Pathfinder Cavalier + 3.5 Marshal? Swashbuckler x2?

[gadren]

If one gave the Pathfinder cavalier all the class features of the 3.5 Marshall class in addition to his Cavalier features, what tier would you say he'd be in for a Pathfinder game?
(Was wondering if this may be a quick fix for a terrible class.)

EDIT: Ok, so that question is answered. What about if I added the 3.5 swashbuckler's class features (with insightful strike based off of charisma instead) to the pathfinder swashbuckler's class features?

[Milo v3]

If one gave the Pathfinder cavalier all the class features of the 3.5 Marshall class in addition to his Cavalier features, what tier would you say he'd be in for a Pathfinder game?
(Was wondering if this may be a quick fix for a terrible class.)

Might bump it to tier 4. Could drop the samurai in it as well (except for katana powers).

[Ssalarn]

I actually wrote a class for Amora Games called the Battle Lord that kind of does this, taking some of the best "leader" abilities from the Cavalier and Marshal and refining them into a new set of abilities. The class uses Drills in combat to create an area effect that grants allies the use of an associated teamwork feat and a scaling buff, and it has Auras it can use out of combat to grant bonuses to related skills alongside various social abilities. The class also gets a military Specialty that grants it a framework of abilities to fill an additional role alongside its core functions of buffing and fighting, such as the Medic specialty to make it a good healer, the Scout specialty to enhance its abilities as a scout and infiltrator, the Soldier specialty that allows him to add his Intelligence bonus to a variety of combat maneuvers and other combat options, and a few more.

It's basically a solid Tier 3 martial. The extra facility from the Specialties is really the thing that nudges it over that line from Tier 4 though; just slapping the Marshal abilities onto the base Cavalier chassis is generally going to leave you still in Tier 4 territory since most of the Marshal abilities range from "not great" to "why would you even...", and at a lot of levels you're going to run in to some action economy bottlenecks that are going to make it hard to leverage the synergies between the two classes.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd say the class would be insta-banned in all PF tables, because it's so broken!

...Really, to be honest, it has the same effect as a Battle Herald does. Battle Herald has Bard features (i.e. its song) and Cavalier features, plus its own set of features. A Cavalier/Marshal hybrid would fit the same purpose.

On the 3.5 side, the Cavalier adds some necessary punch to the Marshal - full BAB, better HD, a mount and a charge ability that actually makes it a solid frontline combatant. The idea is simple - set auras, keep charging, have auras + banner provide passive bonuses to everyone. Challenge is also there to boost damage. Anything that nulls charging will null most of your damage potential, but when the enemy is on the ground, you can still collaborate. Even on a dungeon, auras help.

On the PF side, though...consolidated skills mixed with Charisma to one set of skills might cause some problems. Skills like Acrobatics might get a nice boost (add the Marshalier's Cha to the skill for its Tumble property), but others like UMD, maybe Linguistics and Diplomacy (I mean, Diplomacy is harder now, but the skill might be enough to use it when you need it the most) will induce careful consideration. Likewise, any boost to attack rolls will further boost CMB, so a Marshal will end up providing bonuses on all kinds of Combat Maneuvers, which is both a boon and a bane; a boon because it makes Disarm and Trip useful for just about everyone, a bane because you get such a high bonus on them that either the GM will boost the creatures' CMD, or use the same tactics against you. With Dirty Tactics Toolbox released just now, a Marshalier specializing in Dirty Trick will hinder the enemy so badly it'll make things sorta unfun for everyone. Not to mention that the Marshal has good Will saves (IIRC) and a good set of skill points, making it feel too close to the Bard for comfort.

That said - it's nothing to worry about. It shouldn't (key word) break the game, and it should make the Cavalier much more useful. A Bard/Cavalier hybrid would blast the combination somewhat out of the water, but as it stands, it's as useful as you can make a Battle Herald useful, and the Battle Herald has a small set of spells that make the combination somewhat stronger.

[gadren]

I'd say the class would be insta-banned in all PF tables, because it's so broken!

...Really, to be honest, it has the same effect as a Battle Herald does. Battle Herald has Bard features (i.e. its song) and Cavalier features, plus its own set of features. A Cavalier/Marshal hybrid would fit the same purpose.

On the 3.5 side, the Cavalier adds some necessary punch to the Marshal - full BAB, better HD, a mount and a charge ability that actually makes it a solid frontline combatant. The idea is simple - set auras, keep charging, have auras + banner provide passive bonuses to everyone. Challenge is also there to boost damage. Anything that nulls charging will null most of your damage potential, but when the enemy is on the ground, you can still collaborate. Even on a dungeon, auras help.

On the PF side, though...consolidated skills mixed with Charisma to one set of skills might cause some problems. Skills like Acrobatics might get a nice boost (add the Marshalier's Cha to the skill for its Tumble property), but others like UMD, maybe Linguistics and Diplomacy (I mean, Diplomacy is harder now, but the skill might be enough to use it when you need it the most) will induce careful consideration. Likewise, any boost to attack rolls will further boost CMB, so a Marshal will end up providing bonuses on all kinds of Combat Maneuvers, which is both a boon and a bane; a boon because it makes Disarm and Trip useful for just about everyone, a bane because you get such a high bonus on them that either the GM will boost the creatures' CMD, or use the same tactics against you. With Dirty Tactics Toolbox released just now, a Marshalier specializing in Dirty Trick will hinder the enemy so badly it'll make things sorta unfun for everyone. Not to mention that the Marshal has good Will saves (IIRC) and a good set of skill points, making it feel too close to the Bard for comfort.

That said - it's nothing to worry about. It shouldn't (key word) break the game, and it should make the Cavalier much more useful. A Bard/Cavalier hybrid would blast the combination somewhat out of the water, but as it stands, it's as useful as you can make a Battle Herald useful, and the Battle Herald has a small set of spells that make the combination somewhat stronger.
Thanks for the analysis!

Any thoughts on combining both swashbucklers into one class?

[Vhaidara]

The double swash is actually really not good by default. The 3.5 swash was more Int based, while the PF swash is Cha based.

Fix that disagreement, and it should work.

[Ssalarn]

The double swash is actually really not good by default. The 3.5 swash was more Int based, while the PF swash is Cha based.

Fix that disagreement, and it should work.

They'd be my assessment as well. Pick one stat (I'd probably go with Charisma, but I guess it depends on how you envision your SB), convert both sets of abilities to that stat, and you're pretty solid. It wouldn't change the Tier at all since both sets of abilities are all focused towards the same goals, but it firms up the Tier 4 status.

[T.G. Oskar]

PF Swashbuckler is...pretty solid, so adding stuff from the 3.5 Swashbuckler doesn't do much other than glorify a very specific build.

Insightful Strike adds a pinch of damage on weapons that you're most likely to use (rapiers, other light weapons), so there's that. Nimble and Grace (Nimble Grace?) would become one ability, adding a bonus to AC and Reflex, which would end up with an absurdly high Reflex save (no, really - a focus on Dex, good Reflex saves PLUS a class-based bonus on Reflex means you end up with roughly a +20 on the save with an 18 Dex and nothing else). Acrobatic Charge would become a deed, and since Swashbuckler's Finesse would instead grant Weapon Finesse for free.

The specific build I'd say this mix would glorify is crit-fishing - seriously, with Imp. Critical for free on all swashbuckler-specific weapons, a critical hit multiplier AND critical stat-damaging riders on top, plus Critical feats just to spice it up, you arguably end up with a build whose entire purpose is landing critical hits on everyone and ANYONE. An attack that deals x3 crit damage + 1 point of Str and Con damage per hit (without using deeds) can be quite the headache. Here, Insightful Strike and Swashbuckler Weapon Mastery get magnified by a lot - you're adding, at a bare minimum, somewhere like 12 points of damage per hit on every crit, or more based on the ability score to which Insightful Strike applies.

In short - other than deliberately crit-fishing, you don't end up with a better Swashbuckler than PF already offers, other than boosts to damage and Reflex saves. Now, when you stack Daring Outlaw on top, then things get nasty (Insightful Strike + Swashbuckler Weapon Mastery at full strength + full Sneak Attack certainly overpowers the loss of a deed, +1 to AC and Reflex and x3 critical multiplier, moreso if you add Evasion to the equation AND maybe one Rogue talent (if you do choose the PF Rogue to MC).

[gadren]

PF Swashbuckler is...pretty solid, so adding stuff from the 3.5 Swashbuckler doesn't do much other than glorify a very specific build.

Yeah, I don't really get why Swash is regularly rated at tier 5.
The only reason I'm curious is I'm planning on running a tier 3-4 game and was looking at improving the low tier classes.

[Abithrios]

Yeah, I don't really get why Swash is regularly rated at tier 5.
The only reason I'm curious is I'm planning on running a tier 3-4 game and was looking at improving the low tier classes.

3.5

They get int to damage. They get a few defensive bonuses and a few other offensive bonuses, but none of them more than a +4. There are a few other cooler things at high level, but by that point, they aren't as cool.



Pathfinder

This is not tier 5. They get to block attacks and counter attack. They can get cha to saves most of the time. They get numbers bonuses as big or bigger. They get level to damage. They can intimidate swiftly. They get half as many bonus feats as a fighter. This is all by low level.

I don't think the 3.5 version adds much. If you let them get dex to damage somewhere, pf swashbucklers get enough damage. Even if you don't change the 3.5 one to cha, there is always inspired blade, who wants some int anyway.

[Vhaidara]

The reason of swash is so low rated because it gets gated so hard by swift/immediate actions.
CounteR and luck are both immediates., for example.

[Ssalarn]

The reason of swash is so low rated because it gets gated so hard by swift/immediate actions.
CounteR and luck are both immediates., for example.

This. The PF Swash tends to get action economy bottlenecked, put in a situation where instead of getting bonuses to saves, parrying and countering attacks, etc. he basically has to choose one of those things, and the roughest part is that you'll need to be just prescient enough to know which is going to be most useful about a round in advance, otherwise you get a cascade of fail. It's basically version 2 Crane Wing as a class.
It's great for one on one duels, less great in most of the situations an adventurer will actually be faced with.

[Abithrios]

The reason of swash is so low rated because it gets gated so hard by swift/immediate actions.
CounteR and luck are both immediates., for example.

I am playing a pathfinder swashbuckler now, and the swift action economy is definitely very tight. I would say that is the biggest anti-synergy I have noticed so far. The other problem I have is that you have to hit an enemy to use menacing swordplay. Intimidation is less often needed after you put your sword through their lung.

That said, I have found my swashbuckler to be quite competent when it comes to perforating enemies and preventing them from returning the favor. The charisma dependence goes well with their class skills, which include all the social skills. Mobility skills are also class skills and can be boosted by spending panache.

Overall, I disagree that the pathfinder swashbuckler is tier 5.

Edit to add:


This. The PF Swash tends to get action economy bottlenecked, put in a situation where instead of getting bonuses to saves, parrying and countering attacks, etc. he basically has to choose one of those things, and the roughest part is that you'll need to be just prescient enough to know which is going to be most useful about a round in advance, otherwise you get a cascade of fail. It's basically version 2 Crane Wing as a class.
It's great for one on one duels, less great in most of the situations an adventurer will actually be faced with.

It's more like parrying plus one other thing. If you just parry, it doesn't use your immediate action.

I would also say that it doesn't have to be just one enemy that is targeting you, as long as they are using melee attacks. In fact, it may be better if there are weaker enemies attacking you, because you are more likely to drop the one you can counterattack and regain the panache you spent to parry.

[gadren]

Might bump it to tier 4. Could drop the samurai in it as well (except for katana powers).

Don't really care about Samurai, but figured I might as well dump the 3.5 knight in there too (well, some of it at least).

[Ssalarn]

It's more like parrying plus one other thing. If you just parry, it doesn't use your immediate action.

I would also say that it doesn't have to be just one enemy that is targeting you, as long as they are using melee attacks. In fact, it may be better if there are weaker enemies attacking you, because you are more likely to drop the one you can counterattack and regain the panache you spent to parry.

It's why I had parrying and counter-attacking lumped together, since they're part of the same ability and do require an immediate action when used together.

Also-

I would also say that it doesn't have to be just one enemy that is targeting you, as long as they are using melee attacks.

....

What if there's a spell caster and his two protective brutes? Do I parry and riposte a brute, or do I save my immediate action for Charmed Life in case the spellcaster uses an ability that targets one of my two bad saves?What if one of the brutes is a tripper? Do I use my swift action to stand up? Do I even [i]have[i] a swift action to stand up, or did I use it on charmed life or opportune parry and riposte? The Swashbuckler has 7 abilities that either require a swift/immediate action to use, or can require one, plus another ability that shuts down all of those abilities when used. Using one of those abilities locks out the others either on that turn, or the next, so essentially 1/3 of the class' abilities aren't compatible with the others. You can counterattack or have saves that don't suck, but not both. You can move at full speed while using acrobatics, but not if you narrowly avoided death last round. She can deal 2x her class level in precision damage, but not if she use dodging panache to take a 5 foot step and gain a bonus to her AC last round. Etcetera, etcetera. The farther away from level 1 you get, the more congested your abilities get. The more varied (which to me, personally, is synonymous with "interesting") the opponents in your combat encounters are, the less versatile you are.

That being said, I think the Swashbuckler actually squeaks in to Tier 4 range, but so narrowly that it's actually arguable whether or not it has defenses comparable to the Fighter's, or whether its DPR is up to the standard set by the Ranger.