What do you think would happen?

[morkendi]

If a wizard of some kind cast genesis and brings about 100 orcs to the plain. Being that he is evil, he kills the ones they do not show the traits he wants. He continues to add to the stock, but carefully monitors then for intelligence as well as strength. He does this over generations, making sure that they follow him. He educates then, he organizes them, and teaches them military tactics and magic. Any that fall within the standards are treated well. Any that do not meet the standard are removed. What do you think the results would be after 10 generations? The key is that they are educated well beyond the typical commoners much less orcs.

[Zeruel]

If this wizard as really that much time, the required educating skills and the resources necessary to mantain the comunity (remember that the demiplane cannot create life and, thus, animals on which they can feed on), it will probably create an horde of barbarian or simply naive orcs that probably had never see the Material Plane, much more extended and alive then that demiplane. They would maybe see the wizard as some kind of god, or a very powerful king. He should even be aware that if he treat them without a little respect, they could turn on him the first time they leave the demiplane. If there are any sub-chief in this comunity, the wizard should dominate them to easier the task of controlling the whole population. Is this the answer you were looking for? :smallsmile:

[Honest Tiefling]

10 generations seems pretty darn quick for any notable genetic shift to occur. Not to mention, 100 orcs is a really bad start, and with the massive culling the genetic diversity is awful. Any genetic disease that creeps in could wreck the entire experiment pretty well, especially if carriers are unaffected.

If there was enough time for change to the race, I'd say they'd wind up much like Grey Elves. Physically weak, but need to learn quickly to survive, with a bit of magical training. Just a bit more green then the elves.

[Zeruel]

10 generations seems pretty darn quick for any notable genetic shift to occur. Not to mention, 100 orcs is a really bad start, and with the massive culling the genetic diversity is awful. Any genetic disease that creeps in could wreck the entire experiment pretty well, especially if carriers are unaffected.

If there was enough time for change to the race, I'd say they'd wind up much like Grey Elves. Physically weak, but need to learn quickly to survive, with a bit of magical training. Just a bit more green then the elves.

Wow, it's even worse than I thought then... Oh, and don't forget about fights, orcs are famous for that, and they could simply decimate each other because 180 ft of space aren't enough for all of them! :smallbiggrin:

[Honest Tiefling]

Wow, it's even worse than I thought then... Oh, and don't forget about fights, orcs are famous for that, and they could simply decimate each other because 180 ft of space aren't enough for all of them! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. It'd be a bit like putting a bunch of betta fish into the same bowl. 50 males enters, 1 male lives and ruins the genetic population of this plane forever. Keep in mind, with orc society, the larger, stronger males have probably rebelled within 15 minutes of this, so that one scrawny guy who decided that cowering behind the rock was the best idea is the only dude left.

[morkendi]

Notice i said he replenished stock and educated them. 100 was the starting point. Looking more towards these generations recieve education and training far above society standards for any race. Meening every orc would have class levels. Ability to read and write and such. Wizard is trying to elevate them, not let them be a barberic hoard.

[Honest Tiefling]

Notice i said he replenished stock and educated them. 100 was the starting point. Looking more towards these generations recieve education and training far above society standards for any race. Meening every orc would have class levels. Ability to read and write and such. Wizard is trying to elevate them, not let them be a barberic hoard.

I did miss that, but how far is he replenishing them? Orcs tend to kill each other pretty frequently, so at first he's replacing more orcs then are actually there so the breeding hasn't exactly progressed much. After a few generations they might calm down due to societal pressures, but new stock is going to be an issue as it hasn't been tamed yet.

100 individuals is still a really small starting point. Disease brought in by new members could wipe them out. With genesis on the table, I think he could tack on a few hundred onto there.

[morkendi]

He would probably use charm person and monsters to bring some ogre and human into the mix, but mainly he is looking for traits like intelligence. Kind of like the pet field, establish breeders with desires trates, and keep building. Orcs supposedly reproduce fast and not a supper long age catigory. The socity would be controled, but the mage could use charms and such to push the desired results. It's not just bring them and leave, it is him having an active hand.

The background for the mage, he started as an experament himself that a mage trained. He is an orc. He now has access to 9th lvl spells, but his race is so far beneath him. He wants to execute a drastic plan to elevate his race.

[Honest Tiefling]

At that point, why bother with introducing mortal races? Wizards are known for crazy combinations for things. One of them got drunk and made an owlbear! Why not introduce some dragon into there? Then you get sorcerer bloodlines and increased intelligence (and lifespan, he'll be needing that).

Heck, you could go the planetouched route. Not all planetouched are made from 'friendly contact'. if you know what I mean. Just keep exposing them from magic from whatever lawful plane you desire (fiendish ones are a bad idea overall, celestial ones might start producing people who object to further projects and methods. Lawfully inclined plane touched are more likely to obey and not rebel).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Right, so this is a radical eugenetics program, on a scale we have no actual experience with. Humans have domesticated certain species - the domesticated silver fox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox) is the one I want to bring up - but that wasn't a humanoid-level intelligent species to begin with (as it's usually reckoned, anyway). However, you might take that as indication that significant change can be achieved within some twenty generations.

In the case of these orcs, I'd be very wary of their comfort zone. If they ever leave the demiplane, they'll be confused by the sky overhead, and potentially very frightened.

[Zeruel]

Notice i said he replenished stock and educated them. 100 was the starting point. Looking more towards these generations recieve education and training far above society standards for any race. Meening every orc would have class levels. Ability to read and write and such. Wizard is trying to elevate them, not let them be a barberic hoard.

Sorry, I too missed that, but then how about taking baby orcs, or better, half-orcs (better for the wizard's purposes), and only then educating them? This way they don't even need to be culturally tamed, just characterially (they still have a wild soul, making them chaotic most time), and after that the smartest may became good wizards, while the others could still be wonderful sorcerers and warlocks.


After a few generations they might calm down due to societal pressures, but new stock is going to be an issue as it hasn't been tamed yet.


This could be avoided by founding a cabala of wizards, each of which could control his own comunity, and thus reducing the amount of time needed to have, say, 1000 orcs ready to conquer the world. Just like when Naruto Shadow Clones himself to faster learn the Rasenshuriken :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to say, if you can't control them all at once, it would take only 40 1°-2° level wizards to take down their 20th level master, if they ever wish to rebel (most arcane casters grow eager of power as thier knowledge does, let alone evil ones, which they probably are. They would be just like Sith XD ).

[Honest Tiefling]

This could be avoided by founding a cabala of wizards, each of which could control his own comunity, and thus reducing the amount of time needed to have, say, 1000 orcs ready to conquer the world. Just like when Naruto Shadow Clones himself to faster learn the Rasenshuriken :smallbiggrin:

I am an old person who does not watch your animes. But I like this idea, the problem is that the wizards might grow too powerful and teleport themselves away and then it's like when the female in heat runs around the neighborhood and gets knocked up by who knows what.

There's also the idea of finding a plane where orcs are slaves. Pretamed, and if you can convince a cleric or duplicate spells maybe there's ways to get around the damage to the body. Else find a society where they are gladiators or warriors so they are kept in good physical condition. Younger ones who are just old enough to remember their treatment but not deliberated too much by their treatment are definitely an option. They'd also be quite loyal, given that you've...Well, maybe they won't be loyal because they're still slaves but eh, a few might appreciate the hard work, you ingrates. Convincing them to breed with the correct orc will be the problem.

[morkendi]

The reason behind this. In real life, my wife had cancer, I missed quite a bit of time playing. Through whatever group events, the player characters have progressed to a point almost 500 years passed when I last played. The DM how said that I can continue to play my current character as he had an amulet of eternal youth. He is A 17th level diviner. I need to progress him to the current time line, but I'm not allowed to gain experience. Being that the humans and such do not accept him because he is an orc, and he is far beyond his own race, I am trying to come up with this idea to cover the 500 year gap without being present on the prime plane to influence anything. If he went forward with this plan over 500 years, I am wondering what a logical result would be.

[Honest Tiefling]

I refuse to believe that a wizard with that much magic would not eventually produce four-limbed, winged orcs made out of fire that also breathe it and have blindsight. You have 500 years. Mixing ogres in is for chumps. You're a wizard, you can do much better then that.

[Zeruel]

The problem is that the wizards might grow too powerful and teleport themselves away.

What about a spell on the lines of Mark of Justice?


And then it's like when the female in heat runs around the neighborhood and gets knocked up by who knows what.

Ahahah, that would be terribly hilarious! :smallbiggrin:


There's also the idea of finding a plane where orcs are slaves. Pretamed, and if you can convince a cleric or duplicate spells maybe there's ways to get around the damage to the body. Else find a society where they are gladiators or warriors so they are kept in good physical condition. Younger ones who are just old enough to remember their treatment but not deliberated too much by their treatment are definitely an option. They'd also be quite loyal, given that you've...Well, maybe they won't be loyal because they're still slaves but eh, a few might appreciate the hard work, you ingrates. Convincing them to breed with the correct orc will be the problem.

I think that with a promise of power and a pact of protection they could just offer their children to the wizard, who could even tell them that they will became the greatest of their kind when they grow up. this should at least make their parents proud.


The reason behind this. In real life, my wife had cancer, I missed quite a bit of time playing. Through whatever group events, the player characters have progressed to a point almost 500 years passed when I last played. The DM how said that I can continue to play my current character as he had an amulet of eternal youth. He is A 17th level diviner. I need to progress him to the current time line, but I'm not allowed to gain experience. Being that the humans and such do not accept him because he is an orc, and he is far beyond his own race, I am trying to come up with this idea to cover the 500 year gap without being present on the prime plane to influence anything. If he went forward with this plan over 500 years, I am wondering what a logical result would be.

Sorry for you, man, really sorry. But yet, you have a comprehensive DM, not that common in my opinion...

[OldTrees1]

If a wizard of some kind cast genesis and brings about 100 orcs to the plain. Being that he is evil, he kills the ones they do not show the traits he wants. He continues to add to the stock, but carefully monitors then for intelligence as well as strength. He does this over generations, making sure that they follow him. He educates then, he organizes them, and teaches them military tactics and magic. Any that fall within the standards are treated well. Any that do not meet the standard are removed. What do you think the results would be after 10 generations? The key is that they are educated well beyond the typical commoners much less orcs.

Well, education is learned(not a heritable trait) and 10 generations is nothing on a genetic scale(not to mention the introduction of fresh orcs would dilute any start of a genetic shift). So stat changes are non existent. This also means disposition to having more levels is unlikely to occur.

Every single one is being educated(probably effecting their class choices and they select the Education feat).

After 10 generations the Wizard gets little to no resistance in teaching the stock Orc to have the Education feat and a level of a "learning" class like Rogue/Expert/Factotum.

[LordOfCain]

Genesis : New Demiplane
Demiplanes can have their own time modifiers.
Make time go 100 times as fast so you can have infinite generations of orcs.

[Coidzor]

Something like Gray Orcs turned up to 11 might be the result.

I guess if their ability to survive and breed depends upon their ability to get along, it might select for higher charisma scores, too.

Or you might just end up with slightly bigger, bulkier humans with pointier ears and teeth.

Apparently this is what happened over several generations and with some divine intervention. The Ondontis. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ondonti)

Thayan Orcs and the Inspired of Riedra from Eberron are also potential examples of controlled breeding programs.

[morkendi]

I probably will play with time a little. My current exp is 148,000, so I can only cast it twice before I de-level to a point I can not cast it witch nets a 240 foot radius. Option is to buy a few scrolls, however this limits the population by size of available space. Once breeders are established by keeping only the best of the best, I could return to prime in a remote area and direct the course of the colony there. If I retrain a feat for the landlord feat, I could start an army/city there.

This is an evil campaign. My mage is lawful evil, and very calculating. He has made 17 lvls of diviner as I never took a prestige class. Next level however will be arch-mage. Prohibited school is evocation. He has a 28 int after tomes, levels, etc. The intelligence and class should help. Just need to get everything written before next weekend.

He feels that he will lead his people to greatness. He will build a structured people who are powerful well beyond the common orc. The chaos must be removed and replaced with a structured existence.

[daremetoidareyo]

Selected breeding can change dog breeds in a little over 10 generations or so. (https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/) But it gets ugly real fast.

Problem is that if you are breeding for intelligence, you need to challenge these orcs intellectually and cull the breeders who underperform. The problem is that you're measures of "intelligence" may not be sufficient (may be counterbalanced by a symmetrical lack of wisdom)... Intelligence is a multifaceted trait, and we have yet to figure out how to measure it in real terms. Performance on tests can only test so far.

[morkendi]

Under-performers will be culled

[daremetoidareyo]

Under-performers will be culled

The thing is, the more you "cull" the more you constrain the elastic limit of the genome. It is like pulling letters from the alphabet: Eventually, you will no longer have access to some words.


You are then limited by the length between generations, because you are hoping for mutations alone to develop greater proficiency at the highest limit of an organisms barebones genetic capacity to do so.

You will have to employ some means of aging the orcs really fast (do ghosts still do that in 3.5?). Then you can age the fetus as soon as conception happens: although this kills your females... Apply your intelligence tests that you derived... and dominate them into reproducing again...

[OldTrees1]

Selected breeding can change dog breeds in a little over 10 generations or so. (https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/) But it gets ugly real fast.

Problem is that if you are breeding for intelligence, you need to challenge these orcs intellectually and cull the breeders who underperform. The problem is that you're measures of "intelligence" may not be sufficient (may be counterbalanced by a symmetrical lack of wisdom)... Intelligence is a multifaceted trait, and we have yet to figure out how to measure it in real terms. Performance on tests can only test so far.

As you pointed out, selective breeding can, under the right conditions, be relatively fast. However, as you also pointed out, that required pure breeding(no new "stock") and it worked on relatively easily bred traits(increasing the expression of a existing protein/hormone).

So something like dexterity(conceptually understood while not genetically isolated) would have less progress in 10 generations of culling/inbreeding than dog breed exaggeration. Something like intelligence(not well understood conceptually) would have even less progress, especially with the dilution from new stock(even if selected for intelligence since it would be different mutations).

Net result: No real noticeable genetic change in a mere 10 generations.

[Inevitability]

Orcs actually have one pretty big advantage above most other races; they breed quickly. Your average orc is probably fully grown and fertile at age 12, and orcs typically don't live past 40. In other words, you should be able to breed close to 40 generations of orcs in those five centuries (more if you add Fast Time cheese).

I'd create eternally resetting traps of Create Food and Create Water, to ensure no orcs die of starvation.

Also, make sure to re-cast Genesis every now and then, to ensure the demiplane's growth.

Also, why not throw some additional genes in there? Lycanthropy, for one, is an extremely effective way to quickly beef up some mooks. The moment it becomes inherited, it's an even bigger boost in power. Having a minotaur get frisky with your orcs can also greatly enhance their strength.


Above all, make sure to create a religion with you as main deity, who 'saved' them from a world that hated them, brought them to this paradise to select the 'chosen ones' and will one day return them to the material world. Worst case, it'll get you some orc clerics (having gotten their power from worshipping the concept of you). Best case, you'll ascend to demigodhood.

[atemu1234]

10 generations seems pretty darn quick for any notable genetic shift to occur. Not to mention, 100 orcs is a really bad start, and with the massive culling the genetic diversity is awful. Any genetic disease that creeps in could wreck the entire experiment pretty well, especially if carriers are unaffected.

If there was enough time for change to the race, I'd say they'd wind up much like Grey Elves. Physically weak, but need to learn quickly to survive, with a bit of magical training. Just a bit more green then the elves.

Biochem major here, he'll need a minimum of 200 genetically distinct members of a group to create a stable genetic community.

Also, they'll need to be carefully culled. It'll also take much longer than 10 generations to make the alterations necessary, it could take thousands of years.

My recommendation? Mind Rape the original members. They'll become completely subservient and worship you as a deity. They will teach their offspring to do the same, and start a religion based around culling the unintelligent as you would the weak for your survival.

Have an item of continuous Genesis at the center of the plane, so it continues to expand for millenia. Give it the fast time (100,000 years to one day) so that in a few weeks you'll have a barren wasteland or an ingenious species.

Problem being, you'd need to also make sure all of them are under your control still. Best recommendation, make another item of continuous Mind Rape and have it affect everyone somehow.

So, the usual forum recommendation - Genesis and Mind Rape.

[morkendi]

My main focus I want to put out toward the DM. After 500 years, I want the typical orc way of life to be changed for my group which I hope to turn into a kingdom. I don't expect everyone to be wizards, though a portion would be acceptable. I do however want to build a sizable force that works together which is something my character realizes is a major problem with typical orcs. I want every class to be acceptable with all citizens having class levels of some sort. I have read in books that if orcs could band together without the typical infighting, the would be a major force to be reckoned with. The idea of using genesis is to get a kick-start as I believe that once the typical world saw evil orcs banding together to better themselves, they may try to stop it. I would have to work out percentages with dm, but some would be fighters, some mages, some clerics etc. Any orc that doesn't add to the community is simply removed barring those that grow old, or injured in service as those will be rewarded with their every need cared for by the community. As a 17th lvl diviner, I can pretty well know who will cause trouble, and who to watch. I can also use compulsions to direct certain aspects and such. Gone would be the typical orc hoard, in its place would be a well organized army and community that most kingdoms would think twice about facing once they realized what we really were. These orc will not live in caves, they will live in housing constructed from walls of stone. They will have water and food, none will starve as the community will be provided for. Crime will be nearly eliminated as magic will be used to get the true story for any charges. The at fault party will be publicly executed, at which point the body will be raised to do menial work. The raised dead will also be fodder for the army. At some point, this will become the norm for the population as nothing will be hidden.

I guess the closest thing I can compare to is Dr. Doom from the comics. He rules his country, and his people love him. I was trying to get a better grasp on how far this could evolve in a 500 year gap.

[Theodred theOld]

I have no background whatsoever in genetics but I do know that "intelligent" orcs were called the Scro in the Spelljammer days. And I believe their 3.X counterparts are called Orogs. The idea was that there had been a schism between the more thoughtful and intelligent scro and the brutal, dumber land-based orcs. I guess what I'm saying is that barring metaphysics and genetic debate , you can at least offer a precedent.

[OldTrees1]

My main focus I want to put out toward the DM. After 500 years, I want the typical orc way of life to be changed for my group which I hope to turn into a kingdom

-snip-

I guess the closest thing I can compare to is Dr. Doom from the comics. He rules his country, and his people love him. I was trying to get a better grasp on how far this could evolve in a 500 year gap.

Within 10 generations the survivors would learn that you are invincible, unstoppable, all knowing, and omnipresent. So you would have the power to dictate how the orcs live, however the orc stock themselves would not change much(beyond their surrendering to you dictating their lives).

So, like Dr. Doom given mind control but not like Dr. Doom given genetic engineering or synthetic biology.

[MyrPsychologist]

You would end up with a culture of orcs that is more intelligent than others but is still physically strong.

This sort of pattern is just going to change the culture of the orcs and not the actual genetics. Because humans are a mixture of both nature AND nurture only changing the nurture won't completely change the species. It will just change the culture to one that is more in line with the values that said wizard wants to bring out.

I like to imagine a college campus frat house during a night of drinking. Lots of educated people with very short tempers and a history of violence.

[SwordChucks]

I don't think that two castings of genesis will be enough for your goal. That's barely enough room for the waste from 10 generations let alone housing and training.

To shortcut the selection process you can use diviniations to find out which pairing of orcs would best lead to your goal and which ones to take in the first place.

As for initial population, the 50/500 rule was the old gauge of a population's required initial size. 50 individuals for short-term survival and 500 for long-term. While that rule is contested it might work for orcs due to their apparent resistance to the negative effects of inbreeding.

[morkendi]

Genisis is just to do the initial start, move back to prime or shadow plane. As a 17lvl wizard, i am pretty sure i could protect them pretty well.

[Yahzi]

240 foot radius.
As others have said, the traits you are looking for are only weakly correlated with genetics, and the timescale/population you are dealing with is insignificant for evolution.

Killing the ones who disappoint you will produce soldiers without initiative. If you did have time for a genetic effect all you would be selecting for is obedience. Might as well make robots.

Changing the culture is easier. Opening an academy, or training ground, where orcs can volunteer themselves or their young because you will turn them into the baddest badasses that ever bad, can separate out the best and help them reach their full potential. You could probably justify turning 1% of your population into leveled, elite array soldiers, who will owe their status to you and hence be reasonably loyal.

But 500 years in a 240 space is only going to get you the free trait: Insane.


He will build a structured people who are powerful well beyond the common orc. The chaos must be removed and replaced with a structured existence.
This is D&D. Owlbears are a thing. As others have said, the traditional approach is to literally breed better orcs, like with wings or extra arms or fire-breath. That whole bit about "removing the chaos" is the sort of thing a D&D wizard would take literally. Rip out their hearts and replace them with magic power-stones. That sort of thing.

But evolution doesn't take you where you want to go.

[PraxisVetli]

If a wizard of some kind cast genesis and brings about 100 orcs to the plain. Being that he is evil, he kills the ones they do not show the traits he wants. He continues to add to the stock, but carefully monitors then for intelligence as well as strength. He does this over generations, making sure that they follow him. He educates then, he organizes them, and teaches them military tactics and magic. Any that fall within the standards are treated well. Any that do not meet the standard are removed. What do you think the results would be after 10 generations? The key is that they are educated well beyond the typical commoners much less orcs.

I think they're called hobgoblins brah.

[Stegyre]

I'm starting to understand how owlbears came about.

[atemu1234]

But evolution doesn't take you where you want to go.

True, but selective breeding does. Biologists understanding the difference between natural selection and selective breeding collectively laugh in the distance

It's entirely possible to breed a smarter species - one with more ingenuity, for example. We've bred dogs smarter than their wolf forebears, after all. Granted, it's taken us our entire history as a species to do it, but it can happen.

Domestic animals are almost universally more intelligent than their natural counterparts. But domestication takes hundreds of years to be a complete process - we've barely scratched the surface. There are people trying to, no doubt - a russian couple has been breeding friendlier foxes for a fair bit now, but it's still relatively new.

I see magic here being akin to genetic engineering IRL. Theoretically, we can alter a creature and make it smarter, and have it breed true.

As a DM, I'd allow a player to do this - because they aren't in control of the race, I'd homebrew it and set a reasonable LA on it.

[NorthernPhoenix]

This seems like a really convoluted way to go about achieving what could be done with 100% accuracy with Origin of the Species, which would allow you to create any sort of species (say, super intelligent innately magical Orcs) that breed true.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm starting to understand how owlbears came about.

Pfft. From a lazy wizard who couldn't figure out how to make it able to be ridden, venomous, flying or shoot lasers from its eyes. Some people just have no ambition or style.