Help me balance this party

[stanprollyright]

So in a couple days we're starting a new campaign at 1st level with a mad bomber Alchemist, gnome Cavalier, and a human melee Paladin. I had originally made a Skald before the Alchemist and Paladin players joined, but now I feel that we'll have a really unbalanced party. Too many potential faces, too much melee, no skillmonkey, and no full casters. If this were 3.5 it would be simple to go Cloistered Cleric with the Spell domain, but alas, this cannot be so. What kind of class/archetype combo should I use to balance these guys out?

[Florian]

Witch would come to mind.

[Novawurmson]

Yeah, witch would work. Druid or shaman would work. Ranged inquisitor, hunter or warpriest could be fun. Basically, any divine-ish caster is a good starting point. Maybe Psychic? There's a good psychic guide out there (check the optimization compendium in my signature).

[stanprollyright]

Maybe Psychic? There's a good psychic guide out there (check the optimization compendium in my signature).

No 3rd Party, so no Psionics.

[stanprollyright]

So I'm thinking Shaman will give me the casting versatility I need, though I'm looking at Witch as a close second choice. Build suggestions?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

They said Psychic, not Psion. Psychic is from Occult Adventures.

[stanprollyright]

They said Psychic, not Psion. Psychic is from Occult Adventures.

Oh. I guess I don't have that book.

[nedz]

Unbalanced parties can work — provided that the DM is up to it.

No full casters actually helps party balance. I'd consider going with the skill monkey of your choice, probably with a little casting: so some kind of Bard would work quite well. So stay will Skald, or switch to another Bard type.

[Florian]

So I'm thinking Shaman will give me the casting versatility I need, though I'm looking at Witch as a close second choice. Build suggestions?

In both cases, I'd rely on hexes and do the basic buff/lockdown routine with evil eye, chant/cackle, fortune and missfortune. If retraining is an option, I'd use extra hex to gain these faster.

[Novawurmson]

The psychic is from Occult Adventures, but it's free and legal on the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/psychic).

If you want to go skill monkey, the unchained rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained) is great.

[Captain Morgan]

Unbalanced parties can work — provided that the DM is up to it.

No full casters actually helps party balance. I'd consider going with the skill monkey of your choice, probably with a little casting: so some kind of Bard would work quite well. So stay will Skald, or switch to another Bard type.

Yeah, it's interesting, especially at the higher levels. A good DM won't throw a ton of skill challenges at a party without a skill monkey. While this may necessitate some more work from the DM to revise "standard" play, this also means the characters are more likely to be balanced with each other.

[stanprollyright]

I'm just worried that not having access to flight or dispel magic for so long will be a bad idea, and while Skalds and Paladins have some healing, neither has reliable condition mitigation. The DM could get around these issues, but I don't want to face a series of progressively meatier monsters with no special abilities because all we can do is HP damage. That sounds utterly boring.

I'm also not that concerned about intra-party balance. I'm the only optimizer, and I have a support-y playstyle.

[nedz]

Character Optimisation and Strong Play are not necessarily the same thing, but if you are also the strongest player then taking a higher tier class will mean that you end up playing in easy mode.

[Novawurmson]

At this point, you're thinking about playing a Shaman, and would like build advice, yes?

[stanprollyright]

At this point, you're thinking about playing a Shaman, and would like build advice, yes?

Yes please.

[Florian]

Yes please.

So, Debuff > Support > Healing.

Any special considerations or houserules, any fluff or regional things to look out for? What PB is used, is rettaining an option?

[stanprollyright]

Any special considerations or houserules, any fluff or regional things to look out for? What PB is used, is rettaining an option?

Nothing that I know of. I don't know anything about the campaign world or house rules or what kind of stuff the DM is amenable to. I've played with him before under another DM.

20 point buy. No 3rd Party. 2 traits, 1 drawback. No evil.

So far I'm human, middle aged, Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 8. Heavens spirit, skunk spirit animal. I'm going to ask if I can take Extra Hex at 1st level.

[Novawurmson]

Edit: Missed your next post while typing this up. Sorry for non-relevant information. The skunk sounds nifty.

Okeedokee. I feel like the conversation was getting off track.

To begin with, I'd like to specify that I've never played a shaman or seen one in play, but I have seen/played multiple oracles and witches (the parent classes), and the concept seems to be the same. Not sure if you've played these classes before, so I'll try to be a bit more thorough for now.

Unlike with the oracle, it seems your choice of spirit determines much less of your overall build and effectiveness. While oracles vary fairly strongly with their mystery choice, shamans are a little more "grounded" by their shared pool of hexes (i.e. a life mystery oracle, battle mystery oracle and flame mystery oracle will play much more differently than a life spirit shaman, battle spirit shaman, and flame spirit shaman). The good news here is that you don't need to agonize as much about your spirit choice - you can effectively contribute to your party no matter what spirit you choose. Once you hit level 4, your Wandering Spirit will give you a second, swappable spirit each day anyway, making this choice even less critical - Wandering Spirit doesn't let you choose hexes from your second spirit, so it's probably make your final choice of spirit based on hexes and spirit animal ability, not

Unfortunately, you don't get a hex until level 2. Once you do, you'll probably want to spend your level 3 feat on Extra Hex - and possibly more, depending on your playstyle. Wandering Hex will help a little, but the witch and shaman hex lists are so filled with goodies that you probably won't get everything you want until mid to high levels. Sleep (probably your first choice), Chant, Evil Eye, Fortune, Misfortune, Shapeshift, and Scar (with errata) are good places to start. Plenty are just fluffy, fun abilities, but there's meat there to make the optimizer in you drool. Also, those are just the witch and base shaman hexes, before the ones you can pick up specific to your main spirit - some spirit hexes, like Life's Life Link, are the subject of whole builds (check out the Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-Or-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot)).

Glancing over the spell list, it looks like it has all the support goodies you discussed wanting - healing, condition removal, flight, dispelling, etc.

Important to think about is your familiar. If it's just going to sit on your shoulder and exchange witty banter, then pick the one you like or the bonus you like and forget about it (any of the +4 to initiative ones are fine). If you want to do something with your familiar, check out familiar archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes). There's plenty of uses for them - a Sage essentially gives you bardic knowledge on your familiar, while a Bodyguard is just going to grant adjacent allies a small but useful bonus to AC, and a Valet can run touch spells to your allies and gets all of your teamwork feats. I'm thinking specifically about the Mauler though. Some of the spirit animal bonuses are useful in a combat context, such as Stone's DR 5/adamantine from level 1 (meaning immune to most danger in combat), Mammoth's bonus to strength, and Bone's permanent blur effect.

Anyway, that's a huge information dump. What kind of information/suggestions are you looking for now or builds are you considering?

[Florian]

Nothing that I know of. I don't know anything about the campaign world or house rules or what kind of stuff the DM is amenable to. I've played with him before under another DM.

20 point buy. No 3rd Party. 2 traits, 1 drawback. No evil.

So far I'm human, middle aged, Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 8. Heavens spirit, skunk spirit animal. I'm going to ask if I can take Extra Hex at 1st level.

Personally, I'd go Aasimar and Life spirit, lower Wis, higher Cha, at least when your gm is going to disregard RP influence on APL. Heavens not that great at the lower levels and you can later on have easy access with wandering hex, as it gets more relevant at levels 5 and up. The skunk is a good start, but do plan on taking Improved Familiar later on. Chose NG and a Silvanshee would be a nice possibility.

[stanprollyright]

Personally, I'd go Aasimar and Life spirit, lower Wis, higher Cha, at least when your gm is going to disregard RP influence on APL. Heavens not that great at the lower levels and you can later on have easy access with wandering hex, as it gets more relevant at levels 5 and up. The skunk is a good start, but do plan on taking Improved Familiar later on. Chose NG and a Silvanshee would be a nice possibility.

What's APL?

I took heavens largely because it had Color Spray as its 1st level spell... Life looks nice, but I don't think I'll be casting detect undead every day, and I've already got healing spells on my list. Plus, being a healbot doesn't appeal to me all that much. Point taken with the Cha though.

New abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 13. I figured I might as well dump str because I won't be doing any melee.

[Firest Kathon]

mad bomber Alchemist, [...] no skillmonkey,
The Alchemist is quite a Skillmonkey, with 4 + Int ranks as an Int-dependent class (especially when going the Bomber route) and the important stuff like Disable Device and UMD on the class skill list.

What's APL?
Average Party Level, i.e. the average level of all party members (usually all PCs).

[Florian]

What's APL?

I took heavens largely because it had Color Spray as its 1st level spell... Life looks nice, but I don't think I'll be casting detect undead every day, and I've already got healing spells on my list. Plus, being a healbot doesn't appeal to me all that much. Point taken with the Cha though.

New abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 13. I figured I might as well dump str because I won't be doing any melee.

APL is Average Party Level, a cornerstone of how CR is calculated in PF. Chosing a higher-than-average RP race can have the impact of having your party as a whole simply count higher towards what CR is appropriate. Roughly, one assimar/tiefling in a party doesn't have an impact, two will impact all encounters until lvl 5...

"Life" has some real benefits. Unlike clerics, you can spontaneously cast most of all anti-status-affecting spells out there, but you'll rely heavil on channeling for healing. That you do get for free with that spirit.

That pretty much frees up all your spell slots for the good stuff and relevant buffs/debuffs and is worth quit a bit. Yeah, Colour Spray is a fantastic spell but basing your choice of spirit solely on that will be a waste later on.

As for counting on a Hex early on and dumping Str along the way: Don't do that, don't over-optimize in that way when your fellow players can't step in and compensate for you.
Try sticking to what works, meaning Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon early on, sticking to the front lines. This is a oretty good boost to your damage output and economy of action. Do remember, outsiders gain better proficiencies...

[dpatino]

Is a 6 str wise for a class that wears armor? Just a suit of medium armor will put you in medium encumbrance, let alone anything else you want to carry.

[stanprollyright]

Is a 6 str wise for a class that wears armor? Just a suit of medium armor will put you in medium encumbrance, let alone anything else you want to carry.

I've since reconfigured to 8 str. Also, encumbrance from armor and encumbrance from weight don't stack, so as long as I stay below heavy encumbrance I'm fine.

[dpatino]

I've since reconfigured to 8 str. Also, encumbrance from armor and encumbrance from weight don't stack, so as long as I stay below heavy encumbrance I'm fine.

Well your max would be lbs. I recommend just keeping an eye on that.