Rebalancing classes through Skill Points.

[Bobbybobby99]

The Tier situation in 3.5 (and Pathfinder) is pretty darn bad. Sometimes a person's first response is "Well, let's change the classes!" but that typically ends up being too hard, because they go for individual changes. How about the following?

Subtract one from tier. Multiply by two. Add that amount to skill points per level to that class.
Then-
Add a number of class skills, freely chosen by the player, to the classes skill list, equal to that classes tier.

If gestalt; rather than taking the better of two skill points per level, add skill points per level together.

Suddenly, a Fighter can't just fight in a mediocre fashion; they can also throw around 10+intelligence modifier skills per level, including four class skills unique to the fighter, which could turn him into a social master, a wilderness guy, a court jester; all while still being a fighter.

What do you think the unintended ramifications of this sort of change would be?

[Novawurmson]

Rogue is tier 4.

Rogue now has 14+Int skills per level.

Seems legit.

I don't think throwing bonus skills at lower tier classes is a bad thing, but you still get the BMX Bandit vs. Angel Summoner issue: Yes, now the BMX Bandit can be really good at Ride checks and a couple other skills, but the tier ones are still having tea with their army of angels in their private demiplane.

Restricting classes usually has better results, in my experience.

[Florian]

By my experince, it's actually the frequency of skill checks that define the value of skills and their respective opportunity cost.
I do consider it bad design to ask for skill checks to "clear or circumvent a roadblock", as this is a) binary and b) leads to the known situation of making spells worth more than skills.
So, instead of shoring up the number of skill points, I tend to increase the situations skills can be used and instead of binary solutions, I tend grant significant boni for successful uses of a skill.

[OldTrees1]

Depending on how you DM skills, this can raise many classes to Tier 3(provided the class was already competent in combat). But it will not lower Tier 1-2 classes back to Tier 3.

[Vhaidara]

Well, it has some accidental side effects. Like Commoner having almost as many skill points as Rogue.

In fact, if the way people whine about the Rogue dropping tiers going into PF were true (I don't think it is), since the crux of the argument is that it basically lost niche protection, I'd say this would threaten to lower the Rogue's tier. since now EVERYONE can do his job.

[Novawurmson]

That's a good point, Keledrath.

Thinking about it a little more, skill consolidation (like Pathfinder's) kind of is this. When you smash Spot+Search+Listen together into Perception, you're essentially giving the Fighter 2 more skills per level. It just doesn't affect tiers that much.

In Pathfinder, though, there are simply so many decent to amazing tier 3-4 classes that class lists are the easiest way to go.

Tier 3-4 Paizo Classes

Barbarian, Bard, Lore Warden Fighter, Monk (with archetypes)/Unchained Monk, Unchained Rogue, Ninja, Anti/Paladin, Ranger, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Bloodrager, Brawler (arguably), Hunter, Investigator, Skald, Slayer (arguably), Warpriest, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Spiritualist, Kineticist.

Tier 3-4 Frequently Allowed 3rd Party Classes

Path of War (Warder, Warlord, Stalker, Mystic, Harbinger, Zealot), Ultimate Psionics (Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Aegis, Dread, Cryptic, Marksman), Akashic Mysteries (Guru, Vizier, Daevic)

Spheres of Power (All of them are pretty good)

...plus plenty of other good 3rd party options, like hopefully the updated Radiance House binding material.

If you throw in tier 2, that's the sorcerer, oracle, psion, wilder, tactician, and vitalist at minimum.

With that level of options, it's hard for me to start looking for other ways to balance tiers.

[TheCorsairMalac]

I'd like to say that whatever effect skills have on a class's tier rating, they definitely significantly increase their FUN VALUE.

People don't play straight fighters because they're boring. "Round 13: I full attack, hitting it with my axe twice... again. *sigh*"

If a fighter now has the option to be charismatic, or observant, or maybe even stealthy if he feels like it, then it makes the character much more fun, even if it doesn't make him much more powerful.

[Sacrieur]

Opposed checks would be much weaker.

Meanwhile spells which are based largely on saves will be that much more desirable.

[AvatarVecna]

Getting an extra pile of skill points doesn't change your in-combat incompetence outside of niche situations; in a standard combat, skills don't directly come up much at all. Monks with an extra 10 skill points is still a Monk: they still have medium BAB, flurry still makes mobile fighting styles inefficient, their effective range is still crappy (minimum 5 ft with melee, maximum 50 ft with shuriken before spending resources improving it), and it's still got a slew of class features that are objectively terrible in a mid-op game.

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure about the formula suggested above, but I do firmly believe that all mundane classes hsould get a bare minimum of 4 skill points a level...

[Curmudgeon]

Getting an extra pile of skill points doesn't change your in-combat incompetence outside of niche situations; in a standard combat, skills don't directly come up much at all.
You could add the 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types to martial characters' class lists, and give every non-spellcasting character Knowledge Devotion; that would make skill points directly applicable to combat.

[Malroth]

Intimidate for a bit of crowd control, Iaijutsu focus to really hurt something round 1 . It's not incredible but it does help a bit for everybody but the rogue and expert anyway.

[AvatarVecna]

You could add the 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types to martial characters' class lists, and give every non-spellcasting character Knowledge Devotion; that would make skill points directly applicable to combat.

As awesome as free Knowledge Devotion is, especially when you get the knowledge skills as class skills and a bunch of extra skill points, it's still not going to fix the problems inherent to the tier system.

[Curmudgeon]

As awesome as free Knowledge Devotion is, especially when you get the knowledge skills as class skills and a bunch of extra skill points, it's still not going to fix the problems inherent to the tier system.
It's not going to fix all the problems, no. However, it's certainly an improvement. Note that the Knowledge check necessary to determine your Knowledge Devotion bonuses also gives you the usual information about creature strengths and vulnerabilities, so you can fight more effectively. (Or know when not to fight, with no Divination magic necessary.)

[AvatarVecna]

It's not going to fix all the problems, no. However, it's certainly an improvement.

Oh absolutely. Before, the Monk and the Rogue had trouble hitting, and now they don't; before, archers had some serious hurdles to jump in order to deal out competitive damage, and now they don't. The knowledge skills functioning as the poor man's divination spells is also useful, but it's hardly going to bump anybody up more than a single tier (from 5/4 to 4/3, depending on whether they're becoming competent or incredibly competent with this change). However, it's not bringing any T3 to T2, and it's not bringing any T2/T1 down to T3/T2, so there's still issues; if we could get everybody in the low T2/high T4 range, it'd be more workable, and this is a start.

Like I said, it's definitely an awesome upgrade, but it's hardly a perfect fix, or a complete one, or even a significant one; it's one piece of a larger puzzle.