, so Frozen Magic, cold focus and greater cold focus gives you +4 to all your spells for the cost of four feats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The point is that you can get spell bonuses that apply to all spells for the cost of very few feats. Right off the bat Frozen Magic gets you a +2 bonus to all spells with the cold descriptor, so Frozen Magic, cold focus and greater cold focus gives you +4 to all your spells for the cost of four feats.

Cold Focus and Greater Cold Focus + Snowcasting grant +2 to any spells as long as you spend a move action first (and possibly another spell to generate snow). The bonus from Wish is unconditional and does not eat actions. Also Frozen Magic increases caster level (not save DC) and only in areas of a specific temperature.

[Beheld]

Cold Focus and Greater Cold Focus + Snowcasting grant +2 to any spells as long as you spend a move action first (and possibly another spell to generate snow). The bonus from Wish is unconditional and does not eat actions. Also Frozen Magic increases caster level (not save DC) and only in areas of a specific temperature.

You don't have to spend a move action if you aren't gathering it off the ground. Like I said, if you are a character who is capable of having wishes done you can just carry around snow from a previous casting of wish, you can just have control temperature make it so cold all water turns to ice and then carry around ice. No one is claiming you should allow wish to grant this effect carta blanche, we are talking about the appropriate value of a bonus to spell saves.

Frozen Magic does apply to CL, not save DC, my bad, though see previous comment about Control Temperature.

[Vhaidara]

Frozen Magic does apply to CL, not save DC, my bad, though see previous comment about Control Temperature.

Being able to make it passive does not mean that it is inherently passive. No more than the fact that Divine Metagmagic (Persist) or Incantatrix mean that every persistable spell is assumed to be persisted at its native level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Spells, anyone? Every monster that gets any kind of spellcasting has a single Special Attack entry for 'Spells' which every one of them falls under.

I've allowed Wish to grant an inherent bonus to natural armor, movement speed, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that your character doesn't have any idea that there's any such thing as a saving throw or a spell DC. If you wish to make your spells more difficult to resist, it would most likely add an inherent bonus to your caster level checks to overcome SR, up to +5, which wouldn't be out of the question at a level which five Wishes should normally be available.

[Barstro]

Agreed with Psyren.

And there's already a way to permanently boost your DC with wishes - by permanently boosting your casting stat.

Taking this statement as true, why cannot the Original Poster use Wish for a lesser effect? Other than throwing on a caveat that he could not ALSO get the +Stat five times on top of it, it seems fair to allow this for fewer than five whatever is needed to get state increase Wishes.

EDIT: looks like this was covered above anyway.

[Melcar]

Taking this statement as true, why cannot the Original Poster use Wish for a lesser effect? Other than throwing on a caveat that he could not ALSO get the +Stat five times on top of it, it seems fair to allow this for fewer than five whatever is needed to get state increase Wishes.

EDIT: looks like this was covered above anyway.

THis was kind of my nex question... If I cannot have +5 inherent bonus to base spell dc, how much then could one apply? +1, +2, +3?

[Beheld]

THis was kind of my nex question... If I cannot have +5 inherent bonus to base spell dc, how much then could one apply? +1, +2, +3?

+0 Unless you use the "Something Greater than this, ask your DM for super special permission" function.

[ZamielVanWeber]

THis was kind of my nex question... If I cannot have +5 inherent bonus to base spell dc, how much then could one apply? +1, +2, +3?

Even one is the rough equivalent of 8 feats. +1 to a school per wish seems more reasonable.

[Melcar]

Even one is the rough equivalent of 8 feats. +1 to a school per wish seems more reasonable.

Or the effects of the first full chapter of the Nether Scrolls! :smallwink:

[Beheld]

Even one is the rough equivalent of 8 feats. +1 to a school per wish seems more reasonable.

I really hope that was a joke.

[Zanos]

I really hope that was a joke.
I don't think thats unreasonable. 5 wishes gets you +2.5 to all spells for 125k, plus the other bonuses of having a higher casting stat. More spells per day, more skillpoints if its int, higher skill checks, etc.

+1 to the DC of a school of spells for a wish seems fine. Obviously its 100% up to your DM, but that doesn't sound ridiculous to me. If I was the player, I would still go for the casting stat increase before that unless i was playing a very focused build. Characters (should) have only so much money to spend.

[Beheld]

I don't think thats unreasonable. 5 wishes gets you +2.5 to all spells for 125k, plus the other bonuses of having a higher casting stat. More spells per day, more skillpoints if its int, higher skill checks, etc.

+1 to the DC of a school of spells for a wish seems fine. Obviously its 100% up to your DM, but that doesn't sound ridiculous to me. If I was the player, I would still go for the casting stat increase before that unless i was playing a very focused build. Characters (should) have only so much money to spend.

Wishes are free, so that is a bad system of balance in that you are still giving them a bonus to all the spells on top of everything else, which is bad, and also, as I previously stated, treating save DCs like spell focus is the standard is absolutely ridiculous.

[Zanos]

Wishes are free, so that is a bad system of balance in that you are still giving them a bonus to all the spells on top of everything else, which is bad, and also, as I previously stated, treating save DCs like spell focus is the standard is absolutely ridiculous.
I have never played in a game that allowed people to get wishes for free via any method. If you play in such a game you can have all the magical equipment you want anyway, so you've pretty much thrown all opportunity cost and value out the window.

[Beheld]

I have never played in a game that allowed people to get wishes for free via any method. If you play in such a game you can have all the magical equipment you want anyway, so you've pretty much thrown all opportunity cost and value out the window.

Unless you play with 3e wish.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Unless you play with 3e wish.

Given that 3.0 wish is subsumed by 3.5 wish it doesn't seem to matter. Wish has an not-insignificant cost attached to it. If you want to spend 40,000 exp on +1 to all saves be my guest.

[Beheld]

Given that 3.0 wish is subsumed by 3.5 wish it doesn't seem to matter.

I'm not what you mean by this. It certainly matters, since 3e wish has a 15,000gp cap on created items.


Wish has an not-insignificant cost attached to it. If you want to spend 40,000 exp on +1 to all saves be my guest.

Unless you don't wan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm)t to pay it, in (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) which case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) you don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)

[Zanos]

I'm not what you mean by this. It certainly matters, since 3e wish has a 15,000gp cap on created items.



Unless you don't wan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm)t to pay it, in (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) which case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) you don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)
Allowing people to add +1 DC to spell schools is the least broken thing you can do with a SLA wish.

[Beheld]

Allowing people to add +1 DC to spell schools is the least broken thing you can do with a SLA wish.

Uh... No, it really isn't. Number of uses of wish is meaningless when used as an SLA, so adding +1 to spells of a school is exactly like letting them add +1 to all spells. Letting them add anything at all as a permanent bonus over and above the listed effects is more broken than limiting them to the listed effects.

[Vhaidara]

Uh... No, it really isn't. Number of uses of wish is meaningless when used as an SLA, so adding +1 to spells of a school is exactly like letting them add +1 to all spells. Letting them add anything at all as a permanent bonus over and above the listed effects is more broken than limiting them to the listed effects.

Everything is meaningless when you are using wish as an SLA via efreeti abuse. Literally everything. There is no point to playing the game at that level, except as a thought exercise.

[Beheld]

Everything is meaningless when you are using wish as an SLA via efreeti abuse. Literally everything. There is no point to playing the game at that level, except as a thought exercise.

No, it isn't. Once again. People getting +5 to their stats and having items worth less than 15,000gp is not the end of the universe. Because of the nature of Planar Binding, that is pretty much all you even can use it for without significant cost.

[Zanos]

No, it isn't. Once again. People getting +5 to their stats and having items worth less than 15,000gp is not the end of the universe. Because of the nature of Planar Binding, that is pretty much all you even can use it for without significant cost.
There is no cap on the value of magical items that wish can create. It just costs more XP, and it being an SLA negates that component.

By the way, the cap on non-magical items for wish is 25000.

[Beheld]

There is no cap on the value of magical items that wish can create. It just costs more XP, and it being an SLA negates that component.

By the way, the cap on non-magical items for wish is 25000.

Or you know, the thing I already said:


Unless you play with 3e wish.

[Zanos]

Or you know, the thing I already said:
Then we're discussing separate things, and your refutations of claims made in this thread aren't relevant to the statements others have made.

[Beheld]

Then we're discussing separate things, and your refutations of claims made in this thread aren't relevant to the statements others have made.

Or in the alternative, since the OP is asking about using Wish to do stuff not on the listed effects, all discussion of wish is going to be context and individual game sensitive, and so the fact that there exists a version of Wish that isn't stupidly broken when used as an SLA is relevant to the fact that SLA wish is provided in every version of the game.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Or in the alternative, since the OP is asking about using Wish to do stuff not on the listed effects, all discussion of wish is going to be context and individual game sensitive, and so the fact that there exists a version of Wish that isn't stupidly broken when used as an SLA is relevant to the fact that SLA wish is provided in every version of the game.

Where is this "3e" wish from? If it isn't the 3.0 or 3.5 version than what version is it?

[Beheld]

Where is this "3e" wish from? If it isn't the 3.0 or 3.5 version than what version is it?

The 3.0 wish is the 3e wish. Hence my point, if you are using 3e wish, the wishing for magic items is entirely different.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The 3.0 wish is the 3e wish. Hence my point, if you are using 3e wish, the wishing for magic items is entirely different.

The 3.5 Wish existing overwrites the 3.0 Wish completely. The 3.0 Wish no longer exists outside of houserules and once we enter that area literally anything is possible.

[Beheld]

The 3.5 Wish existing overwrites the 3.0 Wish completely. The 3.0 Wish no longer exists outside of houserules and once we enter that area literally anything is possible.

You might as well say the Pathfinder wish overrides the 3.5 wish at that point. It is a different game based on the same system. The 3e wish didn't disappear into the eather never to be seen again.

And as I already said, the OP is asking about using Wish to produce "greater effects than these" there is literally no way to have a conversation about that use of wish without invoking houserules. If you say yes, he can do it, that is a houserule, if you say no, he can't, that is also a houserule. The fact that 3.5 wish is tremendously broken that the entire game is unplayable, but 3e wish is not is a relevant consideration when talking about wish.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You might as well say the Pathfinder wish overrides the 3.5 wish at that point. It is a different game based on the same system. The 3e wish didn't disappear into the eather never to be seen again.

Given that 3.5 rules specifically say that they overwrite similar 3.0 content. Pathfinder does not have that clause. 3.5 is a specific update to 3.0; they are the same game. 3.5 is a patch. Pathfinder is a separate game with similar rules.


And as I already said, the OP is asking about using Wish to produce "greater effects than these" there is literally no way to have a conversation about that use of wish without invoking houserules. If you say yes, he can do it, that is a houserule, if you say no, he can't, that is also a houserule. The fact that 3.5 wish is tremendously broken that the entire game is unplayable, but 3e wish is not is a relevant consideration when talking about wish.
And I gave an opinion on whether or not what he asked for is reasonable, at which point you declared "are you joking" and explained that a spell that no longer exists is a relevant reason to this statement.

[Beheld]

And I gave an opinion on whether or not what he asked for is reasonable, at which point you declared "are you joking" and explained that a spell that no longer exists is a relevant reason to this statement.

1) It does still exist.

2) No, I said that the fact that Wish is free means that any permanent buff you allow is a buff. That is true regardless of whether you use 3e or 3.5 wish.

3) Separately and apart from that, if someone is so incredibly stupid that they use 3.5 Wish unhouseruled, then it is true that their games ceases to function, but I assume that all intelligent people houserule 3.5 Wish before using it, because obviously anyone who doesn't is an idiot.

[Jay R]

The general answer to any question not explicitly covered by the rules is this: The DM has to make a judgement call.

[ZamielVanWeber]

1) It does still exist.
The most recent printing rule is also extremely explicit. It has been overwritten and does not exist.


2) No, I said that the fact that Wish is free means that any permanent buff you allow is a buff. That is true regardless of whether you use 3e or 3.5 wish.
5000 exp is free? I mean, you can get it for free, but then again a lot of spells are broken when you start optimizing to that degree. Wish is even one of the less offensive options.


3) Separately and apart from that, if someone is so incredibly stupid that they use 3.5 Wish unhouseruled, then it is true that their games ceases to function, but I assume that all intelligent people houserule 3.5 Wish before using it, because obviously anyone who doesn't is an idiot.

So a game with a more normal level of optimization, that never hits level 17, will cease to function? This statement is incredibly broad at best.

[Beheld]

5000 exp is free? I mean, you can get it for free, but then again a lot of spells are broken when you start optimizing to that degree. Wish is even one of the less offensive options.

You don't have to spend XP if you don't want to. And 3.5 Wish is literally the most offensive option in the game. Literally the most offensive.


So a game with a more normal level of optimization, that never hits level 17, will cease to function? This statement is incredibly broad at best.

"use 3.5 Wish unhouseruled" Bolded the relevant word.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You don't have to spend XP if you don't want to. And 3.5 Wish is literally the most offensive option in the game. Literally the most offensive.

True mind switch an ice assain of an aleax of yourself is far worse than wish. Wish gives you a pile of magic items and the ability to copy many spells and psionic powers. Nasty, certainly, but not as much as being immune to literally anything and everything. I am sure someone could think of even worse things than this.

[Beheld]

True mind switch an ice assain of an aleax of yourself is far worse than wish. Wish gives you a pile of magic items and the ability to copy many spells and psionic powers. Nasty, certainly, but not as much as being immune to literally anything and everything. I am sure someone could think of even worse things than this.

Wish allows you to, as a level 3 character, get +NI to every stat, and cast CL NI Blasphemies and Holy Words. Ice Assassin requires you to be level 17, and have some way of bypassing XP components that I don't even think exists. (You probably just mean to use ArchMage SLA to bypass the material component, but frankly, if you are a level 17 Wizard, you can probably just get a piece of one without dying and do that anyway.)

So no, Ice Assassin with XP costs bypassed is not as offensive to the game as Wish.

[Quertus]

Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Spells, anyone? Every monster that gets any kind of spellcasting has a single Special Attack entry for 'Spells' which every one of them falls under.

I've allowed Wish to grant an inherent bonus to natural armor, movement speed, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that your character doesn't have any idea that there's any such thing as a saving throw or a spell DC. If you wish to make your spells more difficult to resist, it would most likely add an inherent bonus to your caster level checks to overcome SR, up to +5, which wouldn't be out of the question at a level which five Wishes should normally be available.

Emphasis added.

This has been bothering me for a little while. I used to try to RP this kind of thing "correctly", and not wish for stats by name, not have contingencies go off based on HP, etc. But I find things start to make less sense the further you continue that line of thought.

If you don't have a concept of a saving throw, why buy a cloak of resistance? How do you explain why you activated Fate of One / Resurgence / your Ring of 9 Lives? If you don't have the concept of a spell DC, why buy class-appropriate stat boosters? How do you explain Spell Enhancer / spell focus / etc?

How does anyone ever choose what effect to have Bestow Greater Curse have?

And, case in point, if wishing to make your spells more difficult to resist gives you a bonus to your caster level checks to overcome SR, then how does anyone ever use limited wish to wish for a -7 penalty to the opponent's next save?

Although they might not call it a "saving throw", I think every character should have some concept of being able to resist magic - and being able to choose to not resist magic! Although they might not call it a save/spell DC, I think every character has the concept of some things being harder (for them) to resist than others. I think most characters could easily understand the concept that some people are better at resisting certain effects than others. I think that, in most games, you won't even be called a cheater if you target will saves at fighters the guy in full plate swinging an axe, direct damage reflex saves at wizards the guy in robes with a stick, and fort saves at rogues the guy in leather lurking uncomfortably close behind you.

So, as much as I'm all for roleplaying, and hate it when people use OOC knowledge, I think drawing a line at understanding the concept of saves and DCs would, if taken to its logical conclusion, have detrimental effects on the game.

[Jay R]

You're right, and this is an important point. The PCs don't think in terms of dice or saving throws or AC, but they do know what is happening. They know that this magic armor is better than that magic armor, that gauntlets of ogre strength make them hit more often and hurt the enemy more, and that every once in awhile they get better so that it takes more attacks to defeat them.

Trying to find a way to say this without referring to the rules only makes communication more difficult, and thus, makes us focus more on the rules mechanics instead of what they are simulating.

"It's OK. You can just say '+5 sword' here. We do stuff like that all the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)"

[Melcar]

Wish allows you to, as a level 3 character, get +NI to every stat, and cast CL NI Blasphemies and Holy Words. Ice Assassin requires you to be level 17, and have some way of bypassing XP components that I don't even think exists. (You probably just mean to use ArchMage SLA to bypass the material component, but frankly, if you are a level 17 Wizard, you can probably just get a piece of one without dying and do that anyway.)

So no, Ice Assassin with XP costs bypassed is not as offensive to the game as Wish.

How do you not pay the exp cost?

[Beheld]

How do you not pay the exp cost?

To reiterate my previous answer.


Unless you don't wan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm)t to pay it, in (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) which case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) you don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)

You Planar Bind and Efferti, and get him to give you his three wishes in exchange for not murdering him where he stands. He uses those wishes for you to wish for "A Staff of Wish" "A +999999999999999999 belt of magnificence" and "Whatever you want." (You can also offer him the third wish for himself, as part of the deal for a circumstance bonus to the Planar Binding check.)

Then you use the Staff of Wishes and your now arbitrarily high UMD check to emulate the Wish in the staff, and wish for any other items you can imagine.

You can also shortcut all of this with a Candle of Invocation which you use to Gate and Efferti in, to do it at level 3-5ish.

Since Efferti's have the Wishes as SLAs, and SLAs, (with the exception of Archmage SLAs) bypass XP requirements, they don't need to spend any XP to create the magic items, and since that is the only limit on magic item creation with wish (in 3.5, which is why I advocate using 3e wish), you can wish for things with arbitrarily high epic costs worth googleplexes of GP, such as a staff of wishes with a googleplex of XP invested in each wish and 50 charges, or a +googleplex to all stats Belt of Magnificence, which has the benefits of giving you + half a googleplex to all saves, to touch AC, to HP (xHD), to save DCs of your spells, and to all skill checks.

Now, if you are not using dumb stupid bad terrible 3.5 wish rules, and you are instead using 3e wish rules, you would instead Planar Bind 10 Efferti of the course of a couple days, and negotiate for them to Wish your stats +1 consecutively, and you would just get +5 inherent to all stats when you hit level 11. You could also get any item that costs less than 15,000gp. But since most of the items past level 11 that you really want cost more than 15,000gp, that isn't that big a deal, and you just have to say that since everyone else can also wish for all those items, no one is going to sell you an item worth more than 15,000gp for gold, so you better go out and adventure either for items, or complex components that allow you to craft those items.

[Melcar]

To reiterate my previous answer.



You Planar Bind and Efferti, and get him to give you his three wishes in exchange for not murdering him where he stands. He uses those wishes for you to wish for "A Staff of Wish" "A +999999999999999999 belt of magnificence" and "Whatever you want." (You can also offer him the third wish for himself, as part of the deal for a circumstance bonus to the Planar Binding check.)

Then you use the Staff of Wishes and your now arbitrarily high UMD check to emulate the Wish in the staff, and wish for any other items you can imagine.

You can also shortcut all of this with a Candle of Invocation which you use to Gate and Efferti in, to do it at level 3-5ish.

Since Efferti's have the Wishes as SLAs, and SLAs, (with the exception of Archmage SLAs) bypass XP requirements, they don't need to spend any XP to create the magic items, and since that is the only limit on magic item creation with wish (in 3.5, which is why I advocate using 3e wish), you can wish for things with arbitrarily high epic costs worth googleplexes of GP, such as a staff of wishes with a googleplex of XP invested in each wish and 50 charges, or a +googleplex to all stats Belt of Magnificence, which has the benefits of giving you + half a googleplex to all saves, to touch AC, to HP (xHD), to save DCs of your spells, and to all skill checks.

Now, if you are not using dumb stupid bad terrible 3.5 wish rules, and you are instead using 3e wish rules, you would instead Planar Bind 10 Efferti of the course of a couple days, and negotiate for them to Wish your stats +1 consecutively, and you would just get +5 inherent to all stats when you hit level 11. You could also get any item that costs less than 15,000gp. But since most of the items past level 11 that you really want cost more than 15,000gp, that isn't that big a deal, and you just have to say that since everyone else can also wish for all those items, no one is going to sell you an item worth more than 15,000gp for gold, so you better go out and adventure either for items, or complex components that allow you to craft those items.

Ahh... so arbitrary amounds of cheese...


Well i was refering to what speifically woudl be viable for the 3.5 spell wish. I understand, that with cheese or shapechange into Sarrukh one can just about do what you want, but I was specifically wondering about if wish could give inherent bonus to spell DC...

I do however thank you for your cheese and cheese sandwich! :smallbiggrin:

[Beheld]

Ahh... so arbitrary amounds of cheese...


Well i was refering to what speifically woudl be viable for the 3.5 spell wish. I understand, that with cheese or shapechange into Sarrukh one can just about do what you want, but I was specifically wondering about if wish could give inherent bonus to spell DC...

I do however thank you for your cheese and cheese sandwich! :smallbiggrin:

You use the spell Planar Binding for it's express intended purpose, bringing in Outsiders and making a deal with them.

You bring in the Efferti, a creature which expressly has the ability to grant you wishes, but not itself wishes.

There is literally no cheese there whatsoever, zero cheese, provided you are using 3e Wish. There is literally zero cheese so long as you don't wish for an item that costs epic amounts of cash. This is literally zero cheese to get free wishes.

[atemu1234]

Obviously, you should wish for the Kalamar books to become available for the game. :smalltongue:

Naturally, that has the obvious partial fulfillment of "...for the enemies only" but hey, you tried.

Irresistible Spell Phantasmal Killer is fun.

[Beheld]

Irresistible Spell Phantasmal Killer is fun.

Pretty sure they errataed Irresistible spell to be only +10 to DC. If you really pumped Saves that wouldn't even be a problem. Just heightening to 9th level would give +5, so you are only even getting a +5 bonus over that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Pretty sure they errataed Irresistible spell to be only +10 to DC. If you really pumped Saves that wouldn't even be a problem. Just heightening to 9th level would give +5, so you are only even getting a +5 bonus over that.
This is a common misconception. They official 3.0 version strips the save. The unofficial 3.5 has different text. Irresistible Spell is not mentioned in the 3.0 errata files. Normally this would be pretty clear (same name means 2nd takes precedent) except the 3.0 version is official Wizard content while the 3.5 version is not. End problem is that rules that would allow the 3.0 version may not allow the 3.5 version.

[Zanos]

You use the spell Planar Binding for it's express intended purpose, bringing in Outsiders and making a deal with them.

You bring in the Efferti, a creature which expressly has the ability to grant you wishes, but not itself wishes.

There is literally no cheese there whatsoever, zero cheese, provided you are using 3e Wish. There is literally zero cheese so long as you don't wish for an item that costs epic amounts of cash. This is literally zero cheese to get free wishes.
What constitutes cheese is subjective. I wouldn't let someone use a Candle of Invocation to get +5 to all stats at some arbitrarily low level, or at any level.


This is a common misconception. They official 3.0 version strips the save. The unofficial 3.5 has different text. Irresistible Spell is not mentioned in the 3.0 errata files. Normally this would be pretty clear (same name means 2nd takes precedent) except the 3.0 version is official Wizard content while the 3.5 version is not. End problem is that rules that would allow the 3.0 version may not allow the 3.5 version.
To elaborate, the guys that make the KoK books lost their WoTC endorsement between the time they published the original book and the errata, so the errata isn't officially endorsed material.

[Beheld]

What constitutes cheese is subjective. I wouldn't let someone use a Candle of Invocation to get +5 to all stats at some arbitrarily low level, or at any level.

Well I did say Planar Binding being used for it's express purpose, not Candle of Invocation, the express purpose of Candle of Invocation could only be to demonstrate the incompetence of the designers. But that being the case, Candle of Invocation is actually harder to get +5 to all stats with, because Planar Binding allows you to Coordinate the Wishes over days, so you can get enough to get all the wishes at once very easily, whereas Candle of Invocation would require you to wish for More Candles of Invocation with the First wish, (bypassing the XP to create items, which I don't think was intended) and then using multiple Candles to Gate in multiple Efferti at once to stack the Wishes.