How do epic spells work?

[ZhanStrider]

What do epic spell descriptions mean by "seed" and why do I need a spell craft DC ect ect.?

[SaintRidley]

Read and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#whatAreEpicSpells) be enlightened. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)

[5ColouredWalker]

The links should be fine.

But to answer the tittle question, they don't... Or very badly.

[Jack_Simth]

The links should be fine.

But to answer the tittle question, they don't... Or very badly.

Or "Stupidly well", depending on your critera.

[ZhanStrider]

Or "Stupidly well", depending on your critera.

Explain? Also, do epic spells take up a "10th" level spell slot?

[atemu1234]

Explain? Also, do epic spells take up a "10th" level spell slot?

No. They do not take spell slots.

[AvatarVecna]

Explain?

You are capable of Chain-Gating Solars via 9th level spells (Gate in a Solar, who Gates in another Solar, who Gates in...so on and so on to infinite); this is possible because Solars cast as clerics of really high level and can cast Gate. Once you've got your army of NI Solars, you can craft an epic ritual spell that uses the assistance of all those solars; NI Solars means the Spellcraft DC (and thus, the GP/XP/Time cost to you) is decreased by NI to 0, allowing you to cast any spell with a pre-mitigation cost of less than NI immediately for free.

And with what epic seeds are capable of doing, this means that there's at least one completely RAW method of accomplishing literally anything using epic spells.

[AmberVael]

What do epic spell descriptions mean by "seed" and why do I need a spell craft DC ect ect.?

Rather than publishing a bunch of epic spells, the epic level handbook introduced epic spell seeds- basic abilities that you can modify to create your own spells. These basic abilities are called seeds, and by manipulating them you can create epic spells.

Unlike normal spells, you need to make a spellcraft check in order to cast an epic spell.

You can cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your Knowledge (Arcana) ranks divided by 10, rounded down (Or your choice of Religion or Nature if you're a divine spell caster).


Now that you know these rules, promptly dump them into a trashcan and never use them, because the epic spell system is terrible and you're better off never touching it.

[atemu1234]

I allow it because I'm willing to use an extreme amount of oversight. I completely understand scrapping it.

[AmberVael]

I allow it because I'm willing to use an extreme amount of oversight. I completely understand scrapping it.

The system is so bad I find it to be a detriment instead of an aid. If I want epic spells, I find it easier and better to design them from the ground up without the "assistance" of epic spell seeds.

[Starbuck_II]

What do epic spell descriptions mean by "seed" and why do I need a spell craft DC ect ect.?

a. Spells are decided into Seeds. Think Schools of magic, but magnified.
They determine a vast number of things like limitations.


b. Spellcrafting the DC: You have to research the DC to even get the spell. This is called developing it.
1) Need money
2) Need time
3) Need to XP
4) Determine factors like Mitagation (very important to cast)


Example:
We will use a easy official Epic spell Mummy Dust. The DC is a low DC 35.
Remember, we are epic. We have a minimum 24 ranks in Spellcraft. Assuming +10 Int bonus (probsably more like 36Int so +13) is easy.
We need a 1 to cast this thing. Seriously, one of the easiest to craft (we can take 10, technically a 1).

We could remove both mitigating factors and still cast it.

Not greatest effect though (they are only 18 HD mummies)


Anyway, back to the spell, It cost 315,000 gp; 7 days; 12,600 XP to learn this spell.
Each time you attempt to cast it, we need to roll a 1 (we can't actually fail :smalltongue: )
Honestly, why did the caster even put those mitigating factors in? Saves money and time. Either that or they are Bards who got epic spells (one of the epic fests grants a +1 spell slot level, if you make it to 9th level spells you can qualify for Epic casting, thereby Bards can get Epic spells by like level 30 or something).



How do you cast it?
Need Epic Casting feat to even learn them. So you have that I assume. I'll assume arcane caster: If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. Think of the feat as your 10th level spell slot (but isn't considered one in a way).

So we know 2 max by Level 21.

[ZhanStrider]

Okay. So what I'm hearing is "epic spells are stupid!" Which is okay, because I'm only level 10. I just wondered

[Starbuck_II]

Okay. So what I'm hearing is "epic spells are stupid!" Which is okay, because I'm only level 10. I just wondered

The idea was fine.
The mechanics are the problem. Like the Truenamer!

[qube]

You are capable of Chain-Gating Solars via 9th level spellsyou're also able to summoning yourself (if you die/the spell ends, you get teleported back without wounds/spells exhaused/ ...)

[Rubik]

you're also able to summoning yourself (if you die/the spell ends, you get teleported back without wounds/spells exhausted/ ...)You've already got that pre-epic with Astral Projection, available as soon as you can Planar Bind a nightmare.

[Milo v3]

The best way I've seen to handle epic spells is simply keep giving slots for epic casters to use at their normal progression, giving them level 10+ spells slots. But only allowing them to used for casting metamagic'd versions of normal spells.

[Jack_Simth]

You are capable of Chain-Gating Solars via 9th level spells (Gate in a Solar, who Gates in another Solar, who Gates in...so on and so on to infinite); this is possible because Solars cast as clerics of really high level and can cast Gate. Once you've got your army of NI Solars, you can craft an epic ritual spell that uses the assistance of all those solars; NI Solars means the Spellcraft DC (and thus, the GP/XP/Time cost to you) is decreased by NI to 0, allowing you to cast any spell with a pre-mitigation cost of less than NI immediately for free.

And with what epic seeds are capable of doing, this means that there's at least one completely RAW method of accomplishing literally anything using epic spells.
You can also do it with just Epic spells, no need to chain-gate; it just takes longer (Permanent Summons of spellcasting critters over & over to the same effect, mitigating the initial castings by way of extra time rather than spell slots).

[Gün]

Or with Ice Assassins of yourself (or other people)

Possibilities are endless.

[AvatarVecna]

You can also do it with just Epic spells, no need to chain-gate; it just takes longer (Permanent Summons of spellcasting critters over & over to the same effect, mitigating the initial castings by way of extra time rather than spell slots).

While I'm not sure if that runs into the "epic spells known" limit (partially because I'm not sure if the limit I'm thinking of is "epic spells known" or "epic spells per day), the fact remains that the existence of slightly more efficient paths to literally infinite power does not change the fact that there are any paths to literally infinite power, which is what makes Epic Spellcasting so hilariously broken.

[Eisfalken]

While we're on the subject, I had an interesting question regarding epic spells. I considered them an avenue to reverse aging by using Seed: Transform, with a range of Personal, but was curious what the consensus would be. Since it is essentially duplicating the spell reincarnate, only with a fixed outcome (i.e. you always become a young adult of your race), it seemed like there was no real alteration to the Spellcraft DC, and it would work since it is using epic magic to forcibly, actually change your age category, rather than just adding years to it (like Seed: Fortify does).

Does anyone see any real impediment to this theory? I know a contingent reincarnation, miracle, or wish might be more suitable, but I was just toying with the notion that one motivation for wizards to get to epic spellcasting is to buy more time to become more powerful so they can reverse their aging process. It's more of a... philosophical question regarding the rules, I guess.

[Urpriest]

While we're on the subject, I had an interesting question regarding epic spells. I considered them an avenue to reverse aging by using Seed: Transform, with a range of Personal, but was curious what the consensus would be. Since it is essentially duplicating the spell reincarnate, only with a fixed outcome (i.e. you always become a young adult of your race), it seemed like there was no real alteration to the Spellcraft DC, and it would work since it is using epic magic to forcibly, actually change your age category, rather than just adding years to it (like Seed: Fortify does).

Does anyone see any real impediment to this theory? I know a contingent reincarnation, miracle, or wish might be more suitable, but I was just toying with the notion that one motivation for wizards to get to epic spellcasting is to buy more time to become more powerful so they can reverse their aging process. It's more of a... philosophical question regarding the rules, I guess.

I think that would depend pretty heavily on whether you allow Reincarnate to reset your maximum age. If you do, then yeah, this sounds like a plausible use of the seed. Remember that if you're actually aiming for "yourself when younger" specifically, there's a +25 to the DC for being a specific individual, and you're still stuck with a Permanent duration, so the effect can be dispelled.

[Rubik]

While we're on the subject, I had an interesting question regarding epic spells. I considered them an avenue to reverse aging by using Seed: Transform, with a range of Personal, but was curious what the consensus would be. Since it is essentially duplicating the spell reincarnate, only with a fixed outcome (i.e. you always become a young adult of your race), it seemed like there was no real alteration to the Spellcraft DC, and it would work since it is using epic magic to forcibly, actually change your age category, rather than just adding years to it (like Seed: Fortify does).

Does anyone see any real impediment to this theory? I know a contingent reincarnation, miracle, or wish might be more suitable, but I was just toying with the notion that one motivation for wizards to get to epic spellcasting is to buy more time to become more powerful so they can reverse their aging process. It's more of a... philosophical question regarding the rules, I guess.Assuming no inherent templates, PAO shenanigans can do this, so it's not really as big a deal as all that.

It's when templates come in that you start having issues.

[Jack_Simth]

While I'm not sure if that runs into the "epic spells known" limit (partially because I'm not sure if the limit I'm thinking of is "epic spells known" or "epic spells per day), the fact remains that the existence of slightly more efficient paths to literally infinite power does not change the fact that there are any paths to literally infinite power, which is what makes Epic Spellcasting so hilariously broken.
It is "per day" rather than "known", but the main reason for pointing it out is because when you start with Item A that is obviously hilariously broken and use that to break Item B, you're not really demonstrating that Item B is broken in and of itself. I mean, Solars can cast Create Water! You could flood the world entirely by Chain Gating in Solars and having them all cast Create Water! That'll kill everything that needs to breath air and can't fly or swim! In the whole plane! Ergo, Create Water is Broken!!!!

No. Create Water is not broken.

When, however, you can show that Item B is broken without the need for additional ingredients? That's another matter. You can get some 220 in mitigation just off of spending extra time.
A Lillend is a CR 7 outsider that casts as a Bard-6 (2nd level spell slots). Per the Summon seed, summoning one of those is DC 24. Make it Permanent, and that becomes DC 120. Time can mitigate that. +10 Minutes brings it down to DC 100. +50 Days brings it down to DC 0 (no time to research, no GP cost, no XP cost). Each one can donate a 2nd level spell slot to later castings, so on average each additional Lillend removes 1.5 days from the time. Once you've got 34 lillends each donating 2nd level spell slots, that 20 minute casting time + the spell slots is all that's needed, and you can cast the spell multiple times in a day. Once you have 40 Lillends, you can skip the 20 minute casting time. For every 40 lillends you have, you can increase the number of lillends you get with each casting by 1. This is exponential growth, and gets very silly very fast.

With enough time, therefore, your basic Epic caster can eventually cast anything that can be done via Epic spells... which is pretty much anything.


Or with Ice Assassins of yourself (or other people)

Possibilities are endless.

Yes, but again, if you need high powered item A to break item B, that doesn't necessarily say that item B is the thing that is broken.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if epic spells would work better in E6, where the lower bounds are meaningful but effectively locked.

[Starbuck_II]

I wonder if epic spells would work better in E6, where the lower bounds are meaningful but effectively locked.

Yes, actually.

Recreating a 4th to 9th level spell is way more inline with what you can do with Epic spells (assuming 9th level spells can do closer to Wish's power than Evocation 9th level stuff or Polar Ray).
Well, E8 fits with Epic Magic a Capstone feat, but it can work with E6.

We might have to redo the Crafting DC amounts to make them more sane. Especially the skill ranks.
Epic Casting grants 1 slot per 4 ranks in E6 (per 3 ranks in P6) since you get 2 in normal 21st level game.

But yeah, having to have multiple casters to ritually cast most spells is way more inline with fantasy stories about ultimate spells.

We can replicate Hell Ball: Energy Seed now deals 6d6 of just 10d6 (again you an increase damage by +1d6 by adding 2 spellcraft DC).

Minimum DC of Seeds need to be 1/2 or minus 10. Not sure best formula. So Energy Seed is now either way DC 9. This is fine as research cost/casting time are terrible without increase DC.

Research cost is now 100 gp x final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed
Developing: an epic spell takes one day for each 1,000 gp in resources required to develop the spell, rounded up to whole days.
XP Cost: To develop an epic spell, a character must spend 1/10 of its resource price in experience points.

Adding Seed DCs: When two or more epic seeds are combined in an epic spell, their base Spellcraft DCs are added together. Both contribute toward the spell’s final Spellcraft DC.

Hellball e6: DC 9 x4 =DC 36, but Factors: double base area (+6 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factors: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC), burn 200 XP (-2 DC).
So final DC is DC 50. Not sure if refined points well yet though
Development: 5000 gp (seem reasonable: Check)
Time: 5 days, seems fine: check.
XP: 500 XP (seems not too bad)

Can an e6 character cast a DC 50? Yeah, but without a ritual (additional participants) it would take a lot of focus on skill items.