Easy Access to Animal/Monster Poisons?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

So, I'm working ona Duskblade who utilizes poisons. There's some minor feat investments and a love of skill point investment for a skill point starved class. I'd like to be able to make the most out of it.

I've already heard about the Minor Creation rules and I'll be using to make level appropriate poison when my craft (poisonmaking) skill is high enough. There won't be any Black Lotus Extract for a while.

What I'm looing at now are poisons derived from animals or monsters. Many of the best poison come from large (or bigger) vermin (scorpions, centipedes, megapede, etc.). Are there any ways to get access to these poisons easily/cheaply? I'd rather not be paying 3,000+gp for a single dose of mildly effective poison at higher levels.

[FocusWolf413]

Beat the monsters, strip 'em down, tie 'em up, and put them in the hole!

[pieman2945]

This is in reference to my Half Ogre, Half Minotaur grappler who liked to keep hogtied enemies in an enveloping pit- renamed "The Dungeon," of course. Fun campaign. But seriously, ask your DM about extracting poison from live animals. Not sure if there are any rules for such.

[FocusWolf413]

God that was a fun campaign.

For those who don't know, the party was a Minotogre luchador, a bearded lady warlock... thing, a sorcerer who blinded himself, and a tibbit psion.

I was running an adventure where an invisible Lovecraftian thing was rampaging around a city. I made the mistake of statting it. Pieman's character wrestled the spawn of Yog Sothoth into submission and made an invisible wrestling outfit out of its hide. The psion charmed a chaos beast. About 30 random people were wrestled into unconsciousness, stripped, and thrown into the dungeon.

The best part is that the mayor liked these guys more than the church of Pelor.

[pieman2945]

You're forgetting the sexy torture dungeon, the cult we started around the cat and our gnome friend. And what I did to the tavern door.

[FocusWolf413]

I was trying to remain PG 13, but yes, it was a sex dungeon with an orgy cult dedicated to the tibbit psion.

The gnome friend was a friendly neighborhood assassin sent by the thieves' guild to watch them and take care of them if they stepped out of line. He hid in the Luchador's shadow.

Sorry for derailing this.

[WhamBamSam]

Hidden Talent will get you access to the Psionic version of Minor Creation in case you were going to try picking it up via Arcane Disciple or something similarly awkward on your Duskblade.

If your party has a Druid in it, their Fleshraker will be a source of pretty decent poison (especially as it probably scales with the thing's HD). There are rules for milking poisons from creatures in Complete Scoundrel or one of the Underdark/Drow books or something. Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar are also decent on a Duskblade, so you might be able to acquire your own living poison factory that way.

[Gnorman]

If you haven't already read Arsenic and Old Lace - The Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), I recommend doing so. A sea snake familiar might be your best bet at lower levels.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Hidden Talent will get you access to the Psionic version of Minor Creation in case you were going to try picking it up via Arcane Disciple or something similarly awkward on your Duskblade.

If your party has a Druid in it, their Fleshraker will be a source of pretty decent poison (especially as it probably scales with the thing's HD). There are rules for milking poisons from creatures in Complete Scoundrel or one of the Underdark/Drow books or something. Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar are also decent on a Duskblade, so you might be able to acquire your own living poison factory that way.

I have a dorje of Minor Creation and enough ranks in Use Psionic Device to use it so long as I"m not rushed or in combat. That being said, Minor Creation in only for non-living vegetable matter. I'm asking about animal poison (ie: venom from living or dead creatures).

No party druid but I have invested in a warbeast lizard that has strength depleting poison.


If you haven't already read Arsenic and Old Lace - The Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), I recommend doing so. A sea snake familiar might be your best bet at lower levels.

I have, but nothing in the book refers to a simple fashion of getting animal venoms that are effective at higher levels. Minor Creation is good for Black Lotus Extract and several other vegetable poisons, but most have DC's that are too low to be useful after mid-high level. When you start hitting level 12+ almost every poison under 4,000gp/dose is going to be effective less that 10% of the time (creatures that are immune + high fort save opponents + lucky rolls).

I would rather not look back at the build later down the road and think that a feat(s) to permit the use of poison were wasted and/or a poor investment.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I have, but nothing in the book refers to a simple fashion of getting animal venoms that are effective at higher levels. Minor Creation is good for Black Lotus Extract and several other vegetable poisons, but most have DC's that are too low to be useful after mid-high level. When you start hitting level 12+ almost every poison under 4,000gp/dose is going to be effective less that 10% of the time (creatures that are immune + high fort save opponents + lucky rolls).

I would rather not look back at the build later down the road and think that a feat(s) to permit the use of poison were wasted and/or a poor investment.
One option is handle animal. The Bestow Poison trick is in Drow of the Underdark. You'll also need access to good animals though, which is up to your DM. You'll either have to buy them or charm them with spells or Wild Empathy.
Wild Shape is probably the best option, if you can get a party member that has it. Some of the plant shapes have really nasty poisons.
By RAW you can also get poison from summons (SNA with Child of Winter is a decent option), but your DM could also rule that it disappears when the summon ends.

If you want to use poison effectively at higher levels you're going to need to invest in DC boosters - Assassination weapon, Poison Expert, Venomous Strike and the like.
You should also look into ways to lower your targets save. A bard with Doomspeak is by far the best at it, but inflicting the shaken or sickened condition is a pretty good start that most classes can accomplish somehow.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

If you want to use poison effectively at higher levels you're going to need to invest in DC boosters - Assassination weapon, Poison Expert, Venomous Strike and the like.
You should also look into ways to lower your targets save. A bard with Doomspeak is by far the best at it, but inflicting the shaken or sickened condition is a pretty good start that most classes can accomplish somehow.

All good suggestions. What do you think would work best with a Duskblade build?

[sleepyphoenixx]

All good suggestions. What do you think would work best with a Duskblade build?

Duskblades sadly don't have access to that many options.
I'd just take Poison Spell and Obtain Familair for a Sea Snake (SW).
Then retrain or reform the snake's feat to Ability Focus (Poison) and buff its Con. That gets you a poison DC of 14 + whatever Con bonus you manage to get. A DC 20 isn't that hard to attain by combining different bonus types, and a lot of those spells are low level so you can get them on Eternal Wands if no one in your party has them.

To lower saves Fell Frighten (and a metamagic reducer) applies Shaken without a save or costing more actions. There's also the Demoralize route (Intimidate + Fearsome armor + Never Outnumbered skill trick) and the Dreadful Wrath feat.

Use Poison Spell with Chill Touch or full attack channeling to get the most out of your poison. That's a pretty low investment for a good effect.
For more you can use an Assassination weapon for 2 doses of poison per hit and a DC boost on one of them, but it's less efficient.

If you want more you can get an Improved Familiar - they get DC 14 poison before Ability Focus and Virulent Poison and have the feats to retrain/reform to get both, so you'll have DC 18 poison before Con boosts. Then you can get an Assassination weapon instead of using Poison Spell to increase the DC even more. Get Toxic too to get more out of your poison.
If you can get Sneak Attack (Martial Stance or dip) you can take Venomous Strike for another +2 to DC.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

~snip~

To lower saves Fell Frighten (and a metamagic reducer) applies Shaken without a save or costing more actions.

~snip~

Then you can get an Assassination weapon instead of using Poison Spell to increase the DC even more. Get Toxic too to get more out of your poison.

If you can get Sneak Attack (Martial Stance or dip) you can take Venomous Strike for another +2 to DC.

I had completely forgotten about the Fell metamagic feats. I do so love them. That's not a bad idea at all.

When you say a metamagic reducer, do you mean an item or a feat? The character is already a little feat starved, but Fell Frighten or Fell Drain would be a good ivestment and I can squeeze Easy Metamagic in if I drop a feat from the build.

The Assassination weapon is already in the inventory. I took a dip into spellthief, though I'm not sure I'll take Venomous Strike; it's likely my equipment will a better job of upping the DC then that would.

[Rubik]

Boost the hell out of Handle Animal and buy a titanic war beast poison dart frog.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is 3rd party, but Kingdoms of Kalamar Player Guide had rules for adjusting poisons, including raising their save DCs. It spiked the cost but ration spells bypass that.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

This is 3rd party, but Kingdoms of Kalamar Player Guide had rules for adjusting poisons, including raising their save DCs. It spiked the cost but ration spells bypass that.

I'm trying to stay away from 3rd party material. My current DM is pretty cool but, should I want to play it in a different campaign, it'd be best for me to keep my option pure WotC content.


Boost the hell out of Handle Animal and buy a titanic war beast poison dart frog.

Not the animal I was thinking of but, yes, that's one route I'm considering: high handle animal and a few pets that over varying poison.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not the animal I was thinking of but, yes, that's one route I'm considering: high handle animal and a few pets that over varying poison.

If you get your poison from a creature what i said concerning familiars applies equally. Boost their Con and reform their feats and you can easily get a +8 or more to the DC without spending any of your own feats. The Assassination weapon on top of that should result in a decent save even when using lower HD animals.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

If you get your poison from a creature what i said concerning familiars applies equally. Boost their Con and reform their feats and you can easily get a +8 or more to the DC without spending any of your own feats. The Assassination weapon on top of that should result in a decent save even when using lower HD animals.

The only issue I have with this is I don't know the rules about altering a familiar feats or stats. I've never really played with a familiar before. I'll need to do some research.