3.Pf: How important are maneuver prerequisites for keeping tome of battle balanced?

[Da Beast]

I've loved the idea of Tome of Battle since it came out but my gaming group fell apart a little after its release so I've never gotten a chance to play it until now. I'm playing a Warblade/Scout in a fairly high powered gestalt game and the maneuver prereq system seems kind of silly. According to WotC rulings on maneuver swapping the system is incredibly permissive and gets even sillier when you consider the possibility of buying a novice level crown of white ravens (or another schools' equivalent) and only throwing it on at level ups to have one more maneuver for the purpose of prereqs. I can hit lvl 18 with three diamond mind maneuvers, throw on my ring of diamond mind to bring it up to 4, swap one of my maneuvers out for time stands still and have picked up a maneuver with a four maneuvers known requirement despite now only knowing two other maneuvers from the same school. This system seems like a poorly designed headache that forces me to plan my maneuvers out from 1 to 20 at character creation without adding much to the actual game. My DM is willing to just let me ignore them altogether but he doesn't have the best sense of balance and has never played with ToB before so I feel like it falls on me to keep things in line. Obviously this will let me pick up the best powers from each school with little forethought, but is that enough to break my character?

[ComaVision]

I don't think it "breaks" anything but it depends on your peer group. If the other players are all Tier 1 casters then you could use the extra edge. If the next strongest character is a Monk//Ninja then you're already too powerful.

[OldTrees1]

The maneuvers known prerequisites were intended as the structure/skeleton for balancing maneuvers(along with IL prerequisites). It was intended to result in forcing the initiator to have some lower level maneuvers readied(with that lower level increasing in level as the initiator increased in level). This premise (plus WotC's poor ability to balance) then informed how they would design each maneuver(see Mountain Hammer's 9th being much weaker than the other 9ths).

So theoretically, if WotC had produced content that lived up to their balance system, then ignoring prerequisites(including RAW methods like that Ring jumpstarting) would break your character.

However if you find it a headache, then I suggest fulfilling the spirit of the rules(don't have only the highest level of maneuvers readied) while ignoring prerequisites.

[Da Beast]

I don't think it "breaks" anything but it depends on your peer group. If the other players are all Tier 1 casters then you could use the extra edge. If the next strongest character is a Monk//Ninja then you're already too powerful.

Fair point. The idea behind our "campaign" is that the whole gaming group constitutes an adventurers guild where anyone can right adventures to DM at any level and whatever character the players want to play signs up for the adventure, whether it be characters that have grouped before, characters that have been played in different adventures, or just something entirely new a player wants to try out. That being said we'll probably end up with a few fairly consistent groups since we want to have parties where everyone is at the same level. This particular character has only played in one adventure so far with a party of an Unchained Monk/Cleric who could obviously overshadow me but the player lacks the skill to make that happen and a secondary Unchained Summoner/Sorcerer character I rolled up when our forth member couldn't make it. I'm not sure if I'll use the Summoner in other adventures but either way I don't plan on playing two characters at the same time in a normal session.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh, they seem pretty arbitrary and the IL limits already put a cap on how many high level maneuvers you can know. Removing them seems fine.

[Snowbluff]

Meh, they seem pretty arbitrary and the IL limits already put a cap on how many high level maneuvers you can know. Removing them seems fine.

*nods* The require maneuvers give the fluff of being specialized into a school, but you have school restrictions already and feats to specialize with.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Having requirements serves a balance purpose more for limiting your ability to cherry pick the very best maneuvers from every discipline, more than it serves for balancing the individual maneuvers. But, that is an important thing to have, because the maneuvers' power levels vary wildly and while some disciplines are clear winners and losers, the love is at least somewhat spread out.

Even aside from that concern, I would not get rid of requirements entirely. Even just having one or two known forms enough of a dis-incentive to keep people from just buying a crown of the white ravens type item and getting instant access to a top-tier maneuver like WR Tactics or IH Surge. You could certainly lower the number required for some that are laughably high for a not-so-great maneuver, and maybe increase them for the really strong ones that have one or none required.

[Da Beast]

Well I took the time to work out a 20 level progression and was able to fit in most everything I wanted accept for the mountain hammer line. I'll end up with Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Pouncing Charge, Quicksilver Motion, Swooping Dragon Strike, Adamantine Hurricane, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Time Stands Still, Mountain Tombstone Strike, and Raging Mongoose with punishing stance, blood in the water, press the advantage, and swarm tactics for feats and everything I'll be taking and trading out along the way seems useful enough. Hopefully after playing this character I'll have a better perspective on things and will be able to make better calls regarding ToB in the future.