Dancing Bears?

[Sepok]

There have been a lot of threads about level dips for Moon Druids to improve AC. The main ones are a 1 level dip in Barbarian or Monk to get the either CON or WIS bonuses to apply to AC when in forms. (Best of animal AC or 10+DEX mod+other stat mod) With the release of the Sword Coast Adventures Guide we have the Bladesinger Wizards. Splashing 2 levels of Wizard to get Bladesinging twice per short rest that ADDS INT mod to AC. Moon druids don't have to worry about physical stats too much since they are replaced in wildeshape...so they could just go with high INT and WIS. It doesn't slow down spell progression, but it does slow down getting higher CR forms.

- When would be the best time for this dip, after CR2 forms at 6th?
- What about a 1 lvl Monk DIP and 2 for Bladesinging? Forms are really slowed down, but AC goes up dramatically.
- Assuming an 18 WIS and 16 INT, the standard CR1 brown bear would go from AC 11 to AC 17.
- Or is this dip not worth it because it costs 2 levels and slows down gaining higher CR forms?

[PoeticDwarf]

Probably just not worth it. Monk/wizard costs you form and normal class features/spells. 1 monk and 2 wizard costs 3 levels or one CR higher form. +6AC is looking to CR also about 1 I'd say, because you miss other features it is not worth it at all.

[JellyPooga]

Wild Shape pretty much caps out at 10th level; by that point you have CR:3 Beast Forms of any calibre (no restrictions on move speeds) and Elemental Wild Shape. The Beast forms above CR:3 are nothing to shout about (Elephant at 12th, Giant Croc, Giant Shark and Triceratops at 15th and Mammoth at 18th...that's about your lot) and they certainly don't keep up with other Classes at those levels if you're relying solely on Wild Shape as your schtick.

So if you want to be the "Wild Shape Guy", Druid 10 is your sweet spot. Multiclass however you want aside from that; you'll lose out on the higher level Druid fun (i.e. spells), but you'll probably have more fun with Wild Shape. You'll probably be "under-par" compared to other Classes, but in most games this doesn't matter; unless the other players are raging optimisers, you won't even notice.

Here's a potential build for those other 10 levels;

- Monk 2/Wizard (Bladesinger) 2/Ranger (Hunter) 6

Ranger has the same MC requirements as Monk, so no worries on that front. Ranger boosts your spellcasting a little (including the ever-tasty Hunters Mark), gives you some Favoured Terrain (more for flavour than anything), Fighting Style (I'd go with Defence if you're looking for AC), Extra Attack and Hunters Prey. As you point out, Monk gives you Wis to AC, some minor Ki abilities and a little speed bump. Bladesinger gives you Int to AC and a further bump to spellcasting.

Between all that, you're likely looking at an AC in the 20ish region whilst in Wild Shape (10+Dex+Wis+Int+1 [Defence]), which isn't shabby. You can probably get that AC online at Character level 7 (Monk 1/Wizard 2/Ranger 2/Druid 2), but I wouldn't advise that as your starting progression!

By level 20, you're casting as a level 15 spellcaster (so level 8 spell slots), but you're highest spell level you can prepare will be as a 10th level caster (so only level 4 spells); you'll have to look out spells that scale well to keep up on that front.

[Malifice]

Wild Shape pretty much caps out at 10th level; by that point you have CR:3 Beast Forms of any calibre (no restrictions on move speeds) and Elemental Wild Shape. The Beast forms above CR:3 are nothing to shout about (Elephant at 12th, Giant Croc, Giant Shark and Triceratops at 15th and Mammoth at 18th...that's about your lot) and they certainly don't keep up with other Classes at those levels if you're relying solely on Wild Shape as your schtick.

So if you want to be the "Wild Shape Guy", Druid 10 is your sweet spot. Multiclass however you want aside from that; you'll lose out on the higher level Druid fun (i.e. spells), but you'll probably have more fun with Wild Shape. You'll probably be "under-par" compared to other Classes, but in most games this doesn't matter; unless the other players are raging optimisers, you won't even notice.

Here's a potential build for those other 10 levels;

- Monk 2/Wizard (Bladesinger) 2/Ranger (Hunter) 6

Ranger has the same MC requirements as Monk, so no worries on that front. Ranger boosts your spellcasting a little (including the ever-tasty Hunters Mark), gives you some Favoured Terrain (more for flavour than anything), Fighting Style (I'd go with Defence if you're looking for AC), Extra Attack and Hunters Prey. As you point out, Monk gives you Wis to AC, some minor Ki abilities and a little speed bump. Bladesinger gives you Int to AC and a further bump to spellcasting.

Between all that, you're likely looking at an AC in the 20ish region whilst in Wild Shape (10+Dex+Wis+Int+1 [Defence]), which isn't shabby. You can probably get that AC online at Character level 7 (Monk 1/Wizard 2/Ranger 2/Druid 2), but I wouldn't advise that as your starting progression!

By level 20, you're casting as a level 15 spellcaster (so level 8 spell slots), but you're highest spell level you can prepare will be as a 10th level caster (so only level 4 spells); you'll have to look out spells that scale well to keep up on that front.

Defence style requires you to be wearing armor for the +1 AC.

Paladin 2 is far better on a Moon Druid. To the point it should be mandatory on most builds. Smite gives you something else to do with those spell slots while in beast form.

AC is irrelevant on a Moon Druid. You actualy want it low (you want to be getting attacked). You're a HP sponge. Let your DM feel great attacking you so he attacks you more... from 2nd level you have a sponge of 70HP... per short rest.

From 3rd level they all have barkskin running most of the time anyway.

[JellyPooga]

Defence style requires you to be wearing armor for the +1 AC.

Oh yeah...forgot about that!


Paladin 2 is far better on a Moon Druid. To the point it should be mandatory on most builds. Smite gives you something else to do with those spell slots while in beast form.

Agreed. I'm not a fan of the flavour of it, but I can see it working, certainly.


AC is irrelevant on a Moon Druid.

Hmm, I don't know. It can be, certainly. A Barbarian/Druid literally doesn't care if he gets hit; his HP are disposable and he never gets hit for much. On the other hand, not getting hit is always preferable to getting hit; if you can jig a high AC, why not? You might sacrifice "power" compared to an optimised build, but as I mentioned, in most games it won't be noticed that much.


From 3rd level they all have barkskin running most of the time anyway.

Whilst true, AC:16 is nothing to shout about. Even at 1st level it's a fairly poor AC. It's a better offering than most (all? I can't be bothered to look it up) Wild Shapes can offer, but it's still not worth bothering with in my book. AC is a "go big, or go home" sort of deal; either get it as high above 20 as you can or just don't bother with it at all; I certainly wouldn't waste a 2nd level spell on it unless I definitely had surplus 2nd level slots and by the time you have those, AC:16 is probably about as useful as AC:10 anyway, so why bother even then?

[Malifice]

Agreed. I'm not a fan of the flavour of it, but I can see it working, certainly.

Oath of the Ancients Paladin fluffs perfectly with Druid.

Green knight/ defender of the woods etc.


Hmm, I don't know. It can be, certainly. A Barbarian/Druid literally doesn't care if he gets hit; his HP are disposable and he never gets hit for much. On the other hand, not getting hit is always preferable to getting hit; if you can jig a high AC, why not? You might sacrifice "power" compared to an optimised build, but as I mentioned, in most games it won't be noticed that much.

Moon Druids dont care if they get hit. They have the HP to soak it and heal as a bonus action anyways.

From 2nd level they sponge 70 HP per short rest (or 210 HP over the course of the 6-8 encounter AD). You WANT to be attacked (and at low level your DM will throw everything he has at you). Every attack on you is one less attack on anyone else; if your AC is too high, your DM will likely attack someone else (this is bad for a Moon Druid). Remember; theyre not real HP.

Barbarian dip is just a cheeky way of doubling this HP sponge effect.

From 3rd level, all you need to do is cast Barkskin and your AC is 16 from then on anyway. Youre much better off picking up Resilient Con (or warcaster - or better yet, both) and sticking with Druid to unlock new forms as early as possible (and swim and fly speed forms) and higher level spells.

Barkskin is hard to drop on a Druid. Most forms are high Con off the bat. Tack on proficiency in them, and warcaster and you'll rarely drop Barkskin when you get clobbered. If it does drop, in a pinch you can (bonus action) back into human from, (action to cast) and then on your next turn (bonus action) back again and multiattack.

From 10th level your AC is 17 from Earth elemental, you have resistance v non magic weapons, and a spare 150odd HP to sponge every short rest.


Whilst true, AC:16 is nothing to shout about. Even at 1st level it's a fairly poor AC.

So? You want to be hit. If your AC is too high, your DM will look elsewhere. Suck him in and remain hittable. They're not real HP remember.

Think of your animal forms as ablative armor. Your role as the Tank is to attract fire away from other PC's that hit harder than you do (Paladins, Barbarians etc).


AC:16 is probably about as useful as AC:10 anyway, so why bother even then?

Err.. no its not. AC 16 is the difference between a hit and a miss vs AC 10 30 percent of the time (until attack bonuses exceed +10 (i.e. around 20th level), and then you'll be the Onion Druid able to wildshape into an Earth elemental from every single round as a bonus action refreshing your HP.

[JellyPooga]

Oath of the Ancients Paladin fluffs perfectly with Druid.

As I say, I'm just not a fan of it. Personal preference; dunno why.


stuff about HP and Barkskin

What I was saying is that Barkskin is a waste of a spell slot. It doesn't matter that there's a chance of it dropping when you're hit; I'm not casting it in the first place.

The AC:11 to 14(-ish) you get from most animal forms is not that much lower than the AC:16 Barkskin offers and if (as you say) you don't care if you get hit, why bother expending that resource on such a marginal increase? By the time 2nd level spell slots are "throwaway" and you don't mind frittering them on the marginal stuff, AC:16 means almost nothing anyway, so again I ask; why bother with it? Barkskin is a pointless spell in my playbook.

If I want AC in Wild Shape, I'm going to be looking at Multiclassing to get it in the 20's, or I'm not going to bother with improving AC at all.

[Shaofoo]

Paladin 2 is far better on a Moon Druid. To the point it should be mandatory on most builds. Smite gives you something else to do with those spell slots while in beast form.


A couple of things

Smite says that it can only activate on a melee weapon attack. I might be wrong but I thought it was said that a melee weapon attack is one made with a manufactured weapon, not just any melee attack (since fists were taken off the weapon table for this purpose).

Also it says that you must use a paladin spell slot in order to activate a smite, which means that you can't use your Druid spell slots to fuel your Smites.

So with Paladin 2 you can't smite and even if you could you could only Smite twice per day. At least according to RAW.

[JellyPooga]

Also it says that you must use a paladin spell slot in order to activate a smite, which means that you can't use your Druid spell slots to fuel your Smites.

This was fixed in an FAQ or errata; you can use any spell slot (including Pact Magic) for Smites.

[Shaofoo]

This was fixed in an FAQ or errata; you can use any spell slot (including Pact Magic) for Smites.

Okay so there is that, but what about the melee weapon requirement. Do they say if you can use bear claws for smites? I guess if they say something like using monk's unarmed strikes for Smite purposes then you could use it for bear claws too.

[JellyPooga]

Okay so there is that, but what about the melee weapon requirement. Do they say if you can use bear claws for smites? I guess if they say something like using monk's unarmed strikes for Smite purposes then you could use it for bear claws too.

That I'm not sure about. I don't know if there's been any clarification either way. Someone else might, otherwise it's open to GM interpretation, I guess.

[Malifice]

A couple of things

Smite says that it can only activate on a melee weapon attack. I might be wrong but I thought it was said that a melee weapon attack is one made with a manufactured weapon, not just any melee attack (since fists were taken off the weapon table for this purpose).

Also it says that you must use a paladin spell slot in order to activate a smite, which means that you can't use your Druid spell slots to fuel your Smites.

So with Paladin 2 you can't smite and even if you could you could only Smite twice per day. At least according to RAW.

Both points covered by the errata. The word 'paladin' had been removed.

Download if and have a read man.

[Shaofoo]

Both points covered by the errata. The word 'paladin' had been removed.

Download if and have a read man.

I did and it says nothing about smiting through animal attacks, as I read it you can't because animal natural attacks aren't weapon attacks and aren't unarmed attacks as per RAW.

[Malifice]

I did and it says nothing about smiting through animal attacks, as I read it you can't because animal natural attacks aren't weapon attacks and aren't unarmed attacks as per RAW.

Yes. they are. It says so right on the tin:


Actions
Multiattack: The bear makes two attacks, one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite: Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft, One Target. Hit: 8 (1d8+4) piercing damage.
Claw: Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft, One Target. Hit: 11 (2d6+4) slashing damage

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1408/28/1408285461693.pdf

Bites, claws, slams etc are 'melee weapon attacks'. Paladins can smite with 'melee weapon attacks'.

It's totally legit.

[numerek]

Tunnel Fighter, Now this is a tank fighting style. Druid form into an ape and wield a polearm. Earth elementals could also probably wield weapons.

I have shown that multiclass Moon Druids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420494-Giant-Elk-Barbarian) can compare favorably with Fighters at 11th level.