A version of a Dragon Magazine Pantheon for my campaign setting

[nick_crenshaw]

Sacarsa Pantheon (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hpFb-3sjMtu76RtB27ZkgtIG15kkyhkUrgpILgJFYdw/edit?usp=sharing)

I am borrowing the pantheon from Dragon Magazine #283 and Here (http://www.angelfire.com/d20/waterworld/copy_of_pantheon.html)

[avr]

OK. Why are you writing your own rather than using a pantheon someone else wrote? This doesn't look like an improvement on the Greyhawk pantheon (even without the work LudicSavant has done for it) or on the Eberron pantheon, and it's better than the Forgotten Realms or Golarion's only in that it's simpler.

People writing novels or published campaign settings have to reinvent the wheel even if they're not good at that stuff for copyright reasons. If you don't have good inspiration to work from maybe it'd be easier on your players to use something they might have prior familiarity with?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

As an alternative to the above response, I'll ask: How will you utilize this pantheon to set the world apart from others? Religion profoundly affects and is affected by the physical conditions and societies of worshipers.

I disagree with the idea that this is a pointless attempt to "reinvent the wheel," any more than inventing a setting whole-cloth is a pointless reinvention of the wheel. But it is true that there's only going to be value in doing something different if it adds differentiation to your world. It's sort of the same as the fantasy race lineup. If you've got a species fitting the usual depiction of elves to a tee, but you call them vallances instead, you haven't meaningfully differentiated your world. Likewise, if your pantheon just has some portfolio stuff swapped around and religion (or maybe godly politics, depending on scope) isn't profoundly different than the standard in your world, then you haven't meaningfully differentiated your world.

Just food for thought.

[Amazon]

Aggran Sounds kind of bland and generic dwarven god.

Liked Amora, I just don't get how Girdle can be her symbol.

Liked Aos but Argena sounds too similar to Artemis maybe you could give her a diferent weapon?

Charmeine is ok but the symbol is too much like medicine.

No human gods as usual.

Coreth is kind of boring and generic too, try to add a twist in the old "Mother earth" thing.

Galdorm maybe try to make him look more sympathetic?

Hishrak, Liked the cosmic bully name LOL but it has little to do with him. I think it may the most interesting and original god you did.

Intara, did not like the yin ynag thing but other than that ok god of magic, maybe some backstories of this gods and myths whould be nice.

Lilianu, cool and interesting.

Neleva, original liked I gues sI whould make a cleric pc of her.

Romas and Solis are ok.

Twain is the obligatory trickster deity.

Uria is the evil death god. Maybe you should do a good detah good since funerals are important part of faith.

Overall they sound very solid. Some may be too generic for my taste. So maybe you could add some twists that would make them more interesting. Good luck using your pantheon in your games.

[Aedilred]

On a purely presentational note, I think it would be an idea to transcribe or copy as much of that as possible into your forum post, and preferably provide some sort of commentary or introduction, rather than just posting an offsite link.

[the_david]

An unwritten rule states that deities must have the domains representing their alignments. Sean K. Reynolds commented on this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Argena and Galdorm need the chaos domain, Solis should have the Law domain. Other than that. It's pretty generic.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

An unwritten rule states that deities must have the domains representing their alignments. Sean K. Reynolds commented on this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Argena and Galdorm need the chaos domain, Solis should have the Law domain. Other than that. It's pretty generic.
Y'welcome. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html)

[Dusk Raven]

People writing novels or published campaign settings have to reinvent the wheel even if they're not good at that stuff for copyright reasons. If you don't have good inspiration to work from maybe it'd be easier on your players to use something they might have prior familiarity with?

As someone who frequently uses my own pantheons, the reason I usually create my own is a. because I want to and it's fun, and b. I usually can't use the Greyhawk pantheon, owing to the fact that my setting is different than Greyhawk and the gods interact in different ways. Or maybe, after reading Deities and Demigods too much, I have my own ideas for a pantheon that works rather differently than the Greyhawk one. Or maybe I'm doing something in a non-D&D setting and would rather create my own IP than use another's, especially for publishing. Half the people I'd DM for aren't really that familiar with Greyhawk's deities, anyway. I've been reading about D&D for years and most of them are just names to me, honestly.


As an alternative to the above response, I'll ask: How will you utilize this pantheon to set the world apart from others? Religion profoundly affects and is affected by the physical conditions and societies of worshipers.

I disagree with the idea that this is a pointless attempt to "reinvent the wheel," any more than inventing a setting whole-cloth is a pointless reinvention of the wheel. But it is true that there's only going to be value in doing something different if it adds differentiation to your world. It's sort of the same as the fantasy race lineup. If you've got a species fitting the usual depiction of elves to a tee, but you call them vallances instead, you haven't meaningfully differentiated your world. Likewise, if your pantheon just has some portfolio stuff swapped around and religion (or maybe godly politics, depending on scope) isn't profoundly different than the standard in your world, then you haven't meaningfully differentiated your world.

Just food for thought.

Valid points, but mostly I just have to say the following - if you try too hard to make your setting a snowflake, you'll find it's either impossible or not worth the effort. That being said, I don't think being unique is the same as being interesting, and the latter is far preferable. While new things can be interesting, sometimes we fall back on old tropes because we like them.

Speaking of tropes, however... I took a look at the pantheon we're talking about, and I do have to agree a number of them seem derivative. Argena is pretty blatantly Artemis, and Lilianu reminds me of Ehlonna. Twain is mostly a typical trickster god, although Neutral Good is very much not an alignment I expect of any trickster god. I sort of liked Coreth, personally. What really irked me, though, is Uria. Another evil god(dess) of death? I never understand those types. If they want people to die, they'd know they literally need to do nothing and people will die simply because they live. Committing genocide just means there's going to be less people in the future to die, and small-scale murder is just petty. Really, the recent trend of making gods of death evil just irks me. Of course, a god of undeath, as opposed to gods of dying or being dead (two related but different things) might be different.

On that note, I also want to see a god of love that isn't good. Even a cursory look at human nature or even romance novels should reveal that love is not a purely good force. Actually, I think a D&D splatbook, Libris Mortis I believe, has a non-good goddess of love...

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Valid points, but mostly I just have to say the following - if you try too hard to make your setting a snowflake, you'll find it's either impossible or not worth the effort. That being said, I don't think being unique is the same as being interesting, and the latter is far preferable. While new things can be interesting, sometimes we fall back on old tropes because we like them.
I'm not trying to say every little thing in a setting has to be different and unique, because you're right; that's insanely hard if not impossible. What I'm saying is more "if you're going to change something, do it meaningfully." For example, an elf by another name is no more interesting than an elf by the name of elf if you don't change any of the meat of the race. So if you're going to use elves, just call them elves and be done with it. Likewise, if your Artemis analogue is too close and isn't specifically meant to parody Artemis or achieve some similar literary purpose, then you've completely wasted (an admittedly tiny amount of, in this example) creative energy by changing the name and redoing the cosmetics.

[Dusk Raven]

I'm not trying to say every little thing in a setting has to be different and unique, because you're right; that's insanely hard if not impossible. What I'm saying is more "if you're going to change something, do it meaningfully." For example, an elf by another name is no more interesting than an elf by the name of elf if you don't change any of the meat of the race. So if you're going to use elves, just call them elves and be done with it. Likewise, if your Artemis analogue is too close and isn't specifically meant to parody Artemis or achieve some similar literary purpose, then you've completely wasted (an admittedly tiny amount of, in this example) creative energy by changing the name and redoing the cosmetics.

Ah yes, I can completely understand that. In which case, yeah, no point in changing the sound of the words when the meaning is the same, so to speak. If, for instance, you're basing a deity off a real-world mythic god, the players will probably just recognize the resemblance, so no point in changing the name. And if it's something they won't recognize, an obscure deity like Chernabog or Tezcatlipoca (though the latter name may be worth changing simply for pronunciation and memory purposes), then if it's interesting enough they might want to learn more about the real inspiration.

[avr]

As someone who frequently uses my own pantheons, the reason I usually create my own is a. because I want to and it's fun, and b. I usually can't use the Greyhawk pantheon, owing to the fact that my setting is different than Greyhawk and the gods interact in different ways. Or maybe, after reading Deities and Demigods too much, I have my own ideas for a pantheon that works rather differently than the Greyhawk one. Or maybe I'm doing something in a non-D&D setting and would rather create my own IP than use another's, especially for publishing. Half the people I'd DM for aren't really that familiar with Greyhawk's deities, anyway. I've been reading about D&D for years and most of them are just names to me, honestly.
Sure, if you've got ideas. If you have no new ideas, you're not looking to publish, and your world isn't pushing you anywhere much (that's what I get from reading the doc linked in the OP), there's at least a chance that some of the people you game with will know one or two of an existing pantheon.

On that note, I also want to see a god of love that isn't good. Even a cursory look at human nature or even romance novels should reveal that love is not a purely good force. Actually, I think a D&D splatbook, Libris Mortis I believe, has a non-good goddess of love...
PF's Golarion has a goddess of love and revenge. Calistria's (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Calistria) chaotic neutral and doesn't lean good at all, she has a code of conduct listed for her antipaladins.

[nick_crenshaw]

I thank you for all your replies and in that vain I would love some help to make my pantheon more interesting. (FYI: This is not an original pantheon but was borrowed from Dragon Magazine, issue #283 I believe.)

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I thank you for all your replies and in that vain I would love some help to make my pantheon more interesting. (FYI: This is not an original pantheon but was borrowed from Dragon Magazine, issue #283 I believe.)
:smallconfused:

Why are you calling it your pantheon and posting it in World-Building if it's cribbed from Dragon Magazine?

[nick_crenshaw]

:smallconfused:

Why are you calling it your pantheon and posting it in World-Building if it's cribbed from Dragon Magazine?

I never said it was mine, and the whole point of Dragon Magazine was to be cribbed for homebrew campaigns (i.e. campaigns that will never see print.)

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I never said it was mine, and the whole point of Dragon Magazine was to be cribbed for homebrew campaigns (i.e. campaigns that will never see print.)
But... But... The thread title is "My Pantheon..."

Opening a group discussion on improving it for use in your game seems appropriate for World-Building, but that's something you might want to point out specifically in the opening post next time.

Anyway, the things I said before still hold, and I'll come up with some ideas you can work with over the next couple of days.

[nick_crenshaw]

But... But... The thread title is "My Pantheon..."

Opening a group discussion on improving it for use in your game seems appropriate for World-Building, but that's something you might want to point out specifically in the opening post next time.

Anyway, the things I said before still hold, and I'll come up with some ideas you can work with over the next couple of days.

Your right about my first post. I will change my first post if I can.

[Xuc Xac]

An unwritten rule states that deities must have the domains representing their alignments. Sean K. Reynolds commented on this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Argena and Galdorm need the chaos domain, Solis should have the Law domain. Other than that. It's pretty generic.

I think that requiring all gods to have the domains of their alignments is really bland and generic. A paladin type of god might be Lawful Good and take an active interest in promoting that alignment in the world, but other gods might not care that much about ethics or morality. A god of the forge isn't going to have the Law domain just because he thinks quality control is important and sloppy craftsmanship should be avoided.

[the_david]

I think that requiring all gods to have the domains of their alignments is really bland and generic. A paladin type of god might be Lawful Good and take an active interest in promoting that alignment in the world, but other gods might not care that much about ethics or morality. A god of the forge isn't going to have the Law domain just because he thinks quality control is important and sloppy craftsmanship should be avoided.
The Pathfinder Mythic rules find a way to make it even worse. At the third mythic tier you can start to grant your followers spells, but you only get 2 domains at first. Eventually you can get up to 4 domains and 4 subdomains, but if your lawful good your gonna have to suck it up for a while.
Alternatively, you could just get rid of the alignment domains, and alignment altogether.

But to be honest, alignment is more than a crutch for the gods. It's what they are. So your god of the forge wouldn't have the law domain if it wasn't in his dogma, but he also wouldn't be lawful. He'd be neutral...

[avr]

OK. The first question is what sort of game this is for. If the world is about to go to war and only your PCs can stop it you have different priorities than if they will be participating in and eventually winning the war, and neither's the same as a backdrop to a bunch of unrelated quests, or a sandbox where the players decide what sort of game you will be running. This list is not of course exhaustive.

There are a few things which need doing for many types of games though.

A little more subtlety than 'these gods and their followers are good, these are evil' would be desirable. Perhaps some of the gods have two or more different cults.

Some sort of groupings or structure (e.g. these gods cults are in the Golden Alliance, these ones follow the Tattered Banner, these three gods are siblings and forbid their cults to fight despite their differences) would be easier for your players to remrmber than 18 unrelated gods.

Some note as to if/how a god intervenes in the mortal world and why/when. Can players call on the gods in any way other than getting levels in cleric?

[jqavins]

I don't have time to read all the comments right now (I will later today) but there's one thing I'd like to ask. And yes, it's another spin on the first couple of posts, but I think it's an important different spin.

What are you trying to accomplish by modifying this pantheon? If it's just to be new and different that's fine, but you're going to get a lot of suggestions that have, likewise, no direction except being different. Intara knows I enjoy that game as much as that next guy, but it may not really be helpful to you.

If you have something more specific in mind, you've got to let us know so that responses can be on target. Is there a deficiency or other problem with this and other pre-made pantheons that you'd like to improve? Is there some aspect of your world that the Gods-in-a-Can pantheons don't address? Etc.

[nick_crenshaw]

Should I just have a super simple pantheon based on the following archetypes

The Great Mother
Perhaps the most overwhelming universal deity of all is the Great Mother, a goddess of fertility. We even use the secular phrase “Mother Nature” to invoke this image. The Goddess is the focus of fertility and prosperity, and is usually seen as a sympathetic figure.
Alignment: Usually neutral good.
Suggested Domains: Earth, Good, Healing, Plant, Protection, and Water.
Examples: Gaia/Terra (Greek/Roman), Isis (Egypt), and Ehlonna and Yondalla (Greyhawk)

The Green Man
The male counterpart to the mighty Great Mother is the Green Man. He is not as famous but exists in many cultures. The Green Man is often thought to be irrepressible, full of vigor and life. He represents purity, protection, the link between man and nature, and the symmetry of life. Usually the Green Man is depicted by a man’s face covered in foliage, sometimes with horns.
Alignment: Neutral.
Suggested Domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Protection, and Water.
Examples: Holly Man (Celtic), Green Jack/Green George (European folklore), Obad-Hai (Greyhawk), and even Tom Bombadil (The Lord of the Rings)

The Trickster
A very common god is the trickster figure who makes mischief in the affairs gods and mortals alike. In the modern day, these figures have lost some of their vulgarity. The politically correct tricksters demonstrate intelligence and a sense of humor, attributes we admire in the modern day. For an example of the change in the trickster recorder’s often edited American Indian stories removing lurid details such as Coyote’s three wise turds, which he would consult whenever he had a problem.
Unabridged tricksters can be terrible, heartless criminal and outright evil. They commonly cause trouble that injures or kills people, seduce spouses into committing adultery, trick gods and men alike into making decisions they otherwise would not, and in general make everyone’s life miserable,
Alignment: Always chaotic, usually neutral or evil.
Suggested Domains: Chaos, Trickery, and perhaps Evil.
Examples: Olidammara (Greyhawk), Coyote (West and Southwest American Indians), Iktomi (Lakota), Nanabozho (Ojibwa), Chulyen (Nootka/Tanaina), Saynday (Kiowa), Amaguq (Canadian Eskimo/Inuit), Cin-av-ev (Ute), Loki (Norse mythology), Brer Rabbit (West African, African-American folklore), Kaulu (Polynesian), and Qat (Banks Islands).

The Destroyer
This is a god or goddess of destruction. The most famous is the Hindu goddess Kali and her followers the Thugee, from which the word “thug” is derived. The destroyer could easily be considered evil, but is given reverence by many all the same. These gods can be associated with regeneration.
Alignment: Chaotic, usually evil.
Suggested Domains: Chaos, Death, Destruction, War, and perhaps Evil.
Examples: Shiva and Kali (Hindu), Angra Mainyu (Zoroastrianism), and Erythnul (Greyhawk).

The God of Revelry
This god or goddess is devoted to have a good time and drinking liquor. These gods are quite popular, and worshipers can get very raucous. Temples to Bacchus in ancient Rome were notorious for keeping the city up all night. These gods often play important roles in mythology, however, and are not to be dismissed lightly.
Alignment: Always chaotic, usually good or neutral.
Suggested Domains: Chaos and Luck.
Examples: Bacchus/Dionysus (Roman/Greek), Ashnan (Sumerian), Maeve (Irish), Acan (Mayan), Yi-Ti (Chinese), Fufluns (Etruscan), and Olidammara (Greyhawk).

God of War and Storms
Usually the god of storms in a pantheon is also the god of war. He will have power over thunderbolts and is usually a commanding figure; if not the commander of the gods he is certainly a lieutenant. This god is also prominent in the “Order from Chaos” myth.
Alignment: Lawful.
Suggested Domains: War, Strength, Air, Law, and Destruction.
Examples: Ah Chuy Kak (Mayan), Thor (Norse), Marduk (Semetic), Karei (Andamen Island), Nha-San (Umbandistic), Apu-Hau (Hawaii), Bmola (Abenaki) and Ishkur/Adad (Sumarian/Babylonian).

The Sun God
The sun god is responsible for making sure each day happens and that darkness is dispelled. This god is often associated with renewal and the progression of time. His symbol will include some sort of sun imagery.
Alignment: Lawful.
Suggested Domains: Law and Sun.
Examples: Apollo (Greek), Ra (Egyptian), Adaheli (Surinam), Adrammelech (Babylonian), Vahagn (Armenian), Ah Kinchil (Mayan), and Brono (Norse).

The Celestial Queen
A counterpart to the sun god is the goddess of the night who is usually represented by the moon. The celestial queen is known for being beautiful, arrogant, and haughty. She is associated with activities that occur at night, hunting, and storytelling, or with lovers. Artemis of Greek tradition is the most well-known goddess of this sort.
Alignment: Lawful neutral.
Suggested Domains: Air, knowledge, Protection, Magic and Trickery.
Examples: Artemis (Greek), Ira (Polynesian), Anahit (Armenian), Coyolxuahqui (Aztec).

Keeper of the Dead
The god is usually a male figure that rules over the land of the dead. It should be noted that this doesn’t necessitate that the god is evil. The Egyptian Osiris was well respected and loved. The god naturally invokes a certain amount of fear. This god manages a place where the dead go, particularly those souls that did not make it to Heaven.
Alignment: Always chaotic, usually good or neutral.
Suggested Domains: Any.
Examples: Osiris (Egyptian), Hades/Pluto (Greek/Roman), Hel (Norse), Aita (Etruscan), Mictlantecutli (Aztec), and Hun Came/Vucub Caquix (Mayan).

[avr]

That's certainly doable. The players will presumably interact with members of specific cults rather than the general concept so make sure you have some idea what a few of those are like in the core of the campaign area. You've got enough info to generate cults between sessions, but you'll probably want to have at least a couple ready to go if the players start asking favors of a local cleric or if they suddenly need someone to cast remove curse.

[nick_crenshaw]

-Bump up.-