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View Full Version : Roleplaying How to realistically play a schizophrenic shaman (NOT multiple personality disorder)



rbalzer
2015-10-29, 08:30 PM
Essentially I'm asking for roleplaying advice, read my supplemental info below if you please.

I've been developing a shaman character for a while now, and recently realized he should be at least mildly schizophrenic. Somebody pointed out to me today that traditional tribal shamans were likely often schizophrenics. EG: schizophrenics used to be revered for their esoteric wisdom/healing ability instead of being treated like criminals as they are in the modern world.

I mean I know a half decent amount about schizophrenia, but it would be excellent if someone who has firsthand experience with schizophrenics could chime in here. They seem to often be focused on things nobody else can perceive, they also seem to have grand delusions. Sometimes these delusions are hyper-paranoid.

Any advice on how to role-play this? Especially in a way that is not annoying to the other players or the DM. I don't want to focus the whole game on my characters delusions, I think it would make more sense if I muttered crazyness to myself, kept it mostly inside. Yet the delusions are my power, they are somehow connected to the real world. It would be up to the DM to decide how this works I suppose.

But how to keep this fresh over time? How to come up with meaningful crazyness. How to come up with realistic crazyness. Its a very challenging premise. One worth tackling though. I need to read more about shamanism too..

halfeye
2015-10-29, 08:43 PM
Essentially I'm asking for roleplaying advice, read my supplemental info below if you please.

I've been developing a shaman character for a while now, and recently realized he should be at least mildly schizophrenic. Somebody pointed out to me today that traditional tribal shamans were likely often schizophrenics. EG: schizophrenics used to be revered for their esoteric wisdom/healing ability instead of being treated like criminals as they are in the modern world.

I mean I know a half decent amount about schizophrenia, but it would be excellent if someone who has firsthand experience with schizophrenics could chime in here. They seem to often be focused on things nobody else can perceive, they also seem to have grand delusions. Sometimes these delusions are hyper-paranoid.

Any advice on how to role-play this? Especially in a way that is not annoying to the other players or the DM. I don't want to focus the whole game on my characters delusions, I think it would make more sense if I muttered crazyness to myself, kept it mostly inside. Yet the delusions are my power, they are somehow connected to the real world. It would be up to the DM to decide how this works I suppose.

But how to keep this fresh over time? How to come up with meaningful crazyness. How to come up with realistic crazyness. Its a very challenging premise. One worth tackling though. I need to read more about shamanism too..
I would say don't do it.

The slide from acting to being is said to be subtle, it's not a place you want to end up.

rbalzer
2015-10-29, 08:50 PM
It would sure be interesting to find a legitimate tinge of crazy within myself. I'm not afraid of the unconscious mind

Florian
2015-10-29, 08:50 PM
Hm. I actually do know a person with this kind of schizophrenia (Daughter of a good friend of mine) and as far as I can see it, it is not possible to pull that off without pissing of your fellow gamers. This particular mental disorder is harsh on the victim as well as on any person to interact with the victim, so better drop that plan and focus on something more playable.

goto124
2015-10-29, 09:11 PM
Or have a solo campaign :smalltongue:

rbalzer
2015-10-29, 09:39 PM
Yeah I am a fan of solo campaigns. Though I usually called it writing short stories with my D&D character.

I'm not so sure that this wouldn't work in normal group play though. I'm in a play by post right now with a guy playing a character pretty similar to what I'm picturing and it works fine.

I'm thinking a somewhat mild disorder here. Not off the walls bonkers..

Has no one in your campaigns ever played a crazy character? no mental disorders? I can think of a couple.

goto124
2015-10-29, 09:54 PM
I have characters that go off their own brand of logic. They're from a computer game that I played a lot, so I understood their way of thinking rather well.

It helps to have some sort of 'alternate logic' to follow.

Florian
2015-10-30, 02:53 AM
Has no one in your campaigns ever played a crazy character? no mental disorders? I can think of a couple.

Sure. Especially malkavians in Vampire.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-30, 04:28 AM
If you kept your schizophrenia to in-character scenes and didn't dwell on them too long, it could be interesting. The problem is, schizophrenia refers to such a large number of mental conditions it really depends on which one you pick.

Mastikator
2015-10-30, 05:28 AM
Sulik from Fallout 2 is a workable option. He kept the bones of... people(?) as piercings in his face and claimed that it let him hear their spirits speak to him. Sometimes they gave useful advice.

It's gonna have to be the mildest schizophrenia possible for the character to even have the chance to function since schizo is extremely debilitating. Maybe the character only ever gets delusions when he focuses and only sometimes hear voices in his head.

Seto
2015-10-30, 06:47 AM
Maybe use stuff from Harry Potter's Luna Lovegood ? I don't think it's a very realistic case, admittedly, but still useful. She believes in a lot of out-there theories (conspiracy or otherwise), is convinced of the existence of creatures that everybody else dismisses as ludicrous, asks weird questions and has weird personal rituals in relation to these creatures (like wearing a special helmet to chase Wrackspurts from your mind - a shamanic equivalent could be a mask). Despite all this, she's a mostly functional witch, strangely insightful, and helps a lot by thinking outside the box.

Joe the Rat
2015-10-30, 08:16 AM
(disclaimer: I'm about 15 years past study on this, and went the other direction, so take this with a grain of out-of-date salt).
I'd play with the positives over the negatives - as in symptom types.

Your positives are your delusions and hallucinations - thinking things are there that aren't, seeing things nobody else can see, finding patterns that must be important (to you), and quite often paranoia. IIRC, inappropriate affect - too much - goes here. Laughing at tragedy, anger at kindness, over-reacting to events and such. You probably also mutter to yourself (or your spirits) when not engaged in other activities. But you are in fantasy land. While what you see (or think) might not be really there, they may actually mean something. Hints at plot relevance, or magic at work. Your divinations may incorporate these. Work with your DM on this.

Strange rituals to drive back the demons on the edge of your mind can also be incorporated here, but for balance make it quirky rather than breaking. If others can't distinguish between what's a crazy behavior and what's shaman behavior, you're in the right ballpark.

A Beautiful Mind might be a good place to go for inspiration, particularly if the character is unaware. And how to deal with them if you decide that he is aware.

Negative symptoms - blunt affect, lack of reaction, lack of drive - are less fun to roleplay, and less likely to lead one to adventure. But it's also more of a category lump-in (there's an entirely different set of brain morphologies associated), and may or may not be caused by some antipsychotics.

wumpus
2015-10-30, 10:45 AM
Might I suggest sticking to more fantastic/historical/mythical definitions of mental illness?

How about playing a character either possessed or dealing with *literal* internal demons? As the other answers point out, realistic depictions of schizophrenia aren't going to be fun or healthy.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-30, 11:30 AM
Typically if anyone tries to do something in a fantasy setting because it's 'historically accurate' I generally urge them not to for a variety of reasons.

I would start by asking your group their comfort levels with such a topic. I've known people able to hide such disorders, and I have doubts that many people with such would be amused by this character.

Eldan
2015-10-30, 12:04 PM
You might get more help with this topic if you didn't use terms like "off the walls bonkers" to describe us.

Thrudd
2015-10-30, 12:41 PM
My sister in law with this condition often refers to conversations that never happened with people that don't exist. She makes up her own words for things, or uses words incorrectly. She refers to things "the police" told her, or "her friend" or "the doctor". For instance, often times she seems to try to disguise her own opinion or thoughts as something one of these "people" told her. For instance, "the doctor" told her that smoking is healthy for her, because if she stops her lungs will fill up with fluid.

For a shaman, obviously the voices are spirits. And when your character has an opinion or an idea, you might frame it as something a spirit told you. Instead of saying "I think we should go left", they might say "Owl spirit showed me that we need to go left."

You also may have a couple odd behaviors or rituals which are also things a spirit told you to do. Such as casting bones whenever you want the answer to a question: of course you're the only one that can interpret the bones, and they always say whatever you were thinking anyway. But you are convinced that they represent the will of the spirits. If the spirits turn out to be wrong, blame it on the spirits or ignore people's complaints. "Your spirits were wrong, this path was dangerous!"...reply: "well, that's what they said." and then be quiet and refuse to respond to further criticism.

Amazon
2015-10-30, 04:19 PM
Hear voices.

They can appear to be friendly and advise you.
Or they can be hurtful and terrible
Talk to this voices out loud when nobody is talking to you.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-30, 06:02 PM
I've only ever had an extended conversation with someone who obviously had some degree of schizophrenia once but here's what I observed:

-Talks incessantly almost without pausing. Even if asking you a direct question, doesn't wait for an answer but moves directly on as if you gave one. The sheer length and speed at which this person was able to keep speaking was literally somewhat frightening to experience. A normal person could not do that. This person obviously didn't perceive themselves as speaking in any abnormal fashion or perceive any discomfort they caused.

-Train of thought is totally opaque. Persons with schizophrenia will make leaps of logic that literally do not make sense, not even the kind of "crazy logic" you see in Alice in Wonderland. A sentence will end with no causal connection to its first clause. It virtually is word salad.

-Interest in others is almost completely nonexistent, or only inasmuch as others can be made to listen. A schizophrenic person may not notice or not care if you simply walk away from them. Or they may follow you evidently oblivious to the fact that you are trying to get away with them. They seem literally unable to empathize with other persons and exist in a world where their subjective experience is so overwhelming it crowds everything else out.

It would be basically impossible to seriously roleplay someone with that kind of mental illness or create a character who could function in a group of characters and pursue goals (unless the character is taking some kind of medication or otherwise suppressing it). So I don't think "realism" should be your goal. You could take some of the basic ideas to create a character with certain creepy tendencies; I'd suggest

-Doesn't differentiate between other party members. For example, you might occasionally suggest the Rogue cast a spell or ask who the wizard's familiar belongs to.

-If your character has recurring delusions, treat them as nothing to get excited about. "Oh don't mind the noise," you might say during a pause in the action, "that's only the little boy who follows me around. He's got nowhere to go."

-Offer muddled and constantly changing explanations for your delusions. You might calmly explain that the little boy is just a lost ghost, then later that he is a devil sent to make a contract with you.

-Think out loud and make your thoughts largely banal and rambling. "They couldn't see us now if we had some trees here. Trees are very pretty in Spring, but in Winter too. Keep a few pine-needles under your nose for the smell sometimes."

-Insist on a few rituals or behaviors. For example, never ever be the first person to go through a door, and always insist that someone proceed you. Keep a special pouch of random herbs and salt and sprinkle it over everything you eat no matter what. You cannot sleep except on the ground and only with a cloth over your face (so the bugs don't crawl in your mouth!) etc. etc.

Just remember not to overdo things so that it becomes annoying to your fellow players. They don't need to be reminded you are doing one of your quirky rituals every single time. A little bit can go a long way!

Deffers
2015-10-30, 09:41 PM
Piedmon's got some good ones. Schizophrenic people who deal with the paranoid side of things more than the dissociative ones are also really scary. Like, will ask you for advice one day and then tell you a bunch of time to stop it, you know what you did, getting more desperate and angry the next. Might approach other people who they believe are in on it too. When they tend more highly towards paranoia, they tend to also be more "lucid," for lack of a better term-- they get a little less word-salady. Example: if you've got a buddy who's a programmer, and they've got you as part of their mythos, they might become convinced your programmer friend is cyber-stalking them. That... it makes sense in one way, even if there's the motivation to initiate what you or I would recognize as a really drastic thing is kind of ephemeral. Especially when programmer buddy suddenly gets a screed out of nowhere.

Another thing: schizophrenic people believe the things they do with significant conviction. You're not going to tell whether or not what they're saying is real based on whether they sound like they're acting or whether or not they're doubtful about what is real (unless they're in the process of recognizing their illness-- incidentally when you can get a lot of scary behavior).

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-30, 10:02 PM
First off I recommend you do not so it. It is difficult to understand if have never been through it. Secondly I recommend you don't do it; it may seem like a neat idea but thought disorders can be a nightmarish experience and turning it into an RP goal can easily trivialize what people go through.

Still want to proceed? Here some advice:
The positive-negative advice is the best in this thread since it is the only advice that accurately and solidly touches upon the spectrum of symptoms that schizophrenia can contain.
Paranoia is the easiest symptom to work with but remember it is "kooky crazy scared." The paranoia associated with schizophrenia and similar illnesses is a real, primal, fear. I remember turning on all the lights in the house and keeping the TV in my room so the people hiding in the dark could not see me.
Delusions are unshakeable but can be transient. That previous mentioned people in the dark was a paranoid delusion and it eventually ended right before I was hospitalized again.
Schizophrenia can present with mood symptoms, although it is not always schizoaffective or comorbid mood disorders. Being in that situation can just be upsetting.
Depending on how long you have had your symptoms a personality disorder is possible highly likely. Just keep that in mind.

Don't touch negative symptoms. People tend to ignore them because they are not "flashy" but they really are the worst symptoms to have. When I have breakthrough negative symptoms (either depression or thought disturbances) honestly the only think I really think about is how nice it would be to be dead, for it to be over, assuming I can think at all. They are also probably the worst to witness, watching someone you care about just die on the inside and withdraw from the world.

Tip: if someone confuses schizophrenia for the non-existant DID (formerly MPP) they are not the most trustworthy source of information and should probably be disregarded on this front.

Hawkstar
2015-10-31, 12:35 AM
In the land of the blind, is the one-eyed man truly king? Or is he a freak to be dismissed and distrusted, paranoid and insane for believing things that do not exist and he claims to be able to see?

rbalzer
2015-10-31, 08:01 PM
Sulik from Fallout 2 is a workable option. He kept the bones of... people(?) as piercings in his face and claimed that it let him hear their spirits speak to him. Sometimes they gave useful advice.

It's gonna have to be the mildest schizophrenia possible for the character to even have the chance to function since schizo is extremely debilitating. Maybe the character only ever gets delusions when he focuses and only sometimes hear voices in his head.

this was a particularly helpful response. I only played fallout 2 for a tiny bit. Are you talking about the shaman in the village you start in? Because even my short interaction with him permanently changed how I thought about shamans.

Sounds like I should play that game again? I don't know why I stopped. Loved fallout 1, 3, and NV.

rbalzer
2015-10-31, 08:03 PM
Maybe use stuff from Harry Potter's Luna Lovegood ? I don't think it's a very realistic case, admittedly, but still useful. She believes in a lot of out-there theories (conspiracy or otherwise), is convinced of the existence of creatures that everybody else dismisses as ludicrous, asks weird questions and has weird personal rituals in relation to these creatures (like wearing a special helmet to chase Wrackspurts from your mind - a shamanic equivalent could be a mask). Despite all this, she's a mostly functional witch, strangely insightful, and helps a lot by thinking outside the box.

very cool! its been a long time. Do you know if I would be better off watching a particular movie in the series or reading a particular book?

My father has that whole series around...somewhere..

rbalzer
2015-10-31, 08:29 PM
(disclaimer: I'm about 15 years past study on this, and went the other direction, so take this with a grain of out-of-date salt).
I'd play with the positives over the negatives - as in symptom types.

Your positives are your delusions and hallucinations - thinking things are there that aren't, seeing things nobody else can see, finding patterns that must be important (to you), and quite often paranoia. IIRC, inappropriate affect - too much - goes here. Laughing at tragedy, anger at kindness, over-reacting to events and such. You probably also mutter to yourself (or your spirits) when not engaged in other activities. But you are in fantasy land. While what you see (or think) might not be really there, they may actually mean something. Hints at plot relevance, or magic at work. Your divinations may incorporate these. Work with your DM on this.

Strange rituals to drive back the demons on the edge of your mind can also be incorporated here, but for balance make it quirky rather than breaking. If others can't distinguish between what's a crazy behavior and what's shaman behavior, you're in the right ballpark.

A Beautiful Mind might be a good place to go for inspiration, particularly if the character is unaware. And how to deal with them if you decide that he is aware.

Negative symptoms - blunt affect, lack of reaction, lack of drive - are less fun to roleplay, and less likely to lead one to adventure. But it's also more of a category lump-in (there's an entirely different set of brain morphologies associated), and may or may not be caused by some antipsychotics.
wow the quality of answers just keeps improving! Thank you so much. I'm going to write "If others can't distinguish between what's a crazy behavior and what's shaman behavior, you're in the right ballpark," right on my character sheet rough draft.

I'm really excited, this character is coming together in my head. Is A Beautiful Mind a movie?

rbalzer
2015-10-31, 08:34 PM
You might get more help with this topic if you didn't use terms like "off the walls bonkers" to describe us.

sorry man. Was just trying to get my point across. I have genuine respect for people with mental disorders. Been in a mental hospital for a while myself.

Seto
2015-11-01, 04:57 AM
very cool! its been a long time. Do you know if I would be better off watching a particular movie in the series or reading a particular book?

My father has that whole series around...somewhere..

I'm not very good with the movies. As for the books : she's first introduced in volume 5, so no point in reading the first four. I'd say volume 5 features her most prominently, although in volume 7 you see her father and get some more insight into the family's beliefs.

EDIT : I looked through the books again. More precise references : Chapter 10 in book 5 ("Luna Lovegood") and chapter 20 in book 7 ("Xenophilius Lovegood"). That'll save you time. But if you have time, might as well reread everything ;)

Braininthejar2
2015-11-01, 08:15 AM
Now, this topic is a rare find.

I gamemaster old World Of Darkness, so roleplaying insane people kind of comes with the territory (Malkavians and all. I actually have a Malkavian player in my group now, though she's gone with narcisstic + random hallucinations she can't tell apart from her extra sensory perception)

This is great help to me.

I'm intrigued by the comment on DID not being real. I've heard that before, but... if one can convince himself of a disorder to the point of showing symptoms, doesn't it make the disorder functionally real?

(I avoid DID in my games, but mostly because it is horribly cliche)

Florian
2015-11-01, 08:27 AM
@Braininthejar2:

The comment is not about DID not being real, but not being a part of schizophrenia. One doesn't lead to the other and they're also not really related.

To clarify that a bit: Certain forms of schizophrenia and advanced cases of dementia, especially alzheimers, have two things in common:
- Your perception of reality is affected both ways, how you perceive it and how you see yourself interacting with it.
(Besides talking about the usual illusions you also suffer from delusions)
- "Blocked thoughts" are quite common. No matter what you try, you can't do it when it happens.

No, to an outside observer there may be significant changes in apparent personality and behaviour, but in essence "you" stay "you"

Braininthejar2
2015-11-01, 04:30 PM
@Braininthejar2:

The comment is not about DID not being real, but not being a part of schizophrenia. One doesn't lead to the other and they're also not really related.

To clarify that a bit: Certain forms of schizophrenia and advanced cases of dementia, especially alzheimers, have two things in common:
- Your perception of reality is affected both ways, how you perceive it and how you see yourself interacting with it.
(Besides talking about the usual illusions you also suffer from delusions)
- "Blocked thoughts" are quite common. No matter what you try, you can't do it when it happens.

No, to an outside observer there may be significant changes in apparent personality and behaviour, but in essence "you" stay "you"

The comment did refer to it as "non-existent".

One interpretation of the "A Strange case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" book is that there was never a Mr Hyde - the formula only provided a different face, providing a handy excuse, and human nature did the rest.

Bulhakov
2015-11-01, 06:14 PM
For "fun" schizophrenia just go with "voices" - spirits talk to you and it's up to you to share what they say and/or follow their advice.
A great example would be the TV show Wanderfalls (just watch the trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8JGcy1mrXU)

For more realistic schizophrenia - think of ideas getting so stuck in your head, you'll completely disregard any facts, arguments or logic that counters them, even endangering yourself or others. I have a distant aunt with diagnosed paranoid schizophrenia - she is convinced her son in law is out to get her - she will not touch any food he might have been near, and after finding out he helped renovate her apartment while she was away, she ripped out the cable TV wires from along her living-room wall with her bare hands because she could hear them "hum and try to reprogram her brain".

rbalzer
2015-11-02, 11:45 AM
I'm not very good with the movies. As for the books : she's first introduced in volume 5, so no point in reading the first four. I'd say volume 5 features her most prominently, although in volume 7 you see her father and get some more insight into the family's beliefs.

EDIT : I looked through the books again. More precise references : Chapter 10 in book 5 ("Luna Lovegood") and chapter 20 in book 7 ("Xenophilius Lovegood"). That'll save you time. But if you have time, might as well reread everything ;)

I really appreciate you getting the chapter numbers and everything! Especially because, no offense, I don't want to have to read any more harry potter than I need to.

Florian
2015-11-02, 01:12 PM
@Braininthejar2:

I've read that comment. I'm pretty confident it has other meaning as it was phrased, namely being about the missconception that DID is considered part of Schizophrenia.

On a lighter note, @topic and delusions: Do act like you participate in a 3,5E RAW vs. RAI discussion concerning stuff that happens in play.

rbalzer
2015-11-03, 01:13 PM
check out this incredibly interesting link, especially those of you who have been through some sort of psychosis. (I enjoyed the text on the page more than the video)

rbalzer
2015-11-03, 01:14 PM
i have to make 2 more posts to be able to post the link so bear with me here

rbalzer
2015-11-03, 01:18 PM
http://beyondmeds.com/2014/06/03/red-book-dialogue/

again, the text below the video is more relevant than the video

rbalzer
2015-11-06, 01:08 PM
Was co-DM'ing a short PVP match the other night so I got to practice these ideas while playing an NPC. Gotta say I lovvve the flavor

One of my players was a puppeteer (brain slug) so the guy started hearing a new voice in his head