How playable is a commoner at 2xECL?

[emulord]

If you had a commoner with double the levels of the average of the rest of the party, how useful would they be in combat or for a limited skillmonkey?

Assume no spellcasting, but UMD is ok.
Epic feats ok at level 20 (ECL 10)


Edit: Expect ECL wealth, so a Level 8 commoner has Level 4 wealth

[Vhaidara]

If they get WBL for their actual level, absolutely broken. With enough funds, UMD is T0.

Besides that, it depends on how much skill/feat abuse is allowed. There's Diplomancy, Sleight of Hand teleportation abuse, Future Sight Knowledge (History), and Epic Bluff abuse, just to name a few.

[emulord]

Im looking for practical optimization levels. Assume Epic skill DCs are unlocked when he hits level 20.
No dark chaos shuffle. Try to avoid Aberrant feats

How would he contribute in a balanced party of 4?
Lets say for 32 point buy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wouldn't they pretty much be a warrior? I mean the only thing they would have going for them would be "full BAB" and even then they would start getting behind at level 10 (virtual level 20) since BAB stops increasing.

[Vhaidara]

Im looking for practical optimization levels. Assume Epic skill DCs are unlocked when he hits level 20.

Is this level 20 (ECL 10) or ECL 20? Also, those are completely legal at any level, if you can make the DC.


No dark chaos shuffle. Try to avoid Aberrant feats

Neither of those will likely be a problem. DCFS isn't really abusable without a significant source of extra feats (like elf or Vow of Poverty)


How would he contribute in a balanced party of 4?
Lets say for 32 point buy.

Define balanced party. Is this the WotC balanced party of beatstick fighter, skillmonkey rogue, blaster wizard, and healbot cleric? Absolutely he can contribute to that.
If it's a God Wizard, Cleirczilla, Hordificer, and StP Erudite? Again, depends on his WBL and ability to abuse UMD.

[Troacctid]

Most likely the main use would be to dip into it as a way of qualifying for prestige classes or getting to epic sooner. It gives "bonus" feats and full BAB, so it's otherwise similar to Fighter, I guess.

[OldTrees1]

Well they (if a Human) gets
2+2/3 * ECL Feats (probably including Able Learner)
1+ECL ranks in 6+2 * Int cross class skills via Able Learner feat.
2d4+2 * Con HD (roughly 1d10+2 * Con)
2/3 * ECL saves (which is roughly Good Saves)
Full BAB (excluding the -10 and -15 iteriative attacks)

It looks quite similar to a single classed Martial Rogue. Unfortunately Martial Rogues (like their weaker cousin the Fighter) have trouble contributing without careful acquisition of other improvements through race/multiclassing.

I would probably suggest a Dire Flail Smash + Double Hit + Combat Reflexes but would need to gain both Flight and Reach (3 feats via Aberrant Feats, 4 feats and 2 less skills or 5 feats via Dragon Wings + Deformity Tall).

[Dusk Eclipse]

What do you mean by bonus feats? Commoner gets 1/2 BAB, all bad saves, 2 SP/level and that's it.

[OldTrees1]

What do you mean by bonus feats? Commoner gets 1/2 BAB, all bad saves, 2 SP/level and that's it.

Feats gained from HD. Remember it is 2 levels of Commoner as a level.

[emulord]

Wouldn't they pretty much be a warrior? I mean the only thing they would have going for them would be "full BAB" and even then they would start getting behind at level 10 (virtual level 20) since BAB stops increasing.

Right, but they have twice the number of hitdice. Double constitution bonuses. Good saves too.


Define balanced party. Is this the WotC balanced party of beatstick fighter, skillmonkey rogue, blaster wizard, and healbot cleric? Absolutely he can contribute to that.
If it's a God Wizard, Cleirczilla, Hordificer, and StP Erudite? Again, depends on his WBL and ability to abuse UMD.

Im thinking the middle level of optimization of a UMD rogue, Prestiged fighter with good damage, batman wizard, BFC cleric



Is this level 20 (ECL 10) or ECL 20? Also, those are completely legal at any level, if you can make the DC.


Oh I didnt know that about epic skill DCs. Okay, nevermind. Im looking for a RAW interpretation generally.

[Jack_Simth]

If you had a commoner with double the levels of the average of the rest of the party, how useful would they be in combat or for a limited skillmonkey?

Assume no spellcasting, but UMD is ok.
Epic feats ok at level 20 (ECL 10)


Edit: Expect ECL wealth, so a Level 8 commoner has Level 4 wealth

Well, a Commoner-20 with 10th level PC WBL will likely be close to on par with a Fighter-10 with 10th level PC WBL, assuming they use the same stat array. The fighter has a few more feats (more than just the fighter bonus ones, because the commoner probably ends up spending a few on weapon/armor proficiencies), the Commoner has a few more stat increases. The fighter has a bigger hit die, the commoner has more instance of Con to HP. The fighter is probably going to be slightly more useful, but not by all that much.

[Uncle Pine]

With the given parameters, Commoner effectively becomes a class with a d10 HD, 4+double Int skill points per level with a suboptimal list of class skills, full BAB, all good saves, full initiator level (although you can only get maneuvers and stances from feats and items) and no useful class features: this alone puts Commoner above Monk, as Commoner outshines Monk in every area.

Add Chicken Infested to the pile, which is a really interesting flaw even if you're not actively trying to break the game. The Commoner now gets his first class feature: Comical Relief. This is important for many characters, because it makes the class fun to play for many players.

Since Handle Animal is a class skill for a Commoner, it's also reasonable for the Commoner to hang around with a fairly useful "animal companion". Note that this is true even for the normal Commoner and also abusable because optimizing Handle Animal can be quite effective. Again, if you're not actively trying to break the game, this is good a way to build an effective character. If for some reason you wouldn't enjoy playing a barely literate peon who rides a bear in battle, then shame on you.
WBL optimization is usually a key part of any functional Commoner character, because Commoner usually sucks. A buffed Commoner has to rely less on his gear than a normal one, so there's hardly a reason to talk about it since the buffed Commoner is affected by his WBL as any other character.

In conclusion, this buffed Commoner would indeed be playable. Moreover, while the buffed Commoner has access to some campaign breaking abilities (i.e. Chicken Infested, Handle Animal and WBL optimization) the same applies to the LG Colossal venerable dragonwrought kobold base Commoner 4 whose first words as soon as it hatched were " Pazuzu! Pazuzu! Pazuzu!" so I think you're fine.

[Flickerdart]

Commoner 40 (avoiding dumb Epic rules): 20 BAB, 14 feats, +12 all saves, 43 ranks in 2 skills, 100hp from class.
Fighter 20: 20 BAB, 18 feats (plus martial weapons and armours and shields profs), +12/+6/+6 saves, 23 ranks in 2 skills, 110hp from class.

The Commoner is no frontliner - he'll have 20 more HP per point of CON, but he'll also eat punches more often due to a lower AC. His saves are better, but +12 saves don't help Monks too much either. His damage will be pretty butts.

The Commoner's only two tricks will come from his high HD - his abilities that have DCs of the "10 + 1/2 HD + Stat mod" variety will be 10 points higher than others', and his skill cap is very high, so he can achieve excellence in a couple of skills. As any commoner, he should abuse Handle Animal but he could also take feats to add other skills to his list and capitalize on those. Thus, the Commoner should:

Be human
Take Nymph's Kiss
Take feats with DCs based on HD
Focus on INT and CON for his ability scores

[emulord]

Wouldn't they pretty much be a warrior? I mean the only thing they would have going for them would be "full BAB" and even then they would start getting behind at level 10 (virtual level 20) since BAB stops increasing.


Actually they still get "full" BaB. It even counts for feat requirements.
d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#epicAttackBonus

[Dusk Eclipse]

You get the bonus but you cap at 2 iterative attacks

Epic Attack Bonus
Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

Emphasis mine

[Vizzerdrix]

The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook) should give you an idea of what you can get up to.

[daremetoidareyo]

Animal handling is abusable. You can train teamwork benefits into stuff, and then you can get them to aid you in skill checks, and if they are really small, they can all be in your square helping you. For flight, don't take multiple feats, just take one: skill focus balance. Make a craft (tailor) check to make a suit that houses 100 vipers close to your skin. Use animal handling to train 100 vipers in the teamwork benefit "Superior Team effort" from PHB2. Pour the hundreds of vipers into your suit and wear it. You can now make DC 120 balance checks, which means that you can walk on clouds. Considering that the tiny viper gets like a +11 to balance checks, the DC 5 to help you is an automatic +2 per tiny viper. Now you can balance on air molecules = Flight

Also consider using your feats to spit cones of con damage
animal devotion serpents strike does 1d3 con damage. Save DC = 10+ CLASS level + cha bonus
Spit venom lets you spit it in 15' range
deadly spittle turns that into a cone.

All you have to do is figure out how to get static bonuses to that damage.
Martial Study + martial Stance (shadow something 2d6 sneak attack) + craven

If you still got feats, consider verminfriend and spiderbite so that after your minute of con damage shenanigans is over for the day, you can switch over to strength damage.

Hope that your party can debuff the fort save of your opponents.