Best fight so far

[FollowerofBanjo]

What do you guys think the best fight so far has been? Belkar vs. Miko, Belkar vs. Durkin, Durkin vs. Roy, Nale vs. Elan, Thog vs. Roy (arena), V vs. Xykon (soul splice), Tarquin v Julio Scoundrel or any other fight?

[Pyrous]

What do you guys think the best fight so far has been? Belkar vs. Miko, Belkar vs. Durkin, Durkin vs. Roy, Nale vs. Elan, Thog vs. Roy (arena), V vs. Xykon (soul splice), Tarquin v Julio Scoundrel or any other fight?

From your list, Thog vs Roy (arena), at least for now.

I really liked Belkar vs Thieves Guild. I liked not-thog vs OotS too. But both of those were pretty one-sided.

The Ultimate Duel Between Clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) would get my vote, but there's too many special effects for my liking.

If Durkula don't just go into mist form in the current fight, then Durkula vs Roy wins.

[Ranzear]

I gotta put in another vote for Belkar vs. Thieves' Guild.

It's just a perfect mix of "Result of meaningful character development" and "Unrestrained beatdown levied by a proper fighting class."

And one of my favorite snarks -
:belkar: "C'mon, let's keep our threats realistic shall we? I mean, if you said, 'You little twit, I'm going to temporarily inconvenience you!' I'd think, hey, she might really mean it!"

[Gift Jeraff]

My personal favorite is Elan vs Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), followed by Darth V vs Xykon, Xykon vs Dorukan, Elan vs Nale (Azure City), and Durkon vs Malack in that order.

As far as larger scale battles go and not duels, I still prefer the Linear Guild fight in Cliffport.

[nyjastul69]

Oooh! Tough one. I think Roy v. half-ogre with the spiked chain. It always makes me giggle. Sorry to have picked one you didn't list.

[dancrilis]

Got to go with Redcloak (and co.) vs The Resistance

[The gF]

Yeah, 'nother one here for Belkar vs. Thieves et al. It's a crowning moment for Belkar, in which he finally starts to develop (which culminates in his beginning to shift toward Chaotic Neutral, in my estimation. At the present point in the comic, I don't think he's really Evil anymore), and god damn is it just a glorious beatdown. Belkar's a hell of a fighter, possibly the best raw damage dealer on the team (discounting Vaarsuvius-- no physical combat class can hope to compete with Disintegrate or Maximized Fireball), but unlike Roy or Hayley, he rarely gets an opportunity to show off his skills. Belkar is by far the most amusing fighter to read, but in most group combats, Vaarsuvius steals the show, and Belkar gets very few on his own.

This one? Multiple pages of Belkar at his best, and as a bonus, he teaches a man to kill.

[Norrefve]

Personally my favorite would have to be Vaarsuvius vs. Xykon. Not only was it major character growth for V, with the whole soul splice and his mate getting attacked, but it was also a truly intense battle that kept me on edge, and has had major ramifications in the plot line.
This Roy vs. HPoH battle, though, is becoming more and more interesting with every comic Rich writes. I'm looking forward to seeing how it ends.

[brian 333]

If we count it as a continuing series, the combined battles of Haley vs. Crystal would get my vote. If we are not allowed to splice their various battle scenes together, then I suppose I'd have to go with Belkar vs. Hobgoblin Horde.

It is really hard to choose, though. "Pickle Death Attack" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html) vs. "Sexy Shoeless God Of War" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

[Laurana]

I hope I'm not forgetting any.

Count in another one for Belkar (and Haley) vs. Thieves' Guild.
Second comes Vaarsuvius vs. Zz'dtri in Bleedingham, third Elan vs. Nale in Azure City.

[Quild]

I very like the Cliffport fight as a whole thing.

[Dracon1us]

V against X

greatest powers, great tactics, best monologue (Power equals Power, still gives me chills) and the best ending of all : ESCAPE!

[Sky_Schemer]

For a stick figure comic, there have been some amazingly elaborate fight sequences. Even dating back to the early art days.

My all-time favorite is still the Sexy Shoeless God of War (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) moment. The way the camera closes in on Belkar enhances the claustrophobia of this battle sequence, and it's capped by that pullaway at the end. One of Rich's best action moments, IMO. Yeah, it's a one-sided fight, but it oozes character from every panel. And it's an amazing display of what can be done with miminal detail.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The fight against Tarquin's army, no contest. Roy figuring out a way out while bisecting everything in his way. V laying down the pain. Belkar putting his ranger levels to great use. Elan rubbing his uselessness in his father's face. It is just a beautiful fight.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

Likewise. You also get to see the Order working as a team, which is a rarity.

[Sky_Schemer]

The fight against Tarquin's army, no contest. Roy figuring out a way out while bisecting everything in his way. V laying down the pain. Belkar putting his ranger levels to great use. Elan rubbing his uselessness in his father's face. It is just a beautiful fight.

Yeah, I was trying to think of what's my favorite grand sequence, and knew it had to be one of the "Order working as a team" ones. I agree with you that it would need to be this one: they are both thinking and using their skills to get out of it. It's not quite perfect because Durkon is not technically part of it, but otherwise it is all there. And it just keeps going in the face of overwhelming odds.

[Pyrous]

As far as larger scale battles go and not duels, I still prefer the Linear Guild fight in Cliffport.

Then that it depends on how much larger.

OotS vs LG (Bleedingham) is one of my favorites. OotS vs Tarquin's Army is another, specially if we include the fight with Tarquin, Laurin and Miron. The battle that ended Kubota was nice, specially Kazumi vs Ninjas (I can't believe I forgot that one in my other post).

Of course, if we include really large scale battles, The Battle for Azure City wins, no contest.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There are plenty of excellent fight sequences throughout the comic. If I had to pick one, I think I'd go with Durkon vs. Malack.

[StLordeth]

I didn't read responses yet so sorry if I'm adding to a broken record, but my top 3 are

1) Tarquin vs Order (w/out V) the first encounter. I was really waiting to see Tarquin in full blown action mode since his spar with Elan. And it did not disappoint. I'm a huge Tarquin fanboy though, and a fanboy of that whole book in general but man was it awesome seeing him dismantle the Order.
2) Xykon vs Soul Spliced V. Absolutely epic. I was wondering what the hell was going to happen, and Xykons dialogue was some of his best throughout the entire fight (especially the ending monologue when he was about to meteor swarm inside O'chul and V). Beautiful build up and didn't let down. VERY glad Xykon beat her.
3) Belkar vs Thieves Guild. My biggest giddy moment since Miko V Hinjo (I know, I have weird tastes). Belkar was such a boss. I mean seriously, I really hope he makes another comeback like that very soon in the current arc. Belkar at his best.

Special mention to Xykon V Dorukan if we're counting the prequels. I just assumed we weren't so I didn't add it, but that was epic.

Edit: Oh god, I can't believe I forgot Vector Legion vs Order. What the hell. I must be on drugs. That's definitely far and away top of the list for me.

[AceOfFools]

The siege of Azure City would have to be my favorite. It had the best back and forth, shifting goals and situations of any fight sequence.

[Emanick]

I was going to say V's fight with Xykon, followed closely by Roy's final faceoff with Thog, but Grey Wolf reminded me of just how brilliant the Order's final battle against the Vector Legion and its legions was. So that one.

[mikelibrarian]

#1. Belkar vs. Thieves Guild.

#2. Darth Vaarsuvius vs. Xykon

[Wildroses]

Roy vs Thog in the arena because it kept making me laugh. The dialogue in that fight was hysterical. The panel in which Roy is refusing to fight the poor mad innocent public urinator who has clearly suffered terribly, then once he gets over the shock of it being Thog goes tersely "Give me the sword. Then run" is one of my favourite. Then we have the Giant taking a dig at his fan base via Tarquin: It's weird. No matter how many people he kills the audience still thinks he's loveable. Right after Roy finishes his grand speech about being nothing like Thog he BREAKS THOG'S TUSK! And it culminates in Roy proving the use of intelligence and engineering in fighting.

In case it was not obvious I prefer dialogue over spectacle.

[ORione]

I'm going to say the IFCC vs Vaarsuvius's conscience, right before V accepted the soul splice. The phrasing to avoid V noticing the downsides... the exploitation of V's character flaws... saying exactly what will make V do what they want... it's all way more badass and interesting than swinging a weapon or casting a spell. "We won't tell anyone there was another way to save your children if you don't." *shiver*

[Dracon1us]

I'm going to say the IFCC vs Vaarsuvius's conscience, right before V accepted the soul splice. The phrasing to avoid V noticing the downsides... the exploitation of V's character flaws... saying exactly what will make V do what they want... it's all way more badass and interesting than swinging a weapon or casting a spell. "We won't tell anyone there was another way to save your children if you don't." *shiver*

well I still mantain that battle tactics are more fun and challenging, but I see your point and that was a masterful duel.

to me the soul splice arc from "say disintegrate one more time V." to "that's your individual idiot tax" is the standpoint of the Giant work...one of the better "fall" tales ever written in any media

[Bestigle]

I really like The Duel of the Clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html), just cause it makes me laugh every time I read it, yet it still forwards the plot and the character arc of Redcloak. It isn't my favorite, but it comes pretty close. Of the ones you listed, I'll take Roy vs. Thog in the arena. It's a fantastic fight. However, my all time favorite is Elan's entire conflict with his father and their different opinions on how the story should go. The last ten or so strips in that arc where Tarquin is trying to take everything Elan loves to make him the hero is just plain amazing, and the ending makes me smile and frown every single time I read it.

[Deliverance]

OOTS vs Linear Guild in Cliffport gets my vote.

[KorvinStarmast]

Best Fight was the one in the tomb even though V was stuck in a trap.

The Order ambushed the Linear Guild, Haley got that cloud of gunk to spread, and Durkon's Holy Word banished Nale's GF for a day. The fight forced the LG to withdraw, and showed some very good teamwork and some good laughs with all of the fizzled spells and Belkar shouting.

My favorite fight, as it was team versus team with the Order finally using some tactics.

[Laurana]

Best Fight was the one in the tomb even though V was stuck in a trap.

The Order ambushed the Linear Guild, Haley got that cloud of gunk to spread, and Durkon's Holy Word banished Nale's GF for a day. The fight forced the LG to withdraw, and showed some very good teamwork and some good laughs with all of the fizzled spells and Belkar shouting.

My favorite fight, as it was team versus team with the Order finally using some tactics.

You're right, how could I forget that! The Holy Word battle is definitely one of my favourites too, although I still prefer Belkar (and Haley) Vs. Thieves' Guild.

[KorvinStarmast]

You're right, how could I forget that! The Holy Word battle is definitely one of my favourites too, although I still prefer Belkar (and Haley) Vs. Thieves' Guild. That was some fun, yes.

[bguy]

Sapphire Guard Ghost Martyrs vs Team Evil.

[FollowerofBanjo]

Sapphire Guard Ghost Martyrs vs Team Evil.

that was a really awesome fight

[Nightcanon]

Surprised no one has picked out V vs Lauren on the mechane yet (Casterfight!). But yeah, my first thought was Belkar & Haley vs the theives guild. I love Belkar's little summing up in 622: everyone tried so hard to block my path, and all they did was force me to learn how to climb mountains. As far as I can tell it's a Giant original.

(casterfight!)

[Bongos]

Roy vs Durkula! This fight is epic.

[ranagrande]

If we can include things outside the main strip, I really liked the 3.5 OotS vs 4E OotS fight.

[Draconium]

My top three fights:

#3: Roy vs High Priest of Hel. This fight is epic! It might end up higher, but as it's not over yet, I can't justify putting it higher.

#2: OotS vs Vector Legion & Tarquin's Army. I love this entire sequence, from the army surrounding our weary heroes to the final duel between father and son on the Mechane. Not to mention, Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0922.html). :smallbiggrin:

#1: Darth V vs Xykon. My favorite arc contains my favorite fight. Not only does it keep us on edge, but it involves some major character development and gives us some of my personal favorite lines. ("Power is power" speech, anyone?)

[oball]

V vs Kubota

Short and sweet :smalltongue:

[Laurana]

V vs Kubota

Short and sweet :smalltongue:

What's a Kubota?

[Draconium]

What's a Kubota?

Behold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), the fight of a lifetime. :smalltongue:

[LuisDantas]

Hinjo vs Miko was very good.

Durkon vs Malack was very good _and_ tragic. As were Nale vs Malack and not-Durkon vs Nale.

Roy vs Xykon up in the skies was another nice one, of course.

Spliced Vaarsuvius vs Xykon was epic!

I deeply disliked Belkar vs Thieves' Guild, mainly because it was a fight where I sort of had to root for Belkar at his worst. One of the most difficult parts of the history for me. Whatever happened I knew I would dislike it, and I sure did.

Tarquin as not-Thog vs the OOtS was nice, of course.

But I still think the best fight was Xykon vs the Azure City defenders in the throne room. Drama, hope, high stakes, unexpected reversals _and_ plot relevance. That one had it all.

[137beth]

My two favorite are V and O-Chul vs Xykon, and The sequence between Redcloak, Right-Eye, Dorukan, and Xykon.
In both cases, the fight isn't what impressed me, but what happens around it. In the V vs Xykon, I loved seeing how V changed from the beginning to the end, especially in strip 657.

In the fight in the spoiler, it was seeing the fatal decision made by one of the combatants and how it plays out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spliced Vaarsuvius vs Xykon was epic!

I deeply disliked Belkar vs Thieves' Guild, mainly because it was a fight where I sort of had to root for Belkar at his worst.
Huh? :smallconfused:

[Synesthesy]

Redcloak vs Tsukiko.

Short, but meaningfull.

[Seto]

I think my favorite is OotS vs. Tarquin's army + Tarquin, Miron and Laurin. (I count them as one). Although both Durkon vs. Malack and the current Roy vs. Durkula are pretty darn cool.

[Living Oxymoron]

Yeah, 'nother one here for Belkar vs. Thieves et al. It's a crowning moment for Belkar, in which he finally starts to develop (which culminates in his beginning to shift toward Chaotic Neutral, in my estimation. At the present point in the comic, I don't think he's really Evil anymore), and god damn is it just a glorious beatdown.

He is still evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html).

[Living Oxymoron]

And I can't tell which fight is the best, but I really like that one in which the Order fights the Vector Legion. Besides loving Tarquin and his party, I like those moments when the Order demonstrates some "strategic harmony", like what happens in 928 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html). (By the way, I believe that Miron is a Wu Jen and he was lying about that Contigency spell).

[Necris Omega]

... if Roy vs. HPoH ended right here, I'd go with this one. Unfortunately the narrative all but demands that there's yet another turn around to open the window for Belkar to swoop in, which means that, once again, Roy's left to gimmicks and outside forces to save his ass, even when it means as much to him personally as possible.

I want to like Roy, but what he has as a leader and character doesn't follow through to being effective as a fighter.

In the spirit of that, I have to agree with those who said Belkar vs. the Thieves' Guild. This was Belkar at his most Belkariest, kicking so much ass his shoeless feet probably smelt of farts for weeks to come. Dramatic, a major turn over for the character, it had impact, not too long, not too short, it showcased a character playing to his strengths on a higher level, and everyone walked out of that fight looking good.

[Emanick]

He is still evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html).

While I think Belkar is still of Evil alignment, I think he's been acting like a Chaotic Neutral character for some days now. In other words, I think his alignment is Evil because of who he was until very recently, not because of who he is as of strip #1,010.

[GuySmiley1970]

Belkar's alignment notwithstanding, Sexy Shoeless God of War vs. Thieves Guild was still the most satisfying for me.

[Laurana]

Behold (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), the fight of a lifetime. :smalltongue:

Thanks :smallsmile:

I was actually quoting V in the third panel of #596 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html)

One of my favourite moments in the whole comic.

[ChillerInstinct]

I wonder, does Azure City count as a fight? I mean, it was a war, and what a war it was.

If we're talking one character vs. a larger force? Belkar vs. the Thieves' Guild, no question. Now THAT is how you make a comeback.

Two equal-ish forces fighting each other? The Order vs. Tarquin and Co. Really, BRitF had so many fights that were worthy of that title (I was THIS close to putting the fight between The Order and The Linear Guild in the pyramid instead)

And if we're talking duels... Darth V vs. the Black Dragon. One of V's most twisted moments ever? Definitely. Not a good example to set? Obviously. Amazing regardless? You bet.

[LuisDantas]

Huh? :smallconfused:

The little psycho was at the deep end of his psychological profile during that time. Even by his rotten standards, he was rather obnoxious.

Yet I had little choice but to hope that he survived, seeing how the alternative was dire for Haley, Celia and Roy.

It was a very bitter part of the storyline to me, one that could not end fast enough.

[zimmerwald1915]

The little psycho was at the deep end of his psychological profile during that time. Even by his rotten standards, he was rather obnoxious.

Yet I had little choice but to hope that he survived, seeing how the alternative was dire for Haley, Celia and Roy.

It was a very bitter part of the storyline to me, one that could not end fast enough.
Both the Belkar v. Thieves Guild fight and the Vaarsuvius v. Xykon fight occurred when the protagonists were inhabiting "the deep ends of their psychological profiles." But you consider one excellent, and one tolerable at best. Why?

Is it just because Xykon is so much more entertaining than Bozzok?

[LuisDantas]

Both the Belkar v. Thieves Guild fight and the Vaarsuvius v. Xykon fight occurred when the protagonists were inhabiting "the deep ends of their psychological profiles."

True enough. But Vaarsuvius is light years ahead of Belkar by any reasonable measure, even at his worst - which, admitedly, was his situation at that point.

Most significantly of all, Vaarsuvius has a conscience and learned better even during the splice crisis, and even more since.

There is really no fair comparison between the two.



But you consider one excellent, and one tolerable at best. Why?

Is it just because Xykon is so much more entertaining than Bozzok?

No, although there is some of that as well. But the main flaw is Belkar himself. There is no liking him far as I am concerned.

[The gF]

Really? Because Belkar's development SINCE that fight has been all about a merciless killer slowly developing a conscience and the ability to care about things other than himself, even if it is mostly restricted to a cat, a lizard, and a general attachment to the only people who will tolerate him. The old Belkar wouldn't have tried so hard to kill Durkula, after all. After it was made clear he wasn't allowed, he'd give it up. But Belkar wants to take him out in order to protect the rest of the Order, whether he recognizes it as such or not.

Yes, Belkar still identifies as Evil, because he hasn't recognized the changes in himself (and if he did, he would probably resist them). And as we know, self-identification is an important aspect of one's alignment. But his deeds are pushing progressively away from Evil, even when nobody could tie it to him. He's had plenty of opportunities to get away with Evil acts and consciously chose to act in a more Neutral or even Good capacity. Character growth, and it really started with that fight.

[littlebum2002]

I agree.

First of all, V didn't change much from that battle. I mean, sure V learned how to fight better, but there wasn't much character development until the pyramid scene.

However, Belkar's hippie vision quest and subsequent fight were the beginning of one of the most transformative story arcs in the comic so far. I say it wins.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I have to go with a bit of "benefit of the doubt" for still missing about half of it, but Roy VS Durkula looks very promising. The art really works wonders. Outside of that one probably the Battle for Azure city, and if I have to pick a part of it Belkar VS hobbo's.

[FollowerofBanjo]

I really wonder what Rich's favorite fight has been???

[LuisDantas]

Really? Because Belkar's development SINCE that fight has been all about a merciless killer slowly developing a conscience and the ability to care about things other than himself, even if it is mostly restricted to a cat, a lizard, and a general attachment to the only people who will tolerate him.

True enough, and it did succeed beyond any expectations I might have. I find Belkar almost tolerable now.

How that would make his fight against the Guild any less jarring, I have no idea.



I agree.

First of all, V didn't change much from that battle. I mean, sure V learned how to fight better, but there wasn't much character development until the pyramid scene.

However, Belkar's hippie vision quest and subsequent fight were the beginning of one of the most transformative story arcs in the comic so far. I say it wins.

Are you implying that the fight against the Thieves' Guild somehow played a role in making him a better person?

How so? I am just not seeing it. Belkar was utterly obnoxious during and after that fight, after all. It was only a long time after that (when Durkon shamed him into developing a conscience) that he became something better than a raving psycho.


The old Belkar wouldn't have tried so hard to kill Durkula, after all.

Why do you think so?


After it was made clear he wasn't allowed, he'd give it up. But Belkar wants to take him out in order to protect the rest of the Order, whether he recognizes it as such or not.

Yes, Belkar still identifies as Evil, because he hasn't recognized the changes in himself (and if he did, he would probably resist them). And as we know, self-identification is an important aspect of one's alignment. But his deeds are pushing progressively away from Evil, even when nobody could tie it to him. He's had plenty of opportunities to get away with Evil acts and consciously chose to act in a more Neutral or even Good capacity. Character growth, and it really started with that fight.

I guess I am not a very generous person when it comes to alignments. Actual deeds trump intent which trump self-identification every time, IMO.

[Fitzclowningham]

Redcloak vs Tsukiko.

Short, but meaningfull.

You beat me to it. As such, the fight wasn't much, but it resolved a long-running conflict and revealed a great deal about the main villain in the story in the process.

[littlebum2002]

Are you implying that the fight against the Thieves' Guild somehow played a role in making him a better person?

How so? I am just not seeing it.

SO what DID convince him to start becoming a better person? (or at least pretend to?) Wasn't it the hallucination he had of Shojo literally right before that fight?


Belkar was utterly obnoxious during and after that fight, after all. It was only a long time after that (when Durkon shamed him into developing a conscience) that he became something better than a raving psycho.

Obnoxious =/= evil. He did not commit one Evil act during that entire fight. Convincing the Cleric of Loki to kill Eagle Eyed Pete was a strongly Neutral act, killing someone who almost had you killed isn't Evil. And saving Crystal's life and refusing the Cleric's offer of being a bodyguard were both Good acts, because they were done with the right intentions.

I mean, maybe we're looking at different fights here? Because I can't for the life of me understand how you can POSSIBLY look at this fight, where Belkar risks his life to save Haley and Celia, and claim it was the same Belkar who murdered an innocent gnome, tried to kill Elan and assaulted V and Roy.



Why do you think so?




I guess I am not a very generous person when it comes to alignments. Actual deeds trump intent which trump self-identification every time, IMO.

Actual deeds: Unless I'm mistaken, I can't think of any Evil acts Belkar has done since that moment. Some were questionably neutral (having Pete killed, killing the bodyguard), but none were evil per se. Certainly not as evil as things he did without even thinking beforehand, like killing the gnome or the barbarians.

Intent: He attacked Crystal and Bozzock to save Haley. He turned down the Cleric of Loki's offer to instead help Haley and Celia. He could have easily scammed the gnome woman of a magic item and gotten a free lunch out of the deal, but turned down the lunch because it was the wrong thing to do. The Belkar who killed the Oracle probably never even had the phrase "I shouldn't do this because it would be morally wrong" enter his head.

Self-identification: He still identifies as Evil, which we see from the effect of the Protection of Evil clasp.

So in my mind the ONLY way to see Belkar as Evil anymore is to say "regardless of his actions, he still registers as Evil". If you take any sort of actions or intent into account, there's no possible way you can say he still acts Evil, and it all started with the hallucination and thieves guild fight.

[Quild]

Obnoxious =/= evil. He did not commit one Evil act during that entire fight. Convincing the Cleric of Loki to kill Eagle Eyed Pete was a strongly Neutral act, killing someone who almost had you killed isn't Evil. And saving Crystal's life and refusing the Cleric's offer of being a bodyguard were both Good acts, because they were done with the right intentions.

I mean, maybe we're looking at different fights here? Because I can't for the life of me understand how you can POSSIBLY look at this fight, where Belkar risks his life to save Haley and Celia, and claim it was the same Belkar who murdered an innocent gnome, tried to kill Elan and assaulted V and Roy.

I think that Belkar was entirely driven by a selfish motivation: The fun he gets from it.
And he had to help the girls because even if OOTS isn't the representation of a game campaign, "playing the game" as advised in his dream means to stick with the order.
Going on a solo adventure being a bodyguard would be too close of "sit on the couch and eat Cheetos" and would result into being "kicked of the house".
That's also the very reason given for not kill Crystal.
I don't see how encouraging/teaching someone to kill in another circumstance than self-defense is a neutral act.

[Peelee]

First of all, V didn't change much from that battle.
I disagree; V had a massive shift in that battle; namely, the "turn invisible and run away" plan that leaves others twisting in the wind. Leaving the Azure City soldiers clearly did a number on him, but not enough on their own to stop V from trying the same tactic again. His guilt drove him to the edge of change, but stopped just short. It wasn't until Xykon directly opened up that he was going to be upping the stakes on O-Chul that made V stop and turn around. Hearing about O-Chul's fate was the nudge that pushed V over that edge. V may not have saved O-Chul, was still planning on booking it after dropping the potions on him, but V gave him a fighting chance, which is better than he did for the Azure City soldiers by a lot. That was the start of V's redemption, even if he didn't yet realize the full extent of what he would need to atone for.


SO what DID convince him to start becoming a better person? (or at least pretend to?) Wasn't it the hallucination he had of Shojo literally right before that fight?

Also disagree on this. The hallucination convinced Belkar to stop being so obnoxious, I think. Seeing Enor and Gannji forced to fight each other in the arena is what spurred him to start becoming a better person. The guard likening the fight to someone being forced to kill their own pet, the inward reflection that others might feel the way Belkar felt, is what spurred his change.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but that's how I read into the changes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actual deeds: Unless I'm mistaken, I can't think of any Evil acts Belkar has done since that moment.

Three words for you: kobold litter box.

[Psyren]

Mine was OotS vs. Vector Legion. Just everything about it - the dinosaur battle, V's intelligence (in both senses of the word), "Xykon is feeling chilly", the big damn heroes rescue by Julio, "GIVE ME MY STAFF!", "casterfightcasterfight!", all the way to "Hey Tarquin! Catch" and "You'll live." Every page was a nailbiter and every beat was perfect.

[littlebum2002]

I think that Belkar was entirely driven by a selfish motivation: The fun he gets from it.
And he had to help the girls because even if OOTS isn't the representation of a game campaign, "playing the game" as advised in his dream means to stick with the order.
Going on a solo adventure being a bodyguard would be too close of "sit on the couch and eat Cheetos" and would result into being "kicked of the house".
That's also the very reason given for not kill Crystal.
I don't see how encouraging/teaching someone to kill in another circumstance than self-defense is a neutral act.

I mean, after the hallucination he was acting MUCH less Evil than before, and yes he was doing it for selfish reasons, but in the big picture that IS where he started his character change. It's like he said:

:belkar: People don’t just change who they are in an instant. It doesn’t work like that. It takes time, so you don’t even know you’re changing. Until one day, you’re just a bit different than you used to be and you can’t even tell what the hell happened.

He tried changing his actions to save his own skin, and before he knew it, he realized he's actually a different person and doesn't exactly know why. Sure the hallucination wasn't the actual moment when Belkar started his real change, but it's certainly the seed that started the whole thing.

Also, I consider revenge to be a Neutral act, not an Evil one. Not sure if that's correct tho. I mean, wanting to kill someone who tried to have you killed is a perfectly normal feeling to have, it seems like only a Good character would have to overcome that desire.



I disagree; V had a massive shift in that battle; namely, the "turn invisible and run away" plan that leaves others twisting in the wind. Leaving the Azure City soldiers clearly did a number on him, but not enough on their own to stop V from trying the same tactic again. His guilt drove him to the edge of change, but stopped just short. It wasn't until Xykon directly opened up that he was going to be upping the stakes on O-Chul that made V stop and turn around. Hearing about O-Chul's fate was the nudge that pushed V over that edge. V may not have saved O-Chul, was still planning on booking it after dropping the potions on him, but V gave him a fighting chance, which is better than he did for the Azure City soldiers by a lot. That was the start of V's redemption, even if he didn't yet realize the full extent of what he would need to atone for.

I totally never noticed the correlation between the two invisible moments before. Good catch



Also disagree on this. The hallucination convinced Belkar to stop being so obnoxious, I think. Seeing Enor and Gannji forced to fight each other in the arena is what spurred him to start becoming a better person. The guard likening the fight to someone being forced to kill their own pet, the inward reflection that others might feel the way Belkar felt, is what spurred his change.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but that's how I read into the changes.

I agree that the fight in the arena was the first time Belkar committed an entirely selfless act for the right reasons, but I don't think he would have even considered it if it weren't for the slow burn of "fake sincerity" he's had for so long. I think that was just the straw that broke the camels back.

[zimmerwald1915]

That was the start of V's redemption, even if he didn't yet realize the full extent of what he would need to atone for.
I'm AFB, but in the Blood Runs in the Family commentary, the Giant places the "start" significantly later.

[Ramien]

Also, I consider revenge to be a Neutral act, not an Evil one. Not sure if that's correct tho. I mean, wanting to kill someone who tried to have you killed is a perfectly normal feeling to have, it seems like only a Good character would have to overcome that desire.

Revenge is generally considered to be somewhere between Neutral and Evil, depending on the nature of the revenge. Killing a helpless opponent (Pete was helpless at the time Belkar encouraged the Priest of Loki) is always Evil, particularly when the motivation behind the killing is just revenge. It's a perfectly normal feeling to have, but people aren't all good or evil - just because it is normal doesn't mean that it's not evil to follow through on.

If you do want a Neutral form of revenge, by the way, look at Elan punching Kubota. Does no lasting harm, but is still done purely to 'even the scales'.

[Peelee]

I'm AFB, but in the Blood Runs in the Family commentary, the Giant places the "start" significantly later.

Psh. When has an author ever known what he's talking about?

For reals, though, that may have been his intention, but I think I can make a decent case for the O-Chul help being the start, even if not consciously done by author. The Giant tends to be much better at both debate and deconstructing literary meaning than I, so I'm pretty sure he'd slap me down if he came in to argue the point with me, but still.

[Raimun]

I really liked the halberdier-dude VS. the hobgoblin.

You all know what I'm talking about.

[Emanick]

I'm AFB, but in the Blood Runs in the Family commentary, the Giant places the "start" significantly later.

Sorry, what does "AFB" mean? I haven't come across that particular acronym before, and a quick Google search doesn't help me, either.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sorry, what does "AFB" mean? I haven't come across that particular acronym before, and a quick Google search doesn't help me, either.

Away From Book, I believe.

[StLordeth]

Psh. When has an author ever known what he's talking about?

For reals, though, that may have been his intention, but I think I can make a decent case for the O-Chul help being the start, even if not consciously done by author. The Giant tends to be much better at both debate and deconstructing literary meaning than I, so I'm pretty sure he'd slap me down if he came in to argue the point with me, but still.

I've never thought twice about V giving potions to O'Chul, because I figured she did it due to her simply needing the help of a high level Paladin if push came to shove (which it did, and she did) but you may be on to something there. The question is what was her intended plan before Xykon grabbed her and after she gave the potions to O'Chul.

[Thewdragon]

I would have to put my vote in for The Order vs the linear guild in cliff port, if team fights are allowed. The sonic damage joke was great, the window smashing was.... "Smashing," and the whole moment where nale swapped with Elam in the room, all of it was pretty much my favorite moments.

[LuisDantas]

SO what DID convince him to start becoming a better person? (or at least pretend to?)

Belkar did his best to pretend, and failed badly at it. But it seems to have opened the door for at least understanding what real change would be, which finally happened when he witnessed Durkon sacrificing himself on his stead.



Wasn't it the hallucination he had of Shojo literally right before that fight?

Not by my reading, although I suppose that was the original intent, much as Miko was originally supposed to be Lawful Good. There is no other reason for the whole comic with Belkar imagining Shojo in his delirium.

It is too bad that we had to suffer from hypocritical, just-as-evil-as-ever Belkar for a considerable meantime.



Obnoxious =/= evil. He did not commit one Evil act during that entire fight. Convincing the Cleric of Loki to kill Eagle Eyed Pete was a strongly Neutral act, killing someone who almost had you killed isn't Evil. And saving Crystal's life and refusing the Cleric's offer of being a bodyguard were both Good acts, because they were done with the right intentions.

I want nothing to do with your understanding of "Neutral" morality, let it be made very clear.



I mean, maybe we're looking at different fights here? Because I can't for the life of me understand how you can POSSIBLY look at this fight, where Belkar risks his life to save Haley and Celia, and claim it was the same Belkar who murdered an innocent gnome, tried to kill Elan and assaulted V and Roy.

In some senses it is a worse one. For all his faults, the previous Belkar was very upfront about who he was. He was no hypocrite.


(...)

Actual deeds: Unless I'm mistaken, I can't think of any Evil acts Belkar has done since that moment. Some were questionably neutral (having Pete killed, killing the bodyguard), but none were evil per se. Certainly not as evil as things he did without even thinking beforehand, like killing the gnome or the barbarians.

Ex-cu-se meee? That Belkar was a monstruous sadist, and remained so for a long time. Take a look at #612 again. And at #685. That guy is just as violent as regular Belkar, but manages to be a lot less honest about it.

Had he not lucked to witness Durkon's fight against Malak, odds are that we would become an all-out villain out of sheer self-delusion.



Intent: He attacked Crystal and Bozzock to save Haley. He turned down the Cleric of Loki's offer to instead help Haley and Celia. He could have easily scammed the gnome woman of a magic item and gotten a free lunch out of the deal, but turned down the lunch because it was the wrong thing to do. The Belkar who killed the Oracle probably never even had the phrase "I shouldn't do this because it would be morally wrong" enter his head.

Personally, I found the gnome enchanter strip a bit difficult to parse. It came out of nowhere. In retrospect it is probably meant to be interpreted as you say, but it happens at the expense of internal plot coherence.


Self-identification: He still identifies as Evil, which we see from the effect of the Protection of Evil clasp.

That is the item calling him evil, not Belkar himself, though. Although it does happen in an odd moment, for sure.



So in my mind the ONLY way to see Belkar as Evil anymore is to say "regardless of his actions, he still registers as Evil". If you take any sort of actions or intent into account, there's no possible way you can say he still acts Evil, and it all started with the hallucination and thieves guild fight.


Sorry, I still just don't see it, at all.

[Ted The Bug]

Belkar and the Guild. Character development and so much FUN.

[Talion]

For one on one, I'd have to say Belkar vs Miko. Not because it's the flashiest, or the coolest, or even the most relevant to the story. But because they BOTH wanted to fight each other to the bitter end, hold nothing back, winner take all. For a few fleeting moments, they were fully absorbed in that fight. Nothing else in the world mattered to them. That pure, unadulterated focus on the battle is what drives it home for me.

For anything more than 1 v 1...I'm not sure. I'd have to think about it.

[Pyrous]

For one on one, I'd have to say Belkar vs Miko. Not because it's the flashiest, or the coolest, or even the most relevant to the story. But because they BOTH wanted to fight each other to the bitter end, hold nothing back, winner take all. For a few fleeting moments, they were fully absorbed in that fight. Nothing else in the world mattered to them. That pure, unadulterated focus on the battle is what drives it home for me.

For anything more than 1 v 1...I'm not sure. I'd have to think about it.

Belkar had the chance to kill Miko in that fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html). He was trying to make her fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html). Which just make it more awesome.

[Talion]

Belkar had the chance to kill Miko in that fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html). He was trying to make her fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html). Which just make it more awesome.

Agreed. Because 'winning' doesn't have to mean 'killing'. Which is an amusing sentiment in respect to the resident sexy, shoeless god of war.

[Sir_Dr_D]

You are all missing the best fight of all.

Mr Scruffy vs that The Kobolds Wolf, outside of the arena.

[StLordeth]

Belkar had the chance to kill Miko in that fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html). He was trying to make her fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html). Which just make it more awesome. Yeah I agree. Belkar totally smashed in that fight, it really shows how competent he can be when he puts his mind to something and actually enjoys doing it. The whole prison break sequence was great.

[Silferdrake]

Personally I'm a big fan of whenever Xykon gets serious and throws down some heavy punches. I like how he goes from a somewhat silly and comic villain to a really scary threat. My favourite is probably the ending of Start of Darkness, but the fight against V is also very cool.

[TCRM]

The entire Vector Legion vs. Oots fight. From the battle in the sand pit to the Dinosaur fight, to the Julio rescue, to Tarquins entrance to the Mechane, right down to the caster fight and Tarquins meta rage at the end.

Seriously my favorite line in the entire comic is in that fight.

"A bidet Miron. It's called a bidet."

Followed by:

"BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THESE THINGS ARE DONE!"

[Macros]

As far as duels go, my vote would be to Roy vs Thog in the arena. Real close battle, with a lot of tense moments, and still funny as heck.

On a grander scale of things, the whole of Azure City's siege. Which incidently is when I discovered the webcomic, so it was all the more suspenceful.

[grandpheonix]

How did we forget belkar raging vs all the hobbos?

[Bedinsis]

Vaarsuvius & O-chul vs. Xykon.

The fact that we reached a point were all abilities Vaarsuvius had left was low-level, and these abilities were well-established within the comic made it for me. That together with that she in doing so actually took Xykon's advice to heart and used it against him made it even better. That she actually turned around to help O-chul when the most tactical option was to flee was also a good one.

I'm not getting the love a lot seems to have for the Belkar vs. Thieves' guild fight. Given that it all started off from the advice "pretend that you care" made all actions Belkar performed feel disingenuous.

One thing I will say though which I only now got is:

Consider this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) and this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html). Both contains Belkar being offered a post outside the Order. He intended to do it the first time, but sadism got the better of him. The second time he decided against it for other reasons.

The former strip also had Tsukiko conducting a job interview in the middle of a battle, the same way she got hired(which is unrelated to this thread, I just feel like I'm on a roll right now).

[JessmanCA]

Mr. Scruffy vs. new Vampire guy

Or Xykon vs. an army of Paladins/ghosts

[Seward]

I have a hard time choosing a "best fight" for somebody when they lose or need to be bailed out by something like a Flumph, or when their whole plans are spoiled at the end or based on a false assumption (as in Belkar vs Miko)

Protagonists:
Roy: Roy vs Miko ("Treasure Type O" - I'm old school, and I'm with Belkar on that one)
Durkon: Durkon vs Leaky Windstaff. Complete with lectures about deportment for Julia.
Haley: Haley vs Crystal. Because she really is more dangerous when she talks to you.
Elan: Elan vs Nale in Azure City. In proper Dashing Swordsman style.
Varsuvius: Casterfight. Because V's duel with Lauren started with a resource war much earlier.
Belkar: vs unnamed hobgoblins. Realistic depiction of D&D with a high level melee in war.

Allies:
Hinjo: vs giant devil, strictly because he's the only OOTS character on any side that actually keeps the proper "golfbag of weapons" to defeat DR vs his preferred foe.
Celia: Vs thieves Guild, ending the fight with her lawyer skills
Kazume: vs assassins while pregnant. "I can just make MORE in my TUMMY"
Bandanna: vs Tarquin, using Mechane as a weapon

Antagonists:
Xykon: vs Darth V. Lecture on power and all.
Redcloak: Tsuiko's end. That was cold, effortless and awesome.
Thing In Darkness: vs Miko. "Lets have a contest to see who hits least hard".

B-Listers
Black Dragon: vs V first time. "and I am still a dragon"
Nale: Malak's end. He really was dangerous, even if an idiot
Thog: vs Earth Faerie. "Thog Alone"
Tarquin: First fight vs Order. "Nope!" mask under the mask.
Therkla: Fight "with" Elan. "we're flanking together!"

Team Fights:
Haley & Belkar vs Thieves Guild
OOTS vs Linear Guild, the Ambush in the Pyramid corridor
Redcloak, minion skeletal undead and hobgoblin army vs Azure City
Miko & reluctant OOTS vs Ogres

[OmnivorousOgre]

Most of my favorites have been mentioned multiple times already, so I'll opt for some unmentioned ones. I really like O-Chul vs. Acid Shark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html) and O-Chul vs. Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html), short as they may have been. Then again, I like pretty much every page that involves him.

[facw]

Late to the party, but give me Miko vs. Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)

[Goblin_Priest]

From your list, Thog vs Roy (arena), at least for now.

I really liked Belkar vs Thieves Guild. I liked not-thog vs OotS too. But both of those were pretty one-sided.

The Ultimate Duel Between Clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) would get my vote, but there's too many special effects for my liking.

If Durkula don't just go into mist form in the current fight, then Durkula vs Roy wins.

Sweet, forgot about that one. My favorite.

[Psyren]

What's amusing is that he really did have an ultimate duel between clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) later on.

[StLordeth]

What makes that fight even more sad is that the High Priest of the Twelve actually rolled high enough to resist.

[Haar]

Hmm, tough to say my favorite. I really liked the original OotS Vs. LG in the first dungeon, but I also really liked the OotS Vs. Tarquin, Laurin, and Miron. As far as duels go I'd have to say Haley Vs. Tsukiko, mostly because it was funny seeing Murphy's Law applied to Haley.

[LordFluffy]

Spliced V. vs. Mama Black Dragon

That made me sit back and go, "Holy... crap...".

I'm liking Roy vs. Durkula very much, though.

[PoeticDwarf]

When belkar was charmed and he was trying to kill durkon, it wasnt a fight but I think it was really funny.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What makes that fight even more sad is that the High Priest of the Twelve actually rolled high enough to resist.

We don't know that. All we (and he) know is that a 21 didn't save. It doesn't follow that 22 does save. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

[Aeliren]

Haley and Belkar vs. the Greysky City Thieves' Guild are one of my favourites. So awesome. The beginning of Belkar's character development takes place, and as soon as he regains consciousness he tears his way through most of the guild members there.

Also, I made some digging: A minimum of 32 members of the Thieves' Guild were present during the ambush. A minimum of 25 were killed on-screen/mentioned to be dead (ex: the Munez twins and George), Crystal and Bozzok were incapacitated by Belkar and Haley respectively and Jenny was seduced by Belkar. Credit is also due to the Cleric of Loki, who cured Belkar and healed him until they reached the door and killed Pete, and also to Celia who, even as a non-combatant, distracted the guild, made the mists Haley needed for her early sneak attacks appear and whisked her to safety right before she could be killed.