Create Water as an Offensive Spell

[nakedonmyfoldin]

So I know you can't use conjuration spells to create things within other creatures, but surely there's a way to successfully waterboard a creature by using the Create Water spell above a foe's open mouth. At lvl 4, that's 8 gallons of water. A hell of a lot of water to go down your throat.

What mechanics would you use for this? It seems like you'd skip the checks to hold your breath and instantly drop the foe to unconscious, but that's kind of counterproductive if trying to extract info.

[Flickerdart]

The rules for torture are described in BoVD.

In that scenario, create water is no more useful than a well and bucket.

[Jack_Simth]

The rules for torture are described in BoVD.

In that scenario, create water is no more useful than a well and bucket.
Plus, of course, Conjouration spells in general have a clause about creating stuff only on surfaces that can support them (intruduced to get rid of the "Summon Whale above the target's head" stuff), and from the spell in question, we get "Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature."

[Mr Adventurer]

What mechanics would I use?

If the foe is restrained with an open mouth, I would either use the torture rules as outlined above or say "they get wet and it is unpleasant for them". You can still hold your breath or close your throat with an open mouth.

If the foe is not sufficiently restrained, I would say "they get wet". It's trivial to close your mouth or turn your head aside.

If the foe was somehow completely paralysed with an open mouth and throat, I would use the drowning rules - but that's hardly more useful than a normal CdG.

[Ashtagon]

With conjuration spells, you generally can't create the thing in a place that won't support its weight, or inside a creature. However, specific trumps general, and create water notes that you can create it to form a downpour, which presumably means yes, mid-air is possible.

However, it all gets created at once. Which means without special preparation, it won't generally be any more unpleasant than having a bucket full of water splashed in your face.

I suppose if you first tie the victim down, and wrap a cloth over their face, and set up a drip system so that water in a bucket will be slowly fed to the cloth to soak the victim's face, then yes, you can use create water to aid in water-boarding. But with that level of preparation, I'd have to wonder what's stopping you from getting water by conventional means.

[HolyDraconus]

Create water inside a funnel into the victim's mouth. Its not inside a person and the funnel will support it. Plus its kind of hard to close your mouth with a funnel in it.

[Ashtagon]

Create water inside a funnel into the victim's mouth. Its not inside a person and the funnel will support it. Plus its kind of hard to close your mouth with a funnel in it.

Yeah, that'd probably work. The question is, if you have the means to tie someone down with a funnel in their mouth, why can't you get access to conventional water supplies?

[Flickerdart]

Create water inside a funnel into the victim's mouth. Its not inside a person and the funnel will support it. Plus its kind of hard to close your mouth with a funnel in it.
Try this experiment: open a 2L bottle of Coke or whatever (yes, Pepsi is ok), put the tip in your mouth, and tilt your head backwards until the bottle is upright.

Are you drowning? Spoiler: you are not drowning. Until you swallow, no liquid will flow into your throat. When you do swallow, it will flow into your stomach, not your lungs.

[HolyDraconus]

Yeah, that'd probably work. The question is, if you have the means to tie someone down with a funnel in their mouth, why can't you get access to conventional water supplies?Cause Magic?


Try this experiment: open a 2L bottle of Coke or whatever (yes, Pepsi is ok), put the tip in your mouth, and tilt your head backwards until the bottle is upright.

Are you drowning? Spoiler: you are not drowning. Until you swallow, no liquid will flow into your throat. When you do swallow, it will flow into your stomach, not your lungs.Try this experiment: Hold your breath for 1 minute. Then, go drink some water. Are you drowning? Spoiler: attempting this trick for some can cause brain damage.

[Xar Zarath]

Try this experiment: Hold your breath for 1 minute. Then, go drink some water. Are you drowning? Spoiler: attempting this trick for some can cause brain damage.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm very curious as to the brain damage bit

[ben-zayb]

Here's Living Spell's Spell Effect ability:

Spell Effect (Su): A creature hit by a living spell's slam attack is subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself. Saves apply as normal for the spell; the DC is 10 + spell level + Cha modifier.Now, these right here means that the victim is treated as though he is within the effect of Create Water, the effect of which is 2/CL gallons of water. Notice that the Spell Effect doesn't actually create or conjure water, it simply has the victim alone (not the immediate area next to him) be affected by all 2/CL gallons of virtual water around him.

But what if the victim moves? There is neither actual water to move out from, nor water that will fall down due to gravity: the victim is simply, and still, treated as though he is within the water. What's the worst part? The spell is Instantaneous, so there will be no expiration of the victim's state of being within "water".


So there you have it. It's cheesy, and it's pretty contrived, but it's a fun little thought. You know what's another fun little thought? A Living Spell of CL1 Create Water, an ooze that will likely just look like plain water, has a challenge rating of 1. That's right! Just something for your level 1 players to think about next time they want to go near any body of water.:smallwink:


EDIT: Oops, missed that minimum CR limit.

[paranoidbox]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm very curious as to the brain damage bit

Probably because several minutes of having drowned, i.e. not breathing, can cause brain damage.

[Ashtagon]

Here's Living Spell's Spell Effect ability:
Now, these right here means that the victim is treated as though he is within the effect of Create Water, the effect of which is 2/CL gallons of water. Notice that the Spell Effect doesn't actually create or conjure water, it simply has the victim alone (not the immediate area next to him) be affected by all 2/CL gallons of virtual water around him.

But what if the victim moves? There is neither actual water to move out from, nor water that will fall down due to gravity: the victim is simply, and still, treated as though he is within the water. What's the worst part? The spell is Instantaneous, so there will be no expiration of the victim's state of being within "water".


So there you have it. It's cheesy, and it's pretty contrived, but it's a fun little thought. You know what's another fun little thought? A Living Spell of CL1 Create Water, an ooze that will likely just look like plain water, has a challenge rating of 1. That's right! Just something for your level 1 players to think about next time they want to go near any body of water.:smallwink:


EDIT: Oops, missed that minimum CR limit.

The duration of a slam attack (or indeed, any attack) is instantaneous. This slam attack would be no different to being splashed with a big bucket of water (albeit one that also does bludgeoning damage). Even so, note that he is within the spell effect; the spell is not within him, even in this situation. You simply cannot create a spell effect inside a living creature.

Even if the templated living spell used its engulf ability, the target is only subject to the "full normal effects" of the spell, which is somewhere between a thorough drenching and being splashed with a bucket of water.

[ben-zayb]

The duration of a slam attack (or indeed, any attack) is instantaneous. This slam attack would be no different to being splashed with a big bucket of water (albeit one that also does bludgeoning damage). Even so, note that he is within the spell effect; the spell is not within him, even in this situation. You simply cannot create a spell effect inside a living creature.

Even if the templated living spell used its engulf ability, the target is only subject to the "full normal effects" of the spell, which is somewhere between a thorough drenching and being splashed with a bucket of water.

Of course, I didn't say he'll be filled with water from the inside, that'd be silly. However, do you know what happens when a nonaquatic creatures is enveloped in water?

As for your other points, I already explained that in my first post. It's cheesy, for sure.

[Ashtagon]

However, do you know what happens when a nonaquatic creatures is enveloped in water?

Actually, yes, I do. Both in real-world terms, and in terms of the game effect of being splashed with water. But thank you for questioning my level of intelligence and general knowledge.

[FocusWolf413]

Waterboarding involves the nose more than the mouth. You can't close your nose and you can't control what flows into your nose.

[Telonius]

If you've got somebody tied up and helpless, there are a lot worse things you could do with mundane items and a good Intimidate check than you could with Create Water. It's not like you couldn't just run and fetch a few gallons of water to do whatever it is you're planning on doing. What you want to figure out is some way to magically break the person that couldn't be done with just mundane things.

If you're looking for Zero-level spell to help, I'd suggest going all-out Cardassian and use the Light spell. There are five lights.

[Flickerdart]

Try this experiment: Hold your breath for 1 minute. Then, go drink some water. Are you drowning? Spoiler: attempting this trick for some can cause brain damage.
This assumes that I'm both holding my breath and drinking the water, neither of which you can really force the victim to do (unless maybe you rip a nasty fart). Remember, the whole "don't have to swallow without muscular action" thing?

[HolyDraconus]

This assumes that I'm both holding my breath and drinking the water, neither of which you can really force the victim to do (unless maybe you rip a nasty fart). Remember, the whole "don't have to swallow without muscular action" thing?Farts might not work anymore. I heard there is now patches out that make them smell like mint.. seriously.. no I am being serious.


Could you elaborate on this? I'm very curious as to the brain damage bit It was a joke. Generally, given enough time without oxygen, the brain cells start dying.

[FocusWolf413]

f you're looking for zero-level spell to help, i'd suggest going all-out cardassian and use the light spell. there are five lights.

There are four lights!