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tim01300
2015-10-30, 05:23 AM
So a player died and has rolled a druid and now combat is just flooded with animals. Every turn he summons more animals regardless if they are needed. Just swamping monsters. I understand it's kinda the druid's thing, but I need a way to counter it besides the circle of corrupt summoning. He keeps creating so many animals that the rest of the party can't get in to fight the monsters and and are afraid to cast area of effect spells because they don't want to hit the animals. Every Combat has slowed to a painful crawl. I have talked to him out of game about it and he is having so much fun he doesn't really care, "this is what druids do".

So any ideas how to deal with noahs ark every combat? (party is level 12ish)

eggynack
2015-10-30, 05:39 AM
Well, magic circle against whatever could do the job pretty well, assuming you're determined to do this in an in-game fashion. It's a good spell in situations that don't directly involve summoned creatures, so it's plausible that it'd pop up sometimes. I'm not entirely convinced that this is the kinda problem that calls for an in-game solution though. Might be worth trying to set some kinda limit on the ability, like a certain number of summons per encounter, such that things don't get bogged down. You don't necessarily want to cut him off of his preferred mode of operation entirely, but if things are getting sufficiently ridiculous you might need something external to keep things running.

nedz
2015-10-30, 05:50 AM
I would normally suggest talking to the player: but you've done that already.

Peer pressure might work: basically you stand back whilst the rest of the players complain about this.

Spore
2015-10-30, 06:02 AM
I have two proposals depending on how much you want and can to tick off the other players.

1) Have an NPC summoner do exactly the same and ask him after three hours of "dire rat vs. fiendish dire rat" how he likes the state of the game now. On the downside, your group might hate you now.

2) Make the story arc miniboss into a Fireball slinging blaster sorcerer. Preferrably with a distaste of nature, scrying and teleport to pinpoint the exact place of the group and a love for killing small druid critter. Honestly, any BBEG of a larger caliber can employ mercenaries specifically tailored to counter the player's strengths.

Summoning a lot of weak animals is mechanically weak. Just think about the average 5th level adventuring group that isn't phased by a horde of 30 1st level NPCs anymore.

Or the third, less fun, but probably most mature response:

Give the players a turn limit. Or an ingame limitations on how many creatures can be summoned and controlled at any one time. If he cannot control that many DUMB animals (Int 2 isn't exactly screaming anything else than swarm tactics) then you control the summons he hasn't issued orders to. You might even blow up his actions because controlling 3-5 creatures on the battlefield simply doesn't allow for further spells or movement.

Bullet06320
2015-10-30, 06:13 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
this shuts summoners down

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm
depending on what he's summoning

counter spelling is also a thing, SNA is a full round action, so plenty of time for enemy caster to attempt to counter

there's always book throwing since you've already talked to him

Bronk
2015-10-30, 06:18 AM
The druid is just summoning animals though? What level is everyone at? If they're spamming weak low level animals, one decent area of affect spell would take most of them out as well.

Also if the caster is attacked midway through casting, that'll force a concentration check...

Jack_Simth
2015-10-30, 06:19 AM
So a player died and has rolled a druid and now combat is just flooded with animals. Every turn he summons more animals regardless if they are needed. Just swamping monsters. I understand it's kinda the druid's thing, but I need a way to counter it besides the circle of corrupt summoning. He keeps creating so many animals that the rest of the party can't get in to fight the monsters and and are afraid to cast area of effect spells because they don't want to hit the animals. Every Combat has slowed to a painful crawl. I have talked to him out of game about it and he is having so much fun he doesn't really care, "this is what druids do".

So any ideas how to deal with noahs ark every combat? (party is level 12ish)

1) As noted: Protection From Evil will do. If you check the text of Protection From Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm), the line is " Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature."
Most animals are neutral, it's a 1st level spell, and the duration is long enough that it'll last the entire battle from level 1. Magic Circle Against Evil is 3rd, and covers an area.

2) Why are the party members worried about blasting the summons? They're rounds/level, so they won't be around for the next battle. They're intended as disposable minions. If the Druid's putting too many of them in... the Wizard should just Fireball them all.

3) By default, Summon Nature's Ally is a 1-round casting time, not a full-round casting time. Interrupt the spell with direct damage. Let's assume the Druid is the first in the party to go in the initiative (Improved Init, lucky dice, in a form that has a high Dex), and that the enemies are last. So rounds 1 and 2 go something like:
1: Druid begins casting. Rogue delays. Fighter Charges. Rogue flanks and attacks once. Wizard zaps. Enemies go (if they still can).
2: Druid finishes casting, and starts a new spell, summon does something. Fighter full attacks with flanking. Rogue full attacks with flanking. Wizard zaps. Enemies go (if they still can).
- If the Druid is hurt at any point before the next turn, it's concentration check, DC 10 + damage dealt + Spell level or lose the spell. At 12th, that's... what, 15 ranks, +6 Con = +21 for the Concentration modifier? Druid probably has a sub-par Reflex save. A simple CL 10 Fireball is liable to do 35 damage, and if the Druid is casting, say, Summon Nature's Ally VI, that means a DC 51 Concentration check. Have fun rolling a 30 on your d20 (skill checks do not have the nat-20 = auto success clause by default). Even if the Druid saves and only takes half that (17 damage), it's still DC 33, and the Druid with a +21 Concentration check still needs a 12 to pass (45%).

4) It's a rounds/level spell. Try harrying tactics (enemies take a few long shots, retreat, wait a few minutes, and repeat). The Druid will go through slots FAST.

molten_dragon
2015-10-30, 06:32 AM
So a player died and has rolled a druid and now combat is just flooded with animals. Every turn he summons more animals regardless if they are needed. Just swamping monsters. I understand it's kinda the druid's thing, but I need a way to counter it besides the circle of corrupt summoning. He keeps creating so many animals that the rest of the party can't get in to fight the monsters and and are afraid to cast area of effect spells because they don't want to hit the animals. Every Combat has slowed to a painful crawl. I have talked to him out of game about it and he is having so much fun he doesn't really care, "this is what druids do".

So any ideas how to deal with noahs ark every combat? (party is level 12ish)

You need to talk to him out of game again and be a little bit firmer this time. Something along the lines of:

The way you're playing is making the game less fun for everyone else. You need to stop summoning so many animals, or I'm going to have to ban summoning spells.

And if he still doesn't stop, do exactly what you told him you would. Ban summoning altogether, or limit him to only one spell per combat or something.

This is an out of game problem, it needs to be handled out of game.

sleepyphoenixx
2015-10-30, 06:51 AM
He'd probably listen more if the complaints came from your other players instead of the DM.
"You're ruining our fun" has a lot more impact, because chances are he's interpreting your complaints as "you're so OP you're winning the game, so i have to nerf you".

I've had players with that mindset before, and they won't stop as long as they think they're "winning" against the DM or until you take drastic measures that'll likely break up your group.
I may be wrong with that interpretation because i don't have much to base it on, but it's something to consider at least.

Worst case he's the kind of player who doesn't care if he ruins your or your groups fun as long as he enjoys himself, but lets hope for your sake that he's not because all you can do with players like that is kick them, which always involves a lot of drama.


If you want to solve it ingame just have your monsters use the area version of (Greater) Dispel Magic. When all his monsters vanish from a single spell maybe he'll consider a bit of variety.
You can also have encounters in narrow corridors and similar environments where there's no room to summon, especially not higher level summons because they tend to be big.
Sure, druids are good at summoning, but treating them like a one trick pony is very sad. If he won't explore his options on his own you'll just have to force his hand.

Quertus
2015-10-30, 07:15 AM
As already mentioned, talking to the player is a good plan. Having the other players talk to the player may be a better plan.

If the player really believes that this is his character's schtick, then having the DM suddenly change the world / what the party encounters to nerf his schtick can't possibly go well. What if he really enjoys the summoning duel suggested above!

If you're trying to solve this in game... if I'm reading you correctly, the issue is, "he floods the combat with creatures, which grinds combat to a crawl, which isn't fun for the other players". In that case, the solution is to speed up combat. Have a program that does all of the dice rolling for the critters. I've written several specific to the games I've been in; I'm sure there must be something available online that can meet your needs. Or, since it sounds like his creatures are fairy negligible, pre-calculate the average damage the summoned creatures can be expected to deal. Several versions of D&D have systems for this. If the group doesn't use a battle map, just have the monsters expend X attacks to destroy Y of the summoned creatures in a turn (possibly use this even if you do use a map).

If he tends to summon too many whether they are needed or not, well, that's a player and/or character tactics issue, and not one you need to solve. But solving it could be to your benefit, so you could introduce an NPC summoner who could comment on this, try to show him a better way, etc, if you really wanted to. Including a few enemy creatures with AoEs (the dreaded pyro/cryo hydra is a great example) when the NPC summoner is available to comment on tactics could be good to encourage him to try new tactics with his druid. Or, the NPC might not be a summoner, just a skilled tactician who understands how to utilize a summoner (or knows how to utilize the non-summoner portion of being a druid). Whatever would be fun for you and the group, and likely to make an impact on the PC / his player. But if he's already ignored you once, your style of communication might not be able to get through to him. Are there any PCs who could fill this role successfully?

Although I cautioned against changing the world... there are a few things you could do. If he uses summoned monsters because druids can convert their spells to summon spells, and it's just his way of getting rid of spells he can't use, give him the ability to / drop in an item that lets him convert his spells to something you and your group find less obnoxious. Or, if resources aren't a huge issue for the rest of the party, you could always send the party on a "large dungeon crawl with a time limit", to encourage the druid to more selectively use his spells. If you do this, try to include places where his summoned monsters would actually greatly benefit the party, so that he doesn't feel unfairly nerfed.

Don't make it "DM vs the player", or (arguably worse) "World as the DM's proxy vs the player". Find a way to make things work so that everyone can have a good time.

Pluto!
2015-10-30, 07:24 AM
Is the game slowing to a crawl because of player tactics or because of the logistics of summoning (referencing a new book for the monster stats, pausing to calculate the effects of buffs and feats, getting bogged down tracking status of HP and relative locations across all the monsters in play)?

The OP kind of makes it sound like the former, which honestly, I don't have a good answer for besides prodding players to just hurry up already.

The latter's more what I've had problems with in the past. You can ask the player to provide you with exact stats on the monster ahead of time. I've asked players to make 3x5 cards of their summons' stats before they can summon them, which really doesn't impose too much, unless you have a crazy tempo of play. Miniatures can also help track what matters in combat.

Personally, I like using spreadsheets when I DM. A lot. So I'll often just ask player to rattle off their major numbers and modifiers (HP, AC, saves, full attack modifiers) as soon as they successfully summon something, and just plug them into a spreadsheet column, adjacent to another column that automatically rolls 1d20+modifier. It makes it relatively painless to make a lot of rolls and track a lot of statuses very quickly.

If it continues to be an issue, you might implement the annoying Astral Construct limitation (modified to be "only one summon spell can be active at a time"). Just warn players ahead of time, explain why and offer players to reallocate feats or spells known if they're negatively impacted by the rule.

NapazTrix
2015-10-30, 08:00 AM
If I Remember Correctly, it is stated there is no limit to summon creatures but is up to the DM the limit of creatures someone can summon/control at once.

I had it up to the top of a third story building with Pokémon masters in my games so I just put a limit of:



Disallowances:

Companions / Summons: You can only have 1 Companion and 1 summon at a time, unless the spell summons more than 1 or is an effect and not a creature you control.
“Glitches/Bugs” like buying ladder, sell pole *blah blah* will not get you far.
Cohorts having Cohorts.


It isn't always the player's fault though, so this is also a guideline when people decide classes. As not everyone thinks "Druid... all the summons" sometimes it just comes with the class and the player thinks that's all they should do or is the "instawin" tactic.

Millennium
2015-10-30, 08:16 AM
What I'd be tempted to do is go with the mob rules (or even the swarm rules, if the animals he summons are small enough). After he summons more than 3-4 creatures, condense them into a single (very small) mob, acting on the best initiative count of the creatures that comprised it. The druid can still summon more creatures to increase the size of the mob, but as long as his "summoned mob" exists, further summoned creatures become part of the mob rather than functioning as individuals. This has a number of advantages: No matter how many creatures he summons, the mob only gets one turn per round. It actually shrinks the initiative tracker when it first comes out, and then ceases to bloat it.
The mob is a single creature with a lot of hit points, so area attacks are not nearly as problematic: an individual squirrel would be killed by a fireball, but a mob of squirrels will likely all survive. This should help alleviate the other players' fears of area attacks.
As a compromise, I'd say that once a mob gets big enough (maybe 6-8), the druid can split it into two mobs of equal size, controlling each one independently of the other. Recursion works: if any of the mobs he controls gets up to the required size, he can split it again. If the druid has more than one mob active, he can choose which mob a newly-summoned creature joins. This still has the potential to bloat the initiative tracker, but does it MUCH more slowly. It also forces the player to choose between having more mobs or having stronger mobs.

Edenbeast
2015-10-30, 08:48 AM
There are a few things that come to mind:

1. What's his alignment? Summoning so many animals means they are low level/low HD, they are used as cannon fodder, sent to certain death or run over by your own team. Although I can imagine it's a good tactic sometimes, it's still rather "cold logic" to do this persistently..

2. Does he ever use handle animal?

summon nature's ally:

This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Note that it says "to the best of its ability." To go beyond that you'll need:


Handle an Animal
This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

“Push” an Animal
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

The druid's animal companion will know tricks, but I don't think most summoned allies know any. But check their stat block to be sure.
If the animal is wounded, it will probably try to flee the battlefield as would be its natural instinct. You need to push it to attack or direct it, which would require a DC 27.

How much time you need for pushing?


Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)

So, even if you decide to deal with all the animals (excluding companion) as if it were a swarm, he'll have no other actions.

Make sure to apply these rules correctly and your player will probably tone down a bit.

Jack_Simth
2015-10-30, 02:54 PM
If the animal is wounded, it will probably try to flee the battlefield as would be its natural instinct. You need to push it to attack or direct it, which would require a DC 27.Catch: "Down" is also a trained trick, and tell me: Do you really have essentially all animals in D&D simply run away the moment they get scratched?

Edenbeast
2015-10-30, 03:22 PM
Catch: "Down" is also a trained trick, and tell me: Do you really have essentially all animals in D&D simply run away the moment they get scratched?

Well, no, obviously not. If it's just a few hp, it would continue attacking. In case of massive damage as "Down" implies (injury, fear, etc.), have the animal run off (which actually happens if it doesn't know the trick, otherwise you could direct the animal to back down). It's up to the DM to decide what is massive damage. In the case of multiple low HD animals, I would say half or more of it's hp.

Inevitability
2015-10-30, 03:27 PM
As far as I can see, there isn't too much to summon that is able to fly at this level. Maybe put him up against a few airborne foes?

Jack_Simth
2015-10-30, 03:37 PM
As far as I can see, there isn't too much to summon that is able to fly at this level. Maybe put him up against a few airborne foes?
Per the OP, "party is level 12ish"

For a Druid, that's:

Summon Nature's Ally VI: Huge Elemental(Any) = Huge Air Elemental. The Pixie can too, but it's much more specialized for what you'd use it to do, seeing as how it only has 1 hit die.
Summon Nature's Ally V: Adult Arrowhawk, Large Elemental(Any) (Pick Air), Griffon, Janni
Summon Nature's Ally IV: Juvinile Arrowhawk, Medium Elemental (Any) (Pick Air)
Summon Nature's Ally III: Giant Owl, Giant Eagle
Summon Nature's Ally II: Dire Bat, Small Elemental (Any) (Pick Air), Hippogriff
Summon Nature's Ally I: Eagle, Owl.

sleepyphoenixx
2015-10-30, 03:45 PM
Note that it says "to the best of its ability." To go beyond that you'll need:


And what is "attacking beyond the best of its ability"? All he needs is having the summoned animals attacking his enemies, which they do automatically.
Even for targetting specific enemies you don't need handle animal, and animals generally don't have any special abilities that require complex instruction.
The spell clearly states that you just need to be able to communicate with it, so Speak with Animals is all you need since talking is a free action.
I can't really see how you'd need Handle Animal for anything with a summoned animal.

There's also the fact to consider that no other summon would have this restriction. If you enforce your ruling your player can just switch to summoning elementals, fey and magical beasts anytime he needs something more complex done, and non-druid summoners aren't affected in any case.
You'd just clutter up your game with unnecessary baggage without achieving anything.

Trying to balance things by making them clunky and annoying to use with arbitrary rules that only work in your specific case is no way to DM.

Eisfalken
2015-10-30, 05:33 PM
Even for targetting specific enemies you don't need handle animal, and animals generally don't have any special abilities that require complex instruction.

Actually, you do need to teach animals tricks to know to attack specific enemies, instead of simply attacking any hostile one.

In fact, Handle Animal specifically says that most animals normally only attack humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, and other animals; teaching them to attack anything counts as two tricks.


The spell clearly states that you just need to be able to communicate with it, so Speak with Animals is all you need since talking is a free action.
I can't really see how you'd need Handle Animal for anything with a summoned animal.

Speak with animals specifically states that it doesn't make animals any more friendly or cooperative than normal; it is not a replacement for Handle Animal.

Which doesn't matter anyway. Summoned creatures obey the summoner's commands if given, or act on their own otherwise.


There's also the fact to consider that no other summon would have this restriction. If you enforce your ruling your player can just switch to summoning elementals, fey and magical beasts anytime he needs something more complex done, and non-druid summoners aren't affected in any case.

That's why there's actually different spells for summon monster and summon nature's ally; they actually are not the same spell at all, so that line of logic is broken. They follow the RAW for each spell individually. You can't conflate rules for one spell with another simply because your opinion is that they are the same, unless a specific DM house rules it that way. That's not how rules work, in any game.

Even still, summon monster ALSO says you need some method of communication, or the creature summoned just does the best it can to figure out what is an "enemy", and attacks it. The benefit of that spell is that you generally summon more intelligent creatures to fight on your behalf, and almost all of the outsiders you summon can in fact understand Common (or have telepathy).

Druids can't use any summon monster spells. They can only use summon nature's ally, unless they start dipping wizard or cleric.

Druids can summon more than just animals later on with higher-level spells. Still has to communicate with them... like wizards and clerics do with summon monster.

You really need to read the rules first before making assumptions.


You'd just clutter up your game with unnecessary baggage without achieving anything.

Or we all stop acting like this is such a big deal.

It's really very simple: the player doesn't control a summons. That's the DM's perrogative. They can give commands, which the monsters are meant to follow to the best of their ability, but if there is no communication going on, then all the DM has to do is move any summoned creatures to the nearest enemy and have them make attacks.

See? Nothing complicated at all. Of course, the PC druid will have to keep casting speak with animals and learn Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran, and Sylvan, just to be on the safe side, but that's not the DM's problem, that's the player's problem. They should have thought about that before going all gung-ho on dozens of summons.


Trying to balance things by making them clunky and annoying to use with arbitrary rules that only work in your specific case is no way to DM.

And players trying to reinterpret or reinvent rules that aren't written to work the way they think they are is no way to allow someone to take your game over from you. It's basically saying the player is running the game, not the DM. Nope.

It doesn't matter, though, because everyone acts like there's some mountain of rules in the book that make this hard. No, there really isn't.

1. Player druid casts SNAx, selects the monster type. DM puts monster type on the field.
2a. If druid has communication enabled, then they give the creature a target enemy. DM moves summoned creature to and/or attacks target.
2b. If druid has no communication enabled, DM moves summoned creature to nearest enemy, makes attacks as normal for a DM-run monster.
3. If summoned creature is still alive/active, it moves to closest enemy unless given different target by druid.
Wash, rinse, repeat until spell expires or creature dies.

Nothing hard about it at all.

eggynack
2015-10-30, 05:48 PM
1. Player druid casts SNAx, selects the monster type. DM puts monster type on the field.
2a. If druid has communication enabled, then they give the creature a target enemy. DM moves summoned creature to and/or attacks target.
2b. If druid has no communication enabled, DM moves summoned creature to nearest enemy, makes attacks as normal for a DM-run monster.
3. If summoned creature is still alive/active, it moves to closest enemy unless given different target by druid.
Wash, rinse, repeat until spell expires or creature dies.

Pretty much, though it's not like that course of action is necessarily a suboptimal one. You can adjust initial creature placement, and that means that the closest creature is also often the one you want to be punching in the face. Even with this bare bones attack pattern, you're still getting a spell that is often efficient, especially if you're optimizing summoning and picking good creatures. And, by the text, the summoned creature will definitely be attacking if the enemy is there to be attacked, and the creature attacked will be an actual enemy, so you're definitely getting some impact here.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-30, 05:53 PM
As another option is it possible to introduce him to the other wonderful things a druid can do? I love druid for being able to drop some really epic looking BFC while mauling the battlefield with a super animal companion while I fly around safely as a bat. Introduce him to eggynack's excellent druid guide and see if he wants to try other options.

Kantolin
2015-10-30, 08:06 PM
Would a fire shield or similar spell halt most of the animals?

Overall, 'a bunch of weak animals' does seem like the type of situation to just throw a couple more fireballs.

And also overall, 'Hey man, please limit the summoning, nobody is having fun'. Be more firm about it.

Scorponok
2015-10-30, 09:32 PM
In game:

- create a low level spell that dispels only summoned creatures. Since Dispel Magic is a 3rd level spell, Dispel Summons should be 2nd or even 1st level spell.
- create a wand that has this spell.
- give it to a bunch of low level mooks. Add a bunch of low level mooks to your encounters.

If the other players are pissed off at his summons, they'll stand by as the low level mooks easily kill off his summons. If they think the summons might be useful, they'll help him protect them. This could actually bring a new dynamic to the game as the NPCs try to support his summons and get rid of the wand army at the same time.

Crake
2015-10-31, 04:10 AM
Un/hallowed sites are treated as huge circles of protection from evil/good, meaning no summoned creatures (except of good/evil alignment) can be summoned into those areas. Forbiddance should also do the same. Hallow/unhallow doesn't take much effort to put into place, and covers are fairly large area, and isn't dispellable (it's instantaneous), so there's no way around it.

MasterFu
2015-10-31, 04:12 PM
AoE has already been mentioned, but animals probably have lower will saves than reflex. Sleep? Confusion? Even Hypnotic Pattern might help. Death Knell? He may not want to keep throwing lowbie mooks into the mix if he's just ramping up the big bad guy's caster level.

Then there's always Invisibility to Animals, or some effect that gives the enemy control of the summoned animals, or something with the unnatural presence ability.

It's perfectly fair for the bad guys to recognize patterns and counter them, especially at levels where divination/scrying are reasonable expectations.

rrwoods
2015-10-31, 08:09 PM
Shadow Jaunt is a second level maneuver. Alternatively, anklet of translocation. Basically any tactical teleportation to get the NPC the heck out of the crowd.

danzibr
2015-10-31, 08:14 PM
I had this same problem.

At my table I limit one summon/pet/whatever per character.

nedz
2015-10-31, 10:09 PM
There are so many counters to this though: if the party are fighting NPCs then it really shouldn't be too hard to shut down. Monsters are less flexible, so this is an issue for this type of encounter.

Tvtyrant
2015-11-01, 03:15 PM
Great cleave feat basically resolves this issue, as does fireball. Any issue that can be resolved by tier 4 and 5 characters seems pretty minor to me...

eggynack
2015-11-01, 07:52 PM
Great cleave feat basically resolves this issue, as does fireball. Any issue that can be resolved by tier 4 and 5 characters seems pretty minor to me...
I dunno. I'm inclined to think that a spell that eats up the time and energy of my opponents is a spell well spent, especially if that spell also dealt damage to my opponents and maybe grappled them in the first round.

nedz
2015-11-01, 08:11 PM
I did find, in one game, that the PCs would just ignore the summons and go for the casters eating the AoOs. So what if some critter snaps at you ? It will likely miss, and if it does hit the damage will be slight. This is one problem with lots of weak summons, there are plenty of further counters.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-11-01, 08:26 PM
OP can correct me if I am wrong, but the problem was that the flood of animals was keeping the players from able to contribute. They were clogging up the battlefield and slowing down combat thanks to their pile of extra actions.

nedz
2015-11-01, 10:31 PM
Yes, but if you demonstrate that they are useless then the summoner will switch to fewer better summons; which should solve the problem.

Madeiner
2015-11-02, 06:11 AM
I say, don't try to find in game solution to an out of game problem.
That is clearly an out of game problem (combat taking too much time), you can't solve it with cleave or magic circles that will get boring too after the third application.

Speak to the player again, impose that he limits the summons. You decide how. If he still doesn't back up, ask the other players to support you. If they don't and you really don't like combats this way, threaten to stop the campaign and begin another. With new rules: no summoning.

I had this problem too in a past game, and in my new campaign, i explained at the start that summoning was extremelly risky ingame, for out-of-game reasons. I've had a few druids, nobody tried to summon anything, they still shined.
Oh, but i let them convert spells to cure spells like a cleric, instead of summoning.