Why Play THIEF Rogue/How?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey everyone,

In almost ever instance/game I've seen or played, the thief is always an assassin, arcane trickster, or swashbuckler. Both seem solid archetypes with a very distinct playstyles. As is the thief, I imagine, given the very different bonuses.

My questions are:


1) Is the thief just so much less useful in combat that all of the non-combat related bonuses aren't worth it?

2) What kind of uses does a thief specifically bring to the party?

3) How do you capitalize on their abilities? (in/out of combat)

4) When would you prefer a thief over a swashbuckler/assassin/arcane trickster?

5) What are some cool thief tricks?

6) Tell us some stories of your experiences with thieves!

7) Anything else you'd like to contribute.

Note: This is a 'class' related question. However, feel free to post race specific contributions/theories and/or builds if you'd like.

Thanks in advance. I really look forward to learning some more from your answers, as always.


-Dove

[DanyBallon]

I'd say that it is a good pick for someone who don't want to play an assassin, a magic user or a fencer... You know, the sneaky thief or the trapmaster archetype :smallwink:

[Coffee_Dragon]

I want to play a cat burglar type, don't care to mix in spellcasting and don't care for the enforced flavour of the assassin. Easy choice.

[mephnick]

It's a great traditional rogue. The problem is you don't need the traditional roles any more.

Thief rogue is the same as a healing cleric. It's viable, but you don't need a healing cleric any more, so you might as well pick something cooler.

[Tanarii]

I think it was included because they wanted to cover the classic Thief archetype , and because it fit the theme of 'simple', like the Champion Fighter.

It's good if you need an in-combat trap disarmer (Fast Hands) and the ultimate guy to scout ahead (Supreme Sneak & Expertise in Stealth). UMD & Fast Hands has some potential with the right magic items.

[MOLOKH]

I have a level 7 Thief in my group (I'm DM) and he's always held his own and saved the whole party on several occasions. A lot of that is due to Rogue being a very solid class in general. However, between Cunning Action, Second Story Work, Expertise in Acrobatics and Athletics and a Ring of Jumping (which I ruled stacks with SSW), the character is insanely mobile and hard to pin down. He once jumped clean over a hydra to get to a dying PC and stabilize him. The cimb speed ability has come up quite often, to the point where he almost acts like a quadruped. He also plays in a very daredevil-esque style and is usually the one who does the most dangerous, flamboyant and high risk - high reward moves.

He's basically the Prince of Persia.

Also, I feel Assassin is a bit overrated. Its 3rd level ability is what most people are after and its other abilities up to Death Strike are very situational and can actually be replicated by a few spells or even good roleplaying. Arcane Trickster does seem quite a bit more powerfull than all other subclasses though. It can be very versatile and safe with the correct spell choices, and the new cantrips in SCAG can up the character's damage quite a bit.

[MeeposFire]

I think it was included because they wanted to cover the classic Thief archetype , and because it fit the theme of 'simple', like the Champion Fighter.

It's good if you need an in-combat trap disarmer (Fast Hands) and the ultimate guy to scout ahead (Supreme Sneak & Expertise in Stealth). UMD & Fast Hands has some potential with the right magic items.

Sadly fast hands no longer work with magic items due to the DMG. I houserule that it does work as originally witten with just the PHB as I think it gives them some special niche for combat effectiveness.

One trick with the thief is that it is the best non-spell based healer. A thief can take the healer feat and use fast hands to give short rest based heals with healer kits. That is pretty neat. An additional houserule I have considered even if it is not very thematic but helpful is to give the healer feat for free if the thief acquires the medicine skill.

[DracoKnight]

Sadly fast hands no longer work with magic items due to the DMG. I houserule that it does work as originally witten with just the PHB as I think it gives them some special niche for combat effectiveness.

What does the DMG say?

[MeeposFire]

What does the DMG say?

Can't give you the page number right now but in the DMG about magic items they specifically say that the thief's fast hands ability cannot be used with magical items.

This was added because between the time of releasing the PHB and the DMG people talked abut using UMD with fast hands and apparently the designers did not like that idea and so specifically took that away in the DMG.

Personally I think they went over bored in their fear of this combo. The ability is useful and powerful but has a lot of potent restrictions (such as cost, ability to gain useful items with the ability, and most importantly you need to attune to almost all the best items for this ability which is a huge opportunity cost).

EDIT: Found it on page 141 in the treasure part of the DMG under "Activating an item".

It says that "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the use an item action, so a feature such as the rogue's fast hands can't be used to activate the item".

Essentially this creates a new action type I will call "Use a magic item action". This was essentially only created to cut out fast hands use with magic items.

[Firechanter]

Well, I think _if_ I should play a Rogue one time, I might very well go the distance and be a Thief.

TBH my _actual_ preferred playstyle would be more of an Arcane Trickster, but unfortunately the 5E AT does not deliver. It's just too limited in terms of spell selection. I don't need Enchantments, I want Transmutations like Darkvision and Spiderclimb, and a bunch of other spells that way exceed the AT's pitiful allowance of 1 "versatile" spell per 5 levels.

Assassin otoh is rather boring, it's been done to death, sorry about the pun.

Haven't read the Swashbuckler yet so I can't compare it to the rest.

[Mara]

Magic items require a full action to use. No one can use then with a user object action.

What a thief can do is basically anything. They can apply poisons as a bonus action. They can stabilize 3 allies a round (with the healer feat they wake up at 1 HP). They are very sad. ATs want int. Sins want better cha. Thieves want feats. Skulker + mobile is good. Then things like sharpshooter or skilled could come is handy. I go regular human so I can put 14s in the mental stats I want (cha/wis).

[Jeebs]

I like Barbarian 2/Thief 18. STR-based Rogue in Medium Armor (or Unarmored) who can use the Thief's jumping/climbing bonuses. Super climber with Expertise in Athletics.

Pump STR and CON, take Resilient (DEX) and Sentinel. Easy Sneak Attacks with Reckless Attack, easy Reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel, and eventually you get Thieves' Reflexes for 4 Sneak Attacks in the first round.

Tank Rogue!

[mephnick]

TBH my _actual_ preferred playstyle would be more of an Arcane Trickster, but unfortunately the 5E AT does not deliver. It's just too limited in terms of spell selection. I don't need Enchantments, I want Transmutations like Darkvision and Spiderclimb

I still have no idea why they decided to limit the AT and EK to spell schools. It seems stupid to me.

Why can't my EK use illusions? Why can't my AT use transmutations?

[Sigreid]

When I play a rogue, Thief archetype is what I want to play. I like stealthy, larcenistic and fast. My last 3.5 character was part break in artist and part parkor champion and was a blast to play. The rest of the party could spellcast and kill. He was in many ways the group's scrying spell.

[Sigreid]

I still have no idea why they decided to limit the AT and EK to spell schools. It seems stupid to me.

Why can't my EK use illusions? Why can't my AT use transmutations?

One of the first house rules my group decided on was that EK was limited to 2 schools, but you could pick your two. All the schools could be very useful to a warrior.

[Mara]

The school limitation may actually be a buff. They push you towards spells that better replicate what the other archetypes would give you. EKs get more defenses and some range/AOE damage options. ATs get tons of utility and manipulation spells.

Still more than a 3rd of their spells can be from any school.

[ad_hoc]

I actually don't understand the love for Assassins.

Even if you surprise the opponent, if you don't win initiative your bonuses don't kick in. It is very situational and then also dependent on luck.

You can often get advantage from being an unseen attacker anyway.

I would always take Thief over Assassin. Though I like spellcasters so I am taking AT first. Mastermind and Swashbuckler also look fun.

The only one I don't like I guess is Assassin.

[MeeposFire]

I actually don't understand the love for Assassins.

Even if you surprise the opponent, if you don't win initiative your bonuses don't kick in. It is very situational and then also dependent on luck.

You can often get advantage from being an unseen attacker anyway.

I would always take Thief over Assassin. Though I like spellcasters so I am taking AT first. Mastermind and Swashbuckler also look fun.

The only one I don't like I guess is Assassin.

I am not that thrilled with the assassin either but advantage is not the big win. The free critical is more important.

[ad_hoc]

I am not that thrilled with the assassin either but advantage is not the big win. The free critical is more important.

But how often does that happen? You need to surprise, then win initiative.

I'd much rather have an ability that I know will work.

[Coidzor]

Fast Hands to splash Oil on an enemy before using Greenflame Blade for some extra damage is one combo that I've seen brought up since the SCAG came out. You can get that cantrip through Magic Initiate, Half-Elf(SCAG), or High Elf now.

[MeeposFire]

But how often does that happen? You need to surprise, then win initiative.

I'd much rather have an ability that I know will work.

Oh I agree but that is why people rate it so highly. People value the possibility of big numbers even if the chance is relatively small.

[djreynolds]

Fast hands and dust of disappearance, very nice combo to get out of combat and set up

[CNagy]

Essentially this creates a new action type I will call "Use a magic item action". This was essentially only created to cut out fast hands use with magic items.

It doesn't create a new action so much as it specifies that each magic item requiring activation has its own action. Much like how Multiattack is itself an action and not a form of the Attack action. So using an Efreeti Bottle is Action: Use Efreeti Bottle rather than Use an Item: Efreeti Bottle. It makes sense to me because while most magic item activations take an action, some of them take a minute or ten minutes to activate. Since they don't have a uniform activation cost, they can't be covered under a single blanket action like Use an Item, because then the exceptions create a case of specific vs. specific; neither the item's description nor the Thief's Fast Hands ability are a general rule, so there is no clear winner if the two clash. Thus, it is simpler to make every magic item activation it's own special little snowflake.

[Tanarii]

But how often does that happen? You need to surprise, then win initiative.

I'd much rather have an ability that I know will work.
Agreed, the Assissins 'free critical' ability is very meh. Unless you scout way in advance of the party, or have a stealth oriented party, surprise is unlikely to ever happen. You certainly can scout way out front, and I've seen that use as a way to try and kite the enemy back to where the party is waiting. But if you get caught alone when you're trying that, you're going to have a very bad day.

[MeeposFire]

It doesn't create a new action so much as it specifies that each magic item requiring activation has its own action. Much like how Multiattack is itself an action and not a form of the Attack action. So using an Efreeti Bottle is Action: Use Efreeti Bottle rather than Use an Item: Efreeti Bottle. It makes sense to me because while most magic item activations take an action, some of them take a minute or ten minutes to activate. Since they don't have a uniform activation cost, they can't be covered under a single blanket action like Use an Item, because then the exceptions create a case of specific vs. specific; neither the item's description nor the Thief's Fast Hands ability are a general rule, so there is no clear winner if the two clash. Thus, it is simpler to make every magic item activation it's own special little snowflake.

Actually what you describe is creating a new action. Before that little blurb of a rule came out everybody had using a magic item as using the "use an object" action because strangely enough it was an object and you are using it. Now that rules says it is not that action so what action is it? Well no other action previously shown work so it must be a new action.


We know there are mundane things out there that can require 10 minutes or more to complete their usage. If that is the case how can use an object be ok to use with that but if it is a magic item now that is a problem. There is no reason to treat magic items differently in this regard (unless you literally want to which is what they decided to do literally to stop one seemingly obvious ability combo). Even with fast hands an item that requires ten minutes of using your action to use still takes 10 minutes to use, it only requires a bonus action each round rather than an action (and if it did not use an action then fast hands cannot be applied to it since it applies to the fairly specific use an object action which uses an action). If fast hands worked with those magic items they would still take just as long to use they would just use a bonus action.


However to be fair I also thought that having separate skills for use magic device and use psionic device back in 3e was dumb so that probably influences me here (I think all items can be covered by the same over arching rules though of course not everybody can use every item).

Also outside of the thief is there any other reason to separate those actions? Does it actually make a difference? This was only done to prevent its use with fast hands which is probably not even warranted.

[djreynolds]

Agreed, the Assissins 'free critical' ability is very meh. Unless you scout way in advance of the party, or have a stealth oriented party, surprise is unlikely to ever happen. You certainly can scout way out front, and I've seen that use as a way to try and kite the enemy back to where the party is waiting. But if you get caught alone when you're trying that, you're going to have a very bad day.

So very true, assassin looks great on paper.

I just became a thief instead of an assassin. I think assassin actually is better paired with a warlock, wizard, to get spells to ensure "surprise" and how often are you dropping that bomb on your enemies. Perhaps solo missions or with a party who can keep up.

The thief, IMO saves the wizard or bard from having to waste spells on scouting and stealth. The thief and arcane trickster are very good. I like the arcane trickster mixed with wizard too for a better spell selection for getting into places. But a thief can really lay down pain, can confidently get to place, plenty of feats. Leave disguises to warlocks and bards.

To play thief, two weapon fighting is nice. Archery is okay, but no use for your bonus action.

[steppedonad4]

What's so great about the arcane trickster? I must be missing something because I really don't think it's very good.

[Mara]

What's so great about the arcane trickster? I must be missing something because I really don't think it's very good.

They get some cunning action expansion with mage hand which is a cantrip. They get other cantrips. They can eventually use mage hand to give them sneak attacks. They also have slot spells.

IMMO: Out of 3.5, PF, and 5e; 5e has the best arcane trickster.

[HidesHisEyes]

I have a level 7 Thief in my group (I'm DM) and he's always held his own and saved the whole party on several occasions. A lot of that is due to Rogue being a very solid class in general. However, between Cunning Action, Second Story Work, Expertise in Acrobatics and Athletics and a Ring of Jumping (which I ruled stacks with SSW), the character is insanely mobile and hard to pin down. He once jumped clean over a hydra to get to a dying PC and stabilize him. The cimb speed ability has come up quite often, to the point where he almost acts like a quadruped. He also plays in a very daredevil-esque style and is usually the one who does the most dangerous, flamboyant and high risk - high reward moves.

He's basically the Prince of Persia.



I think you're the winner of this thread.

[steppedonad4]

They get some cunning action expansion with mage hand which is a cantrip. They get other cantrips. They can eventually use mage hand to give them sneak attacks. They also have slot spells.

Meh. Still don't see why everyone says it's so great. I'd rather play a thief than a trickster.

[Mara]

Meh. Still don't see why everyone says it's so great. I'd rather play a thief than a trickster.

Both have their place. AT is great for being a magic rogue. Thief is just great for being a rogue.

[steppedonad4]

Both have their place. AT is great for being a magic rogue. Thief is just great for being a rogue.

I get that, but what I'm saying is that there seems to be a prevailing attitude that the trickster is far and away the most powerful rogue sub-class. And I just don't see why that is. Moreover, the same people tend to say that the thief is the least powerful. Again, just not seeing it. Mechanically, the thief is very versatile and their 17th ability is arguably one of the best, allowing for two possible sneak attacks with advantage in a surprise round.

[JellyPooga]

I get that, but what I'm saying is that there seems to be a prevailing attitude that the trickster is far and away the most powerful rogue sub-class. And I just don't see why that is. Moreover, the same people tend to say that the thief is the least powerful. Again, just not seeing it. Mechanically, the thief is very versatile and their 17th ability is arguably one of the best, allowing for two possible sneak attacks with advantage in a surprise round.

It basically comes down to the "Magic > Mundane" argument. Arcane Tricksters get spells which are versatile, powerful and straight up better than anything a "mundane" can do (e.g. Knock beats even Expertise with Thieves Tools and max Dex for opening a lock, if you ignore the noise and limited usage). The Thief does not. It's that simple.

Personally I think the Thief is still the best Rogue Archetype in the game.
- The Assassin is not my cup of tea thematically and it's abilities are quite limited; if versatility = power, then the Assassin is weak.
- The Arcane Trickster has a definitive advantage with magic, but it makes him a short lived candle; once he's out of spell slots he's done. A bright torch, but fast burning.
- The Swashbuckler is just a melee guy. If I want a melee guy, I'll play a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin (probably). Pass.
- The Mastermind I like quite a lot, but it suffers a little bit from being a bit of an NPC Class; I can imagine using it for my own NPCs as a GM, but I can't see getting that much fun out of it as a PC.

The Thief, on the other hand, is versatile with Fast Hands and UMD, mobile with 2nd-story Work and Supreme Sneak and has the absolute best "archetype capstone" with Thief's Reflexes. The Thief doesn't really get any combat buffs until 17th, which is why it's slated as weak. It's not weak, it's just not a combat class, although the rest of the party will be glad of your Fast Hands when you're trying to make a fighting-retreat through a locked door after a hard days fighting and everyone's out of spell slots.

[Mara]

I get that, but what I'm saying is that there seems to be a prevailing attitude that the trickster is far and away the most powerful rogue sub-class. And I just don't see why that is. Moreover, the same people tend to say that the thief is the least powerful. Again, just not seeing it. Mechanically, the thief is very versatile and their 17th ability is arguably one of the best, allowing for two possible sneak attacks with advantage in a surprise round.

Oh that's just forums being forums. Gratuitously wrong opinions can/will be stated as divine truths.

[CNagy]

- The Swashbuckler is just a melee guy. If I want a melee guy, I'll play a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin (probably). Pass.

The most unexpected (or least mentioned) fun of the Swashbucker is how you become a charm-machine at level 9 and a super charm-machine at level 11. With expertise in Persuasion and a minimum 10 on the skill roll, you're beating a lot of creatures/people in a contest against their Insight. In battle this translates to one of the very few true tanking abilities, but out of battle it makes you the Social King of Persuasion, charming people left and right. And while a spell like charm person lets the target know they were subject to magic, the only magic the Swashbuckler uses is the magic of his magnetic personality and rakish charm.

[unwise]

I play in a swashbuckling campaign, if the thief can't use their bonus action to prone, restrain, blind or at least get advantage on an enemy, or fly across the battlefield they are doing it wrong. There is always a chandelier to drop on people, a bag of flour to throw in their face, a rug to pull out from under them, or oil to pour on the stairway. Maybe it is the nature of our campaign and the fact a DM in a swashbuckling campaign needs to be permissive, but I would not trade a super-cunning-action for the world.

[Shaofoo]

I think being able to be attuned to any magic item could be great, imagine being able to wield the Holy Avenger and wear the Robe of the Archmagi at the same time.

Some special macguffin requires a special person to be attuned to it and requires a long trip to find this person, just let the thief hold his hands over it and it is the same thing.

Or more practically, being able to use those wands and staves without requiring a magic guy.

[The Shadowdove]

Okay,

I'm rolling a Wood-Elf Villain npc to try this out.

I rolled-
17
16
14
13
9
9


How to best allocate these stats?

I think

str 9
dex 17 + 2 racial
con 14
int 14
wis 9 + 1 racial
cha 16

My only problem being strength...how much would my Jump suffer with a -1?



-Dove

[JellyPooga]

str 9
dex 17 + 2 racial
con 14
int 14
wis 9 + 1 racial
cha 16

My only problem being strength...how much would my Jump suffer with a -1?

It depends on what level he is.

3rd level Thief Archetype, his jump distance (running jump) is STR score + DEX mod = 9+4= 13ft, which is the same as most anyone else with STR:13.

The Ability Score Array you've got there looks fine, except you appear to have given him two 14's instead of a 14 and a 13. Personally I might be tempted to shuffle Dex, Wis, Int and Cha, but it depends on how much of a "talker" you want this villain to be. With only Wis:10 he's going to be fairly vulnerable to spellslingers; Hold Person could very well take him out of a fight entirely.

I'd go with:

Str: 9
Dex: 16+2=18
Con: 13
Int: 9
Wis: 17+1=18
Cha: 14

I'd pick up Resilient (Con) at 4th, bumping that 13 to 14 and giving the very valuable Con Save Proficiency.

He's got very good Dex and Wis. With appropriate proficiencies, he's more than adequate a talker with a 14 in Cha and you can play that Int 9 as him being the typical "evil mastermind" that comes up with horrifically overcomplicated plans that have some fatal flaw in them for the PC's to discover and thwart him.

[Rixitichil]

It is worth noting being able to deploy caltrops/ball bearings/beartraps as a minor action is fairly useful. The key here is that with the right mobile party you can retreat or hit and run, locking doors to slow pursuers and eventually leading your foes into traps.

[Soarel]

It's a great traditional rogue. The problem is you don't need the traditional roles any more.

Thief rogue is the same as a healing cleric. It's viable, but you don't need a healing cleric any more, so you might as well pick something cooler.


As I've said time and time again, it all depends on how you run the game. It's just like when people say that INT sucks in 5e. Depends on how you run the game. When I DM, I do a lot of lore/knowledge check type stuff because I'm huge into worldbuilding, lost knowledge, ancient ruins, exploration etc. So INT isn't a dump stat for my group.

My most recent campaign involves a lot of situations which a thief rogue would be very useful in. Same with a healing cleric last time.

[JellyPooga]

It's a great traditional rogue. The problem is you don't need the traditional roles any more.

Thief rogue is the same as a healing cleric. It's viable, but you don't need a healing cleric any more, so you might as well pick something cooler.

As I've said time and time again, it all depends on how you run the game.

My most recent campaign involves a lot of situations which a thief rogue would be very useful in.

I have to agree with Soarel on this point.

The "traditional" Thief might not be necessary, but who's to say it isn't cool? What makes an Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler "cooler" than the Thief? If they're all viable (regardless of to what degree), then it's how the player plays that character that makes it "cool", not the class features.

[MeeposFire]

Thieves are cool and they do get one attribute that I think martial type characters should get which is the ability to use items better than most anybody else. I like that idea. Rogues use tools it makes sense that they would be really good at using them.

The trick is to give them quality tools to use.

[Hawkstar]

- The Swashbuckler is just a melee guy. If I want a melee guy, I'll play a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin (probably). Pass.But unlike other melee guys, this one can speak with an authentic British accent!

[Logosloki]

I still have no idea why they decided to limit the AT and EK to spell schools. It seems stupid to me.

Why can't my EK use illusions? Why can't my AT use transmutations?

Laziness. They didn't want to design a spell list for them. Keying them off the wizard tree means that they can add to the subclasses at the expense of making the wizard class more gishable.

Frankly i would have made them half casters with their own spell lists. Creates more work when you are expanding on spells but gives you more control.

[djreynolds]

Arcane trickster, the one I had was a mountain dwarf, I would grab misty step, mirror image, invisibility and wreak havoc in combat in medium armor. Remember you can also trade out spells as well. Levitate, gaseous form. And you can sneak attack. Shield spell is awesome in combat, you can snag that.
You do not have to have a high dex score with him or play the prototypical rogue. Two short swords is just fine or get a shield proficiency from another class and go shield master coupled with expertise athletics. I find spells that mimic stealth and getting into places and then focus on strength.

Thief is great, but you must be in the right party. Stealth with a barbarian and have him start combat and then come in and get your sneak attacks. In fact I find thief should mimic a two-weapon dex fighter, and if you land that first hit and get your sneak attack then bonus action disengage, move out and allow the enemy to chase you. And if they give chase you have uncanny dodge so you can half damage on one of his attacks and your buddy will get an AoO. Thief is so good at their skills that the wizard can just concentrate on killing stuff.

[PoeticDwarf]

Hey everyone,

In almost ever instance/game I've seen or played, the thief is always an assassin, arcane trickster, or swashbuckler. Both seem solid archetypes with a very distinct playstyles. As is the thief, I imagine, given the very different bonuses.

My questions are:


1) Is the thief just so much less useful in combat that all of the non-combat related bonuses aren't worth it?

2) What kind of uses does a thief specifically bring to the party?

3) How do you capitalize on their abilities? (in/out of combat)

4) When would you prefer a thief over a swashbuckler/assassin/arcane trickster?

5) What are some cool thief tricks?

6) Tell us some stories of your experiences with thieves!

7) Anything else you'd like to contribute.

Note: This is a 'class' related question. However, feel free to post race specific contributions/theories and/or builds if you'd like.

Thanks in advance. I really look forward to learning some more from your answers, as always.


-Dove

Assassin is just boring if you arent damage focussed and there are players who dont want to use magic. Thief can come in handy so easy choice (escpecially bonus action use object)

[Ketiara]

I have a thief bbg 3champ/14thief that ive given staff of power if theres alot of magic items the thief can be very powerfull

[The Shadowdove]

How do you use an item while wielding a weapon in both hands...

[Coidzor]

How do you use an item while wielding a weapon in both hands...

You can freely remove one hand from the weapon and then put it back, after all.

[The Shadowdove]

You can freely remove one hand from the weapon and then put it back, after all.

Doh, sorry, I meant two weapons at once.

Can you tuck it under your arm while you pull something out of a bag?

Or.. is it the 'tandem' movement such as drawing a weapon..

Meaning, you cannot: draw, attack, cunning object use ALL in one turn without 'dropping' one of your two weapons?

[Coidzor]

Doh, sorry, I meant two weapons at once.

Can you tuck it under your arm while you pull something out of a bag?

Or.. is it the 'tandem' movement such as drawing a weapon..

Meaning, you cannot: draw, attack, cunning object use ALL in one turn without 'dropping' one of your two weapons?

Well, yeah, cunning action and TWF compete for your character's bonus action, so you'd only be able to ever use one of them in any given turn.

I think you might be able to stow one of the weapons using one of one's free object interactions without interfering with one's ability to get off the cunning action though.

[MirddinEmris]

It basically comes down to the "Magic > Mundane" argument. Arcane Tricksters get spells which are versatile, powerful and straight up better than anything a "mundane" can do (e.g. Knock beats even Expertise with Thieves Tools and max Dex for opening a lock, if you ignore the noise and limited usage). The Thief does not. It's that simple.

Personally I think the Thief is still the best Rogue Archetype in the game.
- The Assassin is not my cup of tea thematically and it's abilities are quite limited; if versatility = power, then the Assassin is weak.
- The Arcane Trickster has a definitive advantage with magic, but it makes him a short lived candle; once he's out of spell slots he's done. A bright torch, but fast burning.
- The Swashbuckler is just a melee guy. If I want a melee guy, I'll play a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin (probably). Pass.
- The Mastermind I like quite a lot, but it suffers a little bit from being a bit of an NPC Class; I can imagine using it for my own NPCs as a GM, but I can't see getting that much fun out of it as a PC.

The Thief, on the other hand, is versatile with Fast Hands and UMD, mobile with 2nd-story Work and Supreme Sneak and has the absolute best "archetype capstone" with Thief's Reflexes. The Thief doesn't really get any combat buffs until 17th, which is why it's slated as weak. It's not weak, it's just not a combat class, although the rest of the party will be glad of your Fast Hands when you're trying to make a fighting-retreat through a locked door after a hard days fighting and everyone's out of spell slots.

You forgot about Mage Hand cantrip augmentation. Being able to disable traps, pick locks, pull levers and rob people as bonus action from 30ft is pretty powerful ability (i once robbed BBEG from his Item Of Power with this ability). It was main selling point of AT for me actually. And he has two other cantrips (i think minor illusion is pretty obvious and common choice), so i wouldn't say that AT is done as soon as his spell slots are spent.

Also, as with all other spell casters, with more books he will gain more options.

[steppedonad4]

You forgot about Mage Hand cantrip augmentation. Being able to disable traps, pick locks, pull levers and rob people as bonus action from 30ft is pretty powerful ability (i once robbed BBEG from his Item Of Power with this ability).

I always read that last sentence as meaning that you could move the hand as a bonus action, not use it for various things like picking locks and sleight of hand. Otherwise it not only makes Fast Hands obsolete, it's also far more powerful and versatile than it. This makes me think that it was never intended to be used like that.


Also, as with all other spell casters, with more books he will gain more options.
AT's don't use spellbooks and can't benefit from writing in one.

[MirddinEmris]

I always read that last sentence as meaning that you could move the hand as a bonus action, not use it for various things like picking locks and sleight of hand. Otherwise it not only makes Fast Hands obsolete, it's also far more powerful and versatile than it. This makes me think that it was never intended to be used like that.


AT's don't use spellbooks and can't benefit from writing in one.

It's not obsolete because you need to have mage hand active (and cantrip lasts only one minute and takes action to activate). It's quite a drawback.


In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.


Control, not move.

Not spellbooks. Splatbooks that will give new spells to existing spellists (namely wizard one). That would mean that AT will choose his spells from wider list, meaning better ability to customize.

[Ardantis]

I have to respond to this awesome thread.

I think the Assassin is meant to be a "social" Assassin rather than a "combat" Assassin, and is meant to get surprise against targets in settings in which he is disguised.

This assumes a certain type of campaign, and also assumes targets which are more likely to lose initiative to the Assassin.

The Swashbuckler, on the other hand, with his ability to gain Sneak Attack against isolated opponents, is the "special forces" rogue who culls the stragglers from the herd during a pitched battle.

I still prefer the Thief- in interesting combats with lots of things to interact with / climb on / hide behind, he's extremely versatile and powerful, moreso even than the other Rogues which are ALSO interesting to play just from Cunning Action. Plus this makes feats more powerful as many of them interact with all the cool stuff the Thief can be doing in the battle.

[MirddinEmris]

You can use your action to control the hand. You can
use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlock ed
door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open
container, or pour the contents out o f a vial. You can
move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.


From the description of the spell it's quite clear what "control" actually means. And you can move it for free when you use it. If you need bonus action to move it, it would actually be worse than a spell by itself, so that interpretation doesn't make sense.

[CNagy]

I'd say a major reason to play the Thief Rogue is that once you get Use Magic Device, you grab yourself a scroll case and become an emergency backup spellcaster. Scrolls are completely independent of your Spellcasting ability (or lack thereof), making the Thief the perfect place to park those redundant scrolls found as treasure, random scrolls that aren't in the party spellcaster's spell list, and specific emergency spell scrolls that the party might all chip in to craft during downtime.

[JellyPooga]

You forgot about Mage Hand cantrip augmentation. Being able to disable traps, pick locks, pull levers and rob people as bonus action from 30ft is pretty powerful ability (i once robbed BBEG from his Item Of Power with this ability). It was main selling point of AT for me actually. And he has two other cantrips (i think minor illusion is pretty obvious and common choice), so i wouldn't say that AT is done as soon as his spell slots are spent.

Also, as with all other spell casters, with more books he will gain more options.

Whilst true, my analysis of each Archetype was hardly an in-depth and comprehensive one! Yeas, the AT still has all the usual Rogue goodness going on and his expanded usage of Mage Hand, including free Advantage on attack rolls, is certainly very nice. In my experience and opinion, however, his main thing is spellcasting and as you say, Mage Hand takes an action to get up and running, which is quite the limiting factor. Given that it also has a Verbal component, it's arguably of limited use in a Stealth role and totally useless if Silence is being thrown around.

At the very highest levels of play, whilst the "out of spell slots" AT is activating Mage Hand for want of something better to do with his Archetype, a Thief Rogue has just had two turns. It's the sustainability of the Thief Rogues abilities in the long run compared to the AT's that makes it better in my mind.

[CNagy]

Whilst true, my analysis of each Archetype was hardly an in-depth and comprehensive one! Yeas, the AT still has all the usual Rogue goodness going on and his expanded usage of Mage Hand, including free Advantage on attack rolls, is certainly very nice. In my experience and opinion, however, his main thing is spellcasting and as you say, Mage Hand takes an action to get up and running, which is quite the limiting factor. Given that it also has a Verbal component, it's arguably of limited use in a Stealth role and totally useless if Silence is being thrown around.

At the very highest levels of play, whilst the "out of spell slots" AT is activating Mage Hand for want of something better to do with his Archetype, a Thief Rogue has just had two turns. It's the sustainability of the Thief Rogues abilities in the long run compared to the AT's that makes it better in my mind.

The sidebar on hiding says that noise gives your position away, and cites shouting a warning or knocking over a vase as an example. The game has moved away from Move Silently and towards moving stealthily, with the implication being that you are allowed to make sounds but a successful Stealth vs Perception check means your sounds don't rise above the background noise and stand out enough for your target to notice you. This combined with the Arcane Trickster's ability to ambush people with spells while hiding (something they could not do if verbal components gave away their position, as there are only a handful of spells in their entire spell list that don't have a verbal component, of which half are either rituals or defensive reaction spells) makes a solid case that the Arcane Trickster's spellcasting isn't in conflict with his stealth abilities.

[Mara]

I do not see many situations where the AT runs out of slots. I treat slots on ATs as aces in the whole to be used should the situation require it. The cantrips and archetype features alone are pretty sexy, but they do not really increase action economy like thief and assassin (mage hand is still an action to make and only last a minute). The slots are meant to help close that gap by broadening the amount of situations you can handle efficiently.

The general balance of mundane v caster is not amount of resources, it's that the former gains better action economy.

[JellyPooga]

This...makes a solid case that the Arcane Trickster's spellcasting isn't in conflict with his stealth abilities.

Mileage varies by DM, which is why I said "arguably"; some (including myself) prefer to go with "verbal components don't screw AT's", others go with the "Verbal components have to preclude Stealth, otherwise what's the point of Subtle Spell?" argument (or similar).


I treat slots on ATs as aces in the hole

That's a perfectly valid playstyle, but doesn't invalidate my point.


The general balance of mundane v caster is not amount of resources, it's that the former gains better action economy

As a rule, yes. However, it can't be ignored that spellcasters have those limited resources as well. It's kind of a double-whammy in favour of the Thief (in this particular case).

[KorvinStarmast]

It is worth noting being able to deploy caltrops/ball bearings/beartraps as a minor action is fairly useful. The key here is that with the right mobile party you can retreat or hit and run, locking doors to slow pursuers and eventually leading your foes into traps. 5th edition, minor action?

Do you mean bonus action?

[deathbymanga]

Here's how I play a Thief. PARKOUR MASTER. Jump from walls to attack the enemy from above. steal the enemy's back-up weapon while your fighter disarms their main weapon. Maybe combo your pick-pocketing with Tavern Brawler to steal people's weapons and then throw them into their ally's faces. Also, remember the Thief can use any wand they want. this gives them a lot more combat potential regarding spells than the Arcane Trickster, who has awesome spells, but can't do stuff like fireballs and witch bolt. Not to mention Thieves can use ANY wand. Need a healer? Give the Thief a wand of Cure Wounds. Want to be a pseudo-ranger? Wand of Lightning Arrow.

[Tanarii]

Swashbucklers are Parkour Masters too, with Elegant Maneuver. Maybe even more so.

[CNagy]

Mileage varies by DM, which is why I said "arguably"; some (including myself) prefer to go with "verbal components don't screw AT's", others go with the "Verbal components have to preclude Stealth, otherwise what's the point of Subtle Spell?" argument (or similar).

I just consider those others to have a weak argument. Subtle Spell is for casting spells without tipping someone off that you are the caster, in plain sight or otherwise. If I had a DM (rather than always having to be the DM) who was adamant about verbal components screwing up stealth, I'd have to ask for a character reroll... into a Wizard who shouts all of his verbal components.

[deathbymanga]

Swashbucklers are Parkour Masters too, with Elegant Maneuver. Maybe even more so.


Starting at 13th level, you can use a bonus action to gain advantage on the next dexterity (Acrobatics) or strength (athletics) check you make on your turn.


When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the ability to climb faster than normal; climbing no longer costs extra movement.
In addition, when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier.

I guess it depends on the scenario I guess. SSW only works on long-jumps, so its not like its completely better (wish it also included standing jumps too), however EM only really gives you better odds, it doesn't improve the way you move around like SSW does. I guess if you plan on pulling off super-daring feats, it'd be better to have EM, but if you just need to move around a lot better, then SSW is the better option.

Also, remember EMcomes at level 13, while SSW comes at 3rd, so you'll likely be jumping around a lot more often this way

[Coffee_Dragon]

SSW only works on long-jumps

Not as written. It works on running jumps, and the poorly written rules on high jumping allow you to jump higher with a running start.

[deathbymanga]

Not as written. It works on running jumps, and the poorly written rules on high jumping allow you to jump higher with a running start.

sorry, meant to say Running, not long jumps. but you still have to be moving around first. Would prefer it if Standing Jumps were also included

[huttj509]

I just consider those others to have a weak argument. Subtle Spell is for casting spells without tipping someone off that you are the caster, in plain sight or otherwise. If I had a DM (rather than always having to be the DM) who was adamant about verbal components screwing up stealth, I'd have to ask for a character reroll... into a Wizard who shouts all of his verbal components.

DRAGON SLAVE! FIREBALL! </Lina Inverse>

[MeeposFire]

Here's how I play a Thief. PARKOUR MASTER. Jump from walls to attack the enemy from above. steal the enemy's back-up weapon while your fighter disarms their main weapon. Maybe combo your pick-pocketing with Tavern Brawler to steal people's weapons and then throw them into their ally's faces. Also, remember the Thief can use any wand they want. this gives them a lot more combat potential regarding spells than the Arcane Trickster, who has awesome spells, but can't do stuff like fireballs and witch bolt. Not to mention Thieves can use ANY wand. Need a healer? Give the Thief a wand of Cure Wounds. Want to be a pseudo-ranger? Wand of Lightning Arrow.

Wands are useful but one thing that limits their potential (at least in terms of having a bunch of them for a bunch of situations) but remember most if not all wands require you to attune to them in order to use them. I forget how long it takes to attune an item but unless it is really short remember each wand reduces your ability to use other awesome items as well.

This is a big reason why I don't think using magic items with fast hands is not too powerful because of the many opportunity costs.

[Steampunkette]

The Thief is a ton of fun, if you walk into it with the correct mindset.

Sure, you won't be flinging out massive damage attacks. But that's not your role in combat. The Thief Rogue is the battlefield manager.

Sure, the Battlemaster fighter can move her troops around, or order them to attack her targets. But the Rogue can change the -battlefield- on a moment's notice by using Fast Hands to activate or deactivate traps while still fighting. She can use her movement options to change elevation and force enemies into compromising positions. She can swoop in to save the Casters with a well-timed backstab or a theft of a major item from an enemy.

It's the Thief's job to apply noncombat skills, unconventional thinking, and the environment to the detriment of her enemies. And if the GM knows that's the kind of character you're playing and the kind of thing you want out of the game they'll usually give you some nifty options with ad-hoc combat additions.

Look for the thing any character could do (Chandelier Swing, Knocking Pillars Down, Slamming a Portcullis, all on top of enemies) and do it with bonus actions and readied actions that gain some minor bonus because it's how you, as an atypical combat character, contribute.

[deathbymanga]

The Thief is a ton of fun, if you walk into it with the correct mindset.

Sure, you won't be flinging out massive damage attacks. But that's not your role in combat. The Thief Rogue is the battlefield manager.

Sure, the Battlemaster fighter can move her troops around, or order them to attack her targets. But the Rogue can change the -battlefield- on a moment's notice by using Fast Hands to activate or deactivate traps while still fighting. She can use her movement options to change elevation and force enemies into compromising positions. She can swoop in to save the Casters with a well-timed backstab or a theft of a major item from an enemy.

It's the Thief's job to apply noncombat skills, unconventional thinking, and the environment to the detriment of her enemies. And if the GM knows that's the kind of character you're playing and the kind of thing you want out of the game they'll usually give you some nifty options with ad-hoc combat additions.

Look for the thing any character could do (Chandelier Swing, Knocking Pillars Down, Slamming a Portcullis, all on top of enemies) and do it with bonus actions and readied actions that gain some minor bonus because it's how you, as an atypical combat character, contribute.

one problem with this is that there's very few traps in the DMG, and no DC on how to craft them with the Tinker Tools. Would love to be able to rig up a trap in the middle of battle

[Steampunkette]

Talk with your GM before the game, get some DCs set up. Work with him to create new traps.

WARNING: This method gives your DM new traps!

[deathbymanga]

Talk with your GM before the game, get some DCs set up. Work with him to create new traps.

WARNING: This method gives your DM new traps!

Not very creative when it comes to mechanics like that, got any d20 suggestions people used back in 3.5's days?

[Ardantis]

Back in 3.5, we just played that Trapsmith Prestige Class for Ranger/Rogue.

Anyways, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I second Steampunkette's description of what a Thief is and does. I think that style of play is way cooler than the AT or the Assassin.

Still love the Swashbuckler and not sure about the Mastermind.

[deathbymanga]

Back in 3.5, we just played that Trapsmith Prestige Class for Ranger/Rogue.

Anyways, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I second Steampunkette's description of what a Thief is and does. I think that style of play is way cooler than the AT or the Assassin.

Still love the Swashbuckler and not sure about the Mastermind.


Befuddler:
A pungent spray applies a –2 penalty on Concentration checks, as well as ability checks and skill checks based on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (Will negates) .

Enfeebler:
A puff of acrid powder renders the target fatigued (Fortitude negates) .

Entangler:
A hidden cord loops around the target, holding it in place as a tanglefoot bag does . A successful Reflex save negates the effect; alternatively, a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check (made as a full-round action) allows the stuck creature to break free .

Equalizer:
The first creature entering the trapped square must succeed on a Reflex save or fall prone . The trap reputedly gets its name from its gnome inventor, who used it to bring taller foes down to his level.

Flashbang:
The trapped square emits a blinding burst of light accompanied by a loud thunderclap . Any creature in the trapped square or any adjacent square becomes blinded and deafened; a successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to dazzled .

Footspiker:
This trap effectively fills the designated square with caltrops, potentially slowing the target’s movement (PH 126) .

Glitterburst:
A fine cloud of silver dust clings to any creature within the trapped square (no save) . Any creature affected by a glitterburst trap takes a –20 penalty on Hide checks and, if invisible, is visibly outlined for the duration of the effect .

Scorcher:
The trapped square releases a cloud of fine dust followed by a spark, setting off a small explosion that deals 2d6 points of fire damage to each creature in that square (Reflex half) .

Scorcher, Great:
This works like a scorcher trap (see above), except that it deals 5d6 points of fire damage to each creature in the trapped square and in all adjacent squares (Reflex half) .

Sleeper:
A slumber-inducing vapor makes the target fall asleep . A successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to fatigued .

Spiderweb:
The trapped square releases a burst of sticky tendrils that toughen when they contact air . This trap duplicates the effect of a web spell, except that the strands fill only the trapped square and all adjacent squares .

Stinkburst:
A cloud of noxious vapors duplicates the effect of a stinking cloud spell, except that the effect fills only the trapped square . A successful Fortitude save negates the effect, but a creature must make a new saving throw each round it remains within the cloud .


these are all that exist in Complete Scoundrel. Not a lot transfer that well over to 5e

[JoeJ]

these are all that exist in Complete Scoundrel. Not a lot transfer that well over to 5e

Most of those could probably be adapted with a little work. Just off the top of my head, I'd guess that creating something like that would require proficiency in the appropriate artisan tools (or a contact to buy it ready made), and then setting it as a trap would use proficiency in thieves' tools.

As a DM I'd probably introduce these that by using them against the party first, then provide the opportunity for any interested PC to learn how to do the same, or to invent something of equivalent power if they're feeling creative and have the right proficiencies.