Order of the Olympian Avatars

[foobar1969]

Various people (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?453778-OOTS-1010-The-Discussion-Thread&p=20008140&viewfull=1#post20008140) have speculated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?453939-Roy-Champion-of-Thor&p=20009173&viewfull=1#post20009173) that the Order of the Stick could be avatars/descendants of the Olympian Pantheon. I haven't seen a dedicated thread for that topic, so here it is.

The Eastern Gods have a green glow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html).

Members seen in Crayon of Time: Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Demeter, Pan.

My guess at matchups:



Roy: Zeus (leader) or Athena (wisdom & strategy)
Durkon: none (he's Northern) or Hades (underworld)
Elan: Apollo (music) or Aphrodite (love)
Haley: Artemis (hunt) or Hermes (trickster)
Vaarsuvius: Hecate (magic)
Belkar: Ares (war)

[Aasimar]

That's certainly a fun idea.

Who knows, maybe?

[factotum]

Gonna try not to go into a rant about this, but I don't like this idea at all. I really, really hate it when the heroes of a story turn out to be pre-destined to be the heroes because of some sort of genetic or spiritual quirk. I'd much rather the heroes are people who are forced into the position of being heroes by circumstance, and that pretty much anyone could have ended up in the same position.

[Draconi Redfir]

I... don't really see how this is even remotely possible at all?:smallconfused: The wolrd the order exists on now was made well after the death of the Greek gods, and the very first world was consumed entirely, no survivors (at least that's how i interpreted it.)

The timeline i'm aware of is;

North, South, East, & West gods -> snarl -> Earth 1 -> Eastern gods killed -> Earth 1 consumed -> NS&W gods, -> Earth 2, -Snarl contained.

The gods were already dead/unmade when the world was created, so how there could be any connection i don't get. i suppose they could possibly be "alive" in the world in the rifts? but we know for a fact that the snarl is still in there somewhere, and there was i beleive a mention of a lack of fish or birds in the ocean scene in the desert, so i don't think there is life on it. so i kind of doubt the gods still exist in some form in there.

[Bulldog Psion]

Does this include Z'ztdri, then, too? :smallbiggrin: His magic had a green glow.

Seriously, about the utmost I can see is that the Greenhilt sword might have been forged by Hephaestos. And that's a long shot. Other than that, I doubt the Order are descendants or avatars of the Gods of the East.

[littlebum2002]

I really, really hate it when the heroes of a story turn out to be pre-destined to be the heroes because of some sort of genetic or spiritual quirk.

Yeah, like, say, when the main hero of a story is a hero just because his father made a Blood Oath of Vengeance and therefore, because of his genetic ties, he's forced to fulfill that oath.




I... don't really see how this is even remotely possible at all?:smallconfused: The wolrd the order exists on now was made well after the death of the Greek gods, and the very first world was consumed entirely, no survivors (at least that's how i interpreted it.)

The timeline i'm aware of is;

North, South, East, & West gods -> snarl -> Earth 1 -> Eastern gods killed -> Earth 1 consumed -> NS&W gods, -> Earth 2, -Snarl contained.

The gods were already dead/unmade when the world was created, so how there could be any connection i don't get. i suppose they could possibly be "alive" in the world in the rifts? but we know for a fact that the snarl is still in there somewhere, and there was i beleive a mention of a lack of fish or birds in the ocean scene in the desert, so i don't think there is life on it. so i kind of doubt the gods still exist in some form in there.

I don't actually agree with this, but the argument supporters of ideas like this usually make is that everything we know about the history of the snarl is hearsay, and it could very well be that Shojo was misled and we haven't heard the whole truth yet. (That last part is at least partly correct, since we know there's an unexplained world in there)

[Bulldog Psion]

Yeah, like, say, when the main hero of a story is a hero just because his father made a Blood Oath of Vengeance and therefore, because of his genetic ties, he's forced to fulfill that oath.

Well, if you mean "genetic ties" in the sense of "the postmaster in town here is a hunter, and his sons both hunt, too" -- that is, by family tradition and upbringing, rather than DNA programming -- then I'll agree with you.

But IMO, there's no evidence he's "forced" to fulfill that oath. In the first place, he told his dad that he could "shove the oath up his wrinkled incorporeal ass" except for the fact that someone has to stop Xykon and he's already kind of in a position to attempt it. In the second place, probably more importantly, the Higher Powers appear to think the Blood Oath of Vengeance has exactly zero effect on Roy, since he was able to get into paradise.

So, my opinion is that he isn't forced at all. He's following the course by free will -- underlined repeatedly -- and the main impact of his dad's actions is that Roy knows about the whole thing, which most people don't.

[Draconi Redfir]

I don't actually agree with this, but the argument supporters of ideas like this usually make is that everything we know about the history of the snarl is hearsay, and it could very well be that Shojo was misled and we haven't heard the whole truth yet. (That last part is at least partly correct, since we know there's an unexplained world in there)

Well that makes sense. "Yeah every single peice of information we were given about this plot-central creature? Yeah that's all lies. It's the only information we have ever been given on the topic but clearly it's a lie right?":smallannoyed:

I'd be more inclined to accept that possibility if there were even the SLIGHTEST inkling of it not being the case. As it stands the story Sojo told is the only story ANYBODY has told about the Snarl, so it's impossible to have any basis for any kind of other theory. Yes, there is a planet in the rifts, but for me at least that doesn't justify completely throwing away the only information we have on this thing, the psion chick herself said she sensed no life of any form in the ocean she saw. As far as that tells me it just means there's a dead world in there with maybe some plants at best, no hints of gods, people, or anything to suggest that anything sojo said was wrong.

[littlebum2002]

"Yeah every single peice of information we were given about this plot-central creature? Yeah that's all lies. It's the only information we have ever been given on the topic but clearly it's a lie right?"

You have just given an incredibly accurate description of the entire plot of The Usual Suspects

The trope of "everything you think you know about the story is false" has been around for literally DECADES (if not longer). I don't know why you would be surprised if Rich used it as well.

[Rift_Wolf]

In answer to op: Interesting, but probably not right. I'm in the camp which hates predestination over free will and happenstance. The Order weren't predestined for greatness; they had greatness thrust upon them.
As for the questions over the truth about the Snarl; the only sources we have to go on are shojo and parts of SoD. I don't think we've got the *full* truth about the scribbles or snarl. My thoughts on the planet within the gates was 'well the Snarl was made of bits of tangled universe; why wouldn't it look like bits of random scenery to a human?

[factotum]

Yeah, like, say, when the main hero of a story is a hero just because his father made a Blood Oath of Vengeance and therefore, because of his genetic ties, he's forced to fulfill that oath.

As Bulldog Psion says, Roy was never forced to fulfil the oath, and in fact, when he was originally given the task by his father, he made it quite clear he was going to do it because it was *the right thing to do*, not because of the Oath; furthermore, the Blood Oath only came about because Xykon killed Eugene's mentor. If it had been some other wizard he'd killed then it would be a different person chasing him down now--there's nothing particularly special about Roy or his family.

[littlebum2002]

Well, if you mean "genetic ties" in the sense of "the postmaster in town here is a hunter, and his sons both hunt, too" -- that is, by family tradition and upbringing, rather than DNA programming -- then I'll agree with you.

But IMO, there's no evidence he's "forced" to fulfill that oath. In the first place, he told his dad that he could "shove the oath up his wrinkled incorporeal ass" except for the fact that someone has to stop Xykon and he's already kind of in a position to attempt it. In the second place, probably more importantly, the Higher Powers appear to think the Blood Oath of Vengeance has exactly zero effect on Roy, since he was able to get into paradise.

So, my opinion is that he isn't forced at all. He's following the course by free will -- underlined repeatedly -- and the main impact of his dad's actions is that Roy knows about the whole thing, which most people don't.


As Bulldog Psion says, Roy was never forced to fulfil the oath, and in fact, when he was originally given the task by his father, he made it quite clear he was going to do it because it was *the right thing to do*, not because of the Oath; furthermore, the Blood Oath only came about because Xykon killed Eugene's mentor. If it had been some other wizard he'd killed then it would be a different person chasing him down now--there's nothing particularly special about Roy or his family.

No, I totally agree that now Roy is in it for the "right reasons" but at first the whole "avenge me" thing seemed like a bit of a cop out. But considering what the point of the comic was at that time, it's very understandable.

[Draconi Redfir]

You have just given an incredibly accurate description of the entire plot of The Usual Suspects

The trope of "everything you think you know about the story is false" has been around for literally DECADES (if not longer). I don't know why you would be surprised if Rich used it as well.

because as it is now, it would have come out of nowhere. if you're going to have a twist come from something, it should always be forshadowed. the entire known story about the snarl being a lie? that has not been forshadowed (as of yet.) there is the world inside the rifts yes, but i don't personally beleive that would accurately count, at least not for the ENTIRE story being a lie. The snarl deciding to try it's hand at creation after being sealed away? Sure! The snarl having never killed any gods or torn apart any souls? I doubt it.

[zimmerwald1915]

because as it is now, it would have come out of nowhere. if you're going to have a twist come from something, it should always be forshadowed. the entire known story about the snarl being a lie? that has not been forshadowed (as of yet.)
It hasn't? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

[littlebum2002]

because as it is now, it would have come out of nowhere. if you're going to have a twist come from something, it should always be forshadowed. the entire known story about the snarl being a lie? that has not been forshadowed (as of yet.) there is the world inside the rifts yes, but i don't personally beleive that would accurately count, at least not for the ENTIRE story being a lie. The snarl deciding to try it's hand at creation after being sealed away? Sure! The snarl having never killed any gods or torn apart any souls? I doubt it.

1) the movie I mentioned, The Usual Suspects, had a plot twist that was not foreshadowed in any way, and yet it managed to win an Oscar for screenwriting. Interesting.

2) as is mentioned in the above post, V (and in another strip, Belkar) have BOTH mentioned that "maybe the snarl isn't what we think it is" (that's paraphrasing). I don't know how YOU define foreshadowing, but in my world, someone saying "hey, that might not be right" is DEFINITELY foreshadowing that it may, in fact, not be right

(I mean, seriously, how can you have MORE foreshadowing that what you know about the snarl may be wrong than a character literally telling you that what you know about the snarl may be wrong??)

(Oh, except when you have two characters literally telling you that what you know about the snarl may be wrong)

[Draconi Redfir]

I don't know. What do you call this then? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) Because it sure looks like a snarl to me.

I'm not saying the planet inside the rifts doesn't exist, i have never said that. I'm saying that the only things we know about it are that

A. It has water.
B. It has green landmass that MIGHT indicate plants, or just green stone.
C. A powerful psion could dectect no signs of life inside an ocean, wich should be teaming with life.
D. There is clear signs that there is something resembling what we know as the snarl inside that thing.

No signs of life, no signs of gods, no signs of anying. Like Rift_wolf said, maybe the snarl just looks like a planet to untrained human eyes? Who knows. There's still no reason the suspect everything sojo told us was a lie.

[factotum]

There's still no reason the suspect everything sojo told us was a lie.

Well, there's *one* possible reason to suspect that. We know that the Gods are really, really unwilling to let information about what happened back in the beginning times out, to the extent that even the IFCC didn't know about the Snarl until Sabine told them about it. So, simply put, where did Shojo get his information from? There were no present-day mortals alive at the time most of his story takes place.

Now, I don't believe *everything* Shojo said is untrue. There's definitely some sort of Snarl-like entity inside those rifts, as the desert scene clearly proves. However, we don't know that the story of the origin of this entity that Shojo told is the unvarnished truth.

[littlebum2002]

There's still no reason the suspect everything sojo told us was a lie.

And yet I could quote you a dozen stories in every type of media that gave you no reason to suspect everything you thought you knew was wrong, up until the moment you found out that everything you thought you knew was wrong.

There may good be reasons to believe Shojo, but "I don't think a comic strip which is well known for employing tropes is going to employ one of the most recognized tropes in existence" isn't one.

And I don't think Shojo is lying, but who gave him this information (indirectly)? The very beings who have declared that they won't give anyone this information. There's something up, there.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well, there's *one* possible reason to suspect that. We know that the Gods are really, really unwilling to let information about what happened back in the beginning times out, to the extent that even the IFCC didn't know about the Snarl until Sabine told them about it. So, simply put, where did Shojo get his information from? There were no present-day mortals alive at the time most of his story takes place.

Now, I don't believe *everything* Shojo said is untrue. There's definitely some sort of Snarl-like entity inside those rifts, as the desert scene clearly proves. However, we don't know that the story of the origin of this entity that Shojo told is the unvarnished truth.

Well we haven't been given any kind of alternative story to the whole thing have we? if redcloak comes along and says the creature in the rifts is actually a god-level Tarrasque then we'd have reason to start doubting Sojo's story, but as it is Sojo's story is the ONLY information we have to go on.


And I don't think Shojo is lying, but who gave him this information (indirectly)? The very beings who have declared that they won't give anyone this information. There's something up, there.

Soon and his party were working to seal the rifts weren't they? The gods are obviously afraid of the thing, and it's possible that with there being so many of them, at least one decided to send an envoy of some kind to let the party know what they were dealing with. The party was going on a huge quest to do something the gods probably wanted to do themselves but couldn't for one reason or another, so they probably figured helping them out however they could be a good idea.

OR as an alternative: Remember Redcloak?

Start of Darkness, he explains how the dark one ascended to godhood and learned of the snarl's existence via some friendly evil gods. Sometime between this and his creation of the crimson mantle, the order of the scribble started sealing the gates, and the dark one provided knowledge of the snarl and the spell needed to (supposedly) control it by using the gates Soon and co were making. The sapphire guard obviously knew about the crimson mantle well before Redcloak wore it, to the point where they'd hunt it down to try and stop whoever was wearing it at the time. SO! By that logic i'd say that sometime between sealing the first gate and hunting down Redcloak's village, the order of the scribble and/or the sapphire guard encountered a bearer of the crimson mantle, perhaps one who was following them to grab a gate after they made it and left. They capture him, interrogate him, and either he escapes, they don't realize the cloak was the source of this knowledge, or they hide it away and it just happens to be found again later on. And now they have the story of the snarl, not from any of their own gods, but from the dark one.

I’m not saying this is what happened, I’m saying it could be one possible explanation. I’d put my money on "at least one god decided to help out the party who were directly helping them (the gods) and tell them what they ought to know." personally.

[ZhanStrider]

In answer to op: Interesting, but probably not right. I'm in the camp which hates predestination over free will and happenstance. The Order weren't predestined for greatness; they had greatness thrust upon them.
As for the questions over the truth about the Snarl; the only sources we have to go on are shojo and parts of SoD. I don't think we've got the *full* truth about the scribbles or snarl. My thoughts on the planet within the gates was 'well the Snarl was made of bits of tangled universe; why wouldn't it look like bits of random scenery to a human?

This ignores the possibility that the Greek Pantheon is not dead and that they have bestowed boons on the party post-becoming Heros. Not that I think that is likely, just a thought

[Vinyadan]

Maybe there will be an Exalted version of OotS with this idea in it. Like how I think there was a 4th ed. comic.

[littlebum2002]

Well we haven't been given any kind of alternative story to the whole thing have we? if redcloak comes along and says the creature in the rifts is actually a god-level Tarrasque then we'd have reason to start doubting Sojo's story, but as it is Sojo's story is the ONLY information we have to go on.



Soon and his party were working to seal the rifts weren't they? The gods are obviously afraid of the thing, and it's possible that with there being so many of them, at least one decided to send an envoy of some kind to let the party know what they were dealing with. The party was going on a huge quest to do something the gods probably wanted to do themselves but couldn't for one reason or another, so they probably figured helping them out however they could be a good idea.

If this were true then the gods would have no problem telling the Order the truth behind the gates, for the exact same reasons


SO! By that logic i'd say that sometime between sealing the first gate and hunting down Redcloak's village, the order of the scribble and/or the sapphire guard encountered a bearer of the crimson mantle, perhaps one who was following them to grab a gate after they made it and left. They capture him, interrogate him, and either he escapes, they don't realize the cloak was the source of this knowledge, or they hide it away and it just happens to be found again later on. And now they have the story of the snarl, not from any of their own gods, but from the dark one..

And since interrogating someone has been shown to be quite possibly the LEAST effective way to find out accurate information, that lends credence to the idea that they were lied to

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm against them being descendants of the Eastern gods (that correct, I can never remember which is the Greek and which is the fantasy gods), because I'm fairly certain the snarl is either them, or related to them in some closer way.

[Draconi Redfir]

If this were true then the gods would have no problem telling the Order the truth behind the gates, for the exact same reasons



And since interrogating someone has been shown to be quite possibly the LEAST effective way to find out accurate information, that lends credence to the idea that they were lied to

okay, so where is your proof then? Show me your proof that the eastern gods are still alive and well.

[Quartz]

I like the idea. But I think that the MitD is Zeus in some form - after all, we didn't see the Xs in Zeus's eyes. Belkar is Ares, V is Artemis, Haley is Hermes, Elan is Apollo, Roy is Athena, and Durkon is Hades.

[littlebum2002]

okay, so where is your proof then? Show me your proof that the eastern gods are still alive and well.

Oh god no, I think they're long gone.

I just happen to ALSO think that since pretty much all the information we have on the gates comes from Shojo, who got it from the gods, who have made it abundantly clear that they DON'T want to be honest with mortals about the gates; and since we've had main characters literally state out loud that our information regarding the gates is wrong or incomplete, we can be fairly certain that Shojo was mistaken about SOMETHING.

Whether it's just one crucial detail, or whether everything was wrong we can only wait to find out

[Father Miles]

Some of the Shojo story is also known to be false. He said as far as we know. No two ever laid eyes on each other again. Obviously he did not know about Lirian and Dorukan. So because there is already one inaccurate detail, other details could easily be false. For example what if one of the Eastern gods survived and the starmetal is somehow linked to them?

Given Rich's relatively negative take on the OOTS gods, I do not believe the party themselves are related to any gods.

[factotum]

Oh god no, I think they're long gone.

Or possibly even never existed in the first place...

[rbetieh]

Or possibly even never existed in the first place...

Actually, the other pantheons created the Snarl as a weapon to destroy the Eastern Gods. They feared the Eastern gods values would infect the world and take it over, but should have feared the power of their own creation more.

[brian 333]

Hmm, would an adventuring group of the Olympian deities be called the Polity of the Queue?

[Vinyadan]

Hmm, would an adventuring group of the Olympian deities be called the Polity of the Queue?

Band of the Dozen:smallbiggrin: but I like yours better.

[137beth]

Well, since the MitD is really Athena, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047-MitD-007-GoldenEyes-%28Please-Read-the-First-Post%29&p=16480896&viewfull=1#post16480896) then Roy can't also be Athena. Unless everyone in the comic is secretly Athena?


Haley: Artemis (hunt) or Hermes (trickster)
Aside from wielding a bow, there really isn't anything Artemis has in common with Haley. They don't make sense in association at all. And that's even ignoring the absurdities in the entire premise of the OP's conjecture.