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Brodencrantz
2015-10-29, 06:27 PM
So I've been watching Sword Art Online and have been thinking about how I could potentially run it as a RPG. Some of my players are huge fans and I think they'd love the opportunity to do what is essentially a huge hundred-level upwards dungeon crawl.

The more I think about it, the more the few systems I'm accustomed to don't particularly fit. So, I thought I'd come to the geniuses at the boards and beg for help finding something that fits the following criteria.

1: No magic (and is balanced to not need magic)
2: Meaningful options for weapon selection (a sword and board fighter should feel different than a greatsword fighter. Both should be viable)
3: Deadly at all levels of play

Requests:
Range of useful non-combat skills with potential perks in combat
In depth(-ish) crafting
Incremental advancement of abilities/ combat-based xp system



For what i've considered
D&D is out for 1 (although maybe one of the OSR games if it could include the non-combat stuff)
Fate is out for 2/3
13th age is out for 1

GloatingSwine
2015-10-29, 06:45 PM
Remember to make it about how the conflict between the DMPC and the blatant mary sue overshadow all the other PCs ;)

JeenLeen
2015-10-30, 10:54 AM
I think this was a thread from a few months ago talking about making a game like this, but I tried searching for Sword Art Online in the search menu and just found some Pathfinder campaigns. You might find some inspiration from those, even if D&D/Pathfinder is out.

Keep in mind that the 'mundane' combat abilities the players have, and their speed, could be considered magical at high enough levels. So maybe a system with some very light magic could be reflavored as skill. And there were minor magic items like healing potions and escape crystals.

One big plus d20 has for it is that characters get exponentially stronger. In something like World of Darkness, a more xp-dude is not that much harder to kill than a low-xp dude, since HP is generally static. In d20 like D&D or Pathfinder, though, a high-level person can basically beat up several low-levels without a risk. Like how the main character just got attacked by a bunch of PKers in one episode, and just sat there taking it since his regen and armor meant they were doing effectively no damage. You probably don't want a system where it's easy to die.
No ideas for a system come to mind except D&D or shootoffs thereof, but maybe the above will help you in picking one from others' recommendations.

A thought, though. I would think a game like this would get really boring fast if it focuses on one dungeon after another. If your players like politics, the politics of guilds, working together, and fighting/imprisoning PKers could give good breaks to 'clear the next floor'. But this could be a cool hack-n-slash type game. You may want to refluff how boss battles generally take a huge group to beat, since otherwise you'd be running a lot of NPCs alongside your PCs during boss battles, and that's a pain in time and bookkeeping regardless of system.

ImperatorV
2015-10-30, 12:18 PM
Off the top of my head, the maneuvers system in Tome of Battle for d&d 3.5e could represent sword skills very well, although some of the martial disciplines have abilities that don't exist in SAO (notably the shadow hand teleports and devoted spirit heals, but the desert wind "I am so skilled my sword bursts into flames" might also count).

Fizban
2015-10-31, 09:16 AM
Define the need for magic. The big thing that's actually missing in Aincrad that's necessary for many DnD monsters is credible ranged attacks. If you force all your monsters to play by the same rules of no flying and no shooting, then I agree with the above that a 3.5/Pathfinder game restricted to martial maneuvers should do the trick (though you might need to broaden and/or tweak some to your liking). The key is that the maneuver systems include defenses that would usually require magic, and DnD melee has always been pretty lethal and swingy for PCs. Without gobs of magic the PCs will have to use the same careful aggro management and switching tactics. DnD's much maligned boring standard magic items are the perfect fit for an MMO inspired world: +X sword, +Y armor, ability boosters, skill boosters, etc, you just drop the flashy stuff and add some higher tier potions (all in the show too: a dex ring, swords, armor, and the book tells us his black coat had a hide bonus. And drop the potion prices so they're actually useable, 15 instead of 50 in the formula).

In keeping with the controlled MMO world, I'd suggest a whitelist approach. Establish the full list of disciplines, feats, skills, etc, with none of this "ooh I found a cool new book and I wanna use it stuff." Each character gets maybe one unique skill later on that could come from something else, otherwise they're fighting with the same pool of tricks to choose from as everyone else. Martial maneuvers don't much care about weapon choice, but feats do, so that's where you'll get your difference. Pathfinder has the Vital Strike feat which is far stronger for big weapon users, and uh, maybe there's something nice for shields somewhere.

Imperator suggests removing the blatantly supernatural disciplines, but JeenLeen thinks this might not be necessary and I agree. Shadow Hand teleports are unstoppably fast lunges (just add a clause where you can't squeeze through), though the Shadow Garrote would need to go. Crusader Strikes that heal a sliver of hp are perfectly fine. Desert Wind, okay that's most out (unless you're way further on in the series). On the other hand, Setting Sun throws might make moving foes around too easy. It'd all depend on taste, I'd suggest going through ToB and whatever the Pathfinder version is and making a list, you'll probably need to draw from both to keep it full enough to feel varied when that's all there is.

For bosses, just stick with the same conceit: way too many health bars. If you have a foe that's a tough challenge but doable for a party without extra healing, then give it 5x as much health, they're gonna need more people. You can increase the size without altering the stats and let it attack multiple squares so it threatens more people: 5x as much health, 5x as many people hurt with each hit, 5x as many people dealing damage at once, something like that. As long as each individual doesn't take any more damage than if they were fighting the normal monster with their normal party it should work out. You don't need to fully run the rest of the raid group, they could basically be window dressing, maybe roll the damage they're dealing each round assuming X hit and they keep themselves rotating and alive just fine. Maybe if the PCs are doing well they'll need to cover for an NPC who's taking too much DPS and needs to emergency heal.

Sorry we're all suggesting the first thing you crossed out, but it's what we know and Jeen's point about the leveling is basically the point. SAO is based on MMOs, MMOs are based on a line of videogames leading back basically to DnD, so it's probably gonna be the best fit. I suppose you could take a look at 5e and strip out some of the death protections, but it's never gonna be as flashy as 3.P manuevers (5e "maneuvers" are all just +1d8 damage and a minor effect).

Mutazoia
2015-10-31, 11:57 AM
So I've been watching Sword Art Online and have been thinking about how I could potentially run it as a RPG. Some of my players are huge fans and I think they'd love the opportunity to do what is essentially a huge hundred-level upwards dungeon crawl.

The more I think about it, the more the few systems I'm accustomed to don't particularly fit. So, I thought I'd come to the geniuses at the boards and beg for help finding something that fits the following criteria.

1: No magic (and is balanced to not need magic)
2: Meaningful options for weapon selection (a sword and board fighter should feel different than a greatsword fighter. Both should be viable)
3: Deadly at all levels of play

Requests:
Range of useful non-combat skills with potential perks in combat
In depth(-ish) crafting
Incremental advancement of abilities/ combat-based xp system



For what i've considered
D&D is out for 1 (although maybe one of the OSR games if it could include the non-combat stuff)
Fate is out for 2/3
13th age is out for 1


Off the top of my head, I would say "Iron Heroes". It's a D20 system with no magic. (Ok..there is one OPTIONAL magic class). Since there's no magic, and thus no magical healing, combat can get pretty bloody.

There's always GURPS...run the fantasy rules with out the magic (perhaps the Conan ruleset)

There's the Conan RPG....

Broken Twin
2015-10-31, 04:29 PM
If you want to use a d20 system, I'd highly suggest Fantasy Craft (Second Printing). Magic is strictly optional, the options you take can drastically change which weapons you use and your options while using them, and by default the creatures scale with the party, so combat is always as deadly as you want it to be. Plenty of built-in campaign options as well. Pretty much no trap options either, which is awesome.

Fair warning, character creation is very crunchy for first timers.

Faily
2015-10-31, 08:15 PM
Echoing the others above, Fizban in particular, the D&D can fit very well to SAO's Aincrad. Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's version of it can be tweaked with minimal effort to work in the setting. Something like Rangers could also exist (without spells of course), as seen with Silica who was a Beast Tamer and had an animal sidekick, Pina. Basically, you could also give Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues a dose of Disciplines to put them on par with the ToB-classes, and you're set after some minor changes. I don't think you can find anything that fits SAO out-of-the-gates.


As for crafting, remove the need for spells and caster level to create magic items, use the baseline of GP cost to determine the value of ingredients needed. We've seen in that ingredient-hunting can be a part of the crafting, as in the episode when Kirito commissions a new sword.

If you want something MMO-ish for crafting, here's a quick take on how you could makeshift SW:TOR's crafting for SAO. Not perfect and I kinda just thought up some skills on the fly, but first draft from the top of my head and all.

You can choose one Crafting Ability. Depending on which one you choose, you can choose two corresponding skills that you gain a bonus to (+2 or something).

Accessories
Creates items for the following slots: Eyes, Hands, Headband, Ring, Throat/Neck, Waist, Wrists.
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Accessory), Knowledge (Arcana), Sleight of Hand.

Armor
Creates armor and shields.
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Armor), Knowledge (Tactics), Spot.

Clothes
Creates items for the following slots: Body, Chest, Hands, Head, Feet, Shoulders.
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Clothing), Knowledge (Nature), Survival.

Healing Items
Creates potions/crystals that heal HP or removes negative status effects (or the rare-drop that restores a recently dead person to life).
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Crystal), Heal, Knowledge (Nature).

Weapons
Creates weapons.
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Weapons), Knowledge (Tactics), Search.

Wondrous Items
Creates crystals that can create various effects, like the Escape Crystals.
Corresponding skills: Appraise, Craft (Crystal), Knowldge (Arcana), Spellcraft.

Dusk Eclipse
2015-10-31, 09:06 PM
I'd actually suggest PoW and ToB, since moar disciplines will be quite useful when all the party must use them. Granted there are a couple (SU) discipline which would require some tweaking, most likely the ones with access to healing (Silver Crane and Devoted Spirit) or blatantly supernatural schools (Shadow Hand and Shattered mirror), so your mileage may vary.


Another option I can suggest is using Anima Beyond Fantasy but only using the Ki Dominion techniques, since it has a very robust technique creation system, however things can get out of hand easily if you don't go with a fine comb through the player created technique. You might also want to limit certain Ki abilities (like Ki flight). It is a fairly crunchy system and it might be hard to get hold of, but it is an option.

Voxx
2015-11-01, 01:06 AM
I haven't done much with the system itself I've only played a short tutorial session with a friend and the dm but the Fate system seems to be pretty good at adapting comicbook, and manga ideas. It might be worth a look if you're really thinking of running an SAO game.

Mutazoia
2015-11-01, 03:33 AM
I haven't done much with the system itself I've only played a short tutorial session with a friend and the dm but the Fate system seems to be pretty good at adapting comicbook, and manga ideas. It might be worth a look if you're really thinking of running an SAO game.

There's always one person that has to drag FATE into every system discussion :tongue:

mikeejimbo
2015-11-01, 11:54 AM
There's always one person that has to drag FATE into every system discussion :tongue:

There's also always the one person who has to bring up GURPS. It's usually me, but you beat me to it this time. :smalltongue:

But seriously - GURPS doesn't require magic, has meaningful differences between weapon selection, has combat perks, has a lot of out-of-combat depth, has rules for crafting stuff. The only thing from that list that it is somewhat lacking in is XP-based character advancement, but most GMs just replace that with awarding character points if they're into that kind of thing. I've heard of plenty of games that start out at 200 points and go to where the characters are in the thousands.

tomandtish
2015-11-03, 02:23 PM
I think this was a thread from a few months ago talking about making a game like this, but I tried searching for Sword Art Online in the search menu and just found some Pathfinder campaigns. You might find some inspiration from those, even if D&D/Pathfinder is out.

Keep in mind that the 'mundane' combat abilities the players have, and their speed, could be considered magical at high enough levels. So maybe a system with some very light magic could be reflavored as skill. And there were minor magic items like healing potions and escape crystals.


This is the most important thing to remember. A lot of skills were effectively magical in ability. There were healing potions and magic items, but at one point Kirito is attacked by 6-7 opponents at once. He comments that his regeneration is so high that he's healing all the damage they do effectively immediately.

Dusk Eclipse
2015-11-03, 04:53 PM
To be fair he was like 10 or more levels higher than those guys :smalltongue:, but yeah the "no-magic" in Aincrad seems it only applied to offensive type spells.

Lentrax
2015-11-03, 05:40 PM
I think a game based on SAO would be a little crazy, in pen and paper terms. Keeping track of weapon unlocks, keeping track of your skills and your sword skills, calculating damage.

I see a pdf with a LOT of tables.

Faily
2015-11-03, 08:01 PM
To be fair he was like 10 or more levels higher than those guys :smalltongue:, but yeah the "no-magic" in Aincrad seems it only applied to offensive type spells.

That and Caster-classes. SAO is in many ways a high-magic game when you think of what kind of gear Kirito had, some of the rares, Silica's magical animal companion/familiar creature that could be brought back to life, and that "killing other players"-story.

It just doesn't have any Wizards flying around and throwing fireballs. :smallbiggrin:

Dusk Eclipse
2015-11-03, 09:57 PM
If I was running a SAO game (and to be honest I'm kinda tempted to) I would probably go with Aelfheim rather than Aincrad, things are a little simpler when you don't have to go with a fine comb over what is allowed and what not. I'd still probably limit players to 3/4 casters at the most though, but that isn't so bad in PF where the best classes are indeed those.

Anteros
2015-11-03, 10:20 PM
Remember to make it about how the conflict between the DMPC and the blatant mary sue overshadow all the other PCs ;)

I don't recall the main character being particularly Mary Sueish.

Dusk Eclipse
2015-11-03, 10:41 PM
Look, I love SAO, it is one of my favourite series ever, but even I have to admit that Kirito was pretty Marty-stuish, he was one of the best players in the game despite willingly and knowingy making rather subotimal choices, he had pretty much every named female character falling for him in some way or another, of 10,000 players he was the only one to unlock the dual blade skill (granted that was by design, and I think the light novels mentioned there were 10 unique skills as a "reward" for the top players), and that is only in Aincrad. In Aelfheim he was able to go toe to toe with one of the most powerful PVP-oriented players (General Eugene) who was armed with a hax-sword and win... despite having what? ~10 hours of playtime at most (yes I know his SAO stats were transfered, but still), he also managed to make use of "useless" spell only because the already mentioned hax stats. And in GGO he won the BoB, using a melee character... while also gaining the attention of yet another female character. So yeah Marty Stu.

Deophaun
2015-11-03, 10:48 PM
That, and the Onyomi reading of Kirito's name is Maritsu.

I may have made that up.

I am curious as to how much like SAO you want this. The barriers for fast healing would have to be pretty low. There's the question of what the switch maneuver actually does. And you'd probably need to throw in the BoEF to make everyone needlessly uncomfortable in the final acts.

Fizban
2015-11-04, 07:34 AM
Look, I love SAO, it is one of my favourite series ever, but even I have to admit that Kirito was pretty Marty-stuish, he was one of the best players in the game despite willingly and knowingy making rather subotimal choices, he had pretty much every named female character falling for him in some way or another, of 10,000 players he was the only one to unlock the dual blade skill (granted that was by design, and I think the light novels mentioned there were 10 unique skills as a "reward" for the top players), and that is only in Aincrad. In Aelfheim he was able to go toe to toe with one of the most powerful PVP-oriented players (General Eugene) who was armed with a hax-sword and win... despite having what? ~10 hours of playtime at most (yes I know his SAO stats were transfered, but still), he also managed to make use of "useless" spell only because the already mentioned hax stats. And in GGO he won the BoB, using a melee character... while also gaining the attention of yet another female character. So yeah Marty Stu.
*Engages defensive mode* Well for starters he's not worse than any other male lead in similar media. I'm not sure what suboptimal choices you're referring to other than the admittedly suicidal lone-wolfing. Unlike most male leads in the same situation he did form a relationship with one partner instead of maintaining harem-quo. As for being a top player, well would you prefer we follow some shlub who never leaves town? Of course the story will follow the most powerful people, that's where the action is.

As for Alfheim, I don't remember how obvious it was made in the show, but the novel tells us the reason he's overpowered there is that unlike Aincrad's sword skill system, Alfheim basically just uses "phsyics" and actually has no stats at all (there's a point about using player skill instead of stats drawing in PvPers), except maybe magic?. Anyway, faster swing=more damage, and with no speed stat to cap your speed, you move as fast as your brain can manipulate the system. Kirito (and other Aincrad survivors) were hooked up to their nerve gears for 2 years straight, making them literally the most qualified, most experienced operators of that control device (I believe it was noted that other Aincrad survivors were similarly powerful). So yeah, this Eugene guy who never fought for his life and has played at most what, 1 year in his spare time compared to 2 years literally 24/7? He's got nothin but that hax sword in comparison (of course Kirito also fought dirty and used a smokescreen the guy didn't expect, courtesy of Yui playing strategist for him). I'm actually surprised you didn't complain about the real Marty-Stu-ing of that scene: the classic "protagonist immediately figures out the exact counter for this thing no one's ever managed to counter," to which I would have no response.

Got nothin for the BoB fights though, well except that he only actually fought a few times and mostly won through sheer surprise factor again. That's actually a bit of a running theme if you pay enough attention: Kirito isn't nearly as OP as some people think, he's constantly getting surprise attacks, help from outside, and generally knowing he's not actually in control (at least if you read the books, I think even the official translation's reaching GGO now). Attracting new ladies every arc? Still par for the course, the author is not exactly groundbreaking in that area (or subtle in his villainous motivations).

But an alternate reading of his name that's basically Matry Stu? That's gotta be intentional. For those who don't know, apparently SAO was first a web novel. As something posted on the internet and considering how unoriginal/formulaic/memetic a lot of characters names are getting, I would totally believe that. If you hadn't admitted you were making it up.

Right, uh, dnd mechanics. Massive fast healing is a problem that can't really be dealt with since a gang of lowbies can still outdamage it easy. I think the best way to model it would be a combination of medium fast healing around 1-5=10 ish combined with massive damage reduction. MMOs and MMO-likes seem to like the idea that regardless of your stats, a level difference just makes things take way less damage. Just a difference of a few levels in some games can render a foe nearly immune to your attacks. For DnD this could be modeled with say, DR=level difference, so a difference of 10 levels results in DR 10/-. Still not nearly enough to make you immune, but if combined with some armor or skill that was already providing DR, and some fast healing, and you were fighting back, definitely enough to make losing nigh-impossible.

Deophaun
2015-11-04, 11:36 AM
*Engages defensive mode* Well for starters he's not worse than any other male lead in similar media. I'm not sure what suboptimal choices you're referring to other than the admittedly suicidal lone-wolfing. Unlike most male leads in the same situation he did form a relationship with one partner instead of maintaining harem-quo. As for being a top player, well would you prefer we follow some shlub who never leaves town? Of course the story will follow the most powerful people, that's where the action is.
Besides the lone-wolfing, there's the fact that he spends an awful lot of time on the lower levels, palling around with characters who are much lower in level than he is, and yet somehow is able to keep up with people in guilds dedicated to grinding out the upper floors.

Also, he does spend a lot of time never leaving town.

Kirito should not be where the action is, as he's far removed from the game challenges.

DireSickFish
2015-11-04, 11:42 AM
Ask the guy behind this journal: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423757-Sword-Art-Online-Plus-(a-Pathfinder-Campaign-Journal)

He seems to have a rather robust behind the scenes system worked out. The main problem I would have running this kind of game is you need to plan out a -lot- of stuff beforehand. You need to re-work xp because the players can be grinding 16 or more hours a day. He seems to have some sort of table or chart where they can dedicate grinding a monster for XP if it's provent hey can beat it without difficulty.

He also has at least the 1st and 2nd level mapped out with beginner and endgame content. There's also a butt-load of secrets and quests the players can find.

He seemed to limit starting classes but opened up more and allowed retraining. Feats and psionics can also be given as rewards. I'd go with a very crunchy system for this kind of thing. Especially something like 3.5's tier list can give you an idea of what classes they can start off as and what ones will open up in the future.

Fizban
2015-11-04, 07:40 PM
Besides the lone-wolfing, there's the fact that he spends an awful lot of time on the lower levels, palling around with characters who are much lower in level than he is, and yet somehow is able to keep up with people in guilds dedicated to grinding out the upper floors.

Also, he does spend a lot of time never leaving town.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions based on screen time. All the side-stories in the first several episodes happened during the lower 50 floors, plenty of time to catch back up to the front before the 70th even if he did fall behind. It took 2 years to clear 70 floors, 35 floors per year, no more than three floors per month. He took a two week break at the end when the floor had been mostly cleared but they hadn't found the boss yet. We're also told that the number of people on the front lines is decreasing, and people buy houses and live on the lower floors so of course you're going to see them down there regardless of level.

I will take a look at that campaign journal later, or at least the mechanics section.

Blackhawk748
2015-11-04, 07:55 PM
Exalted if your ok with d10

Anteros
2015-11-06, 12:09 PM
Look, I love SAO, it is one of my favourite series ever, but even I have to admit that Kirito was pretty Marty-stuish, he was one of the best players in the game despite willingly and knowingy making rather subotimal choices, he had pretty much every named female character falling for him in some way or another, of 10,000 players he was the only one to unlock the dual blade skill (granted that was by design, and I think the light novels mentioned there were 10 unique skills as a "reward" for the top players), and that is only in Aincrad. In Aelfheim he was able to go toe to toe with one of the most powerful PVP-oriented players (General Eugene) who was armed with a hax-sword and win... despite having what? ~10 hours of playtime at most (yes I know his SAO stats were transfered, but still), he also managed to make use of "useless" spell only because the already mentioned hax stats. And in GGO he won the BoB, using a melee character... while also gaining the attention of yet another female character. So yeah Marty Stu.

The harem thing is just an anime thing. It happens in like, every anime ever.

The only reason he was able to match Eugene was by cheating. Honestly though, I wasn't really considering anything after the Aelfheim arc in my comment. I know it's canon, but everything after that arc is like a bad fan-fiction.


I think you are making a lot of assumptions based on screen time. All the side-stories in the first several episodes happened during the lower 50 floors, plenty of time to catch back up to the front before the 70th even if he did fall behind. It took 2 years to clear 70 floors, 35 floors per year, no more than three floors per month. He took a two week break at the end when the floor had been mostly cleared but they hadn't found the boss yet. We're also told that the number of people on the front lines is decreasing, and people buy houses and live on the lower floors so of course you're going to see them down there regardless of level.

I will take a look at that campaign journal later, or at least the mechanics section.

Plus they can literally teleport. It takes less than 10 seconds to go from the lower levels to the front lines.

Alent
2015-11-07, 02:09 AM
SAO is great, except where it's terrible. (GGO arc, the harem, all the places with continuity errors, etc.)


Honestly though, I wasn't really considering anything after the Aelfheim arc in my comment. I know it's canon, but everything after that arc is like a bad fan-fiction.

Chronologically, or in order of publication? Because the best stories set in Aincrad were written (or at least published) after the trainwreck that was GGO- Murder case in the Area, First day, and the entirety of SAO Progressive.


Plus they can literally teleport. It takes less than 10 seconds to go from the lower levels to the front lines.

To say nothing of the level cap by floor. Kirito sits pretty much the entire game at max EXP, maxing it as soon as new floors are opened and then spending the rest of his time mapping dungeons and farming for lolis rare drops.

As far as running SAO... I'd try to adapt the basic ideas from ToB/PoW to 5th, and run all mundane 5th characters, with the following tweaks:

Gaining advantage against enemies in base contact with another player requires declaring that you're switching with that player, and they get a free disengage. Otherwise, no advantage for basing enemies.

No ranged weapons other than thrown weapons. SAO is very specific about combat being melee only.

SAO has magic items called Charms. The Teleport crystals, healing crystals, etc. are charms. They basically function as utility/support items, and there are anti-magic zones that shut them down entirely. Oddly, the menu is considered a magic charm by the high AI NPCs. (See SAO Progressive book 2.)

On that note, SAO Progressive has demonstrated that there's an actual "in game" plot- The players all play humans from the lower world, come to kill the crimson jade emperor and return the 100 floors of Aincrad to the earth. (They were pretty much scooped up from the world below, which is why in the original book art of Aincrad, it looks like a bunch of layers of sod piled up.) Magic exists but isn't usable because Mana flows through the earth, and there's only enough earth to fuel the tiny charms just mentioned.

There are around four AI levels.
1) Regular RPG NPCs have one line of dialog, possibly a second line of dialog.
2) Scripted NPC are like the regular RPG NPC, but runs a route and otherwise pretends to be a person.
3) High AI NPC are quite humanlike, but still on the "Dumb computer" side of the uncanny valley. Will communicate in a very human way, have (fake) emotional responses, and will actually learn and persist player interaction data, but will probably not understand slang. Also, they are unfamiliar with the real world and run it through a weirdness censor. They sometimes have visible pauses between dialogs when the Cardinal system is attempting to figure out appropriate responses. High AI NPCs are typically created dynamically, as needed, by the Cardinal System.
4) Yui. (Not really applicable to a campaign.)

Sword Art Online's weapon enhancement system is convoluted, but translates roughly as follows:
Sharpness: Increase base damage
Accuracy: base +1~+5.
Quickness: Increase critical hit range.
Weight: Supplemental to sharpness for damage, and this matters in Parry/weapon clash situations. Whichever weapon is heavier wins the weapon clash. How well this works in D&D is up to you, I'd probably refrain from modeling it given that
Durability: Increased item HP. Players are to be aware that the DM is sundering items, and that items break with use anyway. (Monsters also have ways to disarm then steal items.)
(I may have accuracy and quickness backwards. It's been a while since I read the book they explained that in.)

I would outright skip the skill grinding aspect of the story. It doesn't translate very well since skills cap out at 1000 (they can be maxed somewhere around floor 60), and the list of skills in SAO is completely arbitrary. Basically, if it's needed, new skills are invented to suit plot demands at that minute.

Dual wielding is also an odd spot. You can actually dual wield freely in SAO, and there are quite a few lesser characters that very clearly are running around with two weapons. (Yulier for example has a MH whip and a OH dagger equipped, and Argo has dual wielded Cat-claws from floor 1.) That said, they don't seem to use them at the same time because of the hand coordination challenge it presents, so I would model that as "you can have two weapons equipped, but attempting to use them at the same time results in disadvantage on attacks. Switch hitting is fine."

Healing potions function as heal over time effects. Healing crystals are instant heals. Base health regeneration out of combat is slow, and the books make it hard to tell how slow because the main characters always pot up. Eating seems to speed regen up. I would say an hour's rest is a full heal, period.

Knowing what sword skill is coming is huge in SAO, so let's model that by giving monsters that use sword skills a D8. That's their stance die. Odd numbers for low guard, even numbers for high guard. Roll it after regular attacks, flip it after sword skills. (odd -> even, even-> odd) Come up with default sword skills for each value and let them see what the enemy's stance is. Some monsters have customized sword skills. Give those monsters a D10 and shuffle the numbers up.

Players can use prepared actions to respond to enemy attacks, but they have to designate a specific sword skill when they do. If they correctly identify the enemy sword skill, they get advantage on their prepared action. If they fail to correctly identify the enemy sword skill, disadvantage.

The Cardinal AI that governs SAO has strict anti-mudflation mechanisms built in. If your players have too much Kol, the price of goods, materials, lodging, guild halls, etc. reacts accordingly to bring their wealth down. That said, you're going to be breaking their weapons, armor, etc. routinely, so you'll need to hand them more gold than average. No weapon should survive more than 3 floors. Cheap ones shouldn't survive the dungeon.

That's all I can think of right now. I need to get back to my NaNoWriMo novel. :smalleek:

Fizban
2015-11-07, 04:14 AM
I was not aware the Progressive re-writes/additions/whatever were that heavy on mechanics, kinda makes me less interested in reading them.

I was thinking on my point about Kirito never winning anything himself and the story is where the action is, and it should also be noted that almost none of the fights in the story are 100 floor dungeon level grinding (obviously I haven't read Progressive so I could be wrong there). It's always bosses, rare material quests, or other players. Standard drama rules apply, people+people=stuff, and in SAO that happens for boss fights, or when a smith needs materials they aren't strong enough to farm on their own, or someone's trying to kill you.

In light of that I would actually recommend an SAO game to go extremely easy on the dungeon clearing. Maybe present a random encounter on the way there/back or have a low frequency table, set up interesting scenarios like dragon fights or deathtrap treasure rooms, but generally just let the players wander around at will. Maybe lose the leveling system entirely and just assume that the PCs are always at the max level allowed for the area (like Norren just said Kirito apparently does). Take it as an opportunity to play around with interesting dungeon fragments and whatever social drama you set up without needing to keep track of the xp or a detailed world map unless the plot demands it. You can rely on game conceits even more since unlike a setting that's trying to be "realistic," the PCs are literally stuck in a game.

Alent
2015-11-07, 04:36 AM
I was not aware the Progressive re-writes/additions/whatever were that heavy on mechanics, kinda makes me less interested in reading them.

They're still largely story driven, and not that fixated on mechanics. Most of the mechanics are in fact from the original series, Progressive just sort of simplified them down a bit and made them behave more like an MMO, while focusing more on the story itself. The NPC that Kirito and Asuna pick up on the third floor really opens up the story of the SAO "game" in a way that the regular cast couldn't by themselves.

I was writing an SAO fanfic a while back and wanted to make sure I properly understood the source material, so I kind of dug through the books and documented the "game" itself. Most of the system is established in the two Aincrad books, with occasional "throwback" details peppered in along the way.

Anteros
2015-11-10, 01:11 AM
SAO is great, except where it's terrible. (GGO arc, the harem, all the places with continuity errors, etc.)



Chronologically, or in order of publication? Because the best stories set in Aincrad were written (or at least published) after the trainwreck that was GGO- Murder case in the Area, First day, and the entirety of SAO Progressive.


I was talking about the anime actually. I tried the books, but bad writing+a bad translation do not make a compelling read.

Lordgrayson2000
2018-11-21, 03:37 PM
So I've been watching Sword Art Online and have been thinking about how I could potentially run it as a RPG. Some of my players are huge fans and I think they'd love the opportunity to do what is essentially a huge hundred-level upwards dungeon crawl.

The more I think about it, the more the few systems I'm accustomed to don't particularly fit. So, I thought I'd come to the geniuses at the boards and beg for help finding something that fits the following criteria.

1: No magic (and is balanced to not need magic)
2: Meaningful options for weapon selection (a sword and board fighter should feel different than a greatsword fighter. Both should be viable)
3: Deadly at all levels of play

Requests:
Range of useful non-combat skills with potential perks in combat
In depth(-ish) crafting
Incremental advancement of abilities/ combat-based xp system



For what i've considered
D&D is out for 1 (although maybe one of the OSR games if it could include the non-combat stuff)
Fate is out for 2/3
13th age is out for 1

I'm making a Sao game as well, but I'm just using 5e d&d with some tweaks

1. The magic system is pretty much gone, spells are replaced by magical words that wizards(the only spell casting class) can learn and use
2. Every player has access to the Martial Adept feat and those maneuvers
3. Reworked skill system, the more you use a skill or tool or weapon the more you level up in that thing starts at 0 goes to 1000 having Proficiency starts you at 350/1000

Son of A Lich!
2018-11-21, 06:53 PM
I would go M&Ms. I'm actually designing a basis for a M&M game that follows a Matrix/SAO/MLP kinda thing (Think Strawberry Shortcake depiction of "I have no Mouth"). It's not too tough; You can easily have players equipped with fancy new attacks and stats and skills with little effort and an AP. It would also help explain the switch Mechanic.

...

Now, as far as Kirito being a Mary Sue;

I look at it like this; I'm not sure where I learned Conflict Dynamics like this (Unoriginal pointed out that I don't have a source for my terminology, but it works for me and my understanding. So take it with a grain of salt), but it helps explain conflict in a story pretty smoothly.

There are 5 roles in Conflict Dynamics. Protagonist (Leading the Charge), Antagonist (Against the Charge), Neutagonist (Neutral to the Charge), Deuteragonist (God who oversees the charge), and Nontagonist (Unable to Charge). Then we have a Sue-tagonist, who can't pick a role and stick with it.

Most Villains are Protagonists. Since we're talking about Greeks and Charging, I'll use 300 as my example here. Sparta is a pretty chill place that regularly murders babies, but is otherwise happy. Xerxes wants to take over the world, and to do that, he needs to take Sparta. This is the Conflict that 300 focuses on.

Antagonists want to stop the conflict. Most heroes are Antagonists, Leonidas wants to keep Sparta the way it is, and doesn't want Xerxes to get his glitz and glam all over it.

Deuteragonists are characters that dictate the conflict, but don't have stake in how it pans out itself. The Priests of the Old Gods tell Leonidas he can't go to war, forcing Leo to only take a retinue of 300 men for his personal protection. Most importantly is that Deuteragonists can't be argued against or reasoned with, what they say is ultimate unbreakable truth.

Neutagonists are characters that are caught in-between the conflicting sides. They aren't loyal to one side or another, but their help will dictate who wins the conflict in the end. The Mutant character initially helps Leonidas, but is turned away for not being able to help with the Phalanx; he turns to Xerxes and tells him about the Goat Path, in exchange for a uniform. The uniform isn't the conflict of Xerxes v Leo, but his help pushes Xerxes into a winning position.

Nontagonists are characters that can't directly influence the conflict themselves. They provide an emotional pull to justify the characters they are aligned with to push harder for victory. Leonidas's queen is a Nontagonist, but also the little boy that survives the Immortals attack would be a nontagonist.

For Kirito to be a Sue-tagonist, I would ask what the central conflict of the story is and does he fit into the story nicely in one role? If he is consistently dipping into other positions, I think that is proof enough. If the story revolves around him to a point that no one can possibly get by without his involvement and they are unable to assist him but simply enable him to explode into the center of the story, Kirito is a power fantasy that is designed to appeal to teens. Everything is about them.

Is Kirito the Antagonist? Yes, he is setting out to defeat the BBEG, who created a game to kill everyone. He has the skill set necessary, as a beta-tester, to help defeat the dungeons...

However...

Kirito doesn't actually beat most of the dungeons. He sets out and lone-wolf's it for the most part. Asuna wants him to join a guild and put his skills to use, but he isn't exactly good with groups.

Is Kirito the Protagonist? At first glance, it would seem like the BBEG is the protagonist, but since the conflict that he creates is SO flimsy, it's largely irrelevant to the story. Kirito isn't trying to figure out how to get people to escape from the Nervegear, or uncover the deep dark secrets of why Kiba decided to part-time in Genocide, so really, The BBEG is a Deuteragonist. He can't be argued with and he dictates the rules of the conflict.

However...

If BBEG is the series main Dueteragonist, then Kirito is the series Main Protagonist and Antagonist. This isn't looking good for Kirito.

Is Kirito a Neutagonisnt? Neutagonists are pretty abundant in the series, aside from the whole "Switching Sides" thing. Nearly everyone Kirito meets helps him along his path to beating the game...

However...

They don't really help him at all. Kirito doesn't train for duel-wielding from the blacksmith girl, she just makes a sword for him. A sword that Kirito had to harvest the materials for. While she does have to be present for the Mats to spawn, she doesn't actually do anything that has any pressing impact on the plot. Asuna is probably the closest to a Neutagonist that Kirito has, but since they never actually discuss strategies or tactics or ways to improve their combat skills in a conflict that only measures combat skills, Asuna is just implied to help him off camera. Which is a problem, because Kirito is the one that switches from helping or not helping Asuna's guild back and forth and HIS Pressence dictates which side wins.

So... Kirito is a Neutagonist/Protagonist/Antagonist...

Is Kirito a Deuteragonist? Well, we've already established that the BBEG is the Deuteragonist, right? I mean, Kirito has enough on his plate, he doesn't need to dictate the conflict's rules too...

However...

This is exactly what Kirito does. When the black cat's die, it's his fault. When the raid is going against the Gleam Eyes, he lets everyone know that they're going to fail. When no one is able to pick up on Heathcliff being the BBEG in disguise, Kirito pops the illusion. He is the single greatest source of exposition the show has to offer, and no one can argue against him because he is a beta-tester. The conflict between BBEG and Kirito is really just a matter of who has more authority over the game: The Player or The Developer. Hell, he even saves UI from being deleted. He is almost a literal god of the world of Aincrad.

So, Kirito is the Protagonist/Antagonist/Neutagonist/Deuteragonist But at least Kirito isn't the Nontagonist, right?... Right!?

Kirito is also the Nontagonist. The girls in his harem are something expected of an anime, but their role in the conflict is literally something for Kirito to fight on behalf of. Blacksmith Girl isn't in the final raid, Loli isn't in the final fight either, and the strongest Nontagonists are already dead. Even Asuna, who could have a claim as a nontagonist does nothing but die for Kirito, and it all comes down to making us care about what Kirito is fighting through. But isn't that the point of a nontagonist? To give emotional stakes in the fight? If the Villian isn't threatening them personally, Their lives being on the line is meaningless. If, it turns out, Loli has a special skill that could resurrect low level players, and Laughing Coffin knew that if she dies, no one would be able to learn that skill and they were seeking her out to kill her, she would be a plot device that gives emotional weight to the story Because she is important, but she can't compete against Laughing Coffin, herself. Then she would be a Nontagonist. Laughing Coffin must be stopped, or he will go after Loli whenever she is vulnerable.

As it stands, the Harem are just heart strings to pluck, but they aren't even their own heart strings - They are Kirito's Heart strings. Kirito wants to keep everyone safe. They aren't important to the story overall, only to add to Kirito's personal emotional baggage.

So Kirito is a One-Man 5 Man Band; He is the Hero (Protagonist), Lancer (Antagonist), Strong Guy (Neutagonist), Smart Guy (Deuteragonist), Chick (Nontagonist).

In short, he is a Mary Sue. Top to bottom, do not pass go, do not collect 200 gold, Thank you for playing.

Pauly
2018-11-21, 07:27 PM
I wouldn’t use a d20 system.

I would want a system where the fight is about declaring what type of guard you’re using and your attack/defense from that guard. The heart of the appeal of SAO isn’t captured by rolling for attack and damage in a d20 system. The appeal is knowing which type of attack or defence to use.

I remember playing a long time ago a system (whose name I forget) based on late Renaissance/early Age of Enlightenment Europe - three musketeers, cyrano de bergarac, scaramouch etc. The combat system was declare the guard the attack/parry then riposte/parry and the success of the attack or parry depending on the guard and school of fencing you studied. Landing a hit resulted in light wounds that cumulatively slowed you down, heavy wounds that gave you one or two rounds of action before you collapsed or outright disabling/killing wounds.

That style of game would do more to capture SAO’s emphasis on swordplay than any d20 I could imagine.

Edit: Modern games that seem to capture this type of action are Honor+Intrigue and/or Barbarians of Lemuria
H+I has the more swashbuckling/cinematic swordplay. BoL has the fantasy setting. Since they are different evolutions of the same game mechanics it shouldn’t be hard mash them together for a SoA game.

Son of A Lich!
2018-11-21, 08:13 PM
I wouldn’t use a d20 system.

I would want a system where the fight is about declaring what type of guard you’re using and your attack/defense from that guard. The heart of the appeal of SAO isn’t captured by rolling for attack and damage in a d20 system. The appeal is knowing which type of attack or defence to use.

I remember playing a long time ago a system (whose name I forget) based on late Renaissance/early Age of Enlightenment Europe - three musketeers, cyrano de bergarac, scaramouch etc. The combat system was declare the guard the attack/parry then riposte/parry and the success of the attack or parry depending on the guard and school of fencing you studied. Landing a hit resulted in light wounds that cumulatively slowed you down, heavy wounds that gave you one or two rounds of action before you collapsed or outright disabling/killing wounds.

That style of game would do more to capture SAO’s emphasis on swordplay than any d20 I could imagine.

I probably should mention that I use 3d6 instead of the d20.

With a bell curve, +1 to a roll is much more important but starts to create diminishing returns. With all-out attack the ilk of advantages from M&Ms, it allows you to focus on defense or toughness more so then offense if the character is attacking a boss with low dodge but high attack power.

Then, I would focus on having "Stances" that allow a player to spend 1 point to change up how offensive or defensive they are and what they can do to help allies. Deflect 6 (Affects others, area [Cloud]) can be a good defensive move to help defend players around them and encourage tanking (For example), while a different stance could have higher speed and a strike with Penetrating to allow for more DPS focus builds.

Then you just need to make 'Death' the last tier of an attack's damage to make the game lethal as the show, and the boss has to chip damage through area attacks and minions to start threatening Death.

Much easier when the action economy starts favoring the boss room. You can also make stage monsters this way; create three (Or more) "Stances" for the boss and give them themed attack and damage outputs to force the players to change their tactics. A Boss with centered AOE attack that is penetrating makes Hit and Run tactics more important, for example. Limit the bosses stance change to once per fight, and throw in a full heal, and you have a three-staged boss fight.

And one that encourages tactics and strategy to overcome.

Pauly
2018-11-22, 03:07 AM
I probably should mention that I use 3d6 instead of the d20.

With a bell curve, +1 to a roll is much more important but starts to create diminishing returns. With all-out attack the ilk of advantages from M&Ms, it allows you to focus on defense or toughness more so then offense if the character is attacking a boss with low dodge but high attack power.

Then, I would focus on having "Stances" that allow a player to spend 1 point to change up how offensive or defensive they are and what they can do to help allies. Deflect 6 (Affects others, area [Cloud]) can be a good defensive move to help defend players around them and encourage tanking (For example), while a different stance could have higher speed and a strike with Penetrating to allow for more DPS focus builds.

Then you just need to make 'Death' the last tier of an attack's damage to make the game lethal as the show, and the boss has to chip damage through area attacks and minions to start threatening Death.

Much easier when the action economy starts favoring the boss room. You can also make stage monsters this way; create three (Or more) "Stances" for the boss and give them themed attack and damage outputs to force the players to change their tactics. A Boss with centered AOE attack that is penetrating makes Hit and Run tactics more important, for example. Limit the bosses stance change to once per fight, and throw in a full heal, and you have a three-staged boss fight.

And one that encourages tactics and strategy to overcome.

The H+I and BoL do what you’re saying but on 2d6, not 3d6.
BoL has a ree download for old editions here
https://barbariansoflemuria.webs.com/earlier-editions
The ‘alchemisy’ class allows for crafting of weapons/equipment.

There’s no free .pdf of H+I but the weapon sheet
https://barbariansoflemuria.webs.com/earlier-editions

And actions
https://www.scribd.com/document/192573711/Honor-Intrigue-Quick-Combat-Spreadsheet
Shows that it can handle different sword types and fighting schools

Kazethefox
2018-11-23, 04:38 AM
I would suggest Riddle of Steel. It is VERY detailed in the differences in fighting styles for weapons, and deadly enough that you might have to think about giving your players a little more durability from critical hits (if you'd like). It gives a big advantage to players who fight smart and use tactics rather than throwing all their dice into one big swing. No matter how tough your character is, an unblocked major attack can take them down.

The magic system is so powerful you will likely have to just make the magic items on your own if you go that route though. And probably speed up out of combat healing from 'weeks out of action' to minutes.

It's not perfect, but the combat will be very fun if you go that route.