Can Dorukan & Lirian be contacted?

[Quartz]

Right now Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound inside a gem in Xykon's keeping. Is there any way they can be contacted? Absent Epic magic, that is. Do the Order even have any idea that Xykon has their souls?

[EmperorSarda]

Right now Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound inside a gem in Xykon's keeping. Is there any way they can be contacted? Absent Epic magic, that is. Do the Order even have any idea that Xykon has their souls?

The only sort of clue that they have that Dorukan might be kicking around is that Celia mentioned that Xykon mastered Durokan's Cloister spell.

[Lord Lemming]

We don't actually know that Dorukan and Lirian are still trapped in that gem. After all, the last we saw of the gem was that Xykon had it in his possession. So he either kept it on his person, or else stored it somewhere in Dorukan's dungeon. In the first case, it was most likely destroyed with Xykon's body when he was thrown into the gate; and in the second case it was probably destroyed when Elan activated the self-destruct rune. Barring some horrendously bad luck where the gem was buried in the rubble without being destroyed, the only way it's still intact is if Redcloak took it with him when he fled with Xykon's phylactery and MitD, which I don't see as being particularly likely.

[factotum]

The only sort of clue that they have that Dorukan might be kicking around is that Celia mentioned that Xykon mastered Durokan's Cloister spell.

I think it's reaching to consider that a clue Dorukan is still around, to be honest. Xykon had six months down in the dungeon to research what he got from Dorukan, it's not unreasonable to suppose he'd figure out how Cloister worked in that time.

The spell description for Soul Bind also says that "the soul cannot be returned, even using Miracle or Wish"--if those spells won't work to return the soul from its bondage, I think it's reasonable to assume the soul can't be contacted either.

[NerdyKris]

I doubt Xykon asked Dorukan how the cloister spell worked. Both Dorukan and Lirian were dead. There was nothing left to torture them with. Although Xykon does state that Lirian can see outside the gem, since he was going to make her watch her body get eaten.

As for contacting them, we know they definitely can't. Otherwise Dorukan would have been able to contact Lirian during the decade(?) between her gate being destroyed and Xykon revealing to Dorukan where her soul was. He had high level clerics aiding him in the search so he could have her raised.

[Reboot]

We don't actually know that Dorukan and Lirian are still trapped in that gem. After all, the last we saw of the gem was that Xykon had it in his possession. So he either kept it on his person, or else stored it somewhere in Dorukan's dungeon. In the first case, it was most likely destroyed with Xykon's body when he was thrown into the gate; and in the second case it was probably destroyed when Elan activated the self-destruct rune. Barring some horrendously bad luck where the gem was buried in the rubble without being destroyed, the only way it's still intact is if Redcloak took it with him when he fled with Xykon's phylactery and MitD, which I don't see as being particularly likely.

But see, you're looking at this with Real World Logic. But if you look at it with Story Logic, I think you'll find it could not possibly have been dispensed with off-panel - before it was narratively created, yet! - so simply.

[Father Miles]

If the gem was destroyed in either case, their souls would have been freed. However it is not clear what kind of magic below 9th level would allow any contact or revival with both bodies gone.
If the gem was buried, they are both trapped permanently unless it is somehow dug out or the world is destroyed.
My guess is that there not going to factor into the story and therefore this will be unresolved. However if they are going to be reintroduced, the gem was probably stashed in Xykon's Astral Fortress offscene before the first time he was destroyed.
The scene where he says he built the Astral Fortress does not necessarily mean he just completed it; it could have been done some time ago and that is the first time he told Redcloak.

[Vinyadan]

You may want to add a SoD spoiler tag to the thread title.

No idea of whether they can be contacted, but we got to know that way about clerics capable of casting true resurrection, and Dorukan himself attempted to contact Lirian, and he had devised an epic spell about divination (I don't know whether it was really divination school). I think contacting with them is beyond any living being who is no god or not looking at the gem.

[zimmerwald1915]

My guess is that there not going to factor into the story and therefore this will be unresolved.
As far as we know, only Xykon and Redcloak (and maybe the MitD) know the soul gem even exists. The soul gem has not appeared outside Start of Darkness. Roy can maybe figure out that Xykon has some souls bound based on his knowledge of Xykon's spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), but he's had other things on his mind since receiving that intelligence, and will for the foreseeable future.

What's more, the Giant is on record as saying he doesn't want the Scribblers solving problems for the Order of the Stick, because it would make the story about them.

So yeah, Dorukan and Lirian aren't getting rescued.

Or if they are, they'll have grown to hate each other during their long confinement, just to make things difficult.

[Porthos]

The soul gem has not appeared outside Start of Darkness.

Not entirely true. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) :smallsmile:

[Reboot]

As far as we know, only Xykon and Redcloak (and maybe the MitD) know the soul gem even exists. The soul gem has not appeared outside Start of Darkness. Roy can maybe figure out that Xykon has some souls bound based on his knowledge of Xykon's spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), but he's had other things on his mind since receiving that intelligence, and will for the foreseeable future.

...but how exactly DID O-Chul find out Soul Bind was on Xykon's spell list? It isn't the sort of spell that gets used regularly - and it isn't as if Xykon used it on him ("one saving throw at a time"), surely. Did he see the gem and get told someone was bound in it?

[zimmerwald1915]

Not entirely true. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) :smallsmile:
Eh, that's a one-panel blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo for readers of Start of Darkness. The gem's significance is never explained.

[Father Miles]

...but how exactly DID O-Chul find out Soul Bind was on Xykon's spell list? It isn't the sort of spell that gets used regularly - and it isn't as if Xykon used it on him ("one saving throw at a time"), surely. Did he see the gem and get told someone was bound in it?

Perhaps he was threatened with it during torture sessions and assumed that was not an idle threat.

[Wildroses]

So everyone seems to be totally convinced the only way they'll get out of that soul gem is if Xykon is involved as he is the only one who is fully aware and in control of it. I guess poor Dorukan & Lirian are trapped forever then because I can picture no reason Xykon would be desperate to talk to someone who knows more about the gates than he does. After all, Redcloak has hidden nothing from Xykon about the gates and been totally honest about how they can be used to control the Snarl :smallwink:

More seriously, I am inclined to think they'll have some small part to play in the story, otherwise why have their souls imprisoned instead of sent to the afterlife? I don't think Lirian and Dorukan be solving problems for the Stick, but maybe the Stick can solve their problems, such as the fact they are both stuck in a soul gem.

[NerdyKris]

So yeah, Dorukan and Lirian aren't getting rescued.

Before the end of the story at least. It is a loose end that will very likely be wrapped up during the ending at the very least. It would be nice to have the last two (three?) members of the Order ushered off to their appropriate afterlife. But in regards to the plot, the soul gem's purpose is to prevent the only two people who already know how to seal the gates from relaying that information to the Order. Soon and Girard wouldn't know, even if they used a "talk with dead" spell. We still don't know why Serini is out of commission, but it's unlikely she would know the spell either.

[hroþila]

I am inclined to think they'll have some small part to play in the story, otherwise why have their souls imprisoned instead of sent to the afterlife?
Maybe because those panels where Lirian was reunited with Dorukan and it wasn't a prison anymore were worth it for their own sake.

[factotum]

More seriously, I am inclined to think they'll have some small part to play in the story, otherwise why have their souls imprisoned instead of sent to the afterlife?

Because we're in a world where resurrection is a thing? Soul Bind makes 100% certain that no resurrection is possible so long as they're trapped in the gem, and that might be enough reason for it to have been used (from a plot point of view).

[Yendor]

Because we're in a world where resurrection is a thing? Soul Bind makes 100% certain that no resurrection is possible so long as they're trapped in the gem, and that might be enough reason for it to have been used (from a plot point of view).

In fact, I'm pretty sure the fact Lirian couldn't be resurrected was the point. That's how Dorukan got lured out of his castle.

[Quebbster]

Maybe because those panels where Lirian was reunited with Dorukan and it wasn't a prison anymore were worth it for their own sake.
I agree with this. Their story has gotten a decent resolution, we'll see if they ever appear back in the main story again.
After all, Elan is the only one who can count on getting a happy ending to the story.

[Kish]

Because we're in a world where resurrection is a thing? Soul Bind makes 100% certain that no resurrection is possible so long as they're trapped in the gem, and that might be enough reason for it to have been used (from a plot point of view).
Which also requires the soul gem to still be intact, not "handwave destroyed off-panel" like some people think.

I'm pretty sure we'll see the soul gem again, but that seeing it again may well take the form of the gem being smashed and the souls in it heading off to the Neutral Good afterlife in one of the last few strips of the entire comic, as part of the post-victory wrap-up.

[unbeliever536]

Which also requires the soul gem to still be intact, not "handwave destroyed off-panel" like some people think.

I'm pretty sure we'll see the soul gem again, but that seeing it again may well take the form of the gem being smashed and the souls in it heading off to the Neutral Good afterlife in one of the last few strips of the entire comic, as part of the post-victory wrap-up.

This is what I'd bet on as well.

[ChillerInstinct]

Which also requires the soul gem to still be intact, not "handwave destroyed off-panel" like some people think.

I'm pretty sure we'll see the soul gem again, but that seeing it again may well take the form of the gem being smashed and the souls in it heading off to the Neutral Good afterlife in one of the last few strips of the entire comic, as part of the post-victory wrap-up.

Heck, just to make sure it gets brought up for people not in the loop, maybe Xykon will pull it out and threaten the Order/Redcloak/anyone else who stands against him with eternal torture during his last dance, complete with a shot of those two trapped within just to drive it home.

But yeah, it's really the only realistic scenario at this point.

[unbeliever536]

Heck, just to make sure it gets brought up for people not in the loop, maybe Xykon will pull it out and threaten the Order/Redcloak/anyone else who stands against him with eternal torture during his last dance, complete with a shot of those two trapped within just to drive it home.

But yeah, it's really the only realistic scenario at this point.

Perhaps with a, "Wait, those guys were imprisoned in a gem?" from Haley or someone. (I'd expect it from Belkar, but he's expected to be dead by then).

[Edhelras]

The spell description for Soul Bind also says that "the soul cannot be returned, even using Miracle or Wish"--if those spells won't work to return the soul from its bondage, I think it's reasonable to assume the soul can't be contacted either.

What a horrible spell!

Good thing they got each other, though.

What an interesting adventure seed: A dirt farmer cracks a black stone with his pick, and voilà releases the souls of some long-lost magicians or ancient priests, the captives of a long-forgotten war....

[Reboot]

The spell description for Soul Bind also says that "the soul cannot be returned, even using Miracle or Wish"--if those spells won't work to return the soul from its bondage, I think it's reasonable to assume the soul can't be contacted either.
Can you use one of those spells to nick the gem, and then smash it the ol'fashioned way, though?


Good thing they got each other, though.

I dunno. Think about it - trapped in a black void, nothing and no-one except one other person for years - and possibly as close to "forever" as is conceivable. That's a recipe for falling deeply out of love with the other person...

[factotum]

Can you use one of those spells to nick the gem, and then smash it the ol'fashioned way, though?

Probably, but you'd need to know the gem actually existed to do that, and that information is presumably not widely available. Plus, no-one on Team Good is high enough level to cast Miracle or Wish.

[DreadPirateDB]

What a horrible spell!

Good thing they got each other, though.

What an interesting adventure seed: A dirt farmer cracks a black stone with his pick, and voilà releases the souls of some long-lost magicians or ancient priests, the captives of a long-forgotten war....

That's roughly the start of Disney's live action The Magician's Apprentice.

[StLordeth]

I assume we'll see the gem again if we get a final showdown in the astral fortress.

[Kish]

What does the gem have to do with the astral fortress?

[The gF]

What does the gem have to do with the astral fortress?

If it's intact, it's probably there, with his phylactery.

(Well, with what he THINKS is his phylactery.)

Actually that would kind of suck for them. The fact that the phylactery in the astral fortress is a fake means there's no real plot-related reason for the party to ever go there.

[littlebum2002]

Actually that would kind of suck for them. The fact that the phylactery in the astral fortress is a fake means there's no real plot-related reason for the party to ever go there.

"Protagonists spend ages tracking down ancient artifact, only to find out it's fake/already been stolen/swapped with another" is a very well-used trope.

[The gF]

"Protagonists spend ages tracking down ancient artifact, only to find out it's fake/already been stolen/swapped with another" is a very well-used trope.

Right, but they have no reason to assume it's there. I suppose they could acquire that knowledge and go AHA WE WILL GO GET IT BEFORE WE KILL XYKON but man, it would feel like a long, wasted arc when we all already know it's a fake, and that Redcloak still has the real one. It doesn't feel like the right way to use that McGuffin. More likely, it's going to be Redcloak producing the phylactery to betray Xykon at a critical moment later.

[EmperorSarda]

"Protagonists spend ages tracking down ancient artifact, only to find out it's fake/already been stolen/swapped with another" is a very well-used trope.

As the GF said, The Order of the Stick has no clue about the fortress. With learning that Xykon has recovered the phylactery they will assume that Redcloak will keep it again. They have no clues that Xykon built a fortress in the astral plane.

[littlebum2002]

Right, but they have no reason to assume it's there. I suppose they could acquire that knowledge and go AHA WE WILL GO GET IT BEFORE WE KILL XYKON but man, it would feel like a long, wasted arc when we all already know it's a fake, and that Redcloak still has the real one. It doesn't feel like the right way to use that McGuffin. More likely, it's going to be Redcloak producing the phylactery to betray Xykon at a critical moment later.


As the GF said, The Order of the Stick has no clue about the fortress. With learning that Xykon has recovered the phylactery they will assume that Redcloak will keep it again. They have no clues that Xykon built a fortress in the astral plane.

These are true, but somehow I doubt the fortress was brought into the story just to never be mentioned again. At SOPME point for SOME reason our heroes are going to travel there. We just don't know why yet.

[hroþila]

These are true, but somehow I doubt the fortress was brought into the story just to never be mentioned again. At SOPME point for SOME reason our heroes are going to travel there. We just don't know why yet.
The fortress already serves a purpose: it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his concerns regarding Redcloak. That's enough of a reason. Sure, it could pop up again, but it doesn't have to, and personally I don't think it will.

[littlebum2002]

The fortress already serves a purpose: it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his concerns regarding Redcloak. That's enough of a reason. Sure, it could pop up again, but it doesn't have to, and personally I don't think it will.

Xykon not letting Redcloak hold the phylactary is enough to show he isn't trusted anymore. Xykon could have just put it in his pocket, though. The fortress was introduced for another reason. And while it isn't THE most blatant Checkov's Fortress I've ever seen, it's definately up there. Author's don't generally go "BTW, the BBEG has this super cool hidden final base with lots of booby traps and monsters" unless the heroes are going there at some point to defeat them.

[hroþila]

Xykon not letting Redcloak hold the phylactary is enough to show he isn't trusted anymore. Xykon could have just put it in his pocket, though. The fortress was introduced for another reason. And while it isn't THE most blatant Checkov's Fortress I've ever seen, it's definately up there. Author's don't generally go "BTW, the BBEG has this super cool hidden final base with lots of booby traps and monsters" unless the heroes are going there at some point to defeat them.
What good does carrying the phylactery on his person do to Xykon? If he's ever destroyed, Redcloak could simply pick it up and it'd be just as if he had been carrying it all around. Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak enough to be at ease with the idea of being at his mercy while he regenerates (not even with his MitD trump card), it's not just about Redcloak doing something to the phylactery while Xykon is still around.

[littlebum2002]

What good does carrying the phylactery on his person do to Xykon? If he's ever destroyed, Redcloak could simply pick it up and it'd be just as if he had been carrying it all around. Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak enough to be at ease with the idea of being at his mercy while he regenerates (not even with his MitD trump card), it's not just about Redcloak doing something to the phylactery while Xykon is still around.

It's just a matter of opinion. While I admit it's entirely possible that the BBEG mentions his super secret lair filled with traps and spells and it's never mentioned again, I just don't think it's very likely, especially considering I can't think of one example off the top of my head of that ever happening in a story before.

[Kish]

How many examples can you think of of the villain mentioning his secret lair filled with traps and spells and the audience already knowing that what he's claiming is in it, what he built it to protect, actually isn't in it?

(Also, you realize you didn't answer hroþila's question.)

[Father Miles]

Both Redcloak and MiTD know about the Astral Fortress now. It is odd that he chose to take it away from Redcloak but then tell him of its storage location.

[littlebum2002]

How many examples can you think of of the villain mentioning his secret lair filled with traps and spells and the audience already knowing that what he's claiming is in it, what he built it to protect, actually isn't in it?

I can certainly think of each example, individually. There are many examples of heroes having to infiltrate the villain's lair, and many examples of the audience knowing the hero is chasing a red herring. I would assume the two tropes would overlap at some point, but can't think of one off the top of my head



(Also, you realize you didn't answer hroþila's question.)

Because there's nothing to say: he's right. Hiding the phylactary from Redcloak is useless unless you hide it somewhere Redcloak can't even go.

However, the question does remain as to WHY he doesn't want Redcloak to have it. If it's because "he's worried Redcloak will destroy it", then yes, he needs to hide it there. But I was under the impression that "he doesn't want Redcloak to lose it again", in which case hiding it in his pocket would suffice.

So since he and I have different opinions on what Xykon's motives on, we obviously have different opinions on what his actions should be.

[Rift_Wolf]

However, the question does remain as to WHY he doesn't want Redcloak to have it. If it's because "he's worried Redcloak will destroy it", then yes, he needs to hide it there. But I was under the impression that "he doesn't want Redcloak to lose it again", in which case hiding it in his pocket would suffice.

So since he and I have different opinions on what Xykon's motives on, we obviously have different opinions on what his actions should be.

His phylactery is the only thing keeping him immortal. After V/Ochul came within INCHES of destroying it, Xykon decided 'thats it, I start taking security seriously!' and having Redcloak wave round his soul-hidey-place in front of Soon, O-chul and anyone who he spent a spell slot on wasn't the best way of stopping people breaking it. He could keep it in his pocket; who knows? Maybe it'll get overlooked if he gets destroyed again. Or maybe keep his achilles heel in an impenetrable death fortress which is hidden in the Plane of Hiding Things, and only he knows the coordinates to find it?
And as far as I can tell, the soul gem containing the two casters from Scribble is a big hefty 'NO' to all questions about them. The Scribbles been written out, and great lengths have been gone to to make sure they have no more interaction with the story. So rules-wise and story-wise, the answer would be no.

[hroþila]

The way I see it, Xykon's little game with Tsukiko and his half of the ritual, together with the Giant's commentary, strongly suggests Xykon is starting to worry about Redcloak's schemes, not merely about his potential incompetence in handling his phylactery. Xykon never trusted Redcloak completely, of course (hence why he mind-controlled the MitD), but now he's starting to see Redcloak as a powerful player on his own.

Xykon thought it best to pretend he didn't know anything about what Tsukiko was doing, after all. That was VERY telling.

[Kish]

However, the question does remain as to WHY he doesn't want Redcloak to have it. If it's because "he's worried Redcloak will destroy it", then yes, he needs to hide it there. But I was under the impression that "he doesn't want Redcloak to lose it again", in which case hiding it in his pocket would suffice.
Forget Redcloak. What's the point to a phylactery existing if the lich "hides" it in his pocket? "We destroyed Xykon! Now we need to hunt down his phylactery...oh wait, looks like that Disintegrate did for it as well."

[littlebum2002]

Forget Redcloak. What's the point to a phylactery existing if the lich "hides" it in his pocket? "We destroyed Xykon! Now we need to hunt down his phylactery...oh wait, looks like that Disintegrate did for it as well."

Well he was within 10' or so of his phylactery for the vast majority of his unlife as a lich. It's only when Redcloak proved he wasn't good at defending it (or wasn't trustworthy enough to hold it, whichever you prefer) that Xykon actually realized it was best hidden somewhere secure.

[Kish]

Do you seriously see "in his pocket" as the same as "on another sapient creature"? Check back to what happened at the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan, and tell me that it would have been just the same if Xykon's phylactery had been in his pocket.