Best Class to do Next Core Only DMG PHB MM

[LordOfCain]

Wood Elf Fighter 2 (LN)
Str: 18
Con: 10
Dex: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 9
Cha: 12
Feats: TWF, Power Attack, and Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick)
Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Adamantium Breastplate and Robe of Useful Items
8 Daggers, Longbow, and Heavy Pick

CORE ONLY!!!! What class should I multiclass as. No Paladin, Sorcerer, Monk, or Druid

[LordOfCain]

Already have a wizard, a cleric, a rogue, another fighter, a ranger, and a barbarian.

[Troacctid]

Heavy pick? What? Can you retrain that feat?

Anyway, I'd suggest taking two levels of Barbarian, then a level of Bard, then going into Dragon Disciple.

[LordOfCain]

LAWFUL NEUTRAL. Both of those have to be none lawful. If I can shift alignments maybe.

[mabriss lethe]

The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) Might give you some ideas on where to go. (it's widely considered to be the best core only melee build)

[Troacctid]

Shifting alignments is merely a matter of stating that you intend to do so.

Choosing an alignment for your character means stating your intent to play that character a certain way.
So just say you're no longer lawful.

[LordOfCain]

The DM is rather strict and probably would not let me do so. If he did I would definitely consider your combo. If I were to shift alignments it would be through consistent rping.

[Troacctid]

Well, if you can't be a Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer, then you don't really have much choice. It's either Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, or Wizard.

Fighter is bad because all the odd levels are dead.
Wizard is bad because your Int is only 12.
Rogue into Assassin would be okay, but you can't go straight Rogue because of multiclass penalties. (Shadowdancer would have been okay if you'd chosen different feats, but that ship has probably sailed now.)
Ranger into Horizon Walker or Assassin would also be okay.

[eggynack]

So, what you're basically saying here is that you can go cleric, ranger, rogue, wizard, or more fighter. It's a pretty limited set, especially because wizard makes a crappy dip in core, cleric makes a mostly crappy dip in core, and rogue just doesn't do much. So, I guess ranger? Maybe angle towards horizon walker. It's a halfway decent prestige class.

[nedz]

So Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 10

Trouble is you can't make a tripper — you need Int 13 — but that's OK just go for another fighting style.
Also you'll have TWF twice — which is why you have to plan 3.5 character several levels ahead.
Also Ranger at 1st would have given you more skill points.

I'd be tempted to switch to Cleric, bump your Wisdom at level 4 and 8, and then acquire a Periapt of Wisdom. Favoured Class is going to bite you though and there are no good PrCs in core to run too. Even with the xp penalty this is still going to be your strongest option.

Eldritch Knight is a good option for a core only gish; but you would have to go in via Sorcerer 6; which doesn't work for a couple of reasons: You've ruled out this option and Favoured Class = Ranger.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A level or three of Rogue is nice for skills and sneak attack?

[nedz]

A level or three of Rogue is nice for skills and sneak attack?

True, but where do you go after that ?
Assassin ?
Sure, but that's going to require an alignment shift southwards — which is generally more problematic than heading east on the table.

[Troacctid]

True, but where do you go after that ?
Assassin ?
Sure, but that's going to require an alignment shift southwards — which is generally more problematic than heading east on the table.

To be fair, killing someone just to join the assassins is a pretty easy way to send your alignment south.

[nedz]

To be fair, killing someone just to join the assassins is a pretty easy way to send your alignment south.

Sure: going south is easy. Going south and staying with the party can be less easy.

IDK the situation in this particular game but it could easily be the case that this advice would cause him to have to retire his character at level 6-ish.

To be fair: retire your character and try again is solid advice in this case; though it's probably better to just re-roll now especially if there is some xp penalty for doing this.

[Nifft]

So Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 10

Trouble is you can't make a tripper — you need Int 13 — but that's OK just go for another fighting style.
Also you'll have TWF twice

Why not just take Archery for the Ranger fighting style?

Then it's just TWF once.

Put the level 4 stat point in Intelligence and you can get Expertise -> Improved Trip.

[nedz]

Why not just take Archery for the Ranger fighting style?

Then it's just TWF once.

Put the level 4 stat point in Intelligence and you can get Expertise -> Improved Trip.

Archery — sure. But archery is quite feat intensive and this just makes the character jack of all trades, master of none. Now you can do it, and Rapid Shot is a good feat, but does it actually help ?

I thought about the Int boost for Improved Trip, but the build is very front loaded with it's feats and so you won't get Improved Trip until level 9 — the game may be over by then.

[Nifft]

Archery — sure. But archery is quite feat intensive and this just makes the character jack of all trades, master of none. Now you can do it, and Rapid Shot is a good feat, but does it actually help ? It helps more than having TWF twice.

Since the build had only 3 levels of Ranger, I'm not sure why you think anyone would want to take TWF twice instead of Rapid Shot.


I thought about the Int boost for Improved Trip, but the build is very front loaded with it's feats and so you won't get Improved Trip until level 9 — the game may be over by then. Bro, you proposed a 15-level build.

Sure, having Improved Trip sooner would be better than later, but it's kinda pointless to fixate on that since he can't do that.

He dug himself a hole, and asked us to help him make it the nicest hole it can be.

[eggynack]

Bro, you proposed a 15-level build.

Well, yeah, but it's a 15-level build that can be trivially truncated by removing horizon walker levels until you hit the correct point for the end game. Writing "Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 10" is basically the same as writing, "Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 and then horizon walker never especially stops being good in core, so take that as far as you can." By contrast, improved trip is somewhat more on the binary side of things, and the associated feat tax makes taking it a complex thing. Granted, horizon walker also has that latter problem, but I think it pays off sooner.

[LordOfCain]

I am thinking rogue or wizard especially. Wizard for eventual EK or rogue for Reflex save (lots of traps) and sneak attack. As well as the possibility of a southward alignment drop or requirement waive and Assassin. What items should I use?

[Grod_The_Giant]

True, but where do you go after that ?
Assassin ?
Sure, but that's going to require an alignment shift southwards — which is generally more problematic than heading east on the table.
You don't have to go anywhere, really. "Dip like a lunatic" is one of the best (only?) ways to get a functioning noncaster in core.

[LordOfCain]

What items would compliment the current build with a rogue level the best? As well as what feat?

[Nifft]

I am thinking rogue or wizard especially. Wizard for eventual EK or rogue for Reflex save (lots of traps) and sneak attack. As well as the possibility of a southward alignment drop or requirement waive and Assassin. What items should I use?

If you want to get into EK, then stop taking Fighter levels immediately and go Wizard 5 or 6 next.

You shouldn't have taken Fighter 2. If you can retrain that into a Wizard level, do it.

(IMHO the best core-only EK build is Ranger 1 / Wizard 5 or 6 / EK, because Ranger 1 gets you a heap more skill points at level 1, and you have access to some useful wands immediately.)

- - -

Rogue is a totally different direction, and -- if your DM is using multiclass XP penalties -- a difficult one for your race. You'd need to take Rogue 1 immediately to avoid a multiclass XP penalty, and then keep your Fighter and Rogue levels within 2 of each other.

With your low Dex / Wis / Int, you're not built to be a Rogue. What benefit do you foresee? Do you want to be the traps-guy?

[LordOfCain]

I think sneak attack would be good and my dex is not that low.

[nedz]

Is your DM using the Favoured Class rules? So far our advice has assumed that this is the case, but if it isn't then many more options are open.

OK,
Your dex is fine for Rogue.
So you take 3 levels of Rogue leaving you at Fighter 2 / Rogue 3; where do you go next ?

[LordOfCain]

Maybe Shadowdancer or Assassin. He is supposed to be a master of knives.

[LordOfCain]

Also, classes i said were not allowed are allowed after level 5. XP penalties are enforced as well.

[Troacctid]

Probably switch your heavy pick and dagger to a greatsword (or glaive if you take Combat Reflexes) and armor spikes so you can take better advantage of your Strength and Power Attack. Go into Assassin so you can keep advancing sneak attack without taking multiclass penalties. Feats worth taking in core...I guess Leadership, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Bluff), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, maybe Great Fortitude... there aren't a lot of good ones.

[ericgrau]

Since you want EK yeah go straight into wizard then EK 10 from there. Don't delay with other classes. Or assassin is good if you want to be good with knives. Actually you would use daggers. Then either fighter 4 + rogue for WS (dagger) or pure rogue until you can take assassin. Then assassin 10 from there. TWF thrown+melee daggers is good until about level 13, especially with your strength and sneak attack. At about level 13 you need to stop throwing and get good magic daggers but you may continue TWF melee.

Your feats don't work together at all. You might want to ask the DM if you may replace any two of them. Individually all 3 are good in core-only, so don't worry about that. WF, heavy pick and TWF are bad only for splatbook builds, and PA is actually semi-weak in core only. In core-only the good options for melee are actually the WF tree, TWF (1-3 feats only) and improved trip. You wouldn't necessarily get all 3 trees, maybe 1 or 2. EWP (spiked chain) is nice. Some of the other EWP weapons are ok too in core only if they match your build. Most of the other feats are actually not that special and are nicer outside of core, if you don't just avoid core feats altogether at that point. Maybe get some of those later if they match your build.

Because of your low int once you get EK you want battlefield control spells that have no save or have a good effect even on a passed save. And hour/level buffs and mass buffs. Web, sleet storm, haste, wall of force, mage armor, greater magic weapon, etc. Round one divide and weaken the enemies with a battlefield control spell. Round 2+ hit the un-trapped ones with your weapon. Later you'll have to boost your int to meet minimum casting requirements.

[LordOfCain]

Assassin into EK.... (finish my sentence) Also, could you use Loremaster to advance the Mystic Theurge casting progression?

[Rubik]

I would suggest saving up for a couple of scrolls of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm). When you can get them (and you must wait until you can get two), have the party wizard cast both of them on you in quick succession to turn you into a monster, such as a minotaur, ogre, or other heavy hitting bruiser. Casting it twice in a row forces the duration of the second casting to be Permanent, which is why you bought the second one. Remember that the spell cannot turn you into anything with HD higher than yours or anything that's more than one size category away from yours, and the abilities you get are limited, but you still get quite a lot out of it.

Depending on which monster form you choose, that will help determine what direction you'll want to take after that. Using PAO to boost your Int to 13+ opens up entirely new avenues of feats and classes you can take, and new monster abilities (such as swallow whole, large amounts of reach, and Large size) can open up new feats for you, as well.

I can't give much more advice until you choose which new monster body you want and actually procure the scrolls.

[Troacctid]

Assassin into EK.... (finish my sentence) Also, could you use Loremaster to advance the Mystic Theurge casting progression?

1. ...is not a thing. You want to get Assassin 8 proper to hide in plain sight, then level 9 is worth it for the sneak attack and level 10 already gives BAB, so there isn't a good break point to switch to EK.
2. No.

[LordOfCain]

Could you use Loremaster to advance Mystic Theurge????? EDIT: Why not? It is a spell casting class.

[ericgrau]

Could you use Loremaster to advance Mystic Theurge????? EDIT: Why not? It is a spell casting class.
I don't think it actually counts a spellcasting class. Loremaster would advance either cleric or wizard instead of mystic theurge.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Could you use Loremaster to advance Mystic Theurge????? EDIT: Why not? It is a spell casting class.

Mystic The urge is not a casting class. It has a feature that advances casting classes. Loremaster has the same feature. The features do not say they advance similar features.

[Rubik]

I don't think it actually counts a spellcasting class. Loremaster would advance either cleric or wizard instead of mystic theurge.It doesn't have its own spell progression, instead advancing another's. Classes such as ur priest and sublime chord do have their own, and other PrCs can advance them.

[LordOfCain]

Where does it define spell casting class as a class that has its own progression and not one that progresses spell progression? EDIT: Also, why no assassin into EK? To justify alignment shift I might do the following. My current char is on a quest to save his love interest and I could make it that he does not care how many bodies he has to wade through to get to her, he would literally do anything.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Where does it define spell casting class as a class that has its own progression and not one that progresses spell progression? EDIT: Also, why no assassin into EK?

Assassin's casting stops at 10. Eldrith Knight will stop progressing its casting once you hit assassin casting 10. At that point you might be better off going straight black guard.

[Troacctid]

EDIT: Also, why no assassin into EK?

Because you want to take at least 8 Assassin levels for hide in plain sight. Then level 9 is worth taking for sneak attack, and level 10 gives you BAB already. After that you can't advance any more with Eldritch Knight.

[LordOfCain]

My current WIP build does not use hide and has no real use for hide as he is supposed to be a fighter brutish character with sneak attack.

[nedz]

Where does it define spell casting class as a class that has its own progression and not one that progresses spell progression?

It's partly interpretation because the alternative interpretation would allow us to build some truly broken characters.
Outside of core there are several Theurge classes which you could stack.

Also it's in the class descriptions themselves:

Basically Mystic Theurge says, under it's Spells per Day column "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class".
Wizard, for example, actually lists spells per day by level.

[LordOfCain]

So RAW, you can make characters like this one.
High Elf Wizard 3/Cleric of Boccob 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Loremaster 10
Str: 11
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 20
Cha: 10
EDIT: Would allowing a ranger to qualify for Arcane Archer without arcane casting be broken? Assuming 5 levels of Assassin, would going into EK be bad?

[Troacctid]

EDIT: Would allowing a ranger to qualify for Arcane Archer without arcane casting be broken?
Arcane Archer sucks, so probably not. But it doesn't matter, because you don't have the feats for Arcane Archer.


Assuming 5 levels of Assassin, would going into EK be bad?
Pretty bad yeah. You lose 2d6 sneak attack, 10 skill points (plus a bunch of class skills), and hide in plain sight, and you only gain +1 BAB (and that's not until level 14). Not an especially favorable trade. And that assumes you're getting spells known, which are actually omitted from Eldritch Knight as written.

[nedz]

So RAW, you can make characters like this one.
High Elf Wizard 3/Cleric of Boccob 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Loremaster 10
Str: 11
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 20
Cha: 10
EDIT: Would allowing a ranger to qualify for Arcane Archer without arcane casting be broken? Assuming 5 levels of Assassin, would going into EK be bad?

RAW is ambiguous and you'd probably start with something like
Illuminium Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Ultimate Magus 1
You would then need to finagle more theurges on top.
I don't know what the optimal build for this cheese fondue is because AFAIK no one has ever worked it out.

Arcane Archer isn't very good because it doesn't advance spellcasting.

[LordOfCain]

So would it be broken to let a ranger's divine casting qualify for arcane archer? And would Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Eldritch Knight 10 be any good?

[Troacctid]

So would it be broken to let a ranger's divine casting qualify for arcane archer? And would Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Eldritch Knight 10 be any good?

No and no.

[LordOfCain]

Reasons for your second no please. I know future abilities for Assassin are good but still. Why would it not be any good? EDIT: Should my rogue 2 friend go wizard into arcane trickster or keep going rogue into shadow dancer?

[Troacctid]

See above. Eldritch Knight doesn't advance Assassin abilities, skills, or sneak attack, and only offers one point of BAB in return. The last 4 levels are also completely dead.

Your rogue friend could do either of those things, or stick with straight Rogue, or just dip Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight and go back to Rogue afterwards. I would recommend against Arcane Trickster when the party already has a Wizard, however.

[LordOfCain]

I suppose that is rather bad then. Well what about dragon disciple???

[Troacctid]

You could go Dragon Disciple after Assassin, sure. That's a long way off, though, since you need to be at least Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 8 in order to meet the cross-class skill requirement.

[LordOfCain]

Dragon type; way to get DD earlier etc."

[LordOfCain]

Any new ideas? Definitely going to go rogue next meeting. Maybe shadow dancer? Or should I stick with assassin?

[Troacctid]

You don't have the feats for Shadowdancer, nor do you have an easy way of getting them. Also, the main draw of the class is hide in plain sight, which you said you don't want. I don't think it's what you're looking for.

[LordOfCain]

Any good PrCs that are not assassin and I can get into soonish then?

[Troacctid]

Yes, Dragon Disciple or Horizon Walker, as mentioned.

[LordOfCain]

How to get into both. No spontaneous casting currently. :(. I want to have DD but no casting and sorc is banned. bard is the only other one that is allowed and no lawfuls can take it. I have not looked into horizon walker. What are prereqs?

[Troacctid]

Horizon Walker requires Knowledge (Geography) and Endurance, which means the standard entry uses Ranger. The class is mainly good because of shifting planar terrain mastery to get unlimited teleportation; it also has a good chassis and provides a bunch of other marginal benefits.

Dragon Disciple will push you out of your Lawful alignment.

[LordOfCain]

What classes have knowledge geography as a class skil??? Endurance I could just take next level and not even blink.

[LordOfCain]

Liking 2 Levels of Ranger but not 3. What one level dip would be any good?

[GreyBlack]

Wood Elf Fighter 2 (LN)
Str: 18
Con: 10
Dex: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 9
Cha: 12
Feats: TWF, Power Attack, and Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick)
Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Adamantium Breastplate and Robe of Useful Items
8 Daggers, Longbow, and Heavy Pick

CORE ONLY!!!! What class should I multiclass as. No Paladin, Sorcerer, Monk, or Druid

Insufficient data. Are you using core multiclassing rules? If you are, then ranger without a doubt. If you're not, then bard is an excellent choice.

However, my big question is what role do you want to play? WHO is your character? What are his goals/aspirations? What do you envision him/her doing at the end of the game?

Personally,given your charisma being one of your higher stats, I would try and play a commander-type of fighter. Maybe try and become an Elven general type who would inspire his troops to fight and die. Seeing as you illegally selected Two Weapon Fighting feat (TWF needs a dex of 15, you have 14), I would ask your DM to trade that out for Improved Initiative, grab a level in Bard, focus on your charisma for the rest of the game, and focus on playing the commander/marshal type dude who is tactically skilled, though a little absent on the details.

[LordOfCain]

Sorry. Don't have my character sheet on me. I assure you my selection of TWF is 100% legal. I actually have 15 Dex. My character is somewhat of a mysterious person. Uses knives and a pick to fight, has a creepy stalker relationship with the daughter of the richest person in his town, and is a fairly decent fighter. Wants to eventually become the best knife thrower in the kingdom but uses the pick for his melee weapon.

[eggynack]

Liking 2 Levels of Ranger but not 3. What one level dip would be any good?
You should just take the third level for endurance. Yes, you can eat the feat tax normally, but why would you want to? Getting that feat in-class frees up that feat slot for whatever you want, which essentially means that you can read that class feature as, "You get a bonus feat of your choice that you meet the prerequisites of, without restrictions." It's not necessarily a better class feature than you could get in a broader environment, but I gotta figure that it's way better than anything you could plausibly gain in this ludicrously restricted situation.

[LordOfCain]

Okay. What is so good about horizon walker? just wondering. I see some good things but what works with my build.

[nerghull]

Various bonuses for 5 level then blindsense, dimension doors at will and fatigue immunity (and energy resistance eventually)

[Troacctid]

Levels 1-5 give you some so-so marginal benefits on a good chassis. Level 6 gets you shifting planar terrain mastery, which is one of the best mobility effects in core, allowing you to use Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds--extremely useful and the main incentive to take the class. After that you get tremorsense and energy resistance and some more marginal benefits. Overall, it's nothing incredible, but it is still significantly better than most anything else you can do as a non-caster in a core-only game, since its competition consists primarily of dead levels and extra rages per day.

[LordOfCain]

Okay. Plus ranger 2 gets me QuickDraw for my daggers. What feat should I get for next level?

[Troacctid]

There aren't a lot of good feats to choose from in core. You're most likely only getting a marginal +X to rolls here and there. You could take Blind-Fight or Weapon Focus (weapon other than heavy pick) to improve your attacks, Iron Will to improve your defenses, Skill Focus to improve a key skill, Combat Reflexes to get extra attacks (assuming you switch to a reach weapon), or Improved Initiative to improve your initiative...any of those would be defensible.

[LordOfCain]

My will save is currently -1 with lots of spell caster battles coming up so...

[LordOfCain]

Any other ideas feat wise?

[nedz]

Okay. What is so good about horizon walker? just wondering. I see some good things but what works with my build.

It's full BAB with 4+ Skill points per level and situational +1 damage.

Levels 1-5 allow a smorgasbord which include being able to add +4 to lots of skill roles which are normally used in opposed rolls (principally stealth and perception) and also immunity to fatigue with exhaustion being treat as fatigue.

Levels 6-10 allow more options which include

Unlimited dimension door
Immunity to alignment based spells and abilities, e.g. Blasphemy
Tremorsense 30'

It's also possible to pick up Fire or Cold res 20, but these are less impressive so after HW 8 I would normally change class.

These are very good options for a mundane character, especially in core.

[LordOfCain]

So what class should I take after level 13? As thirteen is the minimum number of levels (5) and the levels of HW you said I should take.

[nedz]

Assuming Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / HW 8: I would go back to Ranger because of spells, but HW+2 maybe OK.

[prufock]

So what class should I take after level 13? As thirteen is the minimum number of levels (5) and the levels of HW you said I should take.

Are you using the default cosmology? Because if your DM has custom planes


Other (Planar)
If other planes are in use additional Planar Terrains can be created.

cold be quite useful, depending on what abilities your DM would allow.

Other than that, more ranger (Improved TWF, Evasion, more favored enemies), rogue (Trapfinding, 4d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge), or shadowdancer (Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow, though it has a harsh feat tax) would work.

[LordOfCain]

Could I do cleric with the knowledge and destruction domains and get a periapt of wisdom +2? Also currently wearing a medium armor so the ranger benefits would not apply. :(

[LordOfCain]

Cleric would increase my will saves and fortitude and its hit die is relatively large. Would not be able to cast spells with out a stat increasing item but I could sell the more or less useless robe of useful items for it.

[LordOfCain]

So far Cleric 3 into Horizon Walker looks good. If I swap my robe of useful items for a periapt of wisdom +2 and use level four for a wis bonus I get some minor spells, a higher Will save bonus, and better fortitude saves, at the cost of one BAB and some skill points. EDIT: Sorry for minor spam. I could not delete previous posts to compile it into one post.

[LordOfCain]

Any opinions on using Cleric instead of Ranger?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

My will save is currently -1 with lots of spell caster battles coming up so...

Others may disagree, but I think it's too late to fix this by dipping. It would represent a large cost to become average at best. Can you get a custom item of permanent protection from evil? Or does your game tend to telegraph fights sufficiently that you can depend on having a minute per level spell precast for these fights?

[nedz]

Ranger 3 saves you a feat and has better skills. Cleric has better spells and is a good dip.

What are you trying to get your character to do ?

[LordOfCain]

I want my character to have extraordinary knife skills. Horizon Walker could help some with high BAB but I really like the smite feature of the Destruction cleric domain. Maybe Ranger 2 Cleric 1????, that way I could do Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Horizon Walker 7 or 8/What next???

[LordOfCain]

If I only took one level I would not even need to increase wisdom and I could just use domains. What domains other than Destruction would be best??? Maybe Luck???

[LordOfCain]

The magic domain would be good for scrolls and wands and such.

[mabriss lethe]

The magic domain would be good for scrolls and wands and such.

If I were just dipping cleric, this would be my vote. even a single level of cleric with magic domain allows a character to use all wands from both the cleric and sorc/wiz lists. That's a lot of utility to bring to the table.