Hobgoblins... LA +1?

[kpenguin]

I suppose the reason that WotC gave the hob LA +1 is because of their +2 to both Con and Dex without any penalties (that +4 to move silently really wouldn't justify it). It does look a wee bit good for a LA +0 race, but not good enough bonuses to be a LA +1. I'm considering making the hobs LA +0. What are your thoughts?

[Ryuuk]

You might want to consider adding to the Hobgoblin to make the +1 LA justifiable instead of dropping it. It´s still a net +4 to your starting ability scores were most other no LA races have a net +0 or lower ability adjustment. The only other races I´ve seen with +4 are the lesser variants for the Aasimar and Tiefling, which I´ve seen mixed opinions for.

[Ulzgoroth]

They make extremely good rogues or arcanists... At LA 0, hobgoblin wizard would certainly have more going for it than Elf wizard.

[kpenguin]

Yes. To me, the hobgoblin's problem is that is stuck betwwen Level Adjustments. Its too good to be LA +0, but doesn't have enough to be LA +1.

Any ideas on what to add to make the LA +1 justifiable? What to take out to make it LA +0?

[Tellah]

I give them Powerful Build, like the Goliath.

[Ryuuk]

I give them Powerful Build, like the Goliath.

How about powerful build but making them Small actually. This would make them just as good as hiding and sneaking as regular goblins, but keep the whole bigger a badder quality.

[Seffbasilisk]

I'd give them a fighter bonus feat level 1, and maybe a straight bonus on spot, listen, survival, and perform: weapon's drill.

[Diggorian]

I see them as the commanders/leaders of goblin kind, so I'd give'em a +4 to Intimidate. Being tacticians by nature, and having Nomog-Geia the Torturer as a patron deity, they'd know how to get foes to back down.

[Jasdoif]

This might not be the best approach, but have you thought about giving them 2 racial hit dice and eliminating the level adjustment? RHD are strictly better then LA.

[kjones]

Why not give 'em a point or two of Natural Armor? Hobbos seem like the type to have thick skins. Is that, along with stat bonuses, too much for LA +1? Too little? I'm AFB at the moment...

[Dryad]

To keep in flavour with the move silently bonus: Add the same number to hide, and we're all happy, no? lvl adj. +1`is good enough, then, I think.

[ArmorArmadillo]

In answer to your question, LA 0 races can't have net stat bonuses.

Hobbos were never designed to be a player race, so they could use some punching up if you wanted to.

However, do not give them Powerful Build.

NEVER give ANYTHING Powerful Build.

NEVER EVER EVER!

It's a horribly unbalanced ability, you should never add it to anything unless you're adding another +1 La.

[Piccamo]

In answer to your question, LA 0 races can't have net stat bonuses.

Hobbos were never designed to be a player race, so they could use some punching up if you wanted to.

However, do not give them Powerful Build.

NEVER give ANYTHING Powerful Build.

NEVER EVER EVER!

It's a horribly unbalanced ability, you should never add it to anything unless you're adding another +1 La.

In my custom campaign I made dwarves small size and gave them powerful build. It works well enough. Powerful Build is good and is generally worth a +1 LA, but its not the end of the world.

[Catch]

Hobbos were never designed to be a player race, so they could use some punching up if you wanted to.

Neither were kobolds, but... y'know.

As far as adjusting the Hobgoblin, making them fit an LA +0 is a problem, as the standard balancing method is a physical penalty in exchange for a physical bonus, or two mental penalties for a single physical bonus. Since the Hobgoblin has two physical ability bonuses, by the numbers, it's worth the LA +1.

Compared with the Tiefling which has one physical bonus, one mental bonus and one mental penalty, and the Aasimar which has two mental bonuses, the Hobgoblin's stat bonuses are superior, as physical stats have more "weight" in terms of stat value. This makes up for their lack of SLAs or other bonuses.

[Skjaldbakka]

I like the small size + powerful build idea. I don't know what the big deal is with powerful build. I could really see 4.0 dwarves being small size with powerful build, rather than medium size.

[Piccamo]

Neither were kobolds, but... y'know.

As far as adjusting the Hobgoblin, making them fit an LA +0 is a problem, as the standard balancing method is a physical penalty in exchange for a physical bonus, or two mental penalties for a single physical bonus. Since the Hobgoblin has two physical ability bonuses, by the numbers, it's worth the LA +1.

Compared with the Tiefling which has one physical bonus, one mental bonus and one mental penalty, and the Aasimar which has two mental bonuses, the Hobgoblin's stat bonuses are superior, as physical stats have more "weight" in terms of stat value. This makes up for their lack of SLAs or other bonuses.

No. That is incorrect. That is when you are only looking at damage in combat. Unfortunately players who seek out mental bonuses are doing so to pump up the save DCs of their spells, which are generally more devastating than a physical boost.

[Diggorian]

Small plus powerful build is cheesy. Nothing about hobgoblin says small, nothing. Dwarves, you can argue. Maybe even Bugbears could be medium with powerful build. Hobs, nah. Better to just give them a flat out +1 to attack or AC to reflect their martial heritage.

I'm quite satisfied with them as is. If I had wanted to give them something it would be the skill bonus I mention above. Powerful build was created to keep Half giants and other creatures on the Medium/Large border in line with full giants and larger creatures: grapple bonus and medium attack/AC modifiers in exchange for smaller reach and lower speed.

[Person_Man]

Most core rules seem retardedly weak compared to anything written in the last year or two, including the LA of the MMI races. There are certainly exceptions (Druid, Wizard) but pretty much everyone will tell you that Hobgoblins are a weak +1 LA race. In my campaign world, I give the one free Exotic Weapon Prof or Tower Shield Prof. But even then you should keep in mind that even the strong races with LA are usually a bad idea, since higher level spells and class abilities are more important then stat bonuses and minor bonuses.

[Tor the Fallen]

What's so special about powerful build?

[Nerd-o-rama]

physical stats have more "weight" in terms of stat value. This makes up for their lack of SLAs or other bonuses.
I know this is the official reasoning from wizards on why Half-Orcs get the shaft in terms of stat adjustments for an LA 0 race, and why they made Tieflings inferior to their Aasimar cousins. However, I wish to point to the dwarf (+2 Con, -2 Cha) and pretend to stifle a sneeze while really saying quite clearly "bull****".

As for dealing with Hobgoblins, I've come to the conclusion that it's easier to buff them up to a definite +1 rather than nerfing them down to a solid 0, which would require a stat penalty somewhere. As it is, giving them NA or a Fighter Feat sounds like a good bet.

[Fourth Tempter]

In answer to your question, LA 0 races can't have net stat bonuses.

Hobbos were never designed to be a player race, so they could use some punching up if you wanted to.

However, do not give them Powerful Build.

NEVER give ANYTHING Powerful Build.

NEVER EVER EVER!

It's a horribly unbalanced ability, you should never add it to anything unless you're adding another +1 La.

Wherefore?

[Tellah]

In answer to your question, LA 0 races can't have net stat bonuses.

Hobbos were never designed to be a player race, so they could use some punching up if you wanted to.

However, do not give them Powerful Build.

NEVER give ANYTHING Powerful Build.

NEVER EVER EVER!

It's a horribly unbalanced ability, you should never add it to anything unless you're adding another +1 La.

Why? How does wielding a large-sized weapon break the game?

[MaxMahem]

Bah, even as they stand it seems that the bonus feat and skill points humans have are still more valuable than a hobgoblins stat adjustments. I would give them a -2 penalty to charisma checks vrs non-goblinoids and call it a day.

Makes them better then elves and the like, but it's not the hobgoblins fault that pretty much all other races suck in comparison to humans. So don't penalize them for it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Why? How does wielding a large-sized weapon break the game?
This is why Powerful Build annoys me to no end; people see it and think: "Ooh, large weapons. Seems fair." and then slap it on every race they think of without thinking of all of the implications:
Wielding Larger weapons
+4 to all opposed checks (Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, etc.)
No Attack or AC penalty
No opposed check penalties (Hide, Move Silently)
No Limitations on Mobility.

It's not just the loads of abilities: it's the fact that large size, which grants those abilities, has some balances to prevent these abilities from getting out of hand which are ignored by PB! It's not "half-way to Large" it's much better than Large!

It's a sloppy, badly designed ability and the proof is seen in the races that have Powerful Build, namely Goliaths, being way too powerful for their LA!

[Tor the Fallen]

The real benefit of large size is improved reach. Getting +4 on opposed checks and using a weapon one category bigger is hardly anything special.

[The_Chilli_God]

I heard of some DM's introducing a feat for Hobgoblin characters that makes them LA+0 characters. So it's the player's choice - either have one less feat, or one less class level.

I feel this way is slightly cleaner than modifying the racial stats themselves.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Give them some free proficiencies maybe. Wouldn't balance them totaly but would make them more PC worthy. Maybe a +2 on saves vs fear as well to represent mental conditioning.

[Morty]

All "monstrous races", even those with no LA are weak. Look at orcs, goblins, and, of course kobolds. It's not just hobgoblins.

[Talya]

The real benefit of large size is improved reach. Getting +4 on opposed checks and using a weapon one category bigger is hardly anything special.

Exactly, and powerful build does not grant longer reach.

[AtomicKitKat]

*points to signature*

Drop either the Dex or Con, give them a penalty to Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma, and call it a day.

[Theodoxus]

Why no mental stat adjustment... Hobbos never came across are particularly smart, wise or charismatic. Pick one and be done with it.

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't have anything useful to add to the Hobgoblin discussion, but the idea of making Dwarves small with powerful build really appeals to me. I think you'd have to drop some of their other abilities to balance it out. Offhand, their bonuses against certain races could go, since you're essentially giving them the equivalent. If, unlike just about every other small race, they have no strength penalty, then they still make the fiercest little guys underground.

[ArmorArmadillo]

The real benefit of large size is improved reach. Getting +4 on opposed checks and using a weapon one category bigger is hardly anything special.

But nobody would consider an LA 1 race with Large Size (Unless they're horrible designers). I wouldn't be so horrified by PB if people were willing to admit that it, alone, bumps up the LA by 1.

[Maroon]

I don't have anything useful to add to the Hobgoblin discussion, but the idea of making Dwarves small with powerful build really appeals to me. I think you'd have to drop some of their other abilities to balance it out. Offhand, their bonuses against certain races could go, since you're essentially giving them the equivalent. If, unlike just about every other small race, they have no strength penalty, then they still make the fiercest little guys underground.
First, dwarves are neither small-sized nor small-weight (as in, never shorter than 4 feet and weighting as much as a human). Second, they're already way overpowered for an LA +0 race without the brokeness of PB.

[Fax Celestis]

But nobody would consider an LA 1 race with Large Size (Unless they're horrible designers). I wouldn't be so horrified by PB if people were willing to admit that it, alone, bumps up the LA by 1.

It does. However, the features of the half-giant are not in and of themselves not worth LA +1 without Powerful Build. Therefore, the half-giant is LA +1.

[Theodoxus]

First, dwarves are neither small-sized nor small-weight (as in, never shorter than 4 feet and weighting as much as a human). Second, they're already way overpowered for an LA +0 race without the brokeness of PB.

As written, that's correct. But if you shrink them down a bit, to the size of gnomes +1/4 or so, that'd do it.

I also think that the charisma things a joke. If they have a hit to it for being dour, then gnomes and halflings should get a bonus for being jokesters and cute, respectively.

Give dwarves small size, +2 con, -2 dex (the small size makes up for the dex hit, but it doesn't completely compensate for skill or feat reqs) and add powerful build and you have quite the decent race.

[Tellah]

But nobody would consider an LA 1 race with Large Size (Unless they're horrible designers). I wouldn't be so horrified by PB if people were willing to admit that it, alone, bumps up the LA by 1.

Yeah, and I'm slapping Powerful Build on Hobgoblins and retaining the +1 LA. It's equivalent to a Half-Giant or Goliath in power, so where's the harm?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

But nobody would consider an LA 1 race with Large Size (Unless they're horrible designers). I wouldn't be so horrified by PB if people were willing to admit that it, alone, bumps up the LA by 1.

It's not, actually. The reason half-giant and goliath are LA +1 is because they're not humanoids. (They're giants and monstrous humanoids, respectively.) This gives them immunity to a good number of spells.

And while I would never consider a Large ECL 0 race, I would consider one with powerful build. They did it already. It was a regional feat for humans called Jotunbrud. So that gives you a race with powerful build, one bonus skill point, favored class any, and the ability to learn any language. I'd say that's pretty balanced.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's not, actually. The reason half-giant and goliath are LA +1 is because they're not humanoids. (They're giants and monstrous humanoids, respectively.) This gives them immunity to a good number of spells.
I don't think non-humanoid type has ever really been calculated into Level Adjustment. Sure, it may make you immune to <x> person spells, but it also makes you vulnerable to spells and effects that specifically target your creature type. Of course, there really aren't many official examples of that kind of effect, but the potential's there. I mused on the concept in another thread several months ago, actually. It's something that's bothered me for a while.

In any case, I think if any creature type bumps LA, it tends to be on account of specific immunities—such as those brought on by the dragon and undead types—rather than simply "Can't be affected by charm person."

[ArmorArmadillo]

It does. However, the features of the half-giant are not in and of themselves not worth LA +1 without Powerful Build. Therefore, the half-giant is LA +1.
They have a net stat bonus, an PLA, and 2 bonus power points. I suppose if you dialed down the stats, they'd be on the 0 edge of LA 0 and LA 1. However, with PB, they're on the 2 Edge of LA 1 and LA 2.

As for the Non-Humanoid type: that isn't the reasoning, at least not based on precedent. Immunity to Charm Person and such spells is extremely situational, and rarely helps the party as it just means that the DM either prepares different spells, or uses those spells on other party members to relatively equal effect.
Also, there have been multiple races with non-human types, namely outsiders such as Neraphim (Who are admittedly overpowered, but not because of their Type) and Bouman's that are LA 0, and Outsider is a much better type than M-Humanoid.

[bosssmiley]

LA +1 Hobgobs?


Give them the same 'racial hate' bonus to hit ability against Elves that Dwarves and Gnomes have against (IIRC) giants, orcs and/or goblinoids. It's been in hobgoblin fluff since 1st Ed that they hate Elves with a passion.
Add racial Weapon Familiarity (treat particular exotic weapon as martial weapon) to taste: spiked chain in Eberron, bastard sword elsewhere...

The above and their 2 stat bumps, darkvision and racial +4 to Move Silently seems more on par with the LA+1 Planetouched.

Filby of DiceFreaks suggests the following for LA +1 Hobs
(being of DiceFreaks origin this is probably a bit rich for most tastes though):


Filby: A while ago, someone noted that as a LA +1 race, hobgoblins really don't measure up. Furthermore, their ability scores and skill bonuses don't really reflect their traditional roles as the tough-as-nails heavy bruisers of the savage humanoids. So in the spirit of Jaerom's orc and genasi revisions, here's my attempt at revising the hobgoblin.

Hobgoblin Racial Traits
-- +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con. Hobgoblins are strong, tough, and quick.
-- Medium size. As Medium creatures, hobgoblins have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-- Hobgoblin base land speed is 30 feet. Hobgoblins can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such a situation).
-- Darkvision (Ex): Hobgoblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and hobgoblins can function just fine with no light at all.
-- Weapon Proficiency: Hobgoblins are automatically proficient with the longsword.
-- Weapon Familiarity: Hobgoblins treat bastard swords as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
-- +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Like all goblinoids, hobgoblins are adept at stealth.
-- +4 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Hobgoblins have forceful, aggressive personalities.
-- Hobgoblins gain Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.
-- Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Orc.
-- Favored Class: Fighter.
-- Level Adjustment: +1.

Using this version, the hobgoblin paragon's 1st level skill bonus would increase racial bonuses on Move Silently and Intimidate to +6 (rather than just Move Silently to +8).