Touch of Golden Ice, Increasing the Save DC?

[Yogibear41]

I am working on a natural attack based paladin, and was considering picking this feat up. At low levels it seems amazing, but is there anyway to boost the save DC past 14? Maybe ability focus to bump it up a little bit more, but other than that I have no idea how to make this still good at higher levels.

[Rubik]

I am working on a natural attack based paladin, and was considering picking this feat up. At low levels it seems amazing, but is there anyway to boost the save DC past 14? Maybe ability focus to bump it up a little bit more, but other than that I have no idea how to make this still good at higher levels.The only way to increase the DC aside from Ability Focus is the saint template, as far as I know. Ravage is a specific metaphysical substance, and the DC is set. So unless you want Ability Focus and the saint template, you're out of luck, barring homebrew stuff.

Though there's an epic feat that increases item saving throw DCs by your casting ability modifier, so if you make an item that produces Touch of Golden Ice, there's that.

[daremetoidareyo]

Become an aberration and hang out with a bard that has music of the outer spheres.

I think I have a build hanging out somewhere of a druid/bard that can wildshape into a mind leech (from fiend folio) so he can hang out in your head, and sing right into your brain, while casting from inside your head. I'll go through the build database later.

[Shalist]

Keep in mind that the (charisma-based) damage scales rather nicely, potentially 1-shotting or crippling even fairly powerful enemies when it does land; also, the more swings / round you have, the more opportunities there are for someone to critically fail a save, meaning it does become more reliable as you level as well. Still not awesome, but not bad for a melee feat.

I'd recommend writing its feeble save DC off as a lost cause altogether though, spending feats / etc. on increasing your attacks / round instead.

Alternately, there's the non-epic enhance item feat:


Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.

Sprucing up a 'ring of affliction' (BoED 115, 72,000g) or similar item every so often could provide you with what you're looking for.

[Necroticplague]

I don't even think Ability Focus works/is needed. The feat doesn't say that it has a DC to even increase, which seems to mean it just flat-out does the damage with each touch.

[ericgrau]

Yeah I'd mostly rely on lots of attacks and low enemy rolls rather than hoping a single hit will work. Though boosting the DC isn't a total loss. Making a foe fail on a 3 instead of a 1 is a pretty huge deal for this spamming strategy. Monster save bonuses tend to be around their CR so any DC higher than your level is not a lost cause.

Plus worst case scenario you still deal damage. All of the above is why rider effects are far more powerful than they seem. Just as 1d6 damage sucks but +1d6 damage does not suck.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also talk to your DM. I have seen it argued that Touch of Golden Ice the feat is a supernatural ability and thus should have a save DC of 10+1/2HD+Cha modifier. He may agree.

[Bronk]

Also talk to your DM. I have seen it argued that Touch of Golden Ice the feat is a supernatural ability and thus should have a save DC of 10+1/2HD+Cha modifier. He may agree.

I agree with this. The feat is a supernatural ability because all exalted feats are supernatural (BoED p39). Because of that, all abilities keying to that have their saves scale.

The rules are in the SRD here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

They are also in the Rules Compendium on page 119.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I personally subscribe to it to keep the feat relevant into the late game. Many exalted feats stink so I see no problem giving them some love.

[Jowgen]

Ah. It's this argument again. Lets see if I remember the points of contention from last time:

DC-14 argument:
The feat does not mention a save DC, but instead references chapter 3, which contains the only ever printed DC as part of a table. There are no rules mentioned about ravage DCs being variable, so we stick to the table DC.

DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con argument:
As the description states that "Your touch is poisonous", the intent is clearly that this should be treated as a Poison Attack. Creature based poisons have table-entry DCs all the time, but actual DCs vary depending in actual used based on the creature's Con score.

DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha argument:
The text describes exalted feats as Su abilities, which have scaling DCs, but the table only lists a static DC. Therefore, we have a text vs table disagreement, which always are ruled in favor in text. On might argue that the table is more specific that than the text, but as the feat only references the chapter explaining ravages, rather than the table with the DC from that chapter, the general text of the chapter takes precedence.

[Curmudgeon]

As written, Ability Focus generally doesn't work on Touch of Golden Ice.
Ability Focus [General]

Choose one of the creature’s special attacks.
There's nothing in Touch of Golden Ice which explicitly alters the feat holder's attacks to become special attacks.
Benefit: Any evil creature you touch with your bare hand, fist, or natural weapon is ravaged by golden ice (see Ravages and Afflictions for effects). Now, if the character started with a monster stat block which listed special attacks, Touch of Golden Ice wouldn't (presumably) shift the attacks out of that category. But the feat itself doesn't explicitly put them into the category (i.e., doesn't make the attacks special).

[Yogibear41]

Ah. It's this argument again. Lets see if I remember the points of contention from last time:


Sorry to reopen old wounds :smallfrown:

I was going to dump Charisma and just take serenity, but this makes me reconsider doing something with that 8 charisma.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry to reopen old wounds :smallfrown:

I was going to dump Charisma and just take serenity, but this makes me reconsider doing something with that 8 charisma.

It was me who opened that door. Jowgen's excellent summary of the arguments can be presented to your DM for evaluation.

No matter what getting a high number of natural attacks is a solid choice for Touch of Golden Ice.

Edit: I know of no way by RAW to avoid Touch of Golden Ice aside from making the save so it can be used as a terrible detect evil.

[Bronk]

DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha argument:
The text describes exalted feats as Su abilities, which have scaling DCs, but the table only lists a static DC. Therefore, we have a text vs table disagreement, which always are ruled in favor in text. On might argue that the table is more specific that than the text, but as the feat only references the chapter explaining ravages, rather than the table with the DC from that chapter, the general text of the chapter takes precedence.

Using charisma for supernatural abilities instead of constitution comes from this line from the SRD:


The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).