Difference between 1 and 2 INT

[Scorponok]

This happened in a campaign I played in a few years ago. Wandering in the woods for some long forgotten reason, the party gets attacked by a pack of wolves summoned by a mid-level pair of druids. The sorcerer successfully plants a Touch of Idiocy spell on one of the wolves. Since the ability score cannot fall below 1, what is suppose to happen? We agreed that an INT 1 animal was pretty much just going on instinct and would not be able to follow any of the druid's commands, wouldn't be able to do pack tactics such as surround an enemy, but would it have stopped attacking? I think eventually the DM ruled that it would attack every other round and sniff at the butts of the other wolves in between that. INT 1 is the same ability score as a snake. I often wonder about what happens with the other low ability scores such as WIS 1 to 5 or CHA 1 to 5.

[Ashtagon]

Touch of idiocy has no effect on an Int 1 creature. Their Int is already as low as the spell can take it.

[Troacctid]

An animal with Int 2 can learn six tricks, where an animal with Int 1 can only learn three, so it still has only animal intelligence, but it's a slightly stupider animal. You'll also impose a penalty on its Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks, as its mod goes from -4 to -5.

[Zanos]

Touch of idiocy has no effect on an Int 1 creature. Their Int is already as low as the spell can take it.
Right, but a wolf has int 2. OP asked how he should treat the difference.

I think your DM was more than fair with his ruling if he made it lose half the actions, but honestly you shouldn't touch of idiocy low int creatures anyway. I would say that if you normally would have the creature move tactically to take advantage of flanking or anything like that, it ceases to do so and just kind of attacks the nearest target. It would also, as Troacctid mentioned, lose access to some of its tricks, which would likely have made it more difficult for the druid to give it orders.

[Necroticplague]

The same as the difference between 11 INT and 10 INT.

[SangoProduction]

The same as the difference between 11 INT and 10 INT.

Except when you go from 2 to 1, that's 50% decrease.
11 to 10 is only about a 9% decrease.

But as far as the mechanical rules go, yes, it's the same. As in it makes no difference. At best, you could argue that it wouldn't be able to pull of pack tactics and flank intentionally.

[Ashtagon]

Except when you go from 2 to 1, that's 50% decrease.
11 to 10 is only about a 9% decrease.

But as far as the mechanical rules go, yes, it's the same. As in it makes no difference. At best, you could argue that it wouldn't be able to pull of pack tactics and flank intentionally.

This. An Int 1 creature has no mechanical disadvantages in combat compared to an Int 2 creature. The only real difference as noted earlier, is in skill tricks. Snakes don't spend every other round sniffing each others' butts either. And not just because they don't have any.

You may as well ask what the difference is between 1 hp and 2 hp.

[Chronos]

Wolves are reasonably tactical on their own (doing things like flanking), and you'd probably be justified in taking that away from a 1 Int wolf. And they'd also lose three tricks, though there aren't any rules for which three: You could say that it's the three most-recently taught, which are presumably the ones the druid considered lowest-priority, or you could pick them at random. If the wolf forgot the "Attack" trick, then that would seriously cripple its effectiveness, but if it lost "Track" in the middle of combat, that probably wouldn't matter.

[Troacctid]

The same as the difference between 11 INT and 10 INT.

No, going down from an odd score to an even score results in the same modifier, whereas going down from an even score to an odd score results in a lower modifier.

[TheCorsairMalac]

Hmm! What a situation!

Running purely on instinct sounds like the vermin type:

...Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats....

Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

This isn't quite what is happening with the stupid wolf. It's got 1 INT, which is just enough to maintain its feats and skill points(well, some of them.)

The handle animal skill is probably our best reference, just like everyone else is saying.
An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks.

Possible tricks in core game: Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Perform, Seek, Stay, Track, Work

So, if it started knowing how to do six of those things, then suddenly lost 3 randomly... It could have truly debilitating effects, like forgetting how to do the base necessities(attack, seek, fetch) or when to do them(guard, defend, come).

Could a wolf that knows how to 'attack' still attack if it doesn't know how to 'defend' its pack, 'guard' its den, or 'seek' its food? Would it still travel in a pack if it didn't understand when to 'come'?

Truly, your wizard friend made one very very broken animal.

[Troacctid]

Of course if this wolf was summoned via Summon Nature's Ally, it may not have known any tricks in the first place. It would just continue to attack the Druid's opponents to the best of its ability, except with an extra -1 to Search checks.

[TheCorsairMalac]

Of course if this wolf was summoned via Summon Nature's Ally, it may not have known any tricks in the first place. It would just continue to attack the Druid's opponents to the best of its ability, except with an extra -1 to Search checks.

Perhaps so.

But as a DM I know that players don't have fun when their ability succeeds, but still does nothing. For the sake of fun I would make something either useful or entertaining happen.

[Chronos]

And the solution to that is for the players to not use their abilities in situations where they would be useless. If you cast Touch of Idiocy on an animal, what do you expect to happen?

[Scorponok]

Reading Summon Nature's Ally on d20srd, it's not totally clear who controls the animal. In every game I've played so far, the one who summoned it gets to control it. This has allowed the player to go straight for the spellcasters when there are otherwise other beefy targets standing in the way. Does the DM have say in how the animal moves and its behavior?

[Troacctid]

The summoned creature follows your directions, but only if you can communicate with it. Otherwise, it attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.

[Jack_Simth]

Reading Summon Nature's Ally on d20srd, it's not totally clear who controls the animal. In every game I've played so far, the one who summoned it gets to control it. This has allowed the player to go straight for the spellcasters when there are otherwise other beefy targets standing in the way. Does the DM have say in how the animal moves and its behavior?

Well, first off, the Spell Text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm):
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.

The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Nature’s Ally table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. All the creatures on the table are neutral unless otherwise noted.

Let's take this apart for the stuff that affects behavior.
"It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn."
- 1 round casting time, so you start casting, and finish at the start of your next turn, at which point, it appears and acts immediately. That's fine. You also get to pick where it shows up (within range).
"It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
- So by default, it picks an opponent, and simply attacks as best it thinks it can.
"If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." (Emphasis added)
- Here's where we get into the meat of things. Under normal circumstances, you can't really communicate with a wolf. When you can't, you can't tell it not to attack, so it'll attack whatever it thinks is an enemy. Presumably, usually the closest that's a valid target for it (no Unnatural Aura, for instance). If you have something like, say, Speak With Animals up, on the other hand, you can "direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." If you don't, you can't, so it's picking the target.

Now, for ease-of-play, many DMs just have the summoner control the summoned monster and be done with it, regardless of whether or not the summoner is capable of communicating with the summon. Ease-of-play is not a bad thing, but it's not quite the rules, and it does make the spell marginally stronger.

[TheCorsairMalac]

And the solution to that is for the players to not use their abilities in situations where they would be useless. If you cast Touch of Idiocy on an animal, what do you expect to happen?

I would expect it to become less intelligent.

[Ashtagon]

I would expect it to become less intelligent.

I would expect the spell to do what it says it will do in the spell description.

Touch of idiocy is most useful against spellcasters, in order to quickly cut down their ability to cast. It has secondary effects against creatures that are using lots of skills, due to loss of skill points and skill modifiers. It can also be useful against creatures with mental ability-dependent special abilities (as it will reduce their save DCs).

I'd (generously, and non-RAW) allow it to strip away all tricks that a trained animal has learned; this may prevent a Handle Animal character from directing it so effectively. However, an animal still has enough intelligence left to act like an undamaged Int 1 animal --- which is perfectly good for fighting back at someone who is actively trying to kill it or its friends, whether the animal is being directed or not.

To expect it to do more than that is unreasonable.

[ericgrau]

By RAW there is nothing specific so it's up to the DM. I think there is not much effect but just have them stop using tactics and tripping and attack over and over again. They should still flee when hurt too much. I say this because most int 1 animals can still attack perfectly fine, but they often don't have all the special tactics that int 2 animals have.

[Flickerdart]

My interpretation of Int 1 vs Int 2 is that Int 2 represents the "clever" animals like elephants, chimps, or crows, as well as social animals that need to jostle for position within the pack/herd. Creatures that are not social (such as snakes or rats) are simpler because all they need to do is run around killing and eating things.

So I'd say that an Int 2 animal bumped down to Int 1 should stop collaborating with its allies intuitively. Fortunately for the wolf, its summoner can still command it, but it will no longer do things like flank or trip unless ordered.

[atemu1234]

My interpretation of Int 1 vs Int 2 is that Int 2 represents the "clever" animals like elephants, chimps, or crows, as well as social animals that need to jostle for position within the pack/herd. Creatures that are not social (such as snakes or rats) are simpler because all they need to do is run around killing and eating things.

So I'd say that an Int 2 animal bumped down to Int 1 should stop collaborating with its allies intuitively. Fortunately for the wolf, its summoner can still command it, but it will no longer do things like flank or trip unless ordered.

This is a good answer. I like this answer.