Gnome Racial trait cheese?

[skypse]

So I was looking at the Fey Magic Racial trait from Gnomes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/gnome) and something weird came into mind. It is not something that can make overpowered, but it can surely be proven very useful if it can be applied. (I know this trait exists for other races as well, but this could work only with gnomes by strict RAW)

So, this racial trait says that you can choose 3 0-level spells and one 1-level spell from the druid spell list and cast them as spell-like abilities once per day each. Now, looking at the druid spell list, there is a 1-level spell called Recharge Innate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/recharge-innate-magic) which allows you to recharge all the 0-level and 1-level spell-like abilities that you have due to a racial trait.

I'm sure by now you know where this is going, but let's complete it for the sake of completion.

Gnomes have Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation and Speak with Animals as spell like abilities thanks to their racial trait. Picking Fey Magic, they also get access to 3 more 0-level druid spells of their choice. All these can be used 1/day but what happens if the 1-level spell you pick from the Druid spell list is Recharge Innate Magic? At first thought you just get all these spells 2/day but since this spell refreshes the use of the spell-like abilities granted by racial trait, and you have this as a spell-like ability granted by a racial trait, doesn't this mean that it refreshes itself thus resulting in having 7 spell-like abilities at will? I know they are not major spells but they can be proven really useful especially for early game. Detect Magic on a rogue for free, prestidigitation (one of the strongest low level spells as perceived by many) at will on any class and who knows what else!

[Kurald Galain]

Why on earth is it cheesy to get a bunch of cantrips at will? Pretty much every caster class gets a bunch of cantrips at will, too.

[Vhaidara]

First, as Kurald pointed out, so what?

Also, Fey Magic is not Gnome specific. It's available to all of the core races. And only works in one specific terrain


prestidigitation (one of the strongest low level spells as perceived by many)

You seem to be confusing "best" with "strongest". Presti, pretty much by definition, cannot do anything mechanically useful. However, it is just about the best spell I have ever found for adding the little touch of magical flavor to any character.

[avr]

It's certainly handy. Alternately a gnome rogue could get both fey magic and fell magic (they replace different features) and be able to cast chill touch every combat, which could make his life easier.

But with all that it's 'nice to have' rather than amazing. And as you say in the title it might look cheesy to have a SLA recharge itself, which could make the GM push back at you the next time you ask for something.

[skypse]

Why on earth is it cheesy to get a bunch of cantrips at will? Pretty much every caster class gets a bunch of cantrips at will, too.

It's not pun-pun cheese, but it is nice to have 3 AW cantrips on a martial only class. Also, at this point I should say that I completely ignore 3pp stuff from my game life so in case something like that exists in PoW or Psionics or anything other 3pp for PF I have no idea about it. :D

[Vhaidara]

Why are you bringing third party into this? The only other things brought up were first party casters and the fact that every core race got the fey magic trait. In the same book as gnomes, I should add.

[Kurald Galain]

You know what's cheesy? A longsword deals twice as much damage as a dagger! Omg t3h cheese, ban longswords!

[Zrak]

You know what's cheesy? A longsword deals twice as much damage as a dagger! Omg t3h cheese, ban longswords!

Dude, get a grip. This isn't even close to reasonable. Longswords do slightly less than twice as much damage as a dagger, on average. Longswords are no AD&D morningstars. Not by any .5-damage-length stretch of the imagination, sonny. Now those were broken. Twice the damage of a dagger, on average. Twice! :smallwink:

[Vhaidara]

Hey guys, keep it on the down low, but I heard there's this thing called a greatsword. It does like, three times as much damage as a dagger AND you get to add an extra .5 times your Str mod to your damage!


It's not pun-pun cheese, but it is nice to have 3 AW cantrips on a martial only class.

Also, it just occurred to me how much this statement bugs me. I'm not claiming this is how you meant it, but the way this comes across is "it's a nice thing for martials, so it's cheese". It didn't break anything when the wizard, or the sorcerer, or the cleric, or the inquisitor, or any other caster was able to spam detect magic. My pathfinder society unchained rogue who took minor magic has yet to break anything by spamming detect magic, or prestige, or acid splash (Bookish rogue feat, can change my cantrip with a few minutes of study). It certainly won't break anything when the fighter can Spam detect magic, especially since he doesn't have the skill points for knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft to actually use it beyond " hey, that's magic!"

[skypse]

I didn't mean it that way I assure you. Maybe the term "cheese" is a little less important than it should. The cheese part goes to the fact that using this trait you usually lose something not really important, for 3 AW spell-like abilities which I agree is not a big thing or on par with other optimization techniques, but I believe that cantrips/orisons can prove to be really useful in certain circumstances. Resistance, Guidance, Purify food and Drink, etc can all help a low level character without any access to magic (e.g. vanilla fighter) with little bonuses here and there or with the ability to eat and drink anything he wants while in the wilderness without any fear.

[Vhaidara]

I don't think anyone denied that it's a useful trick, and it's actually one I think I'll use for one of my next PFS characters. But it isn't really cheese, or overpowered, or gamebreaking in any way.

[Psychoalpha]

I don't think anyone denied that it's a useful trick, and it's actually one I think I'll use for one of my next PFS characters. But it isn't really cheese, or overpowered, or gamebreaking in any way.

Er.. what does overpowered or gamebreaking have to do with cheese? While the terms are frequently connected, they aren't absolutely linked. Something can be cheesy while still being just fine.

Whether it is or not really depends on the intent behind the Recharge Innate Magic spell.

If it was written with the intent that it be used exactly as presented here, essentially giving up your 1st level SLA to make your cantrips at-will (within your chosen terrain type) if you took Fey Magic, then it's not cheese.

If that wasn't the intent, and (whatever value judgements we make about limited cantrips being ridiculous in the first place) it's taking advantage of an unforeseen rules interaction to get something (unlimited cantrips) you would normally be restricted from having, then it's cheese.

Cheese isn't inherently bad, it's just cheese. Regardless, in neither case is this fairly limited scope gimmick going to be overpowered.

It's possible some people just have a knee jerk reflex, or deal with GMs who have that reflex, to reject anything that seems cheesy. That's unfortunate, but that's a problem with perception, not with cheese itself.