Campaign rules for a tier 3-4 lower magic campaign?

[gadren]

DRAFT 5:
For those new to the thread, I'm working on a campaign setting that is lower in magic saturation (but still high compared to most fantasy literature) and changes some of the expectations of a D&D game. The goal is for it to not be dominated by spellcasters and over-dependent on magic items, while still allowing the players the rich breadth of options of 3.5 and Pathfinder. This is accomplished by doing two things:
-Keeping all classes to tiers 3 and 4, through adjustment or outright ban
-Increasing the rarity of powerful magic items, and re-balancing around the expectations that necessitate certain types magic items (such as the whole idea that you need a death ward item, a mind blank item, an item that lets you fly, etc.).
I welcome any constructive criticism as I continue to build this campaign setting:

Brief Description:
Legends say that powerful mages and mystical creatures were once much more common in Bardawil, but many say that is just that, a legend. True or not, while magic is still evident in the world, it is either less powerful, or more difficult to understand than it once was, or both. As a result, many people in Bardawil are superstitious about magic, and even those who have dedicated their life to it learn to survive without it when it fails.
Bardawil is a beautiful but treacherous place. Animals are bigger and stronger there than on Earth, the mountains are taller, and the weather is more dangerous. Monsters lurk in the forests that men avoid, and the mysterious fey can be great allies or terrible enemies depending on their whim. Only the hardiest folk survive til adulthood.

Campaign rules:
This is a Pathfinder game that also allows 3.5 rules. By default, if a Pathfinder version exists of something from 3.5, use the Pathfinder version. There may be some exceptions.
Anything printed in the official D&D or Pathfinder books that is not explicitly banned below is allowed. Most material from Dreamscarred press, WotC Web Enhancements and Articles, and some Dragon Magazine and other Third Party content is allowed, but must be approved by the DM before being used at the table. Any 3.5 material should be run through the Pathfinder Conversion Guide.
Follow the rules for a standard Pathfinder game except as detailed below:

CHARACTER CREATION CHANGES:
Ability Scores: Determined using standard Pathfinder 15-point buy, but you get a +3 bonus to constitution, +2 to strength, and +2 to dexterity as all races in Bardawil have evolved to be more physically fit to survive the realm's harsh demands.

Natural Enhancement Bonus: At level 3, choose one ability score. This score receives an enhancement bonus equal to 1+1/3 your character level. At level 4, choose a second ability score. That ability score receives an enhancement bonus equal to 1/4 your character level.
If either chosen ability score is a physical attribute, increase the enhancement bonus by 1.

Finesse: All characters may use their dexterity modifier instead of their strength modifier for attack rolls with light weapons or other finesseable weapons. The Weapon Finesse feat is instead replaced with the Deadly Agility feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) any time it would be granted as bonus feat. Unchained Rogue's Finesse training (Dex instead of Str mod to damage with one finesseable weapon) instead uses 1.5 times your dexterity modifier for damage with the chosen weapon. Add quarterstaff to the list of finesseable weapons.

Skills: Add one skill of your choice to your list of class skills at character creation. Gain one additional skill point per level. Finally, choose one skill to be your "gifted" skill - this skill always has max ranks +2 in it without you having to put any points in.

Skill Competence Bonus: Starting at level 2, pick one ability score. All skills modified by that ability score receive a competence bonus equal to 1/2 your character level. At level 3, and every 3 levels thereafter, you may pick one additional skill that is not tied to the chosen ability score to receive the same competence bonus.

Hit Points: Gain 10 bonus hit points at first level. Instead of rolling for class hitdice, you always get the maximum result for your class.

Courage Bonus: Starting at level 3, all characters get a morale bonus to AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will equal to 1/3 their character level, and a morale bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls equal to 1/4 their character level.

So the following doesn't really have anything to do with re-balancing classes or magic items, it has more to just do with the flavor of the campaign world:

RACES OF BARDAWIL
The humanoid races of Bardawil fall into 4 categories: humans, fey, cursed, and half-bloods

Humans:
Humans control most of civilization in Bardawil, and can be encountered anywhere on the continent. They are said to be the most populous race, but it is hard to say for sure when compared to the Cursed.
Humans have formed a variety of cultures, so not many accurate generalizations can be made about them. Most humans (though not necessarily most human adventurers) have a complete absence of magic in their blood, making them completely incapable of wielding any kind of supernatural powers at all. As a result, many humans tend to distrust magic, adventurers, and all non-human peoples.
Humans greatest strength is their adaptability. Unlike the Fey, they are not physiologically bound to one location or lifestyle, and can excel at doing whatever they choose to do with their lives.
Rules Changes: In addition to the standard bonuses for being human, humans gain:
- Traits: humans get two bonus traits at character creation (for four total), and are allowed to take multiple traits from the same list.
- Mundane Blood (optional): Humans may choose to start play with Mundane Blood. A character with mundane blood cannot cast spells, manifest psionic powers, use psionic or spell-like abilities, or use any supernatural abilities. They also have a -5 penalty to Use Magic Device checks, but are otherwise not penalized for using magic items (even wands and scrolls, if they can make the skill check with the penalty).
However, Mundane-Blooded characters may roll twice on any saving throw they make against spells, psionic powers, suernatural abilities, or psionic or spell-like abilities, and if they are not normally allowed a save, they may attempt a DC 30 save (GM decides if Fortitude, Reflex, or Will is most appropriate) to negate the effect.
A human with Mundane Blood can lose that quality in the course of play by making certain pacts with supernatural entities. There are no known ways for one without Mundane Blood to later gain that quality.

Fey:
Dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes... basically all non-human humanoids in Bardawil (other than half-bloods, reptilians, goblinoids, and orcs) are actually just different aspects of the same race: the Fey. Fey are a supernatural race connected to the Ley Lines that crisscross the whole world; which Ley Line intersection a Fey is born closest to determines its aspect - the aspect of the parents is irrelevant. For example, the Ley Lines under Mt. Tuma'Nigoyah resonate with an energy that is attuned to Dwarven fey. All Fey born on Tuma'Nigoyah are therefore Dwarves, even if their parents were Elves.
All Fey age at the same rate as and eat and sleep as much as humans of the same age until they reach adolescence. After that, they age at only a tenth of the human rate and require only a forth as much food and sleep as long as they stay within 20 miles of their place of birth. If they stray further than that, they age, eat, and sleep as a human until they return.
Fey are also attuned to their native environment, regardless of their distance from their birth place. This mystical connection grants them a small amount of supernatural power while in their attuned terrain.
A new Fey cannot be conceived until another Fey has died somewhere in the world, keeping their numbers low when compared to the ever-growing numbers of Humans and Cursed. The Fey believe this is proof that all Fey that die are reincarnated as a new Fey soon after, and simply can't remember their past lives.
Rules Changes: All humanoid races OTHER than humans, half-elves, half-orcs, reptilian humanoids, goblinoid humanoids, and orcs gain the following in addition to their standard racial traits:
- Type changes to fey. However, they are also still affected by any effect that only works on humanoids (such as charm person, enlarge person, hold person, etc.)
- Gain the Fey Magic racial trait (as described for Elves in Heroes of the Wild, but without replacing another racial trait). The selected terrain type must match the Fey's place of birth.
- Gain the Favored Terrain feature (as if a 3rd level ranger). The selected terrain must be the same as for Fey Magic.
- Any caster level the Fey has is boosted by +2 while within 20 miles of their birthplace.

Cursed:
Reptilians, goblinoids, and orcs are part of a race called the Cursed. They were once Fey, but they lost their connection to the Ley Lines long ago. There are many contradicting folktales about how this happened, but no one seems to know for certain what the true story of the Cursed's origin is. The Cursed possess a lower capacity for empathy and a natural inclination toward aggression. Though some are able to control their brutish nature, most cursed seem to live in a constant state of fight or flight and are always on the lookout for potential enemies.
The cursed age twice as fast and eat twice as much as humans. Most meet violent ends before reaching middle age, but since the Cursed always give birth to twins, triplets, or quadruplets and do so frequently, they never seem to be in danger of going extinct.
Rule Changes: All goblinoid humanoids, reptilian humanoids, and orcs gain the following:
- type changes to humanoid (cursed)
- gains a +2 bonus to perception, stealth, and bluff, and a +5 bonus to intimidation
- all Cursed start with the Sneak Attack feature as if a 1st level rogue, except their sneak attack only does 1d3 damage
- Mundane Blood (optional): Cursed may choose to start play with Mundane Blood. A character with mundane blood cannot cast spells, manifest psionic powers, use psionic or spell-like abilities, or use any supernatural abilities. They also have a -5 penalty to Use Magic Device checks, but are otherwise not penalized for using magic items (even wands and scrolls, if they can make the skill check with the penalty).
However, Mundane-Blooded characters may roll twice on any saving throw they make against spells, psionic powers, suernatural abilities, or psionic or spell-like abilities, and if they are not normally allowed a save, they may attempt a DC 30 save (GM decides if Fortitude, Reflex, or Will is most appropriate) to negate the effect.
A Cursed with Mundane Blood can lose that quality in the course of play by making certain pacts with supernatural entities. There are no known ways for one without Mundane Blood to later gain that quality.

Half-Bloods:
Also called "half-breeds, mutts, mongrels" and other less-than-polite names, Half-Bloods are those people of Bardawil that have mixed ancestry. Most often, half of that ancestry is human, but it is not unheard of for one to have a mix of Fey and Cursed ancestry with no human parentage. Half-bloods eat, sleep, and age the same as humans.
There are two types of Half-Bloods: the Half-Fey and the Jinxed.

Half-Fey: "Half-Fey" refers to those that have human and fey parentage. Just as with the full-blooded Fey parent, a Half-Fey's aspect is determined by where they are born, not what their Fey parent is. For example, the child of a human and an elf that is born on the Dwarven mountain of Tuma'Nigoyah would be a half-dwarf.
Rule Changes: The Half-Elf race is changed as follows:
-Is called "Half-Fey" instead of "Half-Elf"
-Lose human and elf subtypes and elf language.
-Choose your fey aspect (dwarf, elf, gnome, etc). Your physical appearance is a mix between human and your chosen fey aspect. If your chosen fey aspect is small-sized, you may choose to be small-sized at character creation (this choice is permanent).
-Elf Blood is renamed "Fey Blood", and allows you to be treated as a human and your selected fey aspect for the purposes of this feature. You also have those subtypes.
-Lose Elven Immunities. Gain one racial trait of your choice (including alternate racial traits, but other than ability score bonuses) from your chosen Fey Aspect and from the human race.

Jinxed: "Jinxed" refers to those with a mix of Cursed parentage and either human or Fey heritage. The Jinxed have very diverse physical appearances based on their parentage, place of birth, and just plain luck. Some look grotesque, some look exotic, some are shorter than halflings and others stand over seven feet tall. The "Jinxed" probably have the most difficult time fitting in anywhere in Bardawil, as they are generally treated as outcasts in almost every society on the continent.
Rule Changes: The Half-Orc race is changed as follows:
-Is called "Jinxed" instead of "Half-Orc"
-Lose human and orc subtypes and orc language.
-Choose your Cursed heritage (orc, kobold, goblin, etc.), and your non-Cursed heritage (human or any fey aspect). Your physical appearance is a mix between your Cursed and non-Cursed heritage. If either of your heritages are from a small-sized race, you may choose to be small-sized at character creation (this choice is permanent). If both heritages are small-sized, then you must be small-sized.
-Orc Blood is renamed "Cursed Blood", and allows you to be treated as a member of both of your selected heritages for the purposes of this feature. You also gain the subtypes from both of your heritages.
-Change Weapon Ferocity's text so "orc" is replaced with one of your chosen heritages.
-Lose Orc Ferocity. Gain one racial trait of your choice (including alternate racial traits, but other than ability score bonuses) from your chosen Cursed Heritage and from your chosen non-Cursed heritage.
- Mundane Blood (optional): Jinxed may choose to start play with Mundane Blood. A character with mundane blood cannot cast spells, manifest psionic powers, use psionic or spell-like abilities, or use any supernatural abilities. They also have a -5 penalty to Use Magic Device checks, but are otherwise not penalized for using magic items (even wands and scrolls, if they can make the skill check with the penalty).
However, Mundane-Blooded characters may roll twice on any saving throw they make against spells, psionic powers, suernatural abilities, or psionic or spell-like abilities, and if they are not normally allowed a save, they may attempt a DC 30 save (GM decides if Fortitude, Reflex, or Will is most appropriate) to negate the effect.
A Jinxed with Mundane Blood can lose that quality in the course of play by making certain pacts with supernatural entities. There are no known ways for one without Mundane Blood to later gain that quality.

EDIT:
Level Adjusted races:
Level adjusted races do not get fewer class levels than other races, nor are they forced to start at a higher level. However, they have other restrictions to balance them out:

The following applies to all LA races:
Races with racial hitdice: Remove all racial hitdice.
Races with ability scores bonuses of more than +4: Reduce any ability scores bonus of +6 or higher to a +4.

The following applies to races with a specific level adjustment:
LA +1: If the race has more than a total of +4 in ability scores bonuses (including penalties), reduce the bonuses until the total is +4. Then, choose ONE of the following options: take a -2 penalty to an ability score of your choice, lose 1 feat, or take at least 1 level in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class.
LA +2: Take at least 2 levels in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class. At level 5, you may replace* one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level).
LA +3: Take at least 3 levels in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class. At level 6, you may replace* one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level). At level 9, you may give up your 9th level feat in exchange for replacing another level in your NPC class with a PC level.
LA +4 or More: Not allowed as a player race.
Level Adjustment Templates: LA +1 templates must take a level in an NPC class, and only templates approved by the GM for player use are allowed. The GM may alter the LA of a template for balance reasons.
*Replacing the NPC levels follows the level retraining process steps found on page 198 of the PHB2.
CLASS CHANGES:
Banned Classes: The following classes do not exist in Bardawil because there is insufficient magic or technology, or because they just don't fit the campaign: Arcanist, Archivist, Artificer, Binder, Cavalier*, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, Gunslinger**, Knight*, Marshall*, Oracle, Psion, Psychic, Shaman, Sorcerer, Soulknife, Summoner, Truenamer, Witch, Wizard
*The Cavalier, Knight, and Marshall are replaced by the Knight-Commander class. See below.
** Gunslingers are only allowed if they take the Bolt Ace archetype.

Banned Prestige Classes: The following prestige classes do not exist in Bardawil. (This is not a comprehensive list, please consult the DM when planning for any prestige classes. Most of these are here because they would bump at least one available casting class to too high of a tier.): Anarchic Initiate, Anima Mage, Divine Crusader, Dweomerkeeper, Halruaan Elder, Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Planar Shepherd, Rainbow Servant, Sentinel of Bharrai, Shadowcraft Mage, Sublime Chord, Tainted Scholar, Thrallherd, Ur-Priest, Void Disciple, Walker in the Waste


Nerfed Classes:
Favored Soul: Your levels in Favored Soul cannot exceed 3/4 of your character level. If you take a prestige class that advances your spellcasting level, it cannot allow you to exceed this 3/4 limitation.
Favored Souls typically start as Paladins or Crusaders, and multiclass from there.

Wilder: Availability of maximum power levels is delayed after 2nd level powers: 3rd level powers are available at level 7, 4th available at level 10, 5th available at level 12, 6th available at level 14, 7th available at level 16, and 8th available at level 18. Wilders do not learn 9th level powers. Gain one additional power known at 7th level.


Buffed Classes:
Barbarian and Bloodrager Changes:
At level 1, Barbarians and Bloodragers learn one 1st level stance and one 1st level strike from the Primal Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers) discipline. At every even level, they may learn another maneuver from the Primal Fury discipline, though they cannot learn a maneuver of higher level than half their character level. They may ready these maneuvers as a standard action, and they remain readied until performed. They have no limit to the number of Primal Fury maneuvers they can have readied, and use their full Barbarian/Bloodrager level as their initiator level.
Option: Any time the Barbarian/Bloodrager would learn a Primary Fury maneuver, they may choose to instead gain a bonus Combat Feat.
Brawler Changes:
1) At 1st level, choose any 6 disciplines from the Path of War and/or the Book of Nine Swords, these are your Brawler Disciplines. Learn a level 1 stance from one of your Brawler Disciplines.
2) At every level except 4, 8, 12, and 16, the brawler learns any one maneuver or stance of up to half the Brawler's level from his chosen Brawler Disciplines. The brawler must meet the maneuver's prerequisite(s), and uses his full brawler level as his initiator level. Readying any maneuver is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and it remains readied until performed. The number of brawler maneuvers the brawler can have readied at the same time is equal to 1+1/2 his initiator level.
3) Alternatively, a brawler may choose to instead gain a bonus Combat Feat whenever he would learn a new brawler maneuver.
Cavalier becomes Knight-Commander: This class takes the Cavalier class and adds the following:
The Marshal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b), Knight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2), and Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) classes are not allowed individually in the Bardawil setting. Instead, they are combined into a single class called the Knight-Commander. The Knight-Commander is identical to Pathfinder's Cavalier class, except for the following changes:

Knight-Commander is treated as a Marshal, Knight, and Cavalier for any game mechanics related specifically to class.
Knight-Commander has its base Will save bonus upgraded to the good progression (same as its Fortitude) and its hit-die upgraded to a d12.
Knight-Commander gains all class features of the Marshal class (in addition to the Cavalier's class features).
Knight-Commander also gains all class features of the Knight class EXCEPT for Knight's Code and Knight's Challenge (this also means she doesn't get any of the abilities that are a subset of Knight's Challenge, such as Test of Mettle and Call to Battle).
The Challenge class feature is different than described under the Cavalier description in that it does not have a daily use limit. Once the challenge class feature is used, it can be used again once ten minutes have passed or once the target of the Challenge is dead or unconscious.
At level 1, the Knight-Commander also gains Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) as a bonus feat. Once every ten minutes, she may use this feat as a move action instead of a standard action.
At level 2, the Knight-Commander also gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If she has a Dexterity of 13 or less, then Combat Reflexes grants her additional attacks of opportunity per round as if she had a Dexterity of 14.
At level 3, the Knight-Commander adds the following to her Bulwark of Defense class feature (in addition to its standard properties):
. - Whenever any enemy attacks one of the Knight-Commander's allies while in her threatened area, that
. . enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Knight-Commander
. - Whenever the target of her Challenge attacks one of the Knight-Commander's allies, but is NOT within
. . her threatened area, the Knight-Commander has the option of either taking a 5-foot step or moving up to
. . her full speed toward the target and then making an Attack of Opportunity. (It should be noted that
. . movement other than a 5-foot step still provokes attack of opportunities against the Knight-Commander
. . even when using this feature.)
At level 4, whenever initiative is rolled for combat, the Knight-Commander may use the Antagonize feat as a free action against multiple targets that she is aware of . The maximum number of enemies she can use Antagonize against during initiative is equal to 1+ her Charisma modifier.


Dread Necromancer: Gains the following:
1) Adds the following spells to its class spell list (All 0th level spells may be cast at-will): 0th: Deathwatch, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound (School changed to necromancy), Mage Hand (School changed to necromancy), Touch of Fatigue, Unnerving Gaze; 1st: Protection from Negative Energy; 2nd: Death Armor, Disguise Undead, Ghost Touch Armor, Hail of Ectoplasm, Summon Ghostly Ally I*, Undead Eyes; 3rd: Summon Ghostly Ally II*; 4th: Raise Ghost, Summon Ghostly Ally III*; 5th: Leech Ghost Skill, Summon Ghostly Ally IV*; 6th: Summon Ghostly Ally V*; 7th: Summon Ghostly Ally VI*; 8th: General of Undeath, Summon Ghostly Ally VII*; 9th: Summon Ghostly Ally VIII*
2) Loses Rebuke Undead, and gains the Channel Negative Energy class feature (as a Pathfinder Cleric) and Command Undead as a bonus feat.

*Summon Ghostly Ally: As Summon Nature's Ally of the same number, except only creatures with a charisma of 6 or higher may be summoned and have the Ghost template applied with the following modifications: hit points and AC are unchanged by the ghost template, no Rejuvenation ability, no modification to ability scores, and special attack is pre-set. Ghosts summoned with Summon Ghostly Ally I-III only have the Corrupt Touch attack. Summon Ghostly Ally of IV and above also gets Draining Touch.


Fighter: Gains the following:
1) At first level, the fighter gains the Combat Challenge feature. This works identically to the 4e fighter feature of the same name, except the penalty from the mark is equal to 1/2 your fighter level (minimum -1).
2) At every odd level besides 1st level, the fighter learns any one maneuver or stance of up to half the Fighter's level from any non-supernatural discipline in Path of War or Book of Nine Swords. The fighter must meet the maneuver's prerequisite(s), and uses his full fighter level as his initiator level. Readying any maneuver is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and it remains readied until performed. A fighter may have any number of fighter maneuvers he knows readied at the same time.
3) Alternatively, a fighter may choose to instead gain a bonus combat feat whenever he would learn a new fighter maneuver.

Healer: Gains the following:
1) Gains Channel Energy as a pathfinder cleric of the healer's class level, but performs it as a swift action.
2) Gains Spontaneous Casting as a good-aligned cleric, except they can use it to cast any spell from the healing subschool, not just cure spells.
3) Gain Reach Spell as a bonus feat at level 3.
4) Expand the spell list:
-Adds all spells from the healing subschool to the Healer's spell list, at lowest available spell level. (For example, Heal is now a 5th level spell for the Healer.)
-Adds all spells of up to 6th level from the Apostle of Peace's spell list to the Healer's spell list.
-Add the following offensive spells to the Healer's spell list: 1st: Lantern Light, Whelm ; 2nd: Faerinaal's Hymn, Whelming Blast ; 3rd: Capricious Zephyr, Searing Light ; 4th: Light of Xymor, Mass Whelm ; 5th: Heaven's Trumpet, Overwhelm; 6th: Bolt of Glory; 7th: Righteous Burst ; 8th: Last Judgement ; 9th: Heavenly Host
-Choose one of the following domains. Add all spells from that domain to your class spell list: Arborea (except Summon Monster Spells), Celestia (except Summon Monster Spells), Celestial, Community, Courage, Elysium (except Holy Word, Holy Smite, and Sunburst), Exorcism, Family, Glory, Good, Joy, Knowledge, Liberation, Life, Mysticism, Protection, Repose, Sun

Monk: Choose between being an Enlightened Monk or a Disciplined Monk
Enlightened Monk -
1) Gain hidden talent as a bonus feat at level 1.
2) At every level except 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17, gain power points and powers known as if you had taken a level in psychic warrior. Your manifester level is equal to your monk level.
Disciplined Monk -
1) At 1st level, choose any 8 disciplines from the Path of War and/or the Book of Nine Swords, these are your Monk Disciplines. Learn a level 1 stance from one of your Monk Disciplines.
2) At every level except 4, 8, 12, and 16, the monk learns any one maneuver or stance of up to half the Monk's level from any of their chosen monk disciplines. The monk must meet the maneuver's prerequisite(s), and uses his full monk level as his initiator level. Readying any monk maneuver is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and it remains readied until performed. If the monk has a ki pool, he may ready a maneuver as a swift action by spending one ki point. The maximum number of monk maneuvers the monk can have readied at the same time is equal to 1+1/3 his initiator level.
3) Alternatively, a monk may choose to instead gain a bonus combat feat whenever he would learn a new monk maneuver.

Rogue: Gains the following:
1) All rogues with the Trapfinding feature gain the Trap Spotter talent as a bonus talent at 1st level.
2) Rogues add their full level instead of half their level to determine their Trapfinding bonus.
3) Rogues receive a bonus to perception checks to determine awareness for surprise rounds equal to half their rogue level.
4) Once every 10 minutes, when the rogue or an ally adjacent to the rogue would be hit by a trap, an attack from a hidden opponent, or an attack made during a surprise round, the rogue may add their rogue level to the target's AC or applicable saving throw against the trap or attack.
5) At level 3, gain a second "gifted" skill. Any points already put into the skill are refunded and must be spent on other skills immediately.

Shadowcaster: Gains the following:
1) Bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)
2) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.
3) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.
4) Gain a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete (instead of half).
5) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path.
6) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha.

Slayer Changes:
1) Slayers start with Sneak Attack +1d6 at level 1, and increases their Sneak Attack class feature by 1d6 every two levels thereafter.
2) At every even level, the Slayer gains Hide in Plain Sight (as the Rogue Talent). This is in addition to the Slayer talents they gain at the same levels.
3) At level 3, Slayers may apply some of their Sneak Attack damage to their Studied Target even if the attack normally wouldn't qualify for a Sneak Attack. For every 2 points that their attack roll surpassed the target's AC, they may add +1d6 Sneak Attack damage, up to a maximum of the Slayer's total Sneak Attack dice.
Swashbuckler: This class is identical to the Pathfinder Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler)class, except for the following changes:

Counts as both the 3.5 and Pathfinder version of the Swashbuckler for the purpose of any game mechanics related specifically to class.
Gains all features of the 3.5 Swashbuckler, except Insightful Strike and Grace are changed as follows:
. - Insightful Strike is renamed "Sly Flourish" and uses 1/2 charisma modifier instead of the full intelligence modifier.
. - Grace is renamed "Steel Liver" and applies the competence bonus to Fortitude instead of Reflex. For feat prerequisites,
. . the Swashbuckler is considered to have a Grace feature of the same bonus as his Steel Liver.
At level 7, the swashbuckler may make 1 immediate action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.
At level 14, the swashbuckler may make 1 swift action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.

Warlock: is modified as follows:
Warlock patrons and pacts rules:
All warlocks in Bardawil gain their powers from an eldritch pact. Most of the time, the warlock is the one who makes this pact in the first place, but occasionally a pact is instead inherited by the progeny of another pact-maker. There are slight differences in the power of different warlocks, and these difference reflect the entity they made their pact with. Below are some options for specific patrons, along with special benefits for each patron. Using these patrons effects the warlock's alignment restrictions, modifies their eldritch blast, and provides access to reserve feats.

Alignment: each patron has a specific alignment, and warlocks typically have an alignment within one step of their patron. A warlock whose alignment is more than one step from their patron often finds their personality subtly or overtly influenced by their patron's power, and must always fight against an undesired shift of their moral alignment. This has no mechanical effect - it is simply something for warlocks to consider as they roleplay. (This replaces the standard warlock's alignment restriction.)

Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks have the option to modify their eldritch blast with patron-specific effects. The warlock may choose whether or not to apply this modification each time he uses his Eldritch Blast class feature.

Reserve Power: Warlock pacts also act as a power source for reserve feats in place of actual spells. Each patron has a list of spell types that the warlock is always considered to have available for the purpose of reserve feats (and only for that purpose, with the exception of the Pact Spell feat [see below]). Their effective spell level is equal to 1 + the number of dice of damage the warlock's eldritch blast does.

Bonus feats: Pact warlocks gain a bonus feat at class levels 1, 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. This feat must be a reserve feat, the Pact Spell feat, the Eldritch Follow-Up feat, or the Eldritch Reach feat.


New Feats:

PRACTICED INVOKER Prerequisite: Knowledge of at least one invocation. Benefit: Your effective caster level for the chosen invocation-using class increases by four. This benefit can't increase your effective caster level higher than your Hit Dice. In addition, any damage-dealing supernatural or spell-like abilities for the chosen invocation-using class deal damage as if your class level was four levels higher (though, again, no higher than your Hit Dice.) Even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, however, if you later gain levels of non-invoking classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
A character with two or more invocation-using classes (such as a warlock/dragonfire adept) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This feat does not affect your invocations known nor the maximum grade of invocation you may learn. It only increases your effective caster level (which helps you overcome spell resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your invocations), and the damage of your chosen class's supernatural and spell-like abilities.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different manifesting class

PACT SPELL Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 1d6, Reserve Power class feature. Benefit: Choose two different spells that each have the same school, subschool or descriptor as the spells described under your Reserve Power class feature, and are of a level lower than the total number of dice of damage done by your Eldritch Blast class feature (not counting bonus dice from magic items, sneak attack, etc). You can cast each of these chosen spells once per day as a spell-like ability. Special: You may take this feat more than once. You must choose different spells each time.

ELDRITCH FOLLOW-UP Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 3d6, Reserve Power class feature, at least one reserve feat. Benefit: In any round that you have used your Eldritch Blast, you may use a reserve power feat that normally takes a standard action as a swift action instead. If you do so, the effective spell level of your reserve is reduced by 3 for that action.

ELDRITCH REACH Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 2d6, Reserve Power class feature, at least one reserve feat that requires a touch attack. Benefit: When you hit with an Eldritch Blast attack, you may reduce the Eldritch Blast damage by 2d6 to apply the effects of one reserve feat that normally must be delivered by a touch attack (not a ranged touch attack) to the target. If you do so, the effective spell level of your reserve is reduced by 2 for that action.


PATRONS:

Al-Qanun:
(Lawful Neutral)
A powerful Djinn punished long ago for an unknown crime by an unknown entity, Al-Qanun's body was turned into storm clouds and blown to the corners of the world by the four winds. Those who know the secrets of his punishment ritual are able to use it to gain Al-Qanun as a patron. It is rumored that if a warlock that has made a pact with Al-Qanan becomes too powerful, the Djinn will be set free and the warlock will be the one scattered by the four winds.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks of Al-Qanun have the option of dealing electricity damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +2 bonus to it's attack roll against opponents wearing metal armor or that are made of metal. Their unmodified blasts look like miniature cyclones, while their modified blasts look like bolts of lightning.
Reserve Power: Warlocks of Al-Qanun are considered to always have spells with the air, electricity, and sonic descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

"The Twin":
(Chaotic Neutral)
Coterminous with the reality of Bardawil is another plane of existence called Liwadrab, the plane of shadows, reflections, and dreams. Superstition says that every mirror is a portal to Liwadrab, and this isn't far off - at the hands of those who know the right magic, any mirror can become a window or door into this other plane. If one makes the mistake of looking at at their own reflection in the mirror as it is transformed into a portal, they are greeted by "the Twin". The twin's true name, form, age and motives are unknown. It prefers to tell people what they want to hear rather than the truth, and is a very convincing liar. It claims to be able to see any place and any time, and offers to show what it sees to any who ask, but only those who ask exactly the right way are shown the truth.
"The twin" is very happy to make a pact with any willing warlock, though it is rumored that all that have made such a pact are actually trapped in Liwadrab and replaced by some sort of doppelgänger.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Twin-pact warlocks have the option of turning their eldritch blast into an illusion. These modified blasts use d10s instead of d6s for damage and automatically hit, but are treated as an illusion (shadow) spell-like-ability and allow a Will save (DC 10 + half the caster level + charisma modifier). A successful will save reduces the damage to 2 damage per die.
Both the modified and unmodified versions of a twin-pact warlock's eldritch blast appear identical: a 2-dimensional, 2 foot wide stream of inverted color.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Enchantment and Divination schools as well as spells with the glamer, polymorph, and teleportation descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Charn:
(True Neutral)
When someone dies in Bardawil, their souls go to the Five Rivers of Daseh, which take them to their afterlife. Some lose their way, and it is Charn's duty to guide lost souls back down the Five Rivers to their final rest. Charn is the most ancient of all the Warlock patrons, requiring the light of a living mortal's soul to ignite his lanterns with which he searches for the Lost. In exchange for that small piece of soul, Charn gave a small piece of himself, granting the mortal some of his power until it was their turn to descend to Daseh.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Charn-pact warlocks have the option of dealing cold damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +1 bonus to damage per die. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of supernaturally cold water from the Five Rivers, while their unmodified blast looks like a shadowy missile that trails a tail of graveyard fog.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Necromancy school and Death domain as well as spells with the cold and water descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Vulcaestus:
(Chaotic Neutral)
A primordial being as old as existence, Vulcaestus yearns to burn and destroy. Imprisoned beneath the earth, Vulcaestus's ability to satiate his devastating hunger is usually limited to volcanic eruptions, so the opportunity to transfer a bit of his essence and ruinous power to warlocks wandering the mortal world excites him. Rumors say that those who make a pact with Vulcaestus are slowly consumed by a madness that drives them to wanton destruction.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Vulcaestian-pact warlocks have the option of dealing fire damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +1 bonus to damage per die. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of fire, while their unmodified blasts look like hurled stones glowing with magical force.
Reserve Power: Vulcaestian-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Destruction domain as well as spells with the fire, earth, and force descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Volgna-Gath:
(Chaotic Evil)
An ancient, powerful, horrifying aberration, Vulgna-Gath is a slimy shape-shifting mass that is summoned with an invocation that mixes special mud with the blood of a warlock. Vulgna-Gath's ultimate goals (if it has any) are unknown, but those bound to it develop an intense affinity for darkness and are driven to seek out ways of summoning Vulgna-Gath's slimy progeny into the world.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks that have made a pact with Volgna-Gath have the option of dealing acid damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage. Their acid-augmented eldritch blasts also inflict a stacking -1 penalty to a target's AC on a hit, lasting for 1 minute. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of crimson acid, while their unmodified blast looks like a ray of utter darkness.
Reserve Power: Warlocks that have made a pact with Volgna-Gath are considered to always have spells with the acid, darkness, and summoning descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Arvandra:
(Chaotic Good)
A radiant archfey of unearthly beauty, Arvandra cannot be looked at directly by a mortal without being struck blind. Arvandra has eyes that glow with the intense light of the sun and is always surrounded by motes of light that look just like stars. Arvandra posses potent power of revitalization and protection, and will happily share these powers as part of a pact. However, this fey is notoriously possessive - Arvandra thinks of those who accept the pact as pets at best or possessions at worst. There are many tales in Bardawil folklore about terrible things happening to the lovers of those who've been bound to Arvandra, no doubts victims of the powerful spirit's jealously.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Arvandran-pact warlocks have the option of changing their eldritch blast into what appears to be a beam of searing light. When so modified, their eldritch blast uses d10s instead of d6s for damage dice, but only does lethal damage to undead (and nonlethal damage to anything else). Their unmodified blasts look like a shooting star.
Reserve Power: Arvandran-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Abjuration school as well as spells with the healing and light descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Mephithuselah:
(Lawful Evil)
Once a great general of the angelic knights of the celestial realms, Mephithuselah's thirst for death and destruction became too great. He was out because of his wrath, and defect to the Infernal legions. Interested in any possible advantage in his eternal war, Mephithuselah is more than willing to spread his powers of death and destruction to willing hosts in exchange for his influence.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks that have made a pact with Mephithuselah have the option of dealing force damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage. Their force-augmented eldritch blasts use d4's instead of d6's for damage and are negated by any effect that stops a magic missile, but otherwise hit without needing an attack roll. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a lance of force, while their unmodified blast looks like a ray of red-orange light.
Reserve Power: Warlocks that have made a pact with Mephithuselah are considered to always have spells with the acid, darkness, and summoning descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.
Warmage: Gains the following:
The original warmages were the Seven Sorcerers of the Burya Empire, who stole their power from the Great Wyrm Nidhongand centuries ago (after she was slain by the prophet Do'Brynia). To this day, at least 9 out of every 10 warmages in Bardawil has blood infused with draconic power, whether by ancestry or ritual, but other bloodlines are not unheard of.

Warmage Bloodlines:
Warmages choose one sorcerer bloodline from the list below, and gain its benefits as if they were a sorcerer of their warmage level, with the exception of the bloodline's bonus spells. Warmages gain the bonus spells for their bloodline unless a bonus spell is already on the warmage spell list or is a non-evocation spell of 6th level or higher. In either case, the warmage chooses a different spell as their bonus spell, which must be an evocation spell of the same level as the denied bonus spell, from the Sorcerer spell list .

Warmage Bloodline Options:
-Draconic (Most common)
-Arcane
-Djinni
-Efreeti
-Elemental
-Marid
-Orc
-Shadow
-Shaitan
-Starsoul
-Stormborn

Warmage Archetypes:
Warmages can take any sorcerer archetype that they qualify for after replacing any mention of "sorcerer" in the archetype with "warmage"

Sorcerer conversion:
In Bardawil, any game mechanic that is specifically for sorcerers is instead specifically for warmages, with the exception of the Sorcerer spell list. (For example, a race's favored class bonus for sorcerers instead applies to warmages, the Draconic Heritage feats have a warmage level as a prerequisite instead of a sorcerer level, etc., but the Wish spell is NOT changed from Sorcerer 9 to Warmage 9.)

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST:

[gadren]

Changed Class Features:
Advanced Learning: This ability is also leveled up by anything that levels up spellcasting independently of character class. For example, a warmage 5/ frost mage 1 would still benefit from both her level 3 and level 6 advanced learning benefits.

Alternate Class Features:
These are in addition to the existing published alternate class features and class archetypes.

Dread Necromancer:
Divine Necromancer - A divine necromancer learns and casts spells as a dread necromancer - with some minor exceptions. A divine necromancer's spells are divine spells, not arcane spells.
To learn or cast a spell, a divine necromancer must have a Wisdom score (not Charisma score) equal to at least 10 + the spell level. All other Spellcasting factors, including bonus spells and save DCs, are still determined using the divine necromancer's Charisma score.
Divine necromancers need not designate a specific deity as the source of their spells. However, they can't cast spells of an alignment that opposes their own.

Spirit Guide - Spirit Guides are Dread Necromancers of good or neutral alignments. They call upon lost souls and give them a way to perform penance so that they may one day find their way to the afterlife, and act as an intermediary between the living and the dead. Spirit Guides can be recognized by the large amount of water they carry with them - they need at least 3 gallons to cast their spells, which they can transmute into water from the Five Rivers of Daseh to draw spirits to them.

Spirit Guides remove the following spells from the spell list: Blight, Contagion, Death Armor, Death Knell, Eyebite, General of Undeath, Giant Vermin, Imprison Soul, Insect Plague, Summon Swarm, Undetectable Alignment, Unhallow, Vile Death

Spirit Guides also lose the following class features: Scabrous Touch, Craft Wondrous Item

Spirit Guides add the following spells to their spell list: 0th: Detect Ghost; 1st: Charm Ghost, Incorporeal Disharmonics, Pleasant Visage, Protection from Possession; 2nd: Delay Manifestation, Ethereal Alarm, Ghost Companion, Ghost Lock, Persuade to Manifest; 3rd: Death Lock, Forced Incorporeality, Forced Manifestation; 4th: Dispel Possession, Proper State, Song of the Calling; 5th: Dominate Ghost, Hallow; 9th: Astral Projection

Spirit Guides modifies the following class features:

Charnel Touch: The Spirit Guide can choose to do nonlethal damage with this power. At level 6, Charnel Touch also fatigues a touched target for 1 round. At level 11, it exhausts a touched target for 1 round.
Lich Body: Is renamed Spirit Armor, and has nothing to do with turning into a lich.
Summon Familiar: The only option available from this list is a ghostly visage. However, the Spirit Guide may instead choose any familiar with a charisma of 6 or higher that is available to a wizard of the same level as the Spirit Guide, but with the Ghost template applied to that familiar.
Lich Transformation: Is renamed Haunted, and applies the Haunted One template instead of the Lich Template. The rider's alignment matches the Spirit Guide's alignment, and it is unable to harm the Spirit Guide in any way.

Spirit Guides have their spells changed as follows:
Deathwatch: Loses the evil descriptor.
Summon Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Any undead summoned by this spell have at least 6 intelligence and a fragmented memory of their life. Their alignment remains what it was in life instead of being changed to evil. Any corporeal undead summoned by this spell instead takes the form of a dark water elemental that mirrors how the chosen undead creature would have looked in life, reflecting the visage of the spirit on its surface instead of reflecting the world around it. (For example, instead of a human warrior skeleton, you summon a water elemental that looks like the human warrior.) The chosen undead has the same combat statistics as its normal form, except its attacks deal cold damage, it gains the elemental subtype, it loses any DR it normally has, and gains DR 5/bludgeoning. Incorporeal undead do not have their statistics changed except for alignment, but their appearance changes subtly so they are more recognizable to those who may have known them.
Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Plague of Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Though the spell still requires the physical remains, they are not animated nor disturbed by the spell. Undead created by these spells are altered as described above for Summon Undead.
Magus:
- Robed Magus - You may give up the Magus's armor proficiencies and ability to ignore spell failure chance in armor. In exchange, you gain a bonus magus arcana and 2 bonus points for your arcane pool at 1st level, 7th level, and 13th level.

- Academy Magus - This is actually an archetype package. You gain the benefits and drawbacks of both the Robed Magus and Staff Magus archetypes. In addition, the Academy Magus may treat any game mechanic that is specifically for wizards instead as specifically for academy magi, with the exception of the Wizard spell list. (For example, a race's favored class bonus for wizards instead applies to academy magi, the Spell Mastery feat requires a level in academy magus instead of wizard, etc. wizard spells must still be learned via Spell Blending.)
Ranger:
- Changes to Battle Scout, Skirmisher, Trapper, and Urban Ranger - In addition to their printed benefits and drawbacks, these four archetypes gain 2 skill points per level, add disable device to their list of class skills, and gain all class features from the 3.5 Scout class except for Battle Fortitude.

SKILL CHANGES:

Concentration - The 3.5 version of the Concentration skill is used in this campaign instead of the Pathfinder version of concentration rules. Spellcasters may use their main spellcasting ability score instead of constitution for Concentration checks.
Once per day, a character with at least 10 ranks in Concentration may meditate for 10 minutes to gain the benefit of the Clarity of Mind spell for themself as an extraordinary ability. If they have at least 15 ranks in Concentration, they also gain the benefits of Mind Blank as an extraordinary ability. The "caster level" for both of these effects is equal to the character's number of ranks in Concentration.

Escape Artist - A character with at least 10 ranks in the Escape Artist skill is very hard to restrain. Once per ten minutes, as a free action, they may grant themself the benefit of the Freedom of Movement spell (except as an extraordinary ability) for 1 round. If they have the Skill Focus (Escape Artist) feat, they may instead do this up to three times per ten minutes.

Heal - A character can benefit from the Treat Deadly Wounds use of this skill a number of times per day equal to their character level. A character with 5 ranks or more in Heal can use Treat Deadly Wounds to replicate the effects of cure moderate wounds or lesser restoration as an extraordinary (non-magical) effect instead of the normal effects of the skill, though this still takes 1 hour to perform. A character with 10 ranks can instead replicate the effects of cure serious wounds or restoration. A character with 15 ranks can instead replicate the effects of cure critical wounds or greater restoration. The "caster level" for these effects is equal to the healer's ranks in the Heal skill. If a character has the Skill Focus (Heal) feat, they treat the bonus from that feat as extra ranks in Heal for the purpose of Treat Deadly Wounds, and can Treat Deadly Wounds in 10 minutes instead of 1 hour.

Knowledge (Arcana, Planes, or Religion) - A character with at least 7 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), or Knowledge (Religion) learns about the various loop holes in the Dark Arts, and can use these to ward themself or another character against death magic. This has the same mechanical effect as casting the Death Ward spell as a caster of the target's character level, but is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled. A character may do this a number of times per day equal to half the number of ranks they have in the appropriate knowledge skill. If they have 7 or more ranks in more than one appropriate skill, they use the skill with the most ranks, but gain one extra use of Death Ward per day per 7 ranks they have in the other appropriate skills.

Perception - A character with at least 5 ranks in Perception automatically pinpoints the location of any invisible creature within 15 ft, unless that creature has more ranks in Stealth than the character has in Perception. If the character has at least 10 ranks in Perception, the above pinpointing ability's range is increased to 30 ft. If the character has at least 15 ranks in Perception, the above pinpointing ability's range is increased to 60 ft. The bonuses from Skill Focus (Perception) and Skill Focus (Stealth) both count as ranks for the purposes of this pinpointing ability.

SPELL CHANGES:

Detect Magic, Identify, Arcane Sight, and Analyze Dweomer each have their spell level increased by 1.

Cure Minor Wounds is still available despite being removed in Pathfinder. However, it can NOT be cast infinite times per day like other 0-level spells. Instead, a caster may cast it a number of times per day equal to their caster level × their charisma or wisdom modifier (whichever is higher)

Levitation, Fly, and any other spell that grants a fly speed - Whenever flying due to a spell (even from polymorphing into a form with wings), you lose your dexterity bonus to AC and find yourself increasingly unstable every time you attack ; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows you to begin again at –1.
Furthermore, casting a spell, manifesting a power, or using a psionic or spell-like ability while flying requires a successful concentration check at a DC of 20 + twice the spell or power's level or it is lost and expended.
(It should also be noted that the above penalties also apply to any creature that has fly through any method, mundane or magical. The exception are animals with natural fly speeds and creatures for whom flying is their only movement method, such as lantern archons and will-o-wisps.)

Magic Jar: You cannot possess a body whose hitdice are greater than your caster level, nor can you possess a body with a type different than your own unless that body's type is animal, dragon, fey, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin.

All Conjuration (calling), Conjuration (summoning), Enchantment (Compulsion), and Necromancy spells: A creature that is currently under the control of another because of one of these types of spells is unable to use any ability it has to summon, spawn, call or otherwise create other monsters under its control.

All Death Spells and Effects - Whenever a spell of the death-subtype or other death effect would kill a target, the target is instead reduced to negative hit points, at exactly two hitpoints away from death. The target must immediately make an additional fortitude or will save (target's choice) at the death effect's original DC (or DC 30 if no save was allowed) or die.

CONDITION CHANGES:
Cowering, Dazed, Frightened, Nauseated, Stunned, Panicked, and Paralyzed - Whenever under the effect of one of these conditions at the start of their turn, a character may, as a free action, make a Will or Fortitude save (target's choice) against the original DC of the effect (or DC 30 if no save was allowed) to end the condition.


MAGIC ITEM CHANGES:
Magic items are rare, mysterious, complicated things in Bardawil. Minor magic items are fairly common, but difficult to tell apart from non-magical superstitious talismans. Powerful magic items are rare, sometimes dangerous, and often hold more secrets than are evident at first inspection. Even experienced spellcasters find the process of creating a new permanent magic item to be an arduous one, with temporary items such as potions and scrolls being comparatively easier.

This results in the following rules changes:
1) Identifying the properties of an item using the spellcraft skill is less reliable. Even on a successful check, there is a 15% chance of misidentifying a property, and a 30% chance of only partly identifying the properties of the item. For every point that the check exceeds the identification DC, these percentages are decreased by 1%.

2) Permanent magic items (as opposed to temporary items such as potions, scrolls, and wands) have gp values that increase exponentially with power level. To calculate the price of an item, use the formula 500+m^1.4, where m is 1/10 the original price.

3) The various Craft X feats have no xp cost, but do not halve the gp cost either. Crafting time is calculated based on the original price, before application of the 500+m^1.4 formula.

4) Crafting magic items with the Craft or Profession skill via the Master Craftsman feat applies a 25% discount to the original price before application of the 500+m^1.4 formula.

5) A small handful of Great Libraries exist in the world that include extensive collections on Spellcraft. An item crafter with access to one of these libraries while crafting is treated as if they had every spell on their spell list for the purpose of item crafting prerequisites.

6) Custom magic items may be made using the standard cost guidelines before applying the 500+m^1.4 formula. The guidelines differ in that adding the properties of one item to another costs 100% more (instead of 50% more), and a "slotless" magic item costs 200% more (instead of 100% more).

7) Each magic item "slot" other than weapons requires a 4-hour attunement period before the item worn in it starts working. If the item is removed and later put back on, it works immediately as long as that "slot" has not attuned to a different magic item since then.

8) Buying and Selling Magic Items: Magic items can be sold at any town with sufficient wealth for 20% of their value without trouble. Very few cities have large inventories of magic items for sale, and even the few that do mostly sell temporary items and trinkets. Any settlement is treated as if one category smaller for the purposes of determining what magic items and spellcasting can be purchased there, with the exception being one of those few settlements with a Great Library (which is instead treated as one category larger).

9) Wands: Wands can be crafted with as few as 10 charges and as many as 100, as the creator desires. A wand may be "recharged" by paying the same cost per charge as to create the wand in the first place.
Because staves are so much more difficult and costly to craft than wands, it is not uncommon for wands to be crafted that are the size of staves. These still function identically to a wand, they just may be used as a quarterstaff as well. Abilities that are written to work specifically with a staff also work with a "wand staff".

MISCELANIOUS CHANGES

Channel Positive/Negative Energy and Turn/Rebuke Undead: Any class with the Channel Positive Energy class feature also gains Turn Undead as a bonus feat. Any class with the Turn Undead class feature instead gains the Channel Positive Energy class feature and Turn Undead as a bonus feat. Any class with the Channel Negative Energy class feature also gains Command Undead as a bonus feat. Any class with the Rebuke Undead class feature instead gains the Channel Negative Energy class feature and Command Undead as a bonus feat.

Martial Adepts: All classes from the Book of Nine Swords may add 3 disciplines from the Path of War to their class's available disciplines. All classes from the Path of War may add 3 disciplines from the Book of Nine Swords to their class's available disciplines.

Flying creatures: Except for animals with natural fly speeds and creatures for whom flying is their only movement method (such as lantern archons and will-o-wisps), Whenever flying you lose your dexterity bonus to AC and find yourself increasingly unstable every time you attack ; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows you to begin again at –1.
Furthermore, casting a spell, manifesting a power, or using a psionic or spell-like ability while flying requires a successful concentration check at a DC of 20 + twice the spell or power's level or it is lost and expended.
(It should also be noted that the above penalties also apply to any creature that has fly through any method, mundane or magical. The exception are animals with natural fly speeds and creatures for whom flying is their only movement method, such as lantern archons and will-o-wisps.)

[OldTrees1]

Several classes have rather poorly designed class skill lists. Your "gifted skill" rule helps somewhat but things like the Fighter skill list could use some more help. Perhaps allow each player to have 2 "always class skill" skills that fit their background?

The Fighter buff of +1 maneuver/feat at even class levels is in addition to the existing Fighter Bonus feats correct at even class levels? (The overlap made it unclear if you were expanding their options or adding additional features)

I cannot calculate the impact of your exponential magic item costs change. However it is likely to worsen the tier of non casters as levels increase if not watched and accounted for (so I suggest watch it and account for it).
Edit: Seems like around a 0%, 33%, and eventually 75% magic wealth reduction as the PCs get higher level.

[Bucky]

Are Bolt Ace Gunslingers allowed?

Do Ninjas inherit the Rogue or Monk changes? Do Cavaliers/Samurai get initiating abilities also?

Are 3.5 prestige classes broadly updated to require fewer skill ranks in their highest tier of skills?

[gadren]

Several classes have rather poorly designed class skill lists. Your "gifted skill" rule helps somewhat but things like the Fighter skill list could use some more help. Perhaps allow each player to have 2 "always class skill" skills that fit their background? good point. I'll contemplate tweaking this.


The Fighter buff of +1 maneuver/feat at even class levels is in addition to the existing Fighter Bonus feats correct at even class levels? (The overlap made it unclear if you were expanding their options or adding additional features) That was a mistake, fixed now.


I cannot calculate the impact of your exponential magic item costs change. However it is likely to worsen the tier of non casters as levels increase if not watched and accounted for (so I suggest watch it and account for it).
Edit: Seems like around a 0%, 33%, and eventually 75% magic wealth reduction as the PCs get higher level.
Hmmm, perhaps I should discount certain types of enchantments for weapons and armor.

[gadren]

Are Bolt Ace Gunslingers allowed? I guess that'd fit, if someone was really keen on it.


Do Ninjas inherit the Rogue or Monk changes? Well Ninjas are alternate rogues, so they'd get the rogue changes.
Do Cavaliers/Samurai get initiating abilities also?
If a player was really keen on playing one, I'd consider buffing them. There are a lot of class options out there.


Are 3.5 prestige classes broadly updated to require fewer skill ranks in their highest tier of skills? this is covered in the Pathfinder Conversion Guide.

[OldTrees1]

Hmmm, perhaps I should discount certain types of enchantments for weapons and armor.

I would look at the List of Necessary Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) since lots of those effects are available as spells for casters but non casters need specific races/prestige classes to gain them without resorting to those magic items. Some of these effects(like Stun immunity) you can choose to avoid in your choice of encounters but others(like Flight) will be introduced by the casters. Now your slowed/restrained casting on the casters will make these things pop up later than normal(so that gives you some leeway).


Offering a discount on some types of magic item can work, but the players would need to know the price change in order to consider buying it.
Dropping the magic items as loot is another solution. It lets you decide with additional information from after the campaign has started.
As I mentioned with stun, sometimes you can tailor what is needed by controlling what CR to start placing encounters than include that need.
Some cases might not need adjustment. For example one needs magic weapons to harm incorporeal creatures however the cost of a +1 weapon only changed from 2300 to 2525.
everything I forgot to list

[gadren]

I added automatic enhancement bonuses to ability scores, competence bonuses to skills, and luck bonuses to AC, Saves, and attack/damage rolls. This should help to keep non casters from falling behind the casters.


I would look at the List of Necessary Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) ...

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[Firest Kathon]

Regarding the automatic enhancement bonuses, Paizo has released a similar system called Automatic Bomus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) in Pathfinder Unchained. Not saying this is better than your approach, I just wanted to make you aware of it. Also some interesting things to look at are Scaling Magic Items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/scaling-magic-items) (which become more powerful as the character levels up) and Innate Item Bonuses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/innate-item-bonuses) which get rid of the boring +X items completely.

[Honest Tiefling]

I added automatic enhancement bonuses to ability scores, competence bonuses to skills, and luck bonuses to AC, Saves, and attack/damage rolls. This should help to keep non casters from falling behind the casters.

What's to prevent a Magus or a Warpriest from benefiting just as much from these things? Admittedly, the class bonuses help, but the gishes/divine beatsticks seem like they'd be pretty good for this campaign. Especially Warpriest (Or a divine Dread Necromancer) because with their beefy Wis bonus, they could take the Cosmopolitan feat to get perception as a class skill. Or use that bonus class skill to pick up perception. I would not be surprised if everyone had insane perception scores.

I could imagine stacking Breadth of Experience with the Skill Competence bonus. Suddenly, the character has Int mod + 2 + 1/2 character levels to all knowledge skills, even without investing ranks into any of the skills to wreck knowledge skills. If this is a bug or a feature is up to the DM, and does involve eating up a precious feat.

Perhaps introduce a lot of magical substances to the world? I don't know if a suit of un-enchanted super-mithril is more fitting for the world then armor +2 or not.

Admittedly, making Detect Magic NOT be a cantrip is probably a very good idea...

[gadren]

I would look at the List of Necessary Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) since lots of those effects are available as spells for casters but non casters need specific races/prestige classes to gain them without resorting to those magic items. Some of these effects(like Stun immunity) you can choose to avoid in your choice of encounters but others(like Flight) will be introduced by the casters. Now your slowed/restrained casting on the casters will make these things pop up later than normal(so that gives you some leeway).


Offering a discount on some types of magic item can work, but the players would need to know the price change in order to consider buying it.
Dropping the magic items as loot is another solution. It lets you decide with additional information from after the campaign has started.
As I mentioned with stun, sometimes you can tailor what is needed by controlling what CR to start placing encounters than include that need.
Some cases might not need adjustment. For example one needs magic weapons to harm incorporeal creatures however the cost of a +1 weapon only changed from 2300 to 2525.
everything I forgot to list


I'm thinking that I'll probably weaken Death effects, make stun/daze easier to recover from, and nerf flying for everything except animals with natural fly speeds, making everything else more clumsy and heavy penalty-inducing (for example, a penalty to attack rolls and concentration while flying, and require concentration to cast spells while flying).

[Platymus Pus]

Could see Bard and Ranger shining for a change here.

[gadren]

Could see Bard and Ranger shining for a change here.
Bard is already tier 3, and ranger tier 4, which is in the desired range. Ranger perhaps could use a boost, but I feel like that's already covered by the hunter class?

[Honest Tiefling]

Bard is already tier 3, and ranger tier 4, which is in the desired range. Ranger perhaps could use a boost, but I feel like that's already covered by the hunter class?

I would say the hunter is more spell-castery, which is enough to entice/deter people. If you think the ranger might appeal to the potential players, I'd try to make a better spell-less version of it for the 'nature warrior feel who knows the land around them' feel without the spell casting. I could not tell you how many people I've encountered did not care or tried not to use the spells and tried to make the ranger into more of a warrior.

[gadren]

I would say the hunter is more spell-castery, which is enough to entice/deter people. If you think the ranger might appeal to the potential players, I'd try to make a better spell-less version of it for the 'nature warrior feel who knows the land around them' feel without the spell casting. I could not tell you how many people I've encountered did not care or tried not to use the spells and tried to make the ranger into more of a warrior.

I would probably just recommend the skirmisher ranger archetype or scout in that case, but it sounds like you have other suggestions on your mind?

[nedz]

Two of your Healer domains {Arborea, Celestia} are double domains. Is this intentional ?

[Honest Tiefling]

I would probably just recommend the skirmisher ranger archetype or scout in that case, but it sounds like you have other suggestions on your mind?

Hrm. I don't normally play rangers myself, but I do like the scout class thematically, but never got the chance to play one properly. From a quick glance, it seems to suffer many of the problems of the Trapper archetype, but is slightly better. Not sure if it is entirely worth the lack of spells, which are highly versatile. If the party has access to wands and scrolls, which, judging by your post, I'm going to assume are not going to be plentiful, then the spell ranger will outpace the skirmisher for sure.

Of course, if your players are unlikely to play a ranger, I'd not bother and focus on what they want to play.

By the way, are you using pathfinder or 3.5 rules on what can suffer precision damage? How likely are undead/constructs to show up? Also, I'd like to know how these rules work for your group to steal them later.

[gadren]

Two of your Healer domains {Arborea, Celestia} are double domains. Is this intentional ?
That is a mistake, I'll double check on that.

[Tvtyrant]

What is your policy on magic item availability and cost? Are you planning to remove the moat dangerous critters?

[nedz]

That is a mistake, I'll double check on that.

Well I am assuming that these are 3.5 domains. IDK if Pathfinder domains of the same name exist nor if they are also double domains.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Two of your Healer domains {Arborea, Celestia} are double domains. Is this intentional ?

It makes sense for them to have access though. What about letting them choose which ones of the domain spells they want and locking them to it? Those domains are rarely taken in my experience and an incentive to take them would be nice.

[Windrammer]

People handle demanding settings differently, some with sheer toughness, some with reflexes, some with willpower, some with wit, and so forth. Specifics of life experience shouldn't be imposed on players, they should choose from the set of bonuses. As it stands it just favors strength based martial characters without an actual reasoning for it.

[gadren]

Hrm. I don't normally play rangers myself, but I do like the scout class thematically, but never got the chance to play one properly. From a quick glance, it seems to suffer many of the problems of the Trapper archetype, but is slightly better. Not sure if it is entirely worth the lack of spells, which are highly versatile. If the party has access to wands and scrolls, which, judging by your post, I'm going to assume are not going to be plentiful, then the spell ranger will outpace the skirmisher for sure. In particular, I think a Pathfinder ranger that dipped 4 levels into scout and took the Swift Hunter feat would be pretty good, perhaps meriting tier 3.


By the way, are you using pathfinder or 3.5 rules on what can suffer precision damage? How likely are undead/constructs to show up? Also, I'd like to know how these rules work for your group to steal them later. Pathfinder rules. I've been in three Pathfinder + D&D games before, and I think it works best if you just use the Pathfinder rules set as the core, and just allow D&D classes, feats, magic items, etc. as supplements.

If you're interested in seeing how the rules end up working, it is likely I may have to run this game online. Perhaps you might want to join us?


What is your policy on magic item availability and cost? Are you planning to remove the moat dangerous critters?
These are spelled out in my OP under "MAGIC ITEM CHANGES". Was there some part in there that I was unclear about?

And considering that in a world with less magic, moats will be a very popular form of defense, I will undoubtedly be using dangerous moat critters.


It makes sense for them to have access though. What about letting them choose which ones of the domain spells they want and locking them to it? Those domains are rarely taken in my experience and an incentive to take them would be nice.

If I remove the Summon Monster Spells from them they are fairly balanced with the other domains, so that's probably what I'll do.


People handle demanding settings differently, some with sheer toughness, some with reflexes, some with willpower, some with wit, and so forth. Specifics of life experience shouldn't be imposed on players, they should choose from the set of bonuses. As it stands it just favors strength based martial characters without an actual reasoning for it.
The real reasoning is just trying to bring the mundanes up to a level that is competitive with the casters, and to help the casters fend for themselves in situations where there magic is unavailable.

[gadren]

Made a few tweaks based on input.
1. Changed the luck bonus to various stats to a morale bonus, so that it doesn't stack with a variety of spells (and thus give spellcasters another advantage).
2. Nerfed flying spells, since that is one of the most common ways to make the non-casters useless, and it'll be very difficult to buy methods of flight in this setting. I also intend to nerf flying a bit for all non-animals as well, but need to think on it some more.
3. Nerfed death effects, stun, daze, and paralysis, making them easier to resist or recover from. SoD and SoS are not much fun, and it will be much harder to buy magic items to protect against such things in this campaign setting.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Made a few tweaks based on input.
1. Changed the luck bonus to various stats to a morale bonus, so that it doesn't stack with a variety of spells (and thus give spellcasters another advantage).
Given that magic can access really weird bonuses on its own, I am not sure how big a deal this will be ultimately. It certainly will cover some of the more common spells which is a start. What about making it an enhancement bonus? It will definitely cover a lot more than way.


2. Nerfed flying spells, since that is one of the most common ways to make the non-casters useless, and it'll be very difficult to buy methods of flight in this setting. I also intend to nerf flying a bit for all non-animals as well, but need to think on it some more.
Given that everyone ultimately needs flying anyways I am not sure how useful this will be. A lot of iconic monsters have flight so you will be seriously limit your options. What about nefing flying spells but leaving the more expensive flying items alone. That way late game they have flight (which opens up space for your encounters) but casters don't get it for cheap, which is where they get annoying.


3. Nerfed death effects, stun, daze, and paralysis, making them easier to resist or recover from. SoD and SoS are not much fun, and it will be much harder to buy magic items to protect against such things in this campaign setting.
I approve. Driving casters into a more support position instead of simply destroying the encounter by themselves seems like a good thing to me.

[OldTrees1]

Given that everyone ultimately needs flying anyways I am not sure how useful this will be. A lot of iconic monsters have flight so you will be seriously limit your options. What about nefing flying spells but leaving the more expensive flying items alone. That way late game they have flight (which opens up space for your encounters) but casters don't get it for cheap, which is where they get annoying.

He mentioned nerfing monster (excluding animal) flight too.

[ZamielVanWeber]

He mentioned nerfing monster (excluding animal) flight too.

That risks making his encounters a lot more bland. Eventually a lot of the interesting monsters have flight or defences against it. I was just recommending that he just shove the entire flight game until much later so he has a nice window where his encounters aren't trivialized by flight and a window where flying combat is acceptable. By using magic items he can control these himself, instead of a PC hitting 9th and dictating it himself.

[OldTrees1]

That risks making his encounters a lot more bland. Eventually a lot of the interesting monsters have flight or defences against it. I was just recommending that he just shove the entire flight game until much later so he has a nice window where his encounters aren't trivialized by flight and a window where flying combat is acceptable. By using magic items he can control these himself, instead of a PC hitting 9th and dictating it himself.

Good assessment. As you mentioned, he would still have to control/nerf the low level Fly spells.

Reasonable flight comes online at a market price around 20K(Ex: Flying Broom/Carpet), under the price increases that would end up at around 40K. This can give you an idea of how much higher level to includle the flight game.

[Windrammer]

The real reasoning is just trying to bring the mundanes up to a level that is competitive with the casters, and to help the casters fend for themselves in situations where there magic is unavailable.

Sure. But you should let the players choose the distribution of those scores, because again, you're being imposing on their character and their backstory and a lot of players hate that.

[gadren]

Sure. But you should let the players choose the distribution of those scores, because again, you're being imposing on their character and their backstory and a lot of players hate that.

The same could be said about any race that imposes a bonus or penalty on a mental ability score. Should I allow grey elves to just apply that +2 int anywhere, because it's unfair to impose on the player that they spent extra time studying instead of lifting weights?

[Vhaidara]

The same could be said about any race that imposes a bonus or penalty on a mental ability score. Should I allow grey elves to just apply that +2 int anywhere, because it's unfair to impose on the player that they spent extra time studying instead of lifting weights?

You want an honest answer? Yeah. That's what I do. Players get a +2 Physical, +2 Mental, and a -2 to something.

[Honest Tiefling]

The same could be said about any race that imposes a bonus or penalty on a mental ability score. Should I allow grey elves to just apply that +2 int anywhere, because it's unfair to impose on the player that they spent extra time studying instead of lifting weights?

One chooses to be an elf, but one is faced with the decision of joining the campaign that favors strength based builds or not. Dexterity based builds already face problems, so I don't think it is your intention to basically make them a slightly subpar option. The difference between a 15 and a 14 is already 2 points, which hurts especially with a 15 point buy. Unless you intend for a more barbarian-esque feel, where everyone is a musclebound beefcake. I don't know if that's where you're going, but I wouldn't mind from a aesthetic point of view.

I suggest allowing a +3/+2/+1 to physical stats. With the lack of healing, some people might actually have deliberating effects from childhood diseases or famine. I assume there are at least some cities, and people there might rely more on dexterity then strength to get away from danger, or focus on making things to keep danger away from them. Scouts and the like would be incredibly useful if you are going where I think you are going with the campaign world.

And thank you for the offer, but I don't know if my schedule will allow me to join. I'm sure you'll find plenty of interested people, since many love the tier 3-4's.

[OldTrees1]

The same could be said about any race that imposes a bonus or penalty on a mental ability score. Should I allow grey elves to just apply that +2 int anywhere, because it's unfair to impose on the player that they spent extra time studying instead of lifting weights?


You want an honest answer? Yeah. That's what I do. Players get a +2 Physical, +2 Mental, and a -2 to something.


One chooses to be an elf, but one is faced with the decision of joining the campaign that favors strength based builds or not. Dexterity based builds already face problems, so I don't think it is your intention to basically make them a slightly subpar option. The difference between a 15 and a 14 is already 2 points, which hurts especially with a 15 point buy. Unless you intend for a more barbarian-esque feel, where everyone is a musclebound beefcake. I don't know if that's where you're going, but I wouldn't mind from a aesthetic point of view.

I suggest allowing a +3/+2/+1 to physical stats. With the lack of healing, some people might actually have deliberating effects from childhood diseases or famine. I assume there are at least some cities, and people there might rely more on dexterity then strength to get away from danger, or focus on making things to keep danger away from them. Scouts and the like would be incredibly useful if you are going where I think you are going with the campaign world.

And thank you for the offer, but I don't know if my schedule will allow me to join. I'm sure you'll find plenty of interested people, since many love the tier 3-4's.

This (bonus +3 Con, +2 Str, +2 Dex) sounds like it is between a "check with your players" and a "player's accept free gifts rather than looking a gift horse in the mouth".

[gadren]

One chooses to be an elf, but one is faced with the decision of joining the campaign that favors strength based builds or not. Dexterity based builds already face problems, so I don't think it is your intention to basically make them a slightly subpar option. The difference between a 15 and a 14 is already 2 points, which hurts especially with a 15 point buy. At this point, it occurs to me that you missed that I buffed the dex bonus 2 updates ago.
Unless you intend for a more barbarian-esque feel, where everyone is a musclebound beefcake. I don't know if that's where you're going, but I wouldn't mind from a aesthetic point of view. Not everyone should look like a bodybuilder, but it's a lot more common. Going for a middle ground somewhere between Conan the Barbarian (though much colder) and Dragonlance, if that makes sense.


I suggest allowing a +3/+2/+1 to physical stats. With the lack of healing, some people might actually have deliberating effects from childhood diseases or famine. I assume there are at least some cities, and people there might rely more on dexterity then strength to get away from danger, or focus on making things to keep danger away from them. As I said above, I buffed dexterity to strength's level. Also, I do allow Flaws, so players could give up a physical bonus or two in favor of a feat.

Scouts and the like would be incredibly useful if you are going where I think you are going with the campaign world. that's intentional.


And thank you for the offer, but I don't know if my schedule will allow me to join. I'm sure you'll find plenty of interested people, since many love the tier 3-4's. more's the pity. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Honest Tiefling]

At this point, it occurs to me that you missed that I buffed the dex bonus 2 updates ago. Not everyone should look like a bodybuilder, but it's a lot more common. Going for a middle ground somewhere between Conan the Barbarian (though much colder) and Dragonlance, if that makes sense.

Well, call me an monkey's uncle, yes I did, my bad. I think +2/+3/+2 is good enough. Most people won't object to extra constitution. I am admittedly, starting to get curious about the setting (I read the Dragonlance books as a kid, but don't know the setting much. Also, I tended to read the side material which I doubt was super-canon).


more's the pity. I'll let you know how it goes.

HA. You don't know how I play, so maybe you dodged a bullet. And again...Doubt you're going to have issues filling up slots.

[noob]

You did not put binder in the list of restricted/forbidden classes.
Do you allow the online vestiges(if not then the binder is not T2)?

"[I]Levitation, Fly, and any other spell that grants a fly speed[I] - Whenever flying due to a spell (even from polymorphing into a form with wings), you lose your dexterity bonus to AC and find yourself increasingly unstable every time you attack ; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows you to begin again at –1."
Is way more a nerf for melee than for other stuff since basically you are annoying the fighter when he wants to fight flying stuff while ranged characters(hulking hurler and stuff of this kind) can just stay to the ground and shoot.
What is the reason of that penalty?

Else there is a PRC with access to level 9 spells you did not banned(just because your list is not completely comprehensive like you said): Divine crusader(can only cast spells from one domain but some domains have shape-change,miracle,gate and stuff of this kind I believe)

[gadren]

You did not put binder in the list of restricted/forbidden classes.
Do you allow the online vestiges(if not then the binder is not T2)?
Yeah, I was trying to figure out what about the online vestiges supposedly bumps them up to T2? I honestly have 0 experience with binders, but it seemed ok to me?



"[I]Levitation, Fly, and any other spell that grants a fly speed[I] - Whenever flying due to a spell (even from polymorphing into a form with wings), you lose your dexterity bonus to AC and find yourself increasingly unstable every time you attack ; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows you to begin again at –1."
Is way more a nerf for melee than for other stuff since basically you are annoying the fighter when he wants to fight flying stuff while ranged characters(hulking hurler and stuff of this kind) can just stay to the ground and shoot.
What is the reason of that penalty?
That reminds me, I meant to also put in that flying requires a concentration check to cast spells.
Keep in mind that I plan on also nerfing flying for most flying monsters as well.
The reason for the fly nerf is that once it becomes available for anyone, it becomes a requirement for everyone. Otherwise you just have the flyers staying up out of reach, raining down death on players that can't reach them and often do significantly less damage with their ranged weapon than their melee one. I may change the penalty to just ranged attack rolls, though.


Else there is a PRC with access to level 9 spells you did not banned(just because your list is not completely comprehensive like you said): Divine crusader(can only cast spells from one domain but some domains have shape-change,miracle,gate and stuff of this kind I believe) Yeah, missed that one. That's why the list is not comprehensive, there's just way too many PrC options out there for me to consider.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what about the online vestiges supposedly bumps them up to T2? I honestly have 0 experience with binders, but it seemed ok to me

Zyrcell. Summon Monster IX (actual number based on level, but even with whatever a Wizard X could currently cast) on standard binder cooldown.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what about the online vestiges supposedly bumps them up to T2? I honestly have 0 experience with binders, but it seemed ok to me?

Zycerll is pretty brutal as intended, but contains a critical problem: the summon monster ability has no duration, so the binder can just spam use it 1/5 rounds and have a massive army when it finally comes time for combat.

[gadren]

Zycerll is pretty brutal as intended, but contains a critical problem: the summon monster ability has no duration, so the binder can just spam use it 1/5 rounds and have a massive army when it finally comes time for combat.

That's one possible interpretation of no duration, or one could just assume it works the same as the spell. If one doesn't want to assume it works the same as the spell, the Binder ability also neglected to mention that the summoned creature is under the binder's control.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's one possible interpretation of no duration, or one could just assume it works the same as the spell. If one doesn't want to assume it works the same as the spell, the Binder ability also neglected to mention that the summoned creature is under the binder's control.

Even without that oopsie: SU summon monster is amazing, telepathy and mindsight both are amazing, the ability to inflict daze for multiple rounds (not often, but still possible), plus other goodies. Zycerll may be the best vestige there is her effects are so nasty and cover so many bases.

[gadren]

Even without that oopsie: SU summon monster is amazing, telepathy and mindsight both are amazing, the ability to inflict daze for multiple rounds (not often, but still possible), plus other goodies. Zycerll may be the best vestige there is her effects are so nasty and cover so many bases.

Okay so yeah, that pact is out.

[gadren]

Based on some discussion with a player, I'm buffing Warlock a bit, though mostly for flavor reasons. (I don't think this would raise Warlock above tier 3, correct me if I'm wrong.) Basically, warlocks pick who their pact is with and get bonuses based on that. Here are the rules for pacts and the first three patrons (I'll write up more):

Warlock patrons and pacts rules:
Warlocks gain their powers from whatever entity they made their pact with. Below are some options for specific patrons, along with special benefits for each patron. Using these patrons effects the warlock's alignment restrictions, modifies their eldritch blast, and provides access to reserve feats.

Alignment: each patron has a specific alignment. To make a pact with them, a warlock must be within one step of their patron's alignment. (This replaces the standard warlock's alignment restriction.)

Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks have the option to modify their eldritch blast with patron-specific effects. The warlock may choose whether or not to apply this modification each time he uses his Eldritch Blast class feature.

Reserve Power: Warlock pacts also act as a power source for reserve feats in place of actual spells. Each patron has a list of spell types that the warlock is always considered to have available for the purpose of reserve feats (and only for that purpose). Their effective spell level is equal to 1 + the number of dice of damage the warlock's eldritch blast does.

Bonus feats: Pact warlocks gain a bonus feat at class levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. This feat must be a reserve feat.


Al-Qanun:
(Lawful Neutral)
A powerful Djinn punished long ago for an unknown crime by an unknown entity, Al-Qanun's body was turned into storm clouds and blown to the corners of the world by the four winds. Those who know the secrets of his punishment ritual are able to use it to gain Al-Qanun as a patron. It is rumored that if a warlock that has made a pact with Al-Qanan becomes too powerful, the Djinn will be set free and the warlock will be the one scattered by the four winds.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks of Al-Qanun have the option of dealing electricity damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +2 bonus to it's attack roll against opponents wearing metal armor or that are made of metal. Their unmodified blasts look like miniature cyclones, while their modified blasts look like bolts of lightning.
Reserve Power: Warlocks of Al-Qanun are considered to always have spells with the air, electricity, and sonic subtypes available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

"The Twin":
(Chaotic Neutral)
Coterminous with the reality of Bardawil is another plane of existence called Liwadrab, the plane of shadows, reflections, and dreams. Superstition says that every mirror is a portal to Liwadrab, and this isn't far off - at the hands of those who know the right magic, any mirror can become a window or door into this other plane. If one makes the mistake of looking at at their own reflection in the mirror as it is transformed into a portal, they are greeted by "the Twin". The twin's true name, form, age and motives are unknown. It prefers to tell people what they want to hear rather than the truth, and is a very convincing liar. It claims to be able to see any place and any time, and offers to show what it sees to any who ask, but only those who ask exactly the right way are shown the truth.
"The twin" is very happy to make a pact with any willing warlock, though it is rumored that all that have made such a pact are actually trapped in Liwadrab and replaced by some sort of doppelgänger.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Twin-pact warlocks have the option of turning their eldritch blast into an illusion. These modified blasts use d10s instead of d6s for damage and automatically hit, but are treated as an illusion (shadow) spell-like-ability and allow a Will save (DC 10 + half the caster level + charisma modifier). A successful will save negates the damage.
Both the modified and unmodified versions of a twin-pact warlock's eldritch blast appear identical: a 2-dimensional, 2 foot wide stream of inverted color.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Enchantment and Divination schools as well as spells with the glamer, polymorph, and teleportation subtypes available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Charn:
(True Neutral)
When someone dies in Bardawil, their souls go to the Five Rivers of Daseh, which take them to their afterlife. Some lose their way, and it is Charn's duty to guide lost souls back down the Five Rivers to their final rest. Charn is the most ancient of all the Warlock patrons, requiring the light of a living mortal's soul to ignite his lanterns with which he searches for the Lost. In exchange for that small piece of soul, Charn gave a small piece of himself, granting the mortal some of his power until it was their turn to descend to Daseh.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Charn-pact warlocks have the option of dealing cold damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +1 bonus to damage per die. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of supernaturally cold water from the Five Rivers, while their unmodified blast looks like a shadowy missile that trails a tail of graveyard fog.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Necromancy school and Death domain as well as spells with the cold and water subtypes available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

(I've got a rough outline for 4 more patrons written up by hand, but I need to get to bed. Let me know if you think these buffs make warlock too powerful.)

[Vhaidara]

Unless you modify the Warlock's fluff, I have a fundamental opposition to giving them an Alignment restriction. Because the base Warlock fluff includes people who's parents made pacts. They can draw power from a bloodline, just like sorcerers can.

I'm also against alignment restrictions in general. Recommendations, sure, but it's a roleplaying game. If you can explain your CE paladin in a satisfactory way to me, the go right on ahead.

[gadren]

Unless you modify the Warlock's fluff, I have a fundamental opposition to giving them an Alignment restriction. Because the base Warlock fluff includes people who's parents made pacts. They can draw power from a bloodline, just like sorcerers can.

I'm also against alignment restrictions in general. Recommendations, sure, but it's a roleplaying game. If you can explain your CE paladin in a satisfactory way to me, the go right on ahead.

But Warlocks already have an alignment restriction? And this allows warlocks to be any alignment, they just have to pick a patron that is near that alignment? I figured this was way more flexible and made more sense fluff-wise.
I'm against most of the alignment restrictions as well, especially for monks, barbarians, and bards.
But it doesn't make sense to me for, like, a lawful good warlock to make a pact with a chaotic evil torture demon.

[Vhaidara]

Yes, warlocks already have a restriction, which I for one remove entirely. Because, as I pointed out, Warlocks don't need to have made a pact. They can draw power from a pact made by an ancestor. Which means they should be no more alignment restricted than a Sorcerer, who also draws his power from his bloodline.

Perhaps an example will help. One of my oldest characters is a Tiefling Warlock. He had his powers long before he made any deals (he pulls some dresden-esque occulty deals more than faustian pact deals). He draws power from the pact his father made with a demon lord. So, since he never made a deal for his powers, why is he restricted to Chaotic or Evil Alignments? He's N at worst, more likely LN.

[gadren]

Yes, warlocks already have a restriction, which I for one remove entirely. Because, as I pointed out, Warlocks don't need to have made a pact. They can draw power from a pact made by an ancestor. Which means they should be no more alignment restricted than a Sorcerer, who also draws his power from his bloodline.

Perhaps an example will help. One of my oldest characters is a Tiefling Warlock. He had his powers long before he made any deals (he pulls some dresden-esque occulty deals more than faustian pact deals). He draws power from the pact his father made with a demon lord. So, since he never made a deal for his powers, why is he restricted to Chaotic or Evil Alignments? He's N at worst, more likely LN.
Ok, well, the above pacts assume the warlock actively made the pact their self.

[Vhaidara]

Ok, well, the above pacts assume the warlock actively made the pact their self.

So why lock out the concept of someone cursed with those powers through no fault of their own? Especially since you're removing sorcerers, warlock is the only real option for people who want that flavor vibe

[ZamielVanWeber]

Big concern: Pact warlocks are just dramatically better than non-pact warlocks. With no downside aside from alignment restrictions (that just supercede their previous alignment restrictions) there is no reason not to play a Pact Warlock.

The Twin's pact modification looks awful: bonus damage and autohit seems nice, but a long of things have good will saves. You will be using your a lot less than the other two will be using theirs. Maybe make it will half and only increase die size to a d8?

[Honest Tiefling]

So why lock out the concept of someone cursed with those powers through no fault of their own? Especially since you're removing sorcerers, warlock is the only real option for people who want that flavor vibe

I'd like to point out that the first paragraph of the Warlock description in Complete Arcane doesn't even MENTION pacts, just a bloodline. If you intend to change the flavor of the Warlock, I would ask the following questions:

1) Are the people I already have lined up for this game going to disagree with alignment restrictions for this class (or in general, really)?
2) How does a pact happen, and does it place any restrictions upon the character?
3) What happens if someone comes to regret a pact, or changes alignment?
4) Is it possible to steal power from an evil source via the pacts (to weaken them), or would a character be reasonably convinced of such?

Through I wonder why Charn might care about neutrality. Some people, including CG, LE, and LG might not want souls wandering around where they shouldn't. Given the danger this setting seems to have, I'm going to assume that wandering souls = bad. I assume the Lost are souls yucking it up where they shouldn't be, so it would seem logical that many people would want them to go back to where they belong. Does Charn himself care about his soul-lenders being neutral or something?

Also, under the Twin it says that it'll make a warlock pact with any willing warlock. I could see a situation where the choice might be 'be killed horribly by raiders and have your family be killed by the same raiders' or 'make weird pact'. I could see a bit of a shift for a lawful character, but it might be quite tempting for a NG or a NE to consider such given the alternative.

There's also the problem that the potential warlock themselves might not have correct information on the patron and not realize who or what they are making the pact with. After all, adventurers are known for poor decision making.

[gadren]

You all make excellent points about the pact warlock, except for the complaint that they are better than regular warlock, as that's the intention.
I'll take it all under consideration in the next update.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You all make excellent points about the pact warlock, except for the complaint that they are better than regular warlock, as that's the intention.
I'll take it all under consideration in the next update.

You could keep the fluff with pacts: the pact an ancestor made resurfaced at some point in their lives. The alignment is locked because of how powerful the entities' influence is; it is too strong to fight against. Lets the warlocks keep a touch of their "tortured because of their magic" feel to it.

[Alias]

Hey, I'm planning on running a Pathfinder + 3.5 D&D campaign where magic is much less prevalent, and generalist casters are replaced more by a variety of specialists casting classes like Warmage and Beguiler. Most importantly, I'm trying to keep the class options around tiers 3 and 4.

That's.. a lot. Granted, I'm guilty of writing up lots of rules myself, but there comes point that maybe you're trying to get the system to do something another game system entirely would do a better job of. 5e doesn't require 3.5/Pathfinder's Christmas tree o' magic items for characters to be effective and seems to already fix a lot of the things you're trying to fix without culling core options.

And if that's too much, the words "Max level 6" go a LONG way in curtailing the power of spell casters of all tiers across the board without the boatload of customization. Just cut the amount of XP's handed out.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's.. a lot. Granted, I'm guilty of writing up lots of rules myself, but there comes point that maybe you're trying to get the system to do something another game system entirely would do a better job of. 5e doesn't require 3.5/Pathfinder's Christmas tree o' magic items for characters to be effective and seems to already fix a lot of the things you're trying to fix without culling core options.

And if that's too much, the words "Max level 6" go a LONG way in curtailing the power of spell casters of all tiers across the board without the boatload of customization. Just cut the amount of XP's handed out.

It is an undertaking to be sure, but it also opens up the doors of taking subpar but cool PrCs that normally tiers 1 and 2 would punish you ruthlessly for; it also lets you take a T4 without worrying about whether or not you are messing over your party.

I personally think this project has a lot of merit because it lets player take advantage of all 3.5 has to offer without having to worry about most of the high end options.

[Anthrowhale]

Does Warmage/Rainbow Servant give spontaneous access to all Cleric spells? That would seem to violate tier 1 avoidance.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Does Warmage/Rainbow Servant give spontaneous access to all Cleric spells? That would seem to violate tier 1 avoidance.

That is why I said "most." The Rainbow Snake's are pretty bad; sand shaper gives access to spells that are wiped out by the loss of T1/T2. I think there are a few others but those are what come to mind.

[gadren]

Prestige classes are the trickiest part and are why the banned PrC list is not exhaustive. The right PrC is the easiest way to boost a lot of classes up a couple tiers.

[nedz]

Here is my Prestige Class ban list for reference. It's based on Son of Zeal's PrC Tier list and I selected casterly PrCs which are +1 Tier or more. It's 3.5 and my aim was to remove Vancian casting as well as T1 — so it might not be entirely what you are looking for, but it should be close.

General

Prestige Classes which grant metamagic reduction or action inflation are deprecated.
Likewise Prestige Classes which allow, or assume, spell preparation are deprecated; unless they can be re-worked. The standard rule for a typical half casting Prestige Classes would be something like two spells known per class level, subject to them being of a level and type which the class can cast; this wouldn't apply to fix list classes.
No early entry tricks.
Prestige Classes which are not milieux appropriate are obviously deprecated.
Gish type classes which offer swift spell casting are allowed exceptions to the rule against breaking the action economy.
PrCs never self disqualify you from that specific PrC.


Specific
Several Prestige Classes are deprecated; which include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:-

Anima Mage
Beholder Mage
Cancer Mage
Disciple of Dispater
Dweomerkeeper
Halruuan Elder
Hathran
Hulking Hurler
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Incantatrix
Legacy Champion
Moonspeaker
Planar Sheppard
Rainbow Servant (Beguiler or Warmage entry). Also Spells per Day is as per Table, not Text.
Red Wizard
Sandshaper
Shadowcraft Mage
Skypledged
Soul Eater
Tainted Scholar
Thrallherd
Thrall of Juiblex
Ur-Priest
Walker in the Waste
Warshaper



Sublime Chord CL cannot exceed character Level

It seems I forgot about Dread Necromancers on the Rainbow Servant list.

[gadren]

Here is my Prestige Class ban list for reference. It's based on Son of Zeal's PrC Tier list and I selected casterly PrCs which are +1 Tier or more. It's 3.5 and my aim was to remove Vancian casting as well as T1 — so it might not be entirely what you are looking for, but it should be close.

General

Prestige Classes which grant metamagic reduction or action inflation are deprecated.
Likewise Prestige Classes which allow, or assume, spell preparation are deprecated; unless they can be re-worked. The standard rule for a typical half casting Prestige Classes would be something like two spells known per class level, subject to them being of a level and type which the class can cast; this wouldn't apply to fix list classes.
No early entry tricks.
Prestige Classes which are not milieux appropriate are obviously deprecated.
Gish type classes which offer swift spell casting are allowed exceptions to the rule against breaking the action economy.
PrCs never self disqualify you from that specific PrC.


Specific
Several Prestige Classes are deprecated; which include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:-

Anima Mage
Beholder Mage
Cancer Mage
Disciple of Dispater
Dweomerkeeper
Halruuan Elder
Hathran
Hulking Hurler
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Incantatrix
Legacy Champion
Moonspeaker
Planar Sheppard
Rainbow Servant (Beguiler or Warmage entry). Also Spells per Day is as per Table, not Text.
Red Wizard
Sandshaper
Shadowcraft Mage
Skypledged
Soul Eater
Tainted Scholar
Thrallherd
Thrall of Juiblex
Ur-Priest
Walker in the Waste
Warshaper



Sublime Chord CL cannot exceed character Level

It seems I forgot about Dread Necromancers on the Rainbow Servant list.

What do you mean when you say you deprecate the classes? In what way do you deprecate them?

[ZamielVanWeber]

What do you mean when you say you deprecate the classes? In what way do you deprecate them?

I would guess that he means "disapprove of" in this context. As in he will give the stink eye to anyone who reaches for it.

Also is there any entrance or Rainbow Servant T3 or lower that does not involve Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer? You might just be better off totally banning it then watching people try to jerry rig it.

[Windrammer]

The same could be said about any race that imposes a bonus or penalty on a mental ability score. Should I allow grey elves to just apply that +2 int anywhere, because it's unfair to impose on the player that they spent extra time studying instead of lifting weights?

Well no, the racial bonuses are as a direct result of their race, not their life experience. Dwarves are naturally tougher, Orcs are naturally stronger, etc.

That said, core dnd does impose some lore stuff on characters. Dwarves get bonuses against Orcs because they don't like them. However, this is controversial and a lot of people don't like being told that their character has to harbor extreme hatred of a specific group. I think it's totally wrong to impose unnecessary details on a player's character and that there's little to be said to the contrary.

[nedz]

What do you mean when you say you deprecate the classes? In what way do you deprecate them?

Deprecate = Ban.

[ericgrau]

As such, I wrote up a series of house rules for the campaign that restricts magic items,
You actually just heavily nerfed the non-casters right there and made it better to get a class that is as magical as possible (within your limits). I see this unintentional result happen a lot. But you can make it work at low level when not too much wealth is expected and therefore the magic items aren't expected to be too powerful.

Giving bigger numbers to non-casters does not solve this problem. Their numbers are already big and they go from succeeding on a roll of 5 to succeeding on a roll of 2. Giving them a little magic does help a little.

Since magic used to exist you might allow lots of leftover magic items so that magic items in treasure are almost as much as any other campaign. Or if you don't like that another option might be E6 to keep the level limited.

Another option is to keep the utility of magic without the power. Scrolls are amazing for utility, so something similar to scrolls could work. Give a limited spell progression but give out X number of points each level that may be spent on once in a lifetime spells rather than per day spells. As with scrolls increase the point cost rapidly with level (e.g., spell level x caster level), and limit the save DC to the minimum and caster level to the minimum (unless more points are spent, like scrolls). Because of all this the magic user ends up with a large variety of low power spells, great for the utility the party needs from magic. Now you can increase the numbers on the non-casters without worrying as much about a lack of utility. But note that defensive magic items are far cheaper than offensive ones, and this is what the system expects, so with low magic items be sure you give out more defensive bonuses than offensive ones. So rather than PC rolls going from a 5 to 2 to pass, monster rolls go from a 10 to 5 to pass, the PCs likewise pass more saves and the bonuses are more meaningful and slow things down. Rather than making it like the rocket tag that happens when you boost offense without boosting mobility, other utility or defense.

[OldTrees1]

You actually just heavily nerfed the non-casters right there and made it better to get a class that is as magical as possible (within your limits). I see this unintentional result happen a lot. But you can make it work at low level when not too much wealth is expected and therefore the magic items aren't expected to be too powerful.

You might find it wise to examine the actual houserules regarding magic items/necessary items/flight/normal cost of utility items vs new cost of utility items/etc.

1) Yes, the 0%, 50%, and 300% increase in price for magic items in the 1K, 10K, and 100K ranges does hit non casters harder than casters.
2) Non casters rely on magic items for 3 things
2a) The boosts like belt of Str/cloak of resistance that monsters presume (you saw the response to this)
2b) The list of necessary items (OP already knows and has taken action, I'll let you read the thread to find how since their is detail)
2c) Cheap(~1K-5K) utility items (not really affected)

[gadren]

I wanted to write a new OP draft, but I was out of town all weekend and only had time to tweak these warlock rules based on your input before going to bed. Let me know what you think:

Warlock patrons and pacts rules:
All warlocks in Bardawil gain their powers from an eldritch pact. Most of the time, the warlock is the one who makes this pact in the first place, but occasionally a pact is instead inherited by the progeny of another pact-maker. There are slight differences in the power of different warlocks, and these difference reflect the entity they made their pact with. Below are some options for specific patrons, along with special benefits for each patron. Using these patrons effects the warlock's alignment restrictions, modifies their eldritch blast, and provides access to reserve feats.

Alignment: each patron has a specific alignment, and warlocks typically have an alignment within one step of their patron. A warlock whose alignment is more than one step from their patron often finds their personality subtly or overtly influenced by their patron's power, and must always fight against an undesired shift of their moral alignment. This has no mechanical effect - it is simply something for warlocks to consider as they roleplay. (This replaces the standard warlock's alignment restriction.)

Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks have the option to modify their eldritch blast with patron-specific effects. The warlock may choose whether or not to apply this modification each time he uses his Eldritch Blast class feature.

Reserve Power: Warlock pacts also act as a power source for reserve feats in place of actual spells. Each patron has a list of spell types that the warlock is always considered to have available for the purpose of reserve feats (and only for that purpose, with the exception of the Pact Spell feat [see below]). Their effective spell level is equal to 1 + the number of dice of damage the warlock's eldritch blast does.

Bonus feats: Pact warlocks gain a bonus feat at class levels 1, 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. This feat must be a reserve feat, the Pact Spell feat, the Eldritch Follow-Up feat, or the Eldritch Reach feat.


New Feats:

PACT SPELL Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 1d6, Reserve Power class feature. Benefit: Choose two different spells that each have the same school, subschool or descriptor as the spells described under your Reserve Power class feature, and are of a level lower than the total number of dice of damage done by your Eldritch Blast class feature (not counting bonus dice from magic items, sneak attack, etc). You can cast each of these chosen spells once per day as a spell-like ability. Special: You may take this feat more than once. You must choose different spells each time.

ELDRITCH FOLLOW-UP Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 3d6, Reserve Power class feature, at least one reserve feat. Benefit: In any round that you have used your Eldritch Blast, you may use a reserve power feat that normally takes a standard action as a swift action instead. If you do so, the effective spell level of your reserve is reduced by 3 for that action.

ELDRITCH REACH Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast 2d6, Reserve Power class feature, at least one reserve feat that requires a touch attack. Benefit: When you hit with an Eldritch Blast attack, you may reduce the Eldritch Blast damage by 2d6 to apply the effects of one reserve feat that normally must be delivered by a touch attack (not a ranged touch attack) to the target. If you do so, the effective spell level of your reserve is reduced by 2 for that action.


PATRONS:

Al-Qanun:
(Lawful Neutral)
A powerful Djinn punished long ago for an unknown crime by an unknown entity, Al-Qanun's body was turned into storm clouds and blown to the corners of the world by the four winds. Those who know the secrets of his punishment ritual are able to use it to gain Al-Qanun as a patron. It is rumored that if a warlock that has made a pact with Al-Qanan becomes too powerful, the Djinn will be set free and the warlock will be the one scattered by the four winds.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks of Al-Qanun have the option of dealing electricity damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +2 bonus to it's attack roll against opponents wearing metal armor or that are made of metal. Their unmodified blasts look like miniature cyclones, while their modified blasts look like bolts of lightning.
Reserve Power: Warlocks of Al-Qanun are considered to always have spells with the air, electricity, and sonic descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

"The Twin":
(Chaotic Neutral)
Coterminous with the reality of Bardawil is another plane of existence called Liwadrab, the plane of shadows, reflections, and dreams. Superstition says that every mirror is a portal to Liwadrab, and this isn't far off - at the hands of those who know the right magic, any mirror can become a window or door into this other plane. If one makes the mistake of looking at at their own reflection in the mirror as it is transformed into a portal, they are greeted by "the Twin". The twin's true name, form, age and motives are unknown. It prefers to tell people what they want to hear rather than the truth, and is a very convincing liar. It claims to be able to see any place and any time, and offers to show what it sees to any who ask, but only those who ask exactly the right way are shown the truth.
"The twin" is very happy to make a pact with any willing warlock, though it is rumored that all that have made such a pact are actually trapped in Liwadrab and replaced by some sort of doppelgänger.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Twin-pact warlocks have the option of turning their eldritch blast into an illusion. These modified blasts use d10s instead of d6s for damage and automatically hit, but are treated as an illusion (shadow) spell-like-ability and allow a Will save (DC 10 + half the caster level + charisma modifier). A successful will save reduces the damage to 2 damage per die.
Both the modified and unmodified versions of a twin-pact warlock's eldritch blast appear identical: a 2-dimensional, 2 foot wide stream of inverted color.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Enchantment and Divination schools as well as spells with the glamer, polymorph, and teleportation descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Charn:
(True Neutral)
When someone dies in Bardawil, their souls go to the Five Rivers of Daseh, which take them to their afterlife. Some lose their way, and it is Charn's duty to guide lost souls back down the Five Rivers to their final rest. Charn is the most ancient of all the Warlock patrons, requiring the light of a living mortal's soul to ignite his lanterns with which he searches for the Lost. In exchange for that small piece of soul, Charn gave a small piece of himself, granting the mortal some of his power until it was their turn to descend to Daseh.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Charn-pact warlocks have the option of dealing cold damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +1 bonus to damage per die. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of supernaturally cold water from the Five Rivers, while their unmodified blast looks like a shadowy missile that trails a tail of graveyard fog.
Reserve Power: Twin-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Necromancy school and Death domain as well as spells with the cold and water descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Vulcaestus:
(Chaotic Neutral)
A primordial being as old as existence, Vulcaestus yearns to burn and destroy. Imprisoned beneath the earth, Vulcaestus's ability to satiate his devastating hunger is usually limited to volcanic eruptions, so the opportunity to transfer a bit of his essence and ruinous power to warlocks wandering the mortal world excites him. Rumors say that those who make a pact with Vulcaestus are slowly consumed by a madness that drives them to wanton destruction.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Vulcaestian-pact warlocks have the option of dealing fire damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage, giving them a +1 bonus to damage per die. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of fire, while their unmodified blasts look like hurled stones glowing with magical force.
Reserve Power: Vulcaestian-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Destruction domain as well as spells with the fire, earth, and force descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Volgna-Gath:
(Chaotic Evil)
An ancient, powerful, horrifying aberration, Vulgna-Gath is a slimy shape-shifting mass that is summoned with an invocation that mixes special mud with the blood of a warlock. Vulgna-Gath's ultimate goals (if it has any) are unknown, but those bound to it develop an intense affinity for darkness and are driven to seek out ways of summoning Vulgna-Gath's slimy progeny into the world.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks that have made a pact with Volgna-Gath have the option of dealing acid damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage. Their acid-augmented eldritch blasts also inflict a stacking -1 penalty to a target's AC on a hit, lasting for 1 minute. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a stream of crimson acid, while their unmodified blast looks like a ray of utter darkness.
Reserve Power: Warlocks that have made a pact with Volgna-Gath are considered to always have spells with the acid, darkness, and summoning descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Arvandra:
(Chaotic Good)
A radiant archfey of unearthly beauty, Arvandra cannot be looked at directly by a mortal without being struck blind. Arvandra has eyes that glow with the intense light of the sun and is always surrounded by motes of light that look just like stars. Arvandra posses potent power of revitalization and protection, and will happily share these powers as part of a pact. However, this fey is notoriously possessive - Arvandra thinks of those who accept the pact as pets at best or possessions at worst. There are many tales in Bardawil folklore about terrible things happening to the lovers of those who've been bound to Arvandra, no doubts victims of the powerful spirit's jealously.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Arvandran-pact warlocks have the option of changing their eldritch blast into what appears to be a beam of searing light. When so modified, their eldritch blast uses d10s instead of d6s for damage dice, but only does lethal damage to undead (and nonlethal damage to anything else). Their unmodified blasts look like a shooting star.
Reserve Power: Arvandran-pact Warlocks are considered to always have spells from the Abjuration school as well as spells with the healing and light descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

Mephithuselah:
(Lawful Evil)
Once a great general of the angelic knights of the celestial realms, Mephithuselah's thirst for death and destruction became too great. He was out because of his wrath, and defect to the Infernal legions. Interested in any possible advantage in his eternal war, Mephithuselah is more than willing to spread his powers of death and destruction to willing hosts in exchange for his influence.
Benefits:
Eldritch Blast Modification: Warlocks that have made a pact with Mephithuselah have the option of dealing force damage whenever they use their eldritch blast instead of dealing untyped damage. Their force-augmented eldritch blasts use d4's instead of d6's for damage and are negated by any effect that stops a magic missile, but otherwise hit without needing an attack roll. When so modified, their eldritch blast appears as a lance of force, while their unmodified blast looks like a ray of red-orange light.
Reserve Power: Warlocks that have made a pact with Mephithuselah are considered to always have spells with the acid, darkness, and summoning descriptor/subschool available to cast for the purpose of reserve feats.

[The Viscount]

Two things that jumped out at me.

1. Dread Necromancer ACF: This ACF seems like it gives up more than it gains. The Dread Necro list is packed with evil spells, so this means Neutral alignments are out. Making spells divine gives the benefit of being able to cast with any armor instead of just light armor, but Dread Necro doesn't need armor heavier than light since it's very much a back lines caster. Splitting casting is a straight loss. In short I'm not sure that I see why a character would take this instead of normal Dread Necromancer.

2. Healer: Adding all of Apostle of Peace's list seems to be over-correcting Healer's inadequacy. They can already spontaneously cast any healing subschool spell, which means they've essentially transformed into an altered cleric at this point. The Apostle of Peace list is very strong, and if you are limiting access to spells using Favored Soul, I suggest you take a very close look at Apostle of Peace's list before adding it in its entirety to Healer. The list itself is a tier 2ish list, the only reason you don't see more Apostle of Peace is that Vow of Poverty is awful and Vow of Peace requires your whole party play the game differently.

[OldTrees1]

Two things that jumped out at me.

1. Dread Necromancer ACF: This ACF seems like it gives up more than it gains. The Dread Necro list is packed with evil spells, so this means Neutral alignments are out. Making spells divine gives the benefit of being able to cast with any armor instead of just light armor, but Dread Necro doesn't need armor heavier than light since it's very much a back lines caster. Splitting casting is a straight loss. In short I'm not sure that I see why a character would take this instead of normal Dread Necromancer.


Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.


Divine necromancers need not designate a specific deity as the source of their spells. However, they can't cast spells of an alignment that doesn't match their own.

Good catch, the Dread Necromancer ACF is more restrictive than the Cleric alignment restriction. Is that a typo?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I am digging this.

[gadren]

Good catch, the Dread Necromancer ACF is more restrictive than the Cleric alignment restriction. Is that a typo?

Hmmm, well I can't call it a typo since I really just copied and pasted the Divine Bard ACF with some modifications. It is interesting to note that Divine Bards are more limited in that way.

It WAS an oversight on my part though, I'll likely change it.

[gadren]

Combining Marshal, Knight, and Cavalier into one tier-3 class called Knight-Commander, and going to combine the 3.5 and PF Swashbucklers into one class...

Knight-Commander
The Marshal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b), Knight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2), and Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) classes are not allowed individually in the Bardawil setting. Instead, they are combined into a single class called the Knight-Commander. The Knight-Commander is identical to Pathfinder's Cavalier class, except for the following changes:

Knight-Commander is treated as a Marshal, Knight, and Cavalier for any game mechanics related specifically to class.
Knight-Commander has its base Will save bonus upgraded to the good progression (same as its Fortitude) and its hit-die upgraded to a d12.
Knight-Commander gains all class features of the Marshal class (in addition to the Cavalier's class features).
Knight-Commander also gains all class features of the Knight class EXCEPT for Knight's Code and Knight's Challenge (this also means she doesn't get any of the abilities that are a subset of Knight's Challenge, such as Test of Mettle and Call to Battle).
The Challenge class feature is different than described under the Cavalier description in that it does not have a daily use limit. Once the challenge class feature is used, it can be used again once ten minutes have passed or once the target of the Challenge is dead or unconscious.
At level 1, the Knight-Commander also gains Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) as a bonus feat. Once every ten minutes, she may use this feat as a move action instead of a standard action.
At level 2, the Knight-Commander also gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If she has a Dexterity of 13 or less, then Combat Reflexes grants her additional attacks of opportunity per round as if she had a Dexterity of 14.
At level 3, the Knight-Commander adds the following to her Bulwark of Defense class feature (in addition to its standard properties):
. - Whenever any enemy attacks one of the Knight-Commander's allies while in her threatened area, that
. . enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Knight-Commander
. - Whenever the target of her Challenge attacks one of the Knight-Commander's allies, but is NOT within
. . her threatened area, the Knight-Commander has the option of either taking a 5-foot step or moving up to
. . her full speed toward the target and then making an Attack of Opportunity. (It should be noted that
. . movement other than a 5-foot step still provokes attack of opportunities against the Knight-Commander
. . even when using this feature.)
At level 4, whenever initiative is rolled for combat, the Knight-Commander may use the Antagonize feat as a free action against multiple targets that she is aware of . The maximum number of enemies she can use Antagonize against during initiative is equal to 1+ her Charisma modifier.


Swashbuckler
This class is identical to the Pathfinder Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler)class, except for the following changes:

Counts as both the 3.5 and Pathfinder version of the Swashbuckler for the purpose of any game mechanics related specifically to class.
Gains all features of the 3.5 Swashbuckler, except Insightful Strike and Grace are changed as follows:
. - Insightful Strike is renamed "Sly Flourish" and uses 1/2 charisma modifier instead of the full intelligence modifier.
. - Grace is renamed "Steel Liver" and applies the competence bonus to Fortitude instead of Reflex. For feat prerequisites,
. . the Swashbuckler is considered to have a Grace feature of the same bonus as his Steel Liver.
At level 7, the swashbuckler may make 1 immediate action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.
At level 14, the swashbuckler may make 1 swift action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.

[Vhaidara]

.[/COLOR] - Grace is renamed "Steel Liver" and applies the competence bonus to Fortitude instead of Reflex. For feat prerequisites,
. . the Swashbuckler is considered to have a Grace feature of the same bonus as his Steel Liver.

:smallbiggrin:


At level 7, the swashbuckler may make 1 immediate action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.
At level 14, the swashbuckler may make 1 swift action per round as a free action, but only to use a Swashbuckler class feature.
[/LIST]

I'm assuming these abilities stack? So at 14 you basically have 2 Immediates and 2 Swifts?

[gadren]

I'm assuming these abilities stack? So at 14 you basically have 2 Immediates and 2 Swifts?
No, you have one immediate action that must be used on a swashbuckler feature, one swift action that must be used on a swashbuckler feature, and your standard one swift action per turn that may be used as an immediate action instead. (By the RAW you lose a swift action when you use an immediate action, many people overlook that.)

[ericgrau]

You might find it wise to examine the actual houserules regarding magic items/necessary items/flight/normal cost of utility items vs new cost of utility items/etc.

1) Yes, the 0%, 50%, and 300% increase in price for magic items in the 1K, 10K, and 100K ranges does hit non casters harder than casters.
2) Non casters rely on magic items for 3 things
2a) The boosts like belt of Str/cloak of resistance that monsters presume (you saw the response to this)
2b) The list of necessary items (OP already knows and has taken action, I'll let you read the thread to find how since their is detail)
2c) Cheap(~1K-5K) utility items (not really affected)
Skimming a 2nd time I was able to find some defensive save and AC bonuses, which are nice. What about dealing with monsters with flight, invisibility and so forth at high level? I couldn't find that within the limited time I have. If anything PC flight seems extra nerfed unless non-casters get something that spells do not provide.

[gadren]

Skimming a 2nd time I was able to find some defensive save and AC bonuses, which are nice. What about dealing with monsters with flight, invisibility and so forth at high level? I couldn't find that within the limited time I have. If anything PC flight seems extra nerfed unless non-casters get something that spells do not provide.
Most monsters will also have their flight nerfed, I just haven't added it to the draft yet.
Invisibility is more powerful when the magic counters are more expensive, yes, but it's not insurmountable.

[gadren]

Buffing Warmage slightly to try and bring it up to tier 3 and match it with the campaign setting's fluff:

Warmage:
The original warmages were the Seven Sorcerers of the Burya Empire, who stole their power from the Great Wyrm Nidhongand centuries ago (after she was slain by the prophet Do'Brynia). To this day, at least 9 out of every 10 warmages in Bardawil has blood infused with draconic power, whether by ancestry or ritual, but other bloodlines are not unheard of.

Warmage Bloodlines:
Warmages choose one sorcerer bloodline from the list below, and gain its benefits as if they were a sorcerer of their warmage level, with the exception of the bloodline's bonus spells. Warmages gain the bonus spells for their bloodline unless a bonus spell is already on the warmage spell list or is a non-evocation spell of 6th level or higher. In either case, the warmage chooses a different spell as their bonus spell, which must be an evocation spell of the same level as the denied bonus spell, from the Sorcerer spell list .

Warmage Bloodline Options:
-Draconic (Most common)
-Arcane
-Djinni
-Efreeti
-Elemental
-Marid
-Orc
-Shadow
-Shaitan
-Starsoul
-Stormborn

Warmage Archetypes:
Warmages can take any sorcerer archetype that they qualify for after replacing any mention of "sorcerer" in the archetype with "warmage"

Sorcerer conversion:
In Bardawil, any game mechanic that is specifically for sorcerers is instead specifically for warmages, with the exception of the Sorcerer spell list. (For example, a race's favored class bonus for sorcerers instead applies to warmages, the Draconic Heritage feats have a warmage level as a prerequisite instead of a sorcerer level, etc., but the Wish spell is NOT changed from Sorcerer 9 to Warmage 9.)

[Endarire]

Favored Soul: What about changing the spell progression to match the Wilder's power progression and removing the 3/4 rule? FvS has a split stat casting by default (CHA & WIS), no Knowledge: Religion, and, quite importantly, no turn undead! These things are easily modifiable.

[torrasque666]

Favored Soul: What about changing the spell progression to match the Wilder's power progression and removing the 3/4 rule? FvS has a split stat casting by default (CHA & WIS), no Knowledge: Religion, and, quite importantly, no turn undead! These things are easily modifiable.

Its still a class with access to a T1 spell list, only T2 due to limited access and no Domains. And when you consider most other T1-2 classes got the ax, its lucky.

[gadren]

Favored Soul: What about changing the spell progression to match the Wilder's power progression and removing the 3/4 rule? FvS has a split stat casting by default (CHA & WIS), no Knowledge: Religion, and, quite importantly, no turn undead! These things are easily modifiable.
What would the advantage of that be?

[torrasque666]

What would the advantage of that be?

Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be a nerfed class.

[nedz]

The Crazy thing about Favoured Soul is

The character is chosen by the deity
The deity has several domains which include spells specifically linked to that deity
Unless those spells are also on the general Cleric list, the Favoured Soul can't cast them


Spontaneous Cleric works the other way around.

[Deophaun]

The Favored Soul rule is clunky. I would take either it or the Oracle and give it Bard progression.

Flight is actually accessible rather early. Warlocks and DFAs can be flying all the time at level 6. I don't know if you're including Incarnum, but the Incarnate can have a perfect 30' fly speed at level 4. And with the +3 to Con, everyone can spend a few feats to get that by level 6.

[gadren]

The Favored Soul rule is clunky. I would take either it or the Oracle and give it Bard progression.

Flight is actually accessible rather early. Warlocks and DFAs can be flying all the time at level 6. I don't know if you're including Incarnum, but the Incarnate can have a perfect 30' fly speed at level 4. And with the +3 to Con, everyone can spend a few feats to get that by level 6.

What is a DFA? Also, even though it is accessible that early, it still penalizes attack rolls, forces concentration checks to cast spells, and denies the flier dex to AC.

[Honest Tiefling]

If I had to guess, it is a Dragonfire Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2).

[gadren]

If I had to guess, it is a Dragonfire Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2).

AH, of course!

[gadren]

Updated the OP to draft 4. Still a lot I want to do, but I have to get to bed.

-Expanded the Banned class lists
-Added Knight-Commander, Swashbuckler, Warlock and Warmage to the buffed classes
-Added the "Mundane Blood" option for humans
-Added another Magus archetype
-Tweaked flying
-made other small changes that I've already forgotten

Thinking of getting rid of the scout class and just adding all of its class features to some of the worse ranger archetypes, like battle scout and/or trapper. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also added free weapon finesse for all characters so dex-based characters are not as burdened with that feat tax.

[gadren]

So, as I said before, I think I'm going to remove Scout and wrap it into some Ranger Archetypes, since Scout is barely tier 4 material and these Ranger archetypes are kind of terrible otherwise. Also going to improve Barbarian, Bloodrager, Brawler, and Slayer to try to bring them closer to the Tier 3 sweet spot. Please let me know what you think of these proposed changed before I add them to the next draft:

Ranger Archetype Changes:
Battle Scout, Skirmisher, Trapper, and Urban Ranger: These four archetypes gain 2 skill points per level, add disable device to their list of class skills, and gain all class features from the 3.5 Scout class except for Battle Fortitude.

Barbarian and Bloodrager Changes:
At level 1, Barbarians and Bloodragers learn one 1st level stance and one 1st level strike from the Primal Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers) discipline. At every even level, they may learn another maneuver from the Primal Fury discipline, though they cannot learn a maneuver of higher level than half their character level. They may ready these maneuvers as a standard action, and they remain readied until performed. They have no limit to the number of Primal Fury maneuvers they can have readied, and use their full Barbarian/Bloodrager level as their initiator level.
Option: Any time the Barbarian/Bloodrager would learn a Primary Fury maneuver, they may choose to instead gain a bonus Combat Feat.

Brawler Changes:
1) At 1st level, learn a level 1 stance from any discipline in Path of War or Book of Nine Swords.
2) At every level except 4, 8, 12, and 16, the brawler learns any one maneuver or stance of up to half the Brawler's level from any discipline in Path of War or Book of Nine Swords. The brawler must meet the maneuver's prerequisite(s), and uses his full brawler level as his initiator level. Readying any maneuver is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and it remains readied until performed. The number of brawler maneuvers the brawler can have readied at the same time is equal to 1+1/2 his initiator level.
3) Alternatively, a brawler may choose to instead gain a bonus Combat Feat whenever he would learn a new brawler maneuver.

Slayer Changes:
1) Slayers start with Sneak Attack +1d6 at level 1, and increases their Sneak Attack class feature by 1d6 every two levels thereafter.
2) At every even level, the Slayer gains Hide in Plain Sight (as the Rogue Talent). This is in addition to the Slayer talents they gain at the same levels.
3) At level 3, Slayers may apply some of their Sneak Attack damage to their Studied Target even if the attack normally wouldn't qualify for a Sneak Attack. For every 2 points that their attack roll surpassed the target's AC, they may add +1d6 Sneak Attack damage, up to a maximum of the Slayer's total Sneak Attack dice.

[Honest Tiefling]

Any discipline? I haven't seen Path of War, but in the book of Nine Swords, many were locked to a particular class. Should the Brawler have access to more disciplines then the Crusader or Warblade themselves?

[gadren]

Any discipline? I haven't seen Path of War, but in the book of Nine Swords, many were locked to a particular class. Should the Brawler have access to more disciplines then the Crusader or Warblade themselves?

It is the same thing I did for monk, though perhaps it is overkill?

I was using swordsage as my base of reference since warblade and crusader have improved recovery mechanics, which the brawler has the swordsage's crappy recovery mechanic that effectively necessitates waiting until combat is over to recovery maneuvers. The swordsage knows 25 maneuvers, while the Brawler only knows 16. I figured even though the brawler has a wide selection it isn't that powerful because he has a smaller number of maneuvers known which limits how much he can take advantage of that access.

Maybe I should have the brawler and monk choose 6 disciplines at level 1 and be limited to those?

Edit: Also, what are your thoughts on my adding scout features to the ranger archetypes? You were the one pushing for improvement of the spell-less ranger.

[Vhaidara]

Your finesse rule is confusing me.



Finesse: All characters may use their dexterity modifier instead of their strength modifier for damage rolls with light weapons or other finesseable weapons. The Weapon Finesse feat instead grants the benefit of the Unchained Rogue's Finesse training (Dex instead of Str mod to damage with one finesseable weapon). Add quarterstaff to the list of weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse.

So by default, light and finessable weapons use Str to hit and Dex to damage? And Weapon Finesse gives the Finesse Training ability, which is Dex to hit and eventually Dex to damage with a single weapon?

I feel like you meant to say that you get Dex to hit automatically (free weapon finesse), but why limit the Dex to damage to a single weapon? Why not just use the Deadly Agility feat from Path of War, which gives Dex to damage with finessable weapons?

[gadren]

Your finesse rule is confusing me.




So by default, light and finessable weapons use Str to hit and Dex to damage? And Weapon Finesse gives the Finesse Training ability, which is Dex to hit and eventually Dex to damage with a single weapon?

I feel like you meant to say that you get Dex to hit automatically (free weapon finesse), but why limit the Dex to damage to a single weapon? Why not just use the Deadly Agility feat from Path of War, which gives Dex to damage with finessable weapons?

WHOOPS, thanks for the catch, fixed that. And I'll take a look at Deadly Agility.

EDIT: Okay, updated it.

[Honest Tiefling]

It is the same thing I did for monk, though perhaps it is overkill?

I dunno. I feel as if the TOB classes (And probably Path of War) should be the ultimate Initiators. The lack of maneuvers is a good balancing point, however.


Maybe I should have the brawler and monk choose 6 disciplines at level 1 and be limited to those?

But I kinda like this. This gives some leeway that the TOB classes do not, so if you want to play around with disciplines for a certain concept, there it is. But you cannot cherry pick the best ones of everything, which even the TOB classes cannot do.


Edit: Also, what are your thoughts on my adding scout features to the ranger archetypes? You were the one pushing for improvement of the spell-less ranger.

I don't play Mundanes, but I think it is worth a try. I like the idea of it, in that you get more skills instead of spells. Again, many people I've seen try to ignore the spells to be a forest warrior, so the option may be appreciated. My concern would be one of power, actually, given that I assume they will get access to Sudden Strike. However, I would say just try it and see what happens. It certainly seems appealing, were I one to play things without terrifying magical power.

[gadren]

My concern would be one of power, actually, given that I assume they will get access to Sudden Strike. However, I would say just try it and see what happens. It certainly seems appealing, were I one to play things without terrifying magical power. I assume you mean skirmish instead of sudden strike, but yes they get the skirmish feature. I think even with that the power might still lag behind a vanilla ranger because Ranger spells in a 3.5 + Pathfinder game are really good. Sneak attack of 1d6 per 3 caster levels, doubling arrows fired for a round, and creating a slaying arrow of any type on the fly are way better than 5d6 skirmish damage.

[Beheld]

Is there any particular reason why you have tons or houserules for PCs, but absolutely no houserules for monsters?

It seems like the very first thing you would want to do is completely rebalance all MMs and CR, since otherwise your party is just going to walk into one TPK after another.

Edit: Or they could play the "Tier 3" classes that are just generically better than all the other classes and be full casters I guess?

[gadren]

Is there any particular reason why you have tons or houserules for PCs, but absolutely no houserules for monsters?

It seems like the very first thing you would want to do is completely rebalance all MMs and CR, since otherwise your party is just going to walk into one TPK after another.

Edit: Or they could play the "Tier 3" classes that are just generically better than all the other classes and be full casters I guess?

1. The houserules also apply to monsters (such as the rules on flying, daze, stun, etc.)
2. I haven't finished writing up all the rules yet
3. "they could play the "Tier 3" classes that are just generically better than all the other classes and be full casters" - what is that supposed to mean? Perhaps you could give some specific feedback?

[Beheld]

1. The houserules also apply to monsters (such as the rules on flying, daze, stun, etc.)

While your fly rules may provide some minor problems for some Demons and Devils who use the fly spell, I'm really not sure it is that big a deal. While your rules certainly nerf the crap out of Balor's Power Word Stun, for the most part I'm not sure that saves to escape abilities are even enough to make up for the fact that you lose access to immunities. I mean, probably most creatures are if anything, getting a buff, but even the ones that actually do have abilities that impose one of those three conditions, the ability to perhaps get out one or two rounds later isn't as big a deal as the fact that they have fear effects, and Heroes' Feast doesn't exist.

Also, more to the point, you houserules do nothing about the monsters that do negative levels or ability damage or drain. You basically need a Dread Necro and a Beguiler in your party to cover FoM and Deathward or you are just super dead from negative levels and grapplemonsters, and either way every lonely sea hag or Roper means the entire party needs to take a week off from adventuring while half the party is Str 0.


2. I haven't finished writing up all the rules yet

It was a question about priorities. Presumably all these PC classes are going to be fighting against opposition. But you can't know what the opposition is, because if you use the MMs the parties will just lose over and over, but if you can't know what the opposition will be, then all your balance work now is meaningless, since you are balancing them before knowing what they will actually face, and therefore what they will actually need to be able to do.


3. "they could play the "Tier 3" classes that are just generically better than all the other classes and be full casters" - what is that supposed to mean? Perhaps you could give some specific feedback?

Well, the Dread Necromancer can have an infinite army of shadows, more HD of skeletons than he will ever need, while casting save or dies every round inside the body of a Glabrezu and planar bind Glabrezu's to be his minions. The Binder can . . . get beaten up by one of the Dread Necro's skeletons. When I originally made my first post, I forgot that the Tier system is really bad and arbitrarily ranks powerful full casters that are better than sorcerers as tier 3, hence the edit.

So yeah, I guess so long as your players choose Beguiler and Dread Necro, they can probably beat level appropriate opposition just fine.

[gadren]

While your fly rules may provide some minor problems for some Demons and Devils who use the fly spell, I'm really not sure it is that big a deal. While your rules certainly nerf the crap out of Balor's Power Word Stun, for the most part I'm not sure that saves to escape abilities are even enough to make up for the fact that you lose access to immunities. I mean, probably most creatures are if anything, getting a buff, but even the ones that actually do have abilities that impose one of those three conditions, the ability to perhaps get out one or two rounds later isn't as big a deal as the fact that they have fear effects, and Heroes' Feast doesn't exist.
Specifically what immunities are you referring to?
Why do you say Heroes' Feast doesn't exist? It's on both the Bard's and the Healer's spell list.


Also, more to the point, you houserules do nothing about the monsters that do negative levels or ability damage or drain. You basically need a Dread Necro and a Beguiler in your party to cover FoM and Deathward or you are just super dead from negative levels and grapplemonsters, and either way every lonely sea hag or Roper means the entire party needs to take a week off from adventuring while half the party is Str 0.
I'll look over that more closely.


It was a question about priorities. Presumably all these PC classes are going to be fighting against opposition. But you can't know what the opposition is, because if you use the MMs the parties will just lose over and over, but if you can't know what the opposition will be, then all your balance work now is meaningless, since you are balancing them before knowing what they will actually face, and therefore what they will actually need to be able to do.

1. I have my priorities pretty straight. After running many a game where the the cleric and wizard are the only relevant party members after level 7 or so, I thought it'd be nice to rebalance the PC options to all be relevant when compared to each other and all able to do useful stuff. Hence the focus on bringing stuff to tier 3. I also liked the idea of power not being dependent on what gear you have, of powerful magic items being special things, so I created the gear price curve and provided inherent bonuses to replace the "necessary magic items"
2. I think you're being a bit overdramatic here. There are plenty of monsters in the MM's that would not be problematic for this campaign. The only concern are those certain specific abilities where you have to have a certain item or spell or you're ****ed, and I'm trying to remove that problem.
3. I do know what I'm planning on using as opposition, I actually wrote up quite a few notes by hand on this at work, I just haven't had the chance to type and post them yet. The game is supposed to mainly focus on various humanoids as enemies, animals and magical beasts in the wilds, with the rare dragon or demon causing terror in the world.


Well, the Dread Necromancer can have an infinite army of shadows, more HD of skeletons than he will ever need, while casting save or dies every round inside the body of a Glabrezu and planar bind Glabrezu's to be his minions. The Binder can . . . get beaten up by one of the Dread Necro's skeletons. When I originally made my first post, I forgot that the Tier system is really bad and arbitrarily ranks powerful full casters that are better than sorcerers as tier 3, hence the edit.

So yeah, I guess so long as your players choose Beguiler and Dread Necro, they can probably beat level appropriate opposition just fine.
I don't think the Dread Necro can do this BS with the Glabrezu using the pathfinder rules, and I'm not sure how he is supposed to get an infinite army of shadows. If you could be a bit more specific I could fix these sorts of things.

[The Viscount]

The Dread Necro business being referred to is that they can summon shadows with summon undead V. These shadows have create spawn, with the spawn under the control of the original. A DN can use summon undead to get a shadow, use it to kill an enemy and now have a permanent shadow. Then they rebuke the shadow, have it kill other things, and create many shadows in a control chain. It's not practical in real play because if a single shadow ever dies, everything below it becomes uncontrolled. "No control chains" is a pretty standard gentlemen's agreement type houserule.
As for the Glabrezu business, it's just using planar binding. In normal 3.5 the DN can't technically do this because it lacks the magic circle spells.

I'm still concerned about Healer having access to the entire Apostle of Peace list. Are you sure you want them to be that strong? There are some spells that (because of the banning of T2s) only Healer will have access to.

[gadren]

The Dread Necro business being referred to is that they can summon shadows with summon undead V. These shadows have create spawn, with the spawn under the control of the original. A DN can use summon undead to get a shadow, use it to kill an enemy and now have a permanent shadow. Then they rebuke the shadow, have it kill other things, and create many shadows in a control chain. It's not practical in real play because if a single shadow ever dies, everything below it becomes uncontrolled. "No control chains" is a pretty standard gentlemen's agreement type houserule.
As for the Glabrezu business, it's just using planar binding. In normal 3.5 the DN can't technically do this because it lacks the magic circle spells.

I'm still concerned about Healer having access to the entire Apostle of Peace list. Are you sure you want them to be that strong? There are some spells that (because of the banning of T2s) only Healer will have access to.

I was still debating what to do about the AoP spells. Maybe they should only get AoP spells of up to a certain level, or AOP spells have their level increased for the healer? (So a 1st level AoP spell is a 3rd level spell for a healer, etc?) Trying to find a middle ground to put the healer is in tier 3.

[Beheld]

Specifically what immunities are you referring to?
Why do you say Heroes' Feast doesn't exist? It's on both the Bard's and the Healer's spell list.

Well at this point you need a Dread Necro, a Beguiler, and a Bard or Healer to get immunity to fear, grapple/water, and various death effects and negative energy damage. I guess you can use wands of Lesser Restoration created by a Healer, or have a healer in the party. But all of this is just to replace the things that every cleric brings to the party in addition to whatever else he decides to do, and at this point it covers more than half the party.


1. I have my priorities pretty straight. After running many a game where the the cleric and wizard are the only relevant party members after level 7 or so, I thought it'd be nice to rebalance the PC options to all be relevant when compared to each other and all able to do useful stuff. Hence the focus on bringing stuff to tier 3. I also liked the idea of power not being dependent on what gear you have, of powerful magic items being special things, so I created the gear price curve and provided inherent bonuses to replace the "necessary magic items"

My point wasn't that you can't rebalance PC classes, my point was that before you do that you have to rebalance monsters first, since the monsters are balanced based on a party that has access to Wizard's and Cleric's to do all the real work.


2. I think you're being a bit overdramatic here. There are plenty of monsters in the MM's that would not be problematic for this campaign. The only concern are those certain specific abilities where you have to have a certain item or spell or you're ****ed, and I'm trying to remove that problem.
3. I do know what I'm planning on using as opposition, I actually wrote up quite a few notes by hand on this at work, I just haven't had the chance to type and post them yet. The game is supposed to mainly focus on various humanoids as enemies, animals and magical beasts in the wilds, with the rare dragon or demon causing terror in the world.

I think the vast majority of the MM would be problematic in this campaign, but since you are apparently going to ignore the vast majority of the MM to send only easymode enemies, they should probably be fine. You should treat the Dragons and Demons as significantly above their CR.


I don't think the Dread Necro can do this BS with the Glabrezu using the pathfinder rules, and I'm not sure how he is supposed to get an infinite army of shadows. If you could be a bit more specific I could fix these sorts of things.

I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of all possible changes in pathfinder, but since it doesn't look like they changed Planar Binding, the HD of a Glabrezu, or Magic Jar, it sure looks like he can still do all of that.

1) Rebuke a shadow, have the shadow kill a rabbit, the rabbit is raised as a shadow under the control of the shadow you already control, also you could rebuke the new shadow, if you cared. Repeat for infinite shadow army that are all rebuked under your direct control.

2) Planar Binding a Glabrezu inside a Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchored, (in a regular game, from wizards or clerics or wands/eternal wands of paladin spell for lower CL and cheaper, not sure where Dimensional Anchor would come from in this game, but probably findable), then negotiate a deal where in exchange for not murdering him right that second with all the traps you set up in the room, he will serve you for X days (this could be CL days, but you might agree to some smaller number) fighting for you as a minion in all the fights you take part in for that time period. Repeat as many times as you have spell slots. Heck, do it again the next day. On the third day go adventuring with 8 CR 12 monsters as your pets, also, the 9th one you Planar Bind him, and then either negotiate the service, or not, your choice, where you Magic Jar into his body. So people basically experience a fight against 13 Glabrezu's and an infinite shadow army, plus whatever you have in the way of skeletons and zombies, and one of the glabrezu's casts Dread Necro spells.

Or you can be a Crusader I guess?

[Honest Tiefling]

I was still debating what to do about the AoP spells. Maybe they should only get AoP spells of up to a certain level, or AOP spells have their level increased for the healer? (So a 1st level AoP spell is a 3rd level spell for a healer, etc?) Trying to find a middle ground to put the healer is in tier 3.

Could take the lazy route and give them an ability like the Beguiler's Advanced Learning where they add spells fitting a certain criteria at certain levels to their list. People tend to like cutomiztation, and this way you can give the healer a bit of a different flavor, say, a druidic flavor, with the right buff spells...Now I wish I could join this game, the healer is looking mighty interesting.

And yes, I got Skirmish and Sudden Strike mixed up, can't you tell I play non-spellcasters often?

Also, I would not be terribly surprised if gadren was hiding the monster rules, given that he's recruiting here. What would be the fun of knowing everything you'll encounter?

[gadren]

So the following doesn't really have anything to do with re-balancing classes or magic items, it has more to just do with the flavor of the campaign world:

RACES OF BARDAWIL
The humanoid races of Bardawil fall into 4 categories: humans, fey, cursed, and half-bloods

Humans:
Humans control most of civilization in Bardawil, and can be encountered anywhere on the continent. They are said to be the most populous race, but it is hard to say for sure when compared to the Cursed.
Humans have formed a variety of cultures, so not many accurate generalizations can be made about them. Most humans (though not necessarily most human adventurers) have a complete absence of magic in their blood, making them completely incapable of wielding any kind of supernatural powers at all. As a result, many humans tend to distrust magic, adventurers, and all non-human peoples.
Humans greatest strength is their adaptability. Unlike the Fey, they are not physiologically bound to one location or lifestyle, and can excel at doing whatever they choose to do with their lives.
Rules Changes: In addition to the standard bonuses for being human, humans gain:
- Traits: humans get two bonus traits at character creation (for four total), and are allowed to take multiple traits from the same list.
- Mundane Blood (optional): Humans may choose to start play with Mundane Blood. A character with mundane blood cannot cast spells, manifest psionic powers, use psionic or spell-like abilities, or use any supernatural abilities. They also have a -5 penalty to Use Magic Device checks, but are otherwise not penalized for using magic items (even wands and scrolls, if they can make the skill check with the penalty).
However, Mundane-Blooded characters may roll twice on any saving throw they make against spells, psionic powers, suernatural abilities, or psionic or spell-like abilities, and if they are not normally allowed a save, they may attempt a DC 30 save (GM decides if Fortitude, Reflex, or Will is most appropriate) to negate the effect.
A human with Mundane Blood can lose that quality in the course of play by making certain pacts with supernatural entities. There are no known ways for one without Mundane Blood to later gain that quality.

Fey:
Dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes... basically all non-human humanoids in Bardawil (other than half-bloods, reptilians, goblinoids, and orcs) are actually just different aspects of the same race: the Fey. Fey are a supernatural race connected to the Ley Lines that crisscross the whole world; which Ley Line intersection a Fey is born closest to determines its aspect - the aspect of the parents is irrelevant. For example, the Ley Lines under Mt. Tuma'Nigoyah resonate with an energy that is attuned to Dwarven fey. All Fey born on Tuma'Nigoyah are therefore Dwarves, even if their parents were Elves.
All Fey age at the same rate as and eat and sleep as much as humans of the same age until they reach adolescence. After that, they age at only a tenth of the human rate and require only a forth as much food and sleep as long as they stay within 20 miles of their place of birth. If they stray further than that, they age, eat, and sleep as a human until they return.
Fey are also attuned to their native environment, regardless of their distance from their birth place. This mystical connection grants them a small amount of supernatural power while in their attuned terrain.
A new Fey cannot be conceived until another Fey has died somewhere in the world, keeping their numbers low when compared to the ever-growing numbers of Humans and Cursed. The Fey believe this is proof that all Fey that die are reincarnated as a new Fey soon after, and simply can't remember their past lives.
Rules Changes: All humanoid races OTHER than humans, half-elves, half-orcs, reptilian humanoids, goblinoid humanoids, and orcs gain the following in addition to their standard racial traits:
- Type changes to fey. However, they are also still affected by any effect that only works on humanoids (such as charm person, enlarge person, hold person, etc.)
- Gain the Fey Magic racial trait (as described for Elves in Heroes of the Wild, but without replacing another racial trait). The selected terrain type must match the Fey's place of birth.
- Gain the Favored Terrain feature (as if a 3rd level ranger). The selected terrain must be the same as for Fey Magic.
- Any caster level the Fey has is boosted by +2 while within 20 miles of their birthplace.

Cursed:
Reptilians, goblinoids, and orcs are part of a race called the Cursed. They were once Fey, but they lost their connection to the Ley Lines long ago. There are many contradicting folktales about how this happened, but no one seems to know for certain what the true story of the Cursed's origin is. The Cursed possess a lower capacity for empathy and a natural inclination toward aggression. Though some are able to control their brutish nature, most cursed seem to live in a constant state of fight or flight and are always on the lookout for potential enemies.
The cursed age twice as fast and eat twice as much as humans. Most meet violent ends before reaching middle age, but since the Cursed always give birth to twins, triplets, or quadruplets and do so frequently, they never seem to be in danger of going extinct.
Rule Changes: All goblinoid humanoids, reptilian humanoids, and orcs gain the following:
- type changes to humanoid (cursed)
- gains a +2 bonus to perception, stealth, and bluff, and a +5 bonus to intimidation
- all Cursed start with the Sneak Attack feature as if a 1st level rogue, except their sneak attack only does 1d3 damage
- Mundane Blood (optional): Cursed may choose to start play with Mundane Blood. A character with mundane blood cannot cast spells, manifest psionic powers, use psionic or spell-like abilities, or use any supernatural abilities. They also have a -5 penalty to Use Magic Device checks, but are otherwise not penalized for using magic items (even wands and scrolls, if they can make the skill check with the penalty).
However, Mundane-Blooded characters may roll twice on any saving throw they make against spells, psionic powers, suernatural abilities, or psionic or spell-like abilities, and if they are not normally allowed a save, they may attempt a DC 30 save (GM decides if Fortitude, Reflex, or Will is most appropriate) to negate the effect.
A Cursed with Mundane Blood can lose that quality in the course of play by making certain pacts with supernatural entities. There are no known ways for one without Mundane Blood to later gain that quality.

Half-Bloods:
Also called "half-breeds, mutts, mongrels" and other less-than-polite names, Half-Bloods are those people of Bardawil that have mixed ancestry. Most often, half of that ancestry is human, but it is not unheard of for one to have a mix of Fey and Cursed ancestry with no human parentage. Half-bloods eat, sleep, and age the same as humans.
There are two types of Half-Bloods: the Half-Fey and the Jinxed.

Half-Fey: "Half-Fey" refers to those that have human and fey parentage. Just as with the full-blooded Fey parent, a Half-Fey's aspect is determined by where they are born, not what their Fey parent is. For example, the child of a human and an elf that is born on the Dwarven mountain of Tuma'Nigoyah would be a half-dwarf.
Rule Changes: The Half-Elf race is changed as follows:
-Is called "Half-Fey" instead of "Half-Elf"
-Lose human and elf subtypes and elf language.
-Choose your fey aspect (dwarf, elf, gnome, etc). Your physical appearance is a mix between human and your chosen fey aspect. If your chosen fey aspect is small-sized, you may choose to be small-sized at character creation (this choice is permanent).
-Elf Blood is renamed "Fey Blood", and allows you to be treated as a human and your selected fey aspect for the purposes of this feature. You also have those subtypes.
-Lose Elven Immunities. Gain one racial trait of your choice (including alternate racial traits, but other than ability score bonuses) from your chosen Fey Aspect and from the human race.

Jinxed: "Jinxed" refers to those with a mix of Cursed parentage and either human or Fey heritage. The Jinxed have very diverse physical appearances based on their parentage, place of birth, and just plain luck. Some look grotesque, some look exotic, some are shorter than halflings and others stand over seven feet tall. The "Jinxed" probably have the most difficult time fitting in anywhere in Bardawil, as they are generally treated as outcasts in almost every society on the continent.
Rule Changes: The Half-Orc race is changed as follows:
-Is called "Jinxed" instead of "Half-Orc"
-Lose human and orc subtypes and orc language.
-Choose your Cursed heritage (orc, kobold, goblin, etc.), and your non-Cursed heritage (human or any fey aspect). Your physical appearance is a mix between your Cursed and non-Cursed heritage. If either of your heritages are from a small-sized race, you may choose to be small-sized at character creation (this choice is permanent). If both heritages are small-sized, then you must be small-sized.
-Orc Blood is renamed "Cursed Blood", and allows you to be treated as a member of both of your selected heritages for the purposes of this feature. You also gain the subtypes from both of your heritages.
-Change Weapon Ferocity's text so "orc" is replaced with one of your chosen heritages.
-Lose Orc Ferocity. Gain one racial trait of your choice (including alternate racial traits, but other than ability score bonuses) from your chosen Cursed Heritage and from your chosen non-Cursed heritage.

EDIT:
Level Adjusted races:
Level adjusted races do not get fewer class levels than other races, nor are they forced to start at a higher level. However, they have other restrictions to balance them out:

The following applies to all LA races:
Races with racial hitdice: Remove all racial hitdice.
Races with ability scores bonuses of more than +4: Reduce any ability scores bonus of +6 or higher to a +4.

The following applies to races with a specific level adjustment:
LA +1: If the race has more than a total of +4 in ability scores bonuses (including penalties), reduce the bonuses until the total is +4. Then, choose ONE of the following options: take a -2 penalty to an ability score of your choice, lose 1 feat, or take at least 1 level in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class.
LA +2: Take at least 2 levels in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class. At level 5, you may replace* one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level).
LA +3: Take at least 3 levels in Warrior, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner instead of a PC class. At level 6, you may replace* one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level). At level 9, you may give up your 9th level feat in exchange for replacing another level in your NPC class with a PC level.
LA +4 or More: Not allowed as a player race.
Level Adjustment Templates: LA +1 templates must take a level in an NPC class, and only templates approved by the GM for player use are allowed. The GM may alter the LA of a template for balance reasons.

*Replacing the NPC levels follows the level retraining process steps found on page 198 of the PHB2.

[nedz]

As for the Glabrezu business, it's just using planar binding. In normal 3.5 the DN can't technically do this because it lacks the magic circle spells.

Arcane Disciple solves this issue.

[gadren]

1) Rebuke a shadow, have the shadow kill a rabbit, the rabbit is raised as a shadow under the control of the shadow you already control, also you could rebuke the new shadow, if you cared. Repeat for infinite shadow army that are all rebuked under your direct control.

2) Planar Binding a Glabrezu inside a Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchored, (in a regular game, from wizards or clerics or wands/eternal wands of paladin spell for lower CL and cheaper, not sure where Dimensional Anchor would come from in this game, but probably findable), then negotiate a deal where in exchange for not murdering him right that second with all the traps you set up in the room, he will serve you for X days (this could be CL days, but you might agree to some smaller number) fighting for you as a minion in all the fights you take part in for that time period. Repeat as many times as you have spell slots. Heck, do it again the next day. On the third day go adventuring with 8 CR 12 monsters as your pets, also, the 9th one you Planar Bind him, and then either negotiate the service, or not, your choice, where you Magic Jar into his body. So people basically experience a fight against 13 Glabrezu's and an infinite shadow army, plus whatever you have in the way of skeletons and zombies, and one of the glabrezu's casts Dread Necro spells.

Or you can be a Crusader I guess?

1) As has been pointed out, the second one shadow in that chain is killed, you lose control of all the spawns underneath it in the "tree".
2) It just sounds to me as if I should fix Planar Binding by limiting the caster to one "contract" at a time. I'm surprised no one has tried that cheese with me before.

[Honest Tiefling]

You might be better off with a gentleman's agreement of not to do anything overly powerful/game breaking, given the tier range. If your players haven't done it, they might not even be interested in trying it, so why not spend the time on the setting and buffing bad classes? (I think the samurai is still in the corner sobbing and eating ice cream) Of course, this depends on your players and the type of people they are.

[gadren]

You might be better off with a gentleman's agreement of not to do anything overly powerful/game breaking, given the tier range. If your players haven't done it, they might not even be interested in trying it, so why not spend the time on the setting and buffing bad classes? (I think the samurai is still in the corner sobbing and eating ice cream) Of course, this depends on your players and the type of people they are.

Well I'm putting out an open call for new players since only a couple members of my regular group have time for another campaign. Who knows what kinds of cheese-weasels I might get? :P

And I haven't buffed samurai because I'm thinking of just banning it. It is a terrible class whose flavor doesn't fit all that well and even with a refluff I don't see what niche it fills that isn't covered by one of the other fighting classes.

[Beheld]

1) As has been pointed out, the second one shadow in that chain is killed, you lose control of all the spawns underneath it in the "tree".
2) It just sounds to me as if I should fix Planar Binding by limiting the caster to one "contract" at a time. I'm surprised no one has tried that cheese with me before.

1) As pointed out by me, you can rebuke all the shadows spawned by the second shadow, and then it doesn't matter if the second shadow dies, because you control all of them.
2) There are lots of different fixes of varying degrees for Planar Binding, but notice that even limiting it to one contract at a time still means that your level 12 Dread Necromancer adventures in the body of a Glabrezu with a bunch of Fire Giant Skeletons (and shadow army, but that is a separate problem) and another Glabrezu. And since Glabrezu are CR 12, you are basically two level 12 characters instead of one.

My person favorite are the Tome of Fiends rules, which specifically define what a contract can and cannot do:

Called creatures will not agree to any services that are suicidal, self-destructive (like submitting to mind-control magic), or involve permanent self-sacrifice (like expending XP). They will also not agree to tasks that are impossible, or tasks that are so open-ended that could easily result in the creature’s destruction.

Things you can ask a creature to do:

Participate in a single battle
Use a single use of one of its own abilities.
Seek out an individual and either kill them or bring them to the summoner.
Guard a spot for as long as the summoning spell lasts.
Use a magic item
Provide the results of one skill check
Perform one task that does not involve any danger (like delivering a message by a safe route, survey a safe land, or dig a hole in an uncontested piece of land, etc)
Offer their use-name*
Surrender personal treasure*

*these tasks require a successful Intimidate check.

Things that creatures will do for free (not services):

Wait in a safe place in order to perform a service.
Discuss the services they are willing to perform, and payment for those services.
Exclude individuals from services (“kill anyone who enters except me”, “tell me about everyone you saw in the tunnel except the sorceress”)

Some things demons won’t do, even under pain of death or destruction:

Surrender their true name
Voluntarily fail a save vs. an effect that would enslave or kill the demon
Agree to unlimited service for a time period (for example, “Do my bidding for a week.”)
Guard an individual for a time period.
Agree to not act in a situation (for example, they will not agree to not act while someone builds a prison around them).
Wait in an obviously dangerous place (“just wait in front of that army of archons, and shoot the first one”).
Perform an act that would violate its alignment or code of conduct.

So it means if you devote 3-4 days off to just Planar Binding, then for a couple days you can have a Glabrezu assist you in every fight, but investing that time that way when you have the chance is cool, totally the purpose of Planar Binding, and really not that OP, especially since you are a class that has a worse total spell list specifically because you are a minionmancer.

[gadren]

1) As pointed out by me, you can rebuke all the shadows spawned by the second shadow, and then it doesn't matter if the second shadow dies, because you control all of them.
2) There are lots of different fixes of varying degrees for Planar Binding, but notice that even limiting it to one contract at a time still means that your level 12 Dread Necromancer adventures in the body of a Glabrezu with a bunch of Fire Giant Skeletons (and shadow army, but that is a separate problem) and another Glabrezu. And since Glabrezu are CR 12, you are basically two level 12 characters instead of one.

My person favorite are the Tome of Fiends rules, which specifically define what a contract can and cannot do:

Called creatures will not agree to any services that are suicidal, self-destructive (like submitting to mind-control magic), or involve permanent self-sacrifice (like expending XP). They will also not agree to tasks that are impossible, or tasks that are so open-ended that could easily result in the creature’s destruction.

Things you can ask a creature to do:

Participate in a single battle
Use a single use of one of its own abilities.
Seek out an individual and either kill them or bring them to the summoner.
Guard a spot for as long as the summoning spell lasts.
Use a magic item
Provide the results of one skill check
Perform one task that does not involve any danger (like delivering a message by a safe route, survey a safe land, or dig a hole in an uncontested piece of land, etc)
Offer their use-name*
Surrender personal treasure*

*these tasks require a successful Intimidate check.

Things that creatures will do for free (not services):

Wait in a safe place in order to perform a service.
Discuss the services they are willing to perform, and payment for those services.
Exclude individuals from services (“kill anyone who enters except me”, “tell me about everyone you saw in the tunnel except the sorceress”)

Some things demons won’t do, even under pain of death or destruction:

Surrender their true name
Voluntarily fail a save vs. an effect that would enslave or kill the demon
Agree to unlimited service for a time period (for example, “Do my bidding for a week.”)
Guard an individual for a time period.
Agree to not act in a situation (for example, they will not agree to not act while someone builds a prison around them).
Wait in an obviously dangerous place (“just wait in front of that army of archons, and shoot the first one”).
Perform an act that would violate its alignment or code of conduct.

So it means if you devote 3-4 days off to just Planar Binding, then for a couple days you can have a Glabrezu assist you in every fight, but investing that time that way when you have the chance is cool, totally the purpose of Planar Binding, and really not that OP, especially since you are a class that has a worse total spell list specifically because you are a minionmancer.

Even without making special house rules, I would rule that Summon Undead would not allow the use of Create Spawn, as the spell says it works like Summon Monster, and Summon Monster specifically says that your summoned monsters can't conjure new monsters. You might interpret it differently, but you're not the DM (and honestly I don't know of any DM's that would allow it). Also, you can only command up to your hitdice in undead, and though there are ways to increase that, if a high up link in your chain is "broken" in practice you may find it difficult to re-establish control over your army.

As for Binding, the spells are limited by what the Outsider will agree to do. Maybe he doesn't care if you kill his body, since it is going to reform in the abyss anyway?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Even without making special house rules, I would rule that Summon Undead would not allow the use of Create Spawn, as the spell says it works like Summon Monster, and Summon Monster specifically says that your summoned monsters can't conjure new monsters. You might interpret it differently, but you're not the DM (and honestly I don't know of any DM's that would allow it). Also, you can only command up to your hitdice in undead, and though there are ways to increase that, if a high up link in your chain is "broken" in practice you may find it difficult to re-establish control over your army.

As for Binding, the spells are limited by what the Outsider will agree to do. Maybe he doesn't care if you kill his body, since it is going to reform in the abyss anyway?

The monsters aren't conjured, they are made. Easiest way to avoid this is to just houserule it "no." What makes this trick brutal if I am only controlling my hitdice in undead (or perhaps not even). I control 1 shadow which controls all the other shadows for me. If the 1st is destroyed I just need to control the ones it spawned. If I limit that to say 2 (and those 2 make 2 each, etc).

Also an outsider summoned by binding that dies suffers a true death. Only summoned monsters survive their deaths.

[gadren]

The monsters aren't conjured, they are made. Easiest way to avoid this is to just houserule it "no." What makes this trick brutal if I am only controlling my hitdice in undead (or perhaps not even). I control 1 shadow which controls all the other shadows for me. If the 1st is destroyed I just need to control the ones it spawned. If I limit that to say 2 (and those 2 make 2 each, etc).

Also an outsider summoned by binding that dies suffers a true death. Only summoned monsters survive their deaths.

This is the last I'm going to say on the issue because it is veering away from the point of the thread, but I would rule that made = conjured. You are free to interpret it however you want when you DM.

And "true death" kind of depends on the campaign's cosmology. I know in FR lore that killing a demon on the material plane merely banishes it to the Abyss for 1001 years or something like that. I plan on using a similar cosmological system for Bardawil.

[Beheld]

Even without making special house rules, I would rule that Summon Undead would not allow the use of Create Spawn, as the spell says it works like Summon Monster, and Summon Monster specifically says that your summoned monsters can't conjure new monsters. You might interpret it differently, but you're not the DM (and honestly I don't know of any DM's that would allow it). Also, you can only command up to your hitdice in undead, and though there are ways to increase that, if a high up link in your chain is "broken" in practice you may find it difficult to re-establish control over your army.

It doesn't matter whether you come up with some method of claiming that the Dread Necro can't use a specific spell to begin the chain. At that point you as a DM are committed to not allowing any spawn creating undead to exist anywhere in your world. That is a bridge too far. Also, that is definitely you creating a special house rule, but refusing to call it that. You should probably just be honest about the fact that you are houseruling it.

And this theory about breaking the chain is a typical nonsense nonsolution. You have one shadow who creates all other shadows then you store him in portable hole or lead box or something, it doesn't matter. If you are saying "The Dread Necro loses his army if he doesn't take precautions" then he takes precautions.


As for Binding, the spells are limited by what the Outsider will agree to do. Maybe he doesn't care if you kill his body, since it is going to reform in the abyss anyway?

It doesn't matter whether or not he cares. If he truly doesn't care even at all, then you get a +0 to the repeatable Charisma check on your Charisma based Caster. You still win the Charisma check anyway, because you are a Dread Necro. Planar Binding gives you minions that serve you for Caster level days under the rules, that is literally it's purpose and effect.

The only other way to use it at all is to call demons from the abyss, kill them with a room full of traps, and then animate dead their corpse.

[gadren]

After working all day on it, I posted Draft 5. Added and changed a lot of stuff.

Some highlights:
Added a bunch of stuff that goes towards making all the classes near tier 3.

Added new uses to skills that alleviate some magic item dependency (several skills emulate the function of items from the "necessary magic items" list).
Added rules to nip the problems Beheld was going on about. (No more command chaining. Binding toned down.)
Added a section about Races of Bardawil.
Added some rules for a Good-Aligned Dread Necro ACF "Spirit Guide"
Made a bunch of other little edits to various stuff


I'd particularly like input on the new Dread Necro ACF (this has more to do with the request of a potential player than the balancing goals. Please let me know if you think if the Spirit Guide acf goes too far.):

Spirit Guide - Spirit Guides are Dread Necromancers of good or neutral alignments. They call upon lost souls and give them a way to perform penance so that they may one day find their way to the afterlife, and act as an intermediary between the living and the dead. Spirit Guides can be recognized by the large amount of water they carry with them - they need at least 3 gallons to cast their spells, which they can transmute into water from the Five Rivers of Daseh to draw spirits to them.
Spirit Guides remove the following spells from the spell list: Contagion, Death Knell, Eyebite, Imprison Soul, Unhallow, Vile Death
Spirit Guides add the following spells to their spell list: Astral Projection, Charm Ghost, Death Lock, Detect Ghost, Dispel Possession, Dominate Ghost, Forced Incorporeality, Forced Manifestation, Ghost Companion, Ghost Lock, Ghost Touch Armor, Hail of Ectoplasm, Hallow, Hold Ghost, Incorporeal Disharmonics, Leech Ghost Skill, Persuade to Manifest, Pleasant Visage, Proper State, Protection from Negative Energy, Raise Ghost, Song of the Calling
Spirit Guides have their spells changed as follows:

Summon Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Any undead summoned by this spell have at least 6 intelligence and a fragmented memory of their life. Their alignment remains what it was in life instead of being changed to evil. Any corporeal undead summoned by this spell instead takes the form of a dark water elemental that mirrors how the chosen undead creature would have looked in life, reflecting the visage of the spirit on its surface instead of reflecting the world around it. (For example, instead of a human warrior skeleton, you summon a water elemental that looks like the human warrior.) The chosen undead has the same combat statistics as its normal form, except its attacks deal cold damage, it gains the elemental subtype, it loses any DR it normally has, and gains DR 5/bludgeoning. Incorporeal undead do not have their statistics changed except for alignment, but their appearance changes subtly so they are more recognizable to those who may have known them.
Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Plague of Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Though the spell still requires the physical remains, they are not animated nor disturbed by the spell. Undead created by these spells are altered as described above for Summon Undead.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'd particularly like input on the new Dread Necro ACF (this has more to do with the request of a potential player than the balancing goals. Please let me know if you think if the Spirit Guide acf goes too far.):

Spirit Guide - Spirit Guides are Dread Necromancers of good or neutral alignments. They call upon lost souls and give them a way to perform penance so that they may one day find their way to the afterlife, and act as an intermediary between the living and the dead. Spirit Guides can be recognized by the large amount of water they carry with them - they need at least 3 gallons to cast their spells, which they can transmute into water from the Five Rivers of Daseh to draw spirits to them.
Spirit Guides remove the following spells from the spell list: Contagion, Death Knell, Eyebite, Imprison Soul, Unhallow, Vile Death
Spirit Guides add the following spells to their spell list: Astral Projection, Charm Ghost, Death Lock, Detect Ghost, Dispel Possession, Dominate Ghost, Forced Incorporeality, Forced Manifestation, Ghost Companion, Ghost Lock, Ghost Touch Armor, Hail of Ectoplasm, Hallow, Hold Ghost, Incorporeal Disharmonics, Leech Ghost Skill, Persuade to Manifest, Pleasant Visage, Proper State, Protection from Negative Energy, Raise Ghost, Song of the Calling
Spirit Guides have their spells changed as follows:

Summon Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Any undead summoned by this spell have at least 6 intelligence and a fragmented memory of their life. Their alignment remains what it was in life instead of being changed to evil. Any corporeal undead summoned by this spell instead takes the form of a dark water elemental that mirrors how the chosen undead creature would have looked in life, reflecting the visage of the spirit on its surface instead of reflecting the world around it. (For example, instead of a human warrior skeleton, you summon a water elemental that looks like the human warrior.) The chosen undead has the same combat statistics as its normal form, except its attacks deal cold damage, it gains the elemental subtype, it loses any DR it normally has, and gains DR 5/bludgeoning. Incorporeal undead do not have their statistics changed except for alignment, but their appearance changes subtly so they are more recognizable to those who may have known them.
Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Plague of Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Though the spell still requires the physical remains, they are not animated nor disturbed by the spell. Undead created by these spells are altered as described above for Summon Undead.

I would play the crud out of that. Non-evil dread necromancer that keeps the dread necromancer goodies? Yes please! Ultimately you lose some spells I almost never both with anyway for some niche spells, but the core list is unchanged so that is good. The keeping massive quantities of water is purely a fluff limit, so this ends up being almost strictly better than Dread Necromancer. Not sure if that concerns you, but it seems really cool IMHO.

[gadren]

I would play the crud out of that. Non-evil dread necromancer that keeps the dread necromancer goodies? Yes please! Ultimately you lose some spells I almost never both with anyway for some niche spells, but the core list is unchanged so that is good. The keeping massive quantities of water is purely a fluff limit, so this ends up being almost strictly better than Dread Necromancer. Not sure if that concerns you, but it seems really cool IMHO.

I'm glad you like it!
I think it doesn't end up being that much better, since a lot of the spells added are pretty situational in their usefulness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm glad you like it!
I think it doesn't end up being that much better, since a lot of the spells added are pretty situational in their usefulness.

Summoned undead being sentient is a good buff. And stripping evil off of the undead spells in general is nice. The gap is not huge but it is real. I would not worry about it being too strong. It sits nicely in tier 3 where it belongs. I also fully intend to to make this 3.5 and steal this. You will be credited.

[Vhaidara]

The thing is, situational power IS pure power for a list caster like Dread Necro. For a sorcerer there's "is it worth knowing" and for a wizard there's "is it worth preparing", but for a list caster, it's "hey, i have a thing for that".

[gadren]

So, the last classes I think I'm going to update (unless anyone can think of any others) are the Dragonfire Adept and the Dragon Shaman, since they are particularly fitting to the campaign's Kingdom of Ragdnos. I'm upgrading Dragonfire Adept slightly, and making Dragon Shaman into an optional archetype since I think the classes are kind of redundant.

Please let me know what you think. Are these all Tier 3? Please note that I do NOT rule that the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapons meet the prereq for Metabreath feats.

Dragonfire Adept: gains the following:

Enhanced Breath Weapon: At 1st level, the Dragonfire Adept gains a bonus to damage with their breath weapon equal to their constitution modifier + their class level.
Draconic Senses: At 2nd level, the Dragonfire Adept gains Darkvision 60ft. At 7th level, they gain Blindsense 30ft. At 12th level, the range of both of these doubles.
Enhanced Scales: At 3rd level, the bonus of the Dragonfire Adept's Scales class feature is improved by their constitution modifier (in addition to the listed bonus).
Draconic Resolve: At 4th level, Dragonfire Adepts gain immunity to paralysis and sleep effects. They also become immune to the frightful presence of dragons. (This replaces the Immunities features normally gained by Dragonfire Adepts at 19th level.)
Damage Reduction: Starting at 5th level, the Dragonfire Adept gains DR 5/Magic. This reduction improves by 1 per class level. (This replaces the Damage Reduction normally granted to Dragonfire Adepts at 6th level.)
Energy Immunity: At 9th level, Dragonfire Adepts gain immunity to fire damage.
Draconic Wings: At 19th level, Dragonfire Adepts grow a pair of wings that resemble those of a dragon. They allow flight at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). They can even fly while carrying a medium load, though their fly speed drops to 40 feet in this case.



Dragonfire Adept Archetypes:

Dragonfire Shaman:
You draw your powers from your dragon totem instead of just your own blood.
Loses: The Dragonfire Shaman does NOT gain the following Dragonfire Adept class features: Enhanced Breath Weapon (keeps standard Breath Weapon feature), Enhanced Scales (keeps standard Scales feature), Damage Reduction, and Draconic Senses
Gains: The Dragonfire Shaman gains the following features as described under the Dragon Shaman class: Draconic Aura, Totem Dragon, Draconic Adaptation, Touch of Vitality, and Commune with Dragon Spirit. The Dragonfire Shaman gains the features at the same level as a Dragon Shaman of the same level, and improves those features at the same levels as described for Dragon Shaman well.
Furthermore, the energy type for the Dragonfire Shaman's Breath Weapon and Energy Immunity class features changes to match the element of their chosen Dragon Totem.

Dragonclaw Adept:
Dragonclaw adepts focus more on the physical power of Dragons.
Loses: Enhanced Breath Weapon (keeps standard Breath Weapon feature), Draconic Wings, the Breath Effects learned at levels 2, 10, and 15, and the Invocations learned at levels 3, 8, and 13th.
Gains:
Fury: Dragonclaw Adepts gain a bonus to all attack rolls with natural weapons equal to 1+1/2 their character level.
Talons: At 1st level, the Dragonclaw Adept's fingers are sharped into talons, granting them two claw attacks. These claws deal the same amount of damage as a Monk's Unarmed Strike of the Dragonclaw Adept's class level.
Toothy Maw: At 3rd level, the Dragonclaw Adept gains a bite attack that does 1d10 damage.
Burning Maw: At 5th level, the Dragonclaw Adept may choose to add their breath weapon damage to any bite attack that they hit with.
Dragon's Fury: At 7th level, the Dragonclaw Adept may choose to use their breath weapon and make one claw attack as a single full-round action. This increases to two claw attacks at 9th level, three claw attacks at 12th level, four claw attacks at 16th level, and five claw attacks at 20th level. The Dragonclaw Adept may opt to make a bite attack in place of a breath weapon attack. Each of these attacks are treated as secondary attacks with natural weapons and takes penalties accordingly. This is treated as a full-attack for any effects that affect full-attacks, such as the haste spell.

[gadren]

After some review of Spirit Guide, I realized two things. One, there were still a number of Dread Necromancer spells and features left that didn't fit Spirit Guide well (like turning into a Lich, spreading disease at will, evil-only familiars, the various vermin spells). Two, some of the stuff I added to Spirit Guide made just as much sense for a normal Dread Necromancer. So I'm tweaking both the core class and the archetype:

Changes to Dread Necromancer class:
1) Adds the following spells to its class spell list (All 0th level spells may be cast at-will): 0th: Deathwatch, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound (School changed to necromancy), Mage Hand (School changed to necromancy), Touch of Fatigue, Unnerving Gaze; 1st: Protection from Negative Energy; 2nd: Death Armor, Disguise Undead, Ghost Touch Armor, Hail of Ectoplasm, Summon Ghostly Ally I*, Undead Eyes; 3rd: Summon Ghostly Ally II*; 4th: Raise Ghost, Summon Ghostly Ally III*; 5th: Leech Ghost Skill, Summon Ghostly Ally IV*; 6th: Summon Ghostly Ally V*; 7th: Summon Ghostly Ally VI*; 8th: General of Undeath, Summon Ghostly Ally VII*; 9th: Summon Ghostly Ally VIII*
2) Loses Rebuke Undead, and gains the Channel Negative Energy class feature (as a Pathfinder Cleric) and Command Undead as a bonus feat.

*Summon Ghostly Ally: As Summon Nature's Ally of the same number, except only creatures with a charisma of 6 or higher may be summoned and have the Ghost template applied with the following modifications: hit points and AC are unchanged by the ghost template, no Rejuvenation ability, no modification to ability scores, and special attack is pre-set. Ghosts summoned with Summon Ghostly Ally I-III only have the Corrupt Touch attack. Summon Ghostly Ally of IV and above also gets Draining Touch.

Spirit Guide Archetype for the Dread Necromancer:
Spirit Guide - Spirit Guides are Dread Necromancers of good or neutral alignments. They call upon lost souls and give them a way to perform penance so that they may one day find their way to the afterlife, and act as an intermediary between the living and the dead. Spirit Guides can be recognized by the large amount of water they carry with them - they need at least 3 gallons to cast their spells, which they can transmute into water from the Five Rivers of Daseh to draw spirits to them.

Spirit Guides remove the following spells from the spell list: Blight, Contagion, Death Armor, Death Knell, Eyebite, General of Undeath, Giant Vermin, Imprison Soul, Insect Plague, Summon Swarm, Undetectable Alignment, Unhallow, Vile Death

Spirit Guides also lose the following class features: Scabrous Touch, Craft Wondrous Item

Spirit Guides add the following spells to their spell list: 0th: Detect Ghost; 1st: Charm Ghost, Incorporeal Disharmonics, Pleasant Visage, Protection from Possession; 2nd: Delay Manifestation, Ethereal Alarm, Ghost Companion, Ghost Lock, Persuade to Manifest; 3rd: Death Lock, Forced Incorporeality, Forced Manifestation; 4th: Dispel Possession, Proper State, Song of the Calling; 5th: Dominate Ghost, Hallow; 9th: Astral Projection

Spirit Guides modifies the following class features:

Charnel Touch: The Spirit Guide can choose to do nonlethal damage with this power. At level 6, Charnel Touch also fatigues a touched target for 1 round. At level 11, it exhausts a touched target for 1 round.
Lich Body: Is renamed Spirit Armor, and has nothing to do with turning into a lich.
Summon Familiar: The only option available from this list is a ghostly visage. However, the Spirit Guide may instead choose any familiar with a charisma of 6 or higher that is available to a wizard of the same level as the Spirit Guide, but with the Ghost template applied to that familiar.
Lich Transformation: Is renamed Haunted, and applies the Haunted One template instead of the Lich Template. The rider's alignment matches the Spirit Guide's alignment, and it is unable to harm the Spirit Guide in any way.

Spirit Guides have their spells changed as follows:
Deathwatch: Loses the evil descriptor.
Summon Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Any undead summoned by this spell have at least 6 intelligence and a fragmented memory of their life. Their alignment remains what it was in life instead of being changed to evil. Any corporeal undead summoned by this spell instead takes the form of a dark water elemental that mirrors how the chosen undead creature would have looked in life, reflecting the visage of the spirit on its surface instead of reflecting the world around it. (For example, instead of a human warrior skeleton, you summon a water elemental that looks like the human warrior.) The chosen undead has the same combat statistics as its normal form, except its attacks deal cold damage, it gains the elemental subtype, it loses any DR it normally has, and gains DR 5/bludgeoning. Incorporeal undead do not have their statistics changed except for alignment, but their appearance changes subtly so they are more recognizable to those who may have known them.
Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Plague of Undead: Loses the evil descriptor. Though the spell still requires the physical remains, they are not animated nor disturbed by the spell. Undead created by these spells are altered as described above for Summon Undead.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why would Spirit Guides not have Undetectable Alignment? Some may be sneaky and try to get into places of necromancers or captive souls to free them so that they can go to the afterlife. Some may just try to get into places that outsiders aren't allowed in to do the same.

[gadren]

Why would Spirit Guides not have Undetectable Alignment? Some may be sneaky and try to get into places of necromancers or captive souls to free them so that they can go to the afterlife. Some may just try to get into places that outsiders aren't allowed in to do the same.

It's not that I don't think it's something they could use, just like I'm sure some of the ghost-focused spells I only gave Spirit Guides would be useful to all Dread Necros in general, it's just a matter of making the trade-off a bit more fair from a mechanical standpoint, and reflecting the focus of Spirits Guides vs Dread Necros from a fluff standpoint.

[The Viscount]

I'm a tad concerned about the undead's attacks dealing cold damage, I'd be fine with a bit of extra cold damage (like free deadly chill) but just having flat cold damage seems a bit much, mostly because it bypasses DR at lower levels (when it matters).

[gadren]

I'm a tad concerned about the undead's attacks dealing cold damage, I'd be fine with a bit of extra cold damage (like free deadly chill) but just having flat cold damage seems a bit much, mostly because it bypasses DR at lower levels (when it matters).

I'd have to run the numbers to be sure, but I feel like there is more cold resistance out there than DR, and in greater amounts. I actually thought it was a downgrade.

[gadren]

I started putting together a website for the campaign. It's still rough, but if anyone wants to check it out:
https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/home

Another thing I was thinking of doing, story-wise, was saying that in the past, someone at one of the now-destroyed magical colleges ****ed up their spell research and created a magical plague that attacks male infants. As a result, 60% of male babies die in their first year, and so women outnumber men by more than two to one. Thus, there is even more distrust of magic, because the repercussions of careless experimentation are still felt, and women are no one feels compelled to relegate women to their more typical roles in medieval history or fantasy literature based on it.

[Honest Tiefling]

Eh...I'd avoid it, unless you want to explore the concept of men being rarer.

If you want a more equal society...I really don't think you need much of an excuse. I've never really seen many people I didn't find immensely creepy for other reasons say that equality between the sexes ruined immersion. And some societies did have roles for women, such as the warrior women of the Scythian, Norse, and Mongols. I think if you just put in a bad*** warrior queen goddess who trains women to beat the snot out of anyone who complains, that's probably enough of a reason. It's pretty hard to argue against a warrior woman entering politics if she can kill you where you stand.

If anything, women might have different roles, as opposed to the same ones. You need those men, so they might get regulated to strength based tasks at home, such as smithing, masonry, etc. without risking them needlessly in combat. Combat might be focused around women, not men. They might not even be allowed to hunt or cut wood, as that might be too dangerous for such a scarce resource.

[gadren]

Eh...I'd avoid it, unless you want to explore the concept of men being rarer.

If you want a more equal society...I really don't think you need much of an excuse. I've never really seen many people I didn't find immensely creepy for other reasons say that equality between the sexes ruined immersion. And some societies did have roles for women, such as the warrior women of the Scythian, Norse, and Mongols. I think if you just put in a bad*** warrior queen goddess who trains women to beat the snot out of anyone who complains, that's probably enough of a reason. It's pretty hard to argue against a warrior woman entering politics if she can kill you where you stand.

If anything, women might have different roles, as opposed to the same ones. You need those men, so they might get regulated to strength based tasks at home, such as smithing, masonry, etc. without risking them needlessly in combat. Combat might be focused around women, not men. They might not even be allowed to hunt or cut wood, as that might be too dangerous for such a scarce resource.

Yeah, after some feedback I decided against it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am going to run a Spirit Guide (to test it out and to try to more in line with my party) but did change a few things up:
Since 3.5 actually has a good lich template, Craft Wondrous Item, Lich Body, and Lich Transformation are still in effect, except Lich Transformation turns you into a good lich.
This one was important: Undead that the Spirit Guide summons, creates, or animates do not gain skills or feats. They also do not gain the elemental subtype (as it does not exist in 3.5).
The ghost familiar needs a way to define how many special abilities the familiar gets. We are going with 3 and going from there.

[gadren]

I am going to run a Spirit Guide (to test it out and to try to more in line with my party) but did change a few things up:
Since 3.5 actually has a good lich template, Craft Wondrous Item, Lich Body, and Lich Transformation are still in effect, except Lich Transformation turns you into a good lich.
This one was important: Undead that the Spirit Guide summons, creates, or animates do not gain skills or feats. They also do not gain the elemental subtype (as it does not exist in 3.5).

Cool. I added a few more spells to the Spirit Guide that I didn't post here since the thread seemed dead (I'm now keeping the most up-to-date revisions on the campaign site (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/rules-for-advanced-players).) I added Helpful Hand, Choke, Slapping Hand, Caligarde's Claw, Spiritual Charger, Spiritual Cavalry, and Spiritual Guardian to the spelllist, with the addition that the magical force constructs in those spells are treated as undead creatures by any relevant mechanics.

[ZamielVanWeber]

My DM added Animate Image and Greater Animate Image to the spell list at 1st and 6th respectively.

I am not sure if you saw my edit but the ghost needed to have its special ability choices listed (we just went with a straight 3 since it comes online at 7th level).

Also there are some evil spells still on their list. I will run through and compile them later.

[gadren]

My DM added Animate Image and Greater Animate Image to the spell list at 1st and 6th respectively.

I am not sure if you saw my edit but the ghost needed to have its special ability choices listed (we just went with a straight 3 since it comes online at 7th level).

Also there are some evil spells still on their list. I will run through and compile them later.

Not familiar with Animate Image or Greater Animate Image. What are they from?

And yeah, if you catch any evil spells I missed, please let me know.

EDIT: Also, I'm not clear on the confusion for ghost familiar. It gains familiar abilities as a familiar of its level, and it gains ghost abilities using the familiar's HD.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Not familiar with Animate Image or Greater Animate Image. What are they from?

And yeah, if you catch any evil spells I missed, please let me know.

Animate Image is from Book of Erotic Fantasy. Greater Animate Image is a homebrewed spell that is designed to be an upgrade to Animate Image. The spells do what they sound for the most part: they create an image that acts out the targeted text.

After a check the only evil spell I could find was Nightmare.

I would consider adding Magic Circle Against Evil to their spell list. The Planar Binding spells needs Magic Circle to work.

Edit: The ghost problem only exists in 3.5. I will just use the pathfinder progression.

[gadren]

Animate Image is from Book of Erotic Fantasy. Greater Animate Image is a homebrewed spell that is designed to be an upgrade to Animate Image. The spells do what they sound for the most part: they create an image that acts out the targeted text.

After a check the only evil spell I could find was Nightmare.

I would consider adding Magic Circle Against Evil to their spell list. The Planar Binding spells needs Magic Circle to work.

Edit: The ghost problem only exists in 3.5. I will just use the pathfinder progression.

Ah, I don't use the BoEF.
That also reminds me that I wanted them to be able to use Planar Binding to call an undead in addition to outsiders and elementals.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ah, I don't use the BoEF.
That also reminds me that I wanted them to be able to use Planar Binding to call an undead in addition to outsiders and elementals.

There is a spell called (Lesser) Spirit Binding. It binds (IIRC) incorporeal undead, fae, elementals, and creatures with the spirit subtype. The final printing was in Complete Arcane. My DM also added Magic Circle Against Evil as a 3rd level spell so I can use the Bindings.

Edit: You have Detect Ghost as a 0th level spell. Dread Necromancers don't get a 0th level spell.

[gadren]

There is a spell called (Lesser) Spirit Binding. It binds (IIRC) incorporeal undead, fae, elementals, and creatures with the spirit subtype. The final printing was in Complete Arcane. My DM also added Magic Circle Against Evil as a 3rd level spell so I can use the Bindings.

it works on creatures with the spirit subtype. The oriental adventures book has a list of creatures that have it, including various fey, undead, dragons, and elementals, but doesn't include things such as wraiths and allips. I think it is more appropriate to just have them apply planar binding to incorporeal undead.

[ZamielVanWeber]

it works on creatures with the spirit subtype. The oriental adventures book has a list of creatures that have it, including various fey, undead, dragons, and elementals, but doesn't include things such as wraiths and allips. I think it is more appropriate to just have them apply planar binding to incorporeal undead.

Complete Divine updated the definition to include incorporeal undead.

[gadren]

A potential player is asking about Shungenja. I'm trying to decide if they need nerfing or not for this campaign, if I don't allow the third party Rokugan stuff I think they'd be just right?

[The Viscount]

Shugenja has access to a few of the high level spells that nobody currently allowed does, but its overall list is not that impressive, so the list just needs some pruning.

[gadren]

Shugenja has access to a few of the high level spells that nobody currently allowed does, but its overall list is not that impressive, so the list just needs some pruning.
What would you prune off?

[The Viscount]

Righteous might is a bit strong, but it might be all right.
Antimagic field has some very disruptive power, especially as a 6th.
Contingency is one of those spells that seems only to exist for optimization or abuse.
Teleport can make travel in a campaign trivial, so look hard at it. Same for Greater Teleport and Teleportation Circle.
True seeing is pretty strong, but it's on for favored soul so I think is all right.
Resurrection is a spell that you may not want in your low magic campaign, depending on how permanent you want death from nasty things to be. Same for True Resurrection, but moreso since you don't need remains.
Spells like Scrying, Legend Lore, and Vision are part of a conversation about divination you have to have with your players. It's potentially powerful, but time consuming and opens up the possibility of people using the same on them.
Spell Immunity has some potential for abuse, but not huge abuse.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction (aka Mage's Disjunction on the srd) is legendarily dangerous and destructive.
The Summon Nature's Ally line is worth mentioning. They can only use the spells to summon Elementals, the plain ones in the srd. They don't have any SLAs and can't do a ton of things, but it still allows them to place several allies on the field (since you can select multiple from the list below). Depending on how you feel about summoning, you can leave them, chop off the higher ones, or just axe them all together. I think it should be all right, though.
Elemental Swarm is also something you should look at. It's not that great, has slow effect, and takes 10 minutes to cast, but it is still summoning a number of brutes to fight for you.
Shambler summons fewer, weaker monsters, but lasts for days, which may make you want to ban it.

EDIT: Quick note, I noticed that you limited healer to 6ths from the apostle of peace list. I think that's a pretty good way to limit the most unbalanced, but lesser planar ally and planar ally are still there as a 4th and a 6th. I'd cut these 2 from the list, but I think the rest is fine.

[gadren]

Righteous might is a bit strong, but it might be all right.
Antimagic field has some very disruptive power, especially as a 6th.
Contingency is one of those spells that seems only to exist for optimization or abuse.
Teleport can make travel in a campaign trivial, so look hard at it. Same for Greater Teleport and Teleportation Circle.
True seeing is pretty strong, but it's on for favored soul so I think is all right.
Resurrection is a spell that you may not want in your low magic campaign, depending on how permanent you want death from nasty things to be. Same for True Resurrection, but moreso since you don't need remains.
Spells like Scrying, Legend Lore, and Vision are part of a conversation about divination you have to have with your players. It's potentially powerful, but time consuming and opens up the possibility of people using the same on them.
Spell Immunity has some potential for abuse, but not huge abuse.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction (aka Mage's Disjunction on the srd) is legendarily dangerous and destructive.
The Summon Nature's Ally line is worth mentioning. They can only use the spells to summon Elementals, the plain ones in the srd. They don't have any SLAs and can't do a ton of things, but it still allows them to place several allies on the field (since you can select multiple from the list below). Depending on how you feel about summoning, you can leave them, chop off the higher ones, or just axe them all together. I think it should be all right, though.
Elemental Swarm is also something you should look at. It's not that great, has slow effect, and takes 10 minutes to cast, but it is still summoning a number of brutes to fight for you.
Shambler summons fewer, weaker monsters, but lasts for days, which may make you want to ban it.

EDIT: Quick note, I noticed that you limited healer to 6ths from the apostle of peace list. I think that's a pretty good way to limit the most unbalanced, but lesser planar ally and planar ally are still there as a 4th and a 6th. I'd cut these 2 from the list, but I think the rest is fine.

I was planning on adding some extra risks to teleporting and resurrections any way.

As for Shugenja, I'm leaning toward just making their access outside of their chosen element more restrictive. They still can't cast from their opposed element, and learn spells from their secondary elements later and can't learn spells above 6th outside of their chosen element.

[The Viscount]

Does this apply to order spells as well? The orders are roughly like domains, so they don't have an element, and they contain many of the strongest spells on this list.

[gadren]

Does this apply to order spells as well? The orders are roughly like domains, so they don't have an element, and they contain many of the strongest spells on this list.

I was thinking of replacing the orders with orders custom to the campaign, or just replacing them with the fire, water, air, and earth cleric domains.

[martixy]

I think you're making it too complicated right from the get-go.
Complex mechanics are all well and good, but they don't mesh well together with PnP games.
So for example, why not just say "Every 4th(or 3rd) level you can improve physical ability scores by 2 or mental scores by 1."
Nice and simple to remember and people don't have to bother with fractions or "Was that thing on this level?" or the like.

Remember to KISS people!

[gadren]

I think you're making it too complicated right from the get-go.
Complex mechanics are all well and good, but they don't mesh well together with PnP games.
So for example, why not just say "Every 4th(or 3rd) level you can improve physical ability scores by 2 or mental scores by 1."
Nice and simple to remember and people don't have to bother with fractions or "Was that thing on this level?" or the like.

Remember to KISS people!

Because then it would stack with enhancement bonuses from magic items and from spells like Bull's Strength and Fox's cunning.
These are the rules for more advanced players, on the website I'm making a guide that breaks these sorts of things down for novices and people who don't like to do math.

[martixy]

"for more advanced players" in no way invalidates my point.

But I did miss the "I don't want these to stack." idea. Easily fixable by 1 word.

[gadren]

"for more advanced players" in no way invalidates my point.

But I did miss the "I don't want these to stack." idea. Easily fixable by 1 word.

No, I get your point, I prefer to keep it simple when I can, but simple doesn't always maintain the desired balance. For example, your example would result in up to +10 or +12 to a physical ability score. Sometimes fractions are needed.

[gadren]

Does this apply to order spells as well? The orders are roughly like domains, so they don't have an element, and they contain many of the strongest spells on this list.
Here is my current write up:
https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/elementalist

I ended up changing a lot more than I originally intended, reducing spellcasting but adding a number of other class features that make it more interesting, but I don't think puts it over tier 3.

[The Viscount]

Looks good; I like the Avatar refluff for it. I'm assuming the change of Earth from acid to other is to keep the fluff. The stuff it gets instead seems competitive enough.
I'm going to ask questions with the optimizer's mind, and discuss all the potential rules repercussions.
I have a few comments on the unarmed strike.

1. I don't play PF so I don't know how monster CMD scales. Do monsters receive random bonuses to keep their CMD high, or is it the type of thing you could defeat a reasonable percentage of the time.

2. Can earth, fire, and water elementalists deal their full damage as nonlethal or lethal? Is earth automaticcally lethal? Can water and fire convert the normal but not the energy damage to nonlethal? It doesn't really matter for balance, but it might matter in a fluff/sense aspect (if you care about sense).

3. Am I right in assuming that air elementalists do not provoke AoOs for trip or bullrush, and that they do not fall on a failed check vs CMD to trip?

One comment on advanced learning: I don't know it there are any infamous PrC lists like trapsmith or demonologist that give spells at greatly reduced levels in PF. If there are, be wary of them.

Elemental Reserve makes mention of "surge" for the air elementalists, but the Wind subdomain only has wind blast. Is there another I'm missing? Also, the wind domain still grants electricity resistance. Do you want to keep this or bring it in line with earth? If you want to replace it with another, maybe a bonus to CMD?

Does intensified elements apply to lesser restoration? What about the cure line? What about flame arrow? These are in order of impact on the game, most to least.

Contingency is still on the list for water shugenja, and while they have a limited list to work with, they can still set up things like "summon elemental whenever combat starts" which could be problematic or set them above the other elements.

Is the automatic Empower applied after or before the extra dice from Intensified? It doesn't really matter (except for the above spells with intensified) but it's something to consider.

All in all, seems to work well with a good focus, I think it's still around 3.

[gadren]

Looks good; I like the Avatar refluff for it. I'm assuming the change of Earth from acid to other is to keep the fluff. The stuff it gets instead seems competitive enough.
I'm going to ask questions with the optimizer's mind, and discuss all the potential rules repercussions.
I have a few comments on the unarmed strike.

1. I don't play PF so I don't know how monster CMD scales. Do monsters receive random bonuses to keep their CMD high, or is it the type of thing you could defeat a reasonable percentage of the time.
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier (bonus for being bigger, penalty for being smaller) + miscellaneous modifiers. So how high it is depends on how "fighty" the target is.


2. Can earth, fire, and water elementalists deal their full damage as nonlethal or lethal? Is earth automaticcally lethal? Can water and fire convert the normal but not the energy damage to nonlethal? It doesn't really matter for balance, but it might matter in a fluff/sense aspect (if you care about sense). I assume this is in regards to elemental strike. I guess I should add that adding the elemental effect damage is optional. I'd like to try and stay consistent with how it works in the rest of the game, and fire and cold damage is always lethal (as far as I know), even when added to a weapon dealing nonlethal damage. Like if you were dealing nonlethal damage with a flaming weapon. The earth enhancement is untyped, so you should be able to deal lethal or nonlethal damage with it like any other weapon.


3. Am I right in assuming that air elementalists do not provoke AoOs for trip or bullrush, and that they do not fall on a failed check vs CMD to trip? Correct.


One comment on advanced learning: I don't know it there are any infamous PrC lists like trapsmith or demonologist that give spells at greatly reduced levels in PF. If there are, be wary of them. I don't think there are any spells with greatly reduced levels that are also have the fire, earth, air, or water types.


Elemental Reserve makes mention of "surge" for the air elementalists, but the Wind subdomain only has wind blast. Is there another I'm missing? Surge is from the Ocean domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/water-domain/oceans), which is a subdomain of Water in Pathfinder.

Also, the wind domain still grants electricity resistance. Do you want to keep this or bring it in line with earth? If you want to replace it with another, maybe a bonus to CMD? Hmm, maybe. Now that I think about it, a defense against ranged weapons might be the most appropriate. (Also, off-topic, but it always boggled my mind in AtLA when they decided the best way to take out the last AIRbender was with a team of archers. Good plan, guys.)


Does intensified elements apply to lesser restoration? What about the cure line? What about flame arrow? These are in order of impact on the game, most to least. Hmm, I had intended for it to apply only to spells that actually had the same descriptor as their favored element (ie, fire, air, water, or earth spells), I guess I should clarify that.


Contingency is still on the list for water shugenja, and while they have a limited list to work with, they can still set up things like "summon elemental whenever combat starts" which could be problematic or set them above the other elements. Contingency is also on my list of spells to hamper in this campaign setting, in general.


Is the automatic Empower applied after or before the extra dice from Intensified? It doesn't really matter (except for the above spells with intensified) but it's something to consider. The standard D&D and PF rule that the player applies things in whatever order is most beneficial still applies.[/quote]


All in all, seems to work well with a good focus, I think it's still around 3. Sweet! :-)

[The Viscount]

I have seen nonlethal cold damage exactly one time, the winter mask from ToM deals nonlethal cold damage. It can theoretically also be produced with the nonlethal spell metamagic feat on a cold spell. Like I said, it doesn't really matter if you want to keep it as lethal, but there is precedent for nonlethal energy damage.