Puzzled Durkon Vampirism Question [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Delta357

2015-10-30, 03:01 PM

Grey Watcher

2015-10-30, 03:03 PM

So in strip #907, when Durkon is free of Malack influance, he responsed to Nales requests to joining with some good old dwarven beatdowns, and he sounds the same as Durkon, yet in the recent strips after the break its clear the Durkon is a prisoner in his own body basically, so I was wondering what exactly was happening then? Was he just already good at faking it, or was there actually a "transitional period" as Nale said where Durkon warred for control of himself?

This may have already been answered or discussed somewhere but I wasn't able to find anything if so

Any help or speculation would be great thanks ^^

I just figured that any and all use of the Dwarf accent is the HPoH faking it. Nale's met the living Durkon, so if he suddenly started talking without the accent without an excuse (like being Malack's thrall), it'll look suspicious if Nale gets away (which he did) and tells someone (which he didn't get a chance to).

Gift Jeraff

2015-10-30, 03:14 PM

I just figured that any and all use of the Dwarf accent is the HPoH faking it. Nale's met the living Durkon, so if he suddenly started talking without the accent without an excuse (like being Malack's thrall), it'll look suspicious if Nale gets away (which he did) and tells someone (which he didn't get a chance to).

That's my interpretation as well. If the OOTS captured Nale and he told them what he knows about vampires--and even heard him speaking without a dwarven accent a few rounds ago--Haley would be able to tell he's not lying. Best to plant as few seeds of doubt as possible.

Plus, he was getting practice for making first impressions with Roy.

Pyrous

2015-10-30, 03:16 PM

Durkon refused to work with Nale for two reasons:

1) Nale was an idiot;

2) He knew the Order would get an airship soon, that he could use to get to the Godsmoot. So he had to help the Order survive.

The accent part is to trick the reader. Also, what Grey Watcher said.

Gift Jeraff

2015-10-30, 03:22 PM

2) He knew the Order would get an airship soon, that he could use to get to the Godsmooth. So he had to help the Order survive.

In what way is an airship better than a wizard with teleport spells?

No, the real reason Durkon didn't join the Linear Guild is that they would have had no reason to stop at the Godsmoot, and the "I'm actually Durkon and want to be brought back to life" act would have been met with a Greater Dispel Magic.

Pyrous

2015-10-30, 03:25 PM

thereaper

2015-10-30, 03:37 PM

The HPOH specifically notes that he messed up Durkon's accent a couple of times when talking to Hel. So yes, he was faking it.

Keltest

2015-10-30, 03:37 PM

In what way is an airship better than a wizard with teleport spells?

No, the real reason Durkon didn't join the Linear Guild is that they would have had no reason to stop at the Godsmoot, and the "I'm actually Durkon and want to be brought back to life" act would have been met with a Greater Dispel Magic.

I think "The gods are holding a vote whether or not to destroy the world, and I need to cast Hel's vote to keep us alive" would be a fairly persuasive argument to Nale, or at least Z. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have any exceptional sense motive skills to call his bluff.

Furthermore, Z may not be able to teleport them there. ignoring the range "problem" because he can just cast teleport twice if necessary, the chances of failure increase dramatically with an unfamiliar location. And while I don't know the 3.5 rules for scrying all that well, doesn't it have to target a person rather than a location?

Pyrous

2015-10-30, 03:56 PM

Keltest

2015-10-30, 04:19 PM

But they would enter the Godsmooth as his bodyguards. As soon as he casted Hel's vote, maybe sooner, he would have to deal with a wizard and a fighter/rogue/sorcerer trying to destroy him.

Of course, he could "forget" to mention that he can enter with two bodyguards. And he got lucky Roy didn't chose V.

What makes you think he would choose them to be his bodyguards?

Pyrous

2015-10-30, 04:27 PM

What makes you think he would choose them to be his bodyguards?

I just think that he could persuade Nale to help him get to the Godsmoot, but not to keep waiting outside, if Nale would ever learn that he could enter. That's what the '"forget" to mention' part is for.

Keltest

2015-10-30, 04:30 PM

I just think that he could persuade Nale to help him get to the Godsmooth, but not to keep waiting outside, if Nale would ever learn that he could enter. That's what the '"forget" to mention' part is for.

Why does he have to forget? There are gate guards, no?

Pyrous

2015-10-30, 05:04 PM

Why does he have to forget? There are gate guards, no?

:nale: Wait, why don't you want we coming with you?

Or maybe:

Durkula - I'm the HPoH.
Gontor - And which ones of your your companions will be entering as your bodyguards?
Nale - Me and ...
Durkula - None.
Nale - WHAT?!
Sabine - WHAT?!
Z - What?!

If he mentioned the bodyguard possibility, Nale would have chosen who would enter, and Durkula would agree, and now he was caught lying, and Nale may try to kill another vampire right there. If he "forgets", he probably can enter the temple before Nale has time to connect the dots.

...

Did Durkula have enough time to think about this? Did he start to consider his strategy when he was enthralled? Why can't I just appreciate the comic as written, without trying to ponder if the in-universe reasoning of the characters are consistent, as I did before joining the Forum? Did my last question answer itself?

Keltest

2015-10-30, 05:21 PM

:nale: Wait, why don't you want we coming with you?

Or maybe:

Durkula - I'm the HPoH.
Gontor - And which ones of your your companions will be entering as your bodyguards?
Nale - Me and ...
Durkula - None.
Nale - WHAT?!
Sabine - WHAT?!
Z - What?!

If he mentioned the bodyguard possibility, Nale would have chosen who would enter, and Durkula would agree, and now he was caught lying, and Nale may try to kill another vampire right there. If he "forgets", he probably can enter the temple before Nale has time to connect the dots.

...

Did Durkula have enough time to think about this? Did he start to consider his strategy when he was enthralled? Why can't I just appreciate the comic as written, without trying to ponder if the in-universe reasoning of the characters are consistent, as I did before joining the Forum? Did my last question answer itself?

And then what happens? Once Durkon is there, why does it matter that Nale and Z aren't his bodyguards? What are they going to do about it?

Ron Miel

2015-10-31, 03:49 AM

Remember, this was just minutes after the 4th Gate destruction. The Godsmoot hadn't been called yet.

Domino Quartz

2015-10-31, 04:00 AM

But they would enter the Godsmooth as his bodyguards.

Just so you know, it's "Godsmoot" (without an "h"), not "Godsmooth".

Pyrous

2015-10-31, 07:51 AM

And then what happens? Once Durkon is there, why does it matter that Nale and Z aren't his bodyguards? What are they going to do about it?

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe siding with Nale would be a better choice for Durkula. He could have teleported to somewhere near, ditch the LG and get to the Godsmoot by himself, faster then he did with the Order. I'm trying to understand why he didn't. Besides, you know, the plot. Maybe he didn't because Nale is a vampire killer. Maybe he hates those guys because of the memories of Durkon fighting the LG. Maybe he had time to consider his strategy while he was still Malack's thrall.

Just so you know, it's "Godsmoot" (without an "h"), not "Godsmooth".
Thanks, edited my previous posts.

Edit:

Remember, this was just minutes after the 4th Gate destruction. The Godsmoot hadn't been called yet.

Interesting. The Godsmoot was called with three days' notice. How many days have passed since the 4th Gate was destroyed? Probably more than three. Did Hel already know that a Godsmoot would be called?

factotum

2015-10-31, 08:22 AM

Interesting. The Godsmoot was called with three days' notice. How many days have passed since the 4th Gate was destroyed? Probably more than three. Did Hel already know that a Godsmoot would be called?

Are you assuming Hel took a personal interest in Durkon because she thought a Godsmoot would be called? I don't think it necessarily follows--for a start, Durkon was vampirised some time before the Gate exploded. Secondly, even if there had been no prospect of a Godsmoot, it would have made sense for Hel to ensure she ended up with her vampire High Priest, because it's the only way she's ever going to get one!

Dr.Zero

2015-10-31, 08:58 AM

I think "The gods are holding a vote whether or not to destroy the world, and I need to cast Hel's vote to keep us alive" would be a fairly persuasive argument to Nale, or at least Z. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have any exceptional sense motive skills to call his bluff.

Furthermore, Z may not be able to teleport them there. ignoring the range "problem" because he can just cast teleport twice if necessary, the chances of failure increase dramatically with an unfamiliar location. And while I don't know the 3.5 rules for scrying all that well, doesn't it have to target a person rather than a location?

"I have to cast Hel's vote to keep us alive. Yes, that is the same Hel who incidentally is the goddess of Death and Destruction. No questions, please." :)

Nale is -well, was- an egomaniac, not an idiot. :)

Aside the obvious plot focus reasons to choose the OOTS over the LG, if we want to find some rational reasons these are that OOTS is more simply to control, that they had a loyal feeling toward the late Durkon which Durkula was sure he could exploit and that they had no idea on how vampire works (instead Nale had probably vastly reasearched the subject).

So, between the loyal, easily gullible good guys team and the egomaniac, dangerous vampire killer, it was a pretty simple choice, in my opinion. :)

Pyrous

2015-10-31, 09:46 AM

Are you assuming Hel took a personal interest in Durkon because she thought a Godsmoot would be called? I don't think it necessarily follows--for a start, Durkon was vampirised some time before the Gate exploded. Secondly, even if there had been no prospect of a Godsmoot, it would have made sense for Hel to ensure she ended up with her vampire High Priest, because it's the only way she's ever going to get one!

That's not what I'm assuming. Hel clearly has a personal interest in Durkon/Durkula because he is her only high level priest. I'm thinking about Hel's plan for power. Did she know, or at least expected, that a Godsmoot would be called right after the 4th Gate exploded? Did she expected the 4th Gate to explode?

"I have to cast Hel's vote to keep us alive. Yes, that is the same Hel who incidentally is the goddess of Death and Destruction. No questions, please." :)

Nale is -well, was- an egomaniac, not an idiot. :)

Aside the obvious plot focus reasons to choose the OOTS over the LG, if we want to find some rational reasons these are that OOTS is more simply to control, that they had a loyal feeling toward the late Durkon which Durkula was sure he could exploit and that they had no idea on how vampire works (instead Nale had probably vastly reasearched the subject).

So, between the loyal, easily gullible good guys team and the egomaniac, dangerous vampire killer, it was a pretty simple choice, in my opinion. :)

I like that explanation. Very clear, very simple. And to clarify, when I called him a idiot earlier, it was in the 'egomaniac jerk, who may very well get killed for it' sense.

Keltest

2015-10-31, 11:36 AM

"I have to cast Hel's vote to keep us alive. Yes, that is the same Hel who incidentally is the goddess of Death and Destruction. No questions, please." :)

Nale is -well, was- an egomaniac, not an idiot. :)

Aside the obvious plot focus reasons to choose the OOTS over the LG, if we want to find some rational reasons these are that OOTS is more simply to control, that they had a loyal feeling toward the late Durkon which Durkula was sure he could exploit and that they had no idea on how vampire works (instead Nale had probably vastly reasearched the subject).

So, between the loyal, easily gullible good guys team and the egomaniac, dangerous vampire killer, it was a pretty simple choice, in my opinion. :)

People cant die anymore if the world is destroyed. Hel has a personal reason to want to destroy the world, but Nale couldn't possibly know about the deal over Dwarven souls.

Roland Itiative

2015-10-31, 02:41 PM

No, the real reason Durkon didn't join the Linear Guild is that they would have had no reason to stop at the Godsmoot, and the "I'm actually Durkon and want to be brought back to life" act would have been met with a Greater Dispel Magic.
What? The only people Durkula had to fool with his act was the Order. If he got a free teleport straight to the Godsmoot, he could just say he's the High Priest of Hel and get inside instantly.

The real reason, in my opinion, is that the Order would simply be easier to fool. Evil is not a single happy family, so saying the truth to Nale would not warrant his cooperation, and Durkula wouldn't have the emotional angle to leverage his interactions with the Linear Guild, which is what allowed him to manipulate Roy to do exactly what he needed. He would just be a goon, a new arrival, and Nale couldn't care less what he wants to do, he has petty squabbles to overplan vengeance for.

Also, he might know the Linear Guild is already a puppet to the IFCC, and their interests might clash with Hel's. Two puppeteers can't control a single puppet to do opposite things at once. In this sense, the Order is a much better group, as they're a bit more free to act.

Murk

2015-10-31, 02:46 PM

Maybe the vampire actually disliked them as people?

Isn't that an option?

Roland Itiative

2015-10-31, 03:39 PM

Maybe the vampire actually disliked them as people?

Isn't that an option?

Well, he doesn't seem to exactly like Roy as a person either :smalltongue:

Kantaki

2015-10-31, 04:04 PM

Well, he doesn't seem to exactly like Roy as a person either :smalltongue:

Sure, but he has Durkon's memories. Based on those Nale would be seen as more harm- than useful. I mean if you had witnessed Nale's actions only from Durkon's point of view (plus whatever HPoH registrated while he was Malak's thrall) whould you want to work with this guy? Or would you get rid of a potential obstacle?

Roy on the other hand looks useful and can be manipulated over this "friendship" thing.

Father Miles

2015-10-31, 05:08 PM

Nale was a known vampire killer and as such possibly not a good ally.

Synesthesy

2015-11-01, 05:19 PM

Durkula has got Durkon's memory.

He has no reason at all to:

- Like Nale
- Trust Nale
- Think that Nale would be of any help to exit the desert, not only to reach the Godsmoot

Instead, he have a lot of reason to bet on Roy:

- He's loyal to Durkon, so he'll help him
- He's too lawfull to even question about Durkula's vampirism
- He's smart and he's got an airship

And Durkula was right on his bet, wasn't he?

Vinyadan

2015-11-01, 05:59 PM

He was aware that Sabine was out there, somewhere. Given that she was Nale's lover, he could have expected her to be watching him, not to say anything about good old Quarr possibly flying around invisibly. So he better keep the act up, because evil is no happy family.

rbetieh

2015-11-01, 06:07 PM

I think Nale was referring to the Transition to Evil in his "Transition Period" comment. The vampire was in control immediately, and was faking it because he probably wants to keep the number of people who know that a new soul is driving the body to a minimum. As for not joining Nale, who wants to follow a fool instead of someone smarter whom he can fool?

Kish

2015-11-01, 06:24 PM

The High Priest of Hel doesn't need a reason to kill. He needs a compelling reason not to kill. Witness the way the world currently exists only because when an opportunity to kill the ushers presented itself he immediately grabbed it. Faced with the Linear Guild, he made a (probably correct) snap decision that manipulating the Order was a better bet than relying on Nale and Zz'dtri to both survive the next hour and be as easy to manipulate, and there was never any question that he would gleefully slaughter whichever group he didn't decide to use.

Dr.Zero

2015-11-01, 06:51 PM

As for not joining Nale, who wants to follow a fool instead of someone smarter whom he can fool?

Anyway, and sorry for the OT, Nale is not "a fool".
If we see the story as if it was something happened for real, we had that:

1) Dorukan's tower: Nale did beat the OOTS and did steal the mcguffin amulet. The only way for the OOTS to get the upper hand was thanks to a prophecy from a ghost and to a "forced natural 20" from Haley.
2) Azure City: Nale did fool the OOTS making them believe he was Elan and consequently almost killed Haley. The OOTS managed to get the upper hand thanks to Julio, who gifted Elan with a level in badass and who brought him there just in the nick of time.
3) Bleedingham: Nale was very close to kill both Durkon and Elan. The OOTS managed to get the upper hand thanks to Malack. And this with a plan he created on the spot at the last minute.
4) Girard's Gate: this is the first time the OOTS manages to beat Nale fair and square on its own with a good strategy.
5) Girard's Gate crater: Nale's team was going to kill the OOTS if he didn't need to use that opportunity, while Tarquin was away, to obliterate Malack, before that Tarquin returned.

Basically, if we see Nale not as a plot device (who must be close to beat the heroes only to make the story more interesting), but as "a person" he managed to kick the OOTS' ass more than once. And the OOTS survived only thanks to some help granted from outside of the team's members.

Very far from what can be labelled as a "fool". :)

Lord Stoneheart

2015-11-01, 07:21 PM

Anyway, and sorry for the OT, Nale is not "a fool".
If we see the story as if it was something happened for real, we had that:

1) Dorukan's tower: Nale did beat the OOTS and did steal the mcguffin amulet. The only way for the OOTS to get the upper hand was thanks to a prophecy from a ghost and to a "forced natural 20" from Haley.
2) Azure City: Nale did fool the OOTS making them believe he was Elan and consequently almost killed Haley. The OOTS managed to get the upper hand thanks to Julio, who gifted Elan with a level in badass and who brought him there just in the nick of time.
3) Bleedingham: Nale was very close to kill both Durkon and Elan. The OOTS managed to get the upper hand thanks to Malack. And this with a plan he created on the spot at the last minute.
4) Girard's Gate: this is the first time the OOTS manages to beat Nale fair and square on its own with a good strategy.
5) Girard's Gate crater: Nale's team was going to kill the OOTS if he didn't need to use that opportunity, while Tarquin was away, to obliterate Malack, before that Tarquin returned.

Basically, if we see Nale not as a plot device (who must be close to beat the heroes only to make the story more interesting), but as "a person" he managed to kick the OOTS' ass more than once. And the OOTS survived only thanks to some help granted from outside of the team's members.

Very far from what can be labelled as a "fool". :)

Really, a lot of this is less, "Nale is not a fool" and more "Both the Linear Guild and the Order of the Stick can be pretty foolish"

I mean, we are talking about a guy whose disguise as one of the heroes failed because he got overly defensive about an insult to his plans. I mean he's not a complete buffoon, he knew Malack was planning on killing him at the end of the mission to the Windy Canyon, and correctly identified an opportunity to strike first. And his betrayal of the OOTS in the first dungeon worked rather well. (Even if it did rely on most the Order being easily duped). But many of his plans have been undone due to his own arrogance, and not anticipating the consequences for his actions. (Including the events that led to his death. He probably should have picked a better time to sever his ties with his dad)

Gruffe

2015-11-01, 11:51 PM

- He's smart and he's got an airship

Not at the time Durkon rejoined Roy and the Order. The airship appeared after Nale died.

That said, he might've stayed with the Order because they had an airship.

Quebbster

2015-11-02, 04:19 AM

Not at the time Durkon rejoined Roy and the Order. The airship appeared after Nale died.

That said, he might've stayed with the Order because they had an airship.

On the other hand, it was Durkon who contacted Julio on Elans behalf, so Durkula would be aware the Order had some sort of ace up their sleeve at least. Whether he was aware of the airship specifically I cannot tell though.

Dr.Zero

2015-11-02, 08:14 AM

Really, a lot of this is less, "Nale is not a fool" and more "Both the Linear Guild and the Order of the Stick can be pretty foolish"

I mean, we are talking about a guy whose disguise as one of the heroes failed because he got overly defensive about an insult to his plans. I mean he's not a complete buffoon, he knew Malack was planning on killing him at the end of the mission to the Windy Canyon, and correctly identified an opportunity to strike first. And his betrayal of the OOTS in the first dungeon worked rather well. (Even if it did rely on most the Order being easily duped). But many of his plans have been undone due to his own arrogance, and not anticipating the consequences for his actions. (Including the events that led to his death. He probably should have picked a better time to sever his ties with his dad)

Yes, we can correct my affirmation.
From: "Nale is very far from being a fool."
To: "Nale is very far from being a fool, according to the bell curve of idiocy distribution shown normally by the other characters"

:)