unearthed arcana light dark underdark is up [Archive]

zylodrizzt

2015-11-02, 09:43 AM

Figured I forgot something. First thing I just found as a possibly is tunnel fighter vengeance paladin lvl 7 pole arm master maybe mobile n sentenel I think this would allow you activate tunnel fighter and anything gets too close you smack with your weapon and walk away without reprisal or being followed unless you wanted to be. The close quarters seems like a more focused form of crossbow expert (I think) that basically allows you to fire in melee and ignore cover combine with eldritch blast and you could be knocking anyone who gets too close to you back no penalty and if you combine with the above then I think you could possibly hold back a tide of enemies relying on you cha only (course you might have to grab another multi class, why not fighter?)

woodlandkammao

2015-11-02, 09:48 AM

Hey look, they made a ranger that manages to suck more! Mechanically, it's basically you get to make the extra attack your beast companion would make. Except more situational.

Rfkannen

2015-11-02, 09:49 AM

I realy like it! The quiirk and flaw tables are awesome and I wish they existed for all of the phb options as well. Bolth of the fighting styles open up some cool options, I especialy could see myself useing the close ranged bow one.The ranger path is interesting, kind of like a rogue/ranger hybrid in some ways. The undying light slightlyy confuses me though, how do you make a pact with a plane? Are you just walking up to a plane of existance and saying "Hi, I would like to make a pact with you, please sign here"? I do like the flavor other than that though. And haveing a warlock that is inatly positive is pretty awesome, you even get to heal! Get a blade pact with this guy and you are a cool paladin sorta character, burning light, lay on hands, hard to kill. Pretty cool. Feeels weird that most of the abilities are suited to melee but they get sacred flame.

I especialy love that sorcerer bloodline, the shadow wolf thing could be fun, and the rest of it is cool as well, i like the shadow jumping thing, feels like shadowmonk.

WickerNipple

2015-11-02, 09:49 AM

That Warlock is ridiculously good.

Kryx

2015-11-02, 09:50 AM

Close Quarters Shooter is just Sharpshooter's main benefit without the feat cost. Great for hand crossbow builds. Personally I like their cover rules and find it a shame that they've created ways to entirely ignore them as those cover rules are what makes melee a better choice for pure damage while ranged is more reliably able to target enemies.
Tunnel Fighter allowing lots of OAs breaks the normal OA limit. I find it to be rather annoying that this option is only available to those who take this fighting style.

Deep Stalker is quite interesting - it seems like some of these things should've been part of the core Ranger.
Strength of the Grave feels like 4e's living near the edge of death optimization all over again. At least it's on a caster instead of a race.
Undying Light seems pretty cool, though all other warlock patrons allow 2 spell choices per level - I'd rather see that to be consistent.

Coyote81

2015-11-02, 10:10 AM

Quick first impressions
Fighting Styles:
- Close Quarters Shooter is great, probably not really over the top but it's a nice idea, maybe this should be limited to ranged weapons without reload trait.
- Tunnel Fighter instantly made me think of polearm master and just how over the top and instantly gamebreaking this is. I find that the 1 reaction per turn = one attack of opportunity a very important balancing point for 5E, this shouldn't be allowed in it's current form.

Ranger: Overall seems rather balanced nad different enough from the existing archtypes to be a good option.

Sorcerer: I really like this Origin, it very interesting and seems like a good starting spot for a lot of darker anti-heros. However one of the 1st level abilities seems too good, Strength of the Grave seems like it should have a cost or something else limiting how many times you can use it. Sense the theme of this character is to use Sorcery points for other things, I feel like strength of the grave should use Sorcery points a well.

Warlock: Again another archtype I find rather interesting but a little too good due to a starting level ability. No other archtype get to add their trait to a type of spell until at least level 6 (disregarding eldritch blast itself), allowing it this low actually make for silly mutliclassing as well. Undying Light Warlock3 Dragonbloodline Sorcerer 6 gets 2x Charisma bonus to fire spells? Just silly.

Overall interesting ideas, need some balacing rule wise on some of them, but I like the directions they are headed.

DanyBallon

2015-11-02, 10:22 AM

Tunnel fighter fluff suggest fighting in closed spaces but there's no mechanics to support that. I'd say that it should apply only when fighting in a doorway or when the when the room or corridor is not wider than 20ft. What do you think? Is it too limitative?

SharkForce

2015-11-02, 10:23 AM

oh hey look, another stacking bonus to ranged attack.

the benefits of splashing a rogue are getting ever larger. 2 fighter and 2 ranger levels (for +3 to hit and ignore cover within 30 feet) is going to really add a lot of value to sneak attack.

glad to see they're adding some value to fighting styles. kinda wish the value they added wasn't stacking bonuses to hit. i actually approve of unlimited opportunity attacks (which is not the same thing as unlimited reaction attacks). it means that a warrior can actually threaten to do something to an enemy that decides to completely ignore them more often than once per round. frankly, this has been necessary for a long time. it means that tanky fighters will *actually* be able to leverage their AC into a party resource to some extent now, instead of having it just mean that enemies walk right past, kill the glass cannons, and come back later once the fighter is alone.

(but seriously, the builds i remember seeing where the goal was basically to get as many fighting styles as possible are starting to look pretty danged good).

i don't really see anything particularly problematic with the ranger archetype. looks reasonably solid to me. you get a nice burst in the first round, advantage on one attack per round (probably) thereafter, and reroll a miss once per round. pretty good DPR boost really, and i suspect makes the ranger a lot more competitive in that department.

edit: hit enter before i meant too. shadow sorcerer looks pretty interesting, and gives a new way to see in magical darkness (the paladin with a sorcerer splash just got a bit more scary). i do wish the shadow hound HP or defenses scaled a bit better. still, it appears to have no limits (you can summon one every round) and is actually quite strong. range appears to be pretty much line of sight/effect, and the hound can go through barriers, so certainly good at intimidating the back lines, and is pretty much better at reducing saves than heighten in every way.

i still think base sorcerer's chassis needs some help, but it isn't this archetype's fault.

edit edit: and finally, a warlock patron that provides some options for people who want a good (well, more or less) patron. never made sense to me that no good non-deity beings would be trying to empower mortal servants. i do kinda wish it had a clause that necrotic damage warlock spells you cast are changed to radiant though.

Belac93

2015-11-02, 10:25 AM

Shadowcasters are back. I like this.

weaseldust

2015-11-02, 10:30 AM

Hey look, they made a ranger that manages to suck more! Mechanically, it's basically you get to make the extra attack your beast companion would make. Except more situational.

I think you have to bear in mind that they get an extra attack on the first turn anyway, and a lot of their attacks will be made with advantage because they will be hiding a lot (for comparison, a wolf companion will also typically have advantage on attacks, and will sometimes give you advantage by knocking enemies prone, but that doesn't work at range and its attacks deal less damage than a Ranger with a bow).

The ability is explicitly about reliability rather than peak damage, and is relevant in all circumstances, and I suspect the designers think of it as the opposite to Volley, which contributes more to peak damage in some circumstances and contributes nothing in others.

The benefit is pretty nice, anyway. With a 70% chance to hit, you average 1.4 hits with 2 attacks, 2.1 hits with 3 attacks, and about 1.8 hits with 2 attacks and Stalker's Flurry. In a 3 round combat, a Fighter with 3 attacks expects 6.3 hits, and this Ranger expects about 6.1 hits because of the extra attack in the first round. In a 4 round combat, it's 8.4 : 7.9. It's only with longer combats (which are unusual) that the Fighter hits significantly more. (Of course, this is ignoring all other class features, but I think spells + bonus action Hide is a fair trade for, say, Action Surge and manoeuvres.)

Dalebert

2015-11-02, 10:45 AM

That Warlock is ridiculously good.

After just a quick glance, both the warlock and the sorcerer options scream "power creep" to me and it worries me. It's already looking hard to justify playing a different warlock or sorcerer type without buffing them.

It's weird, though, that they only listed one spell for each level 1 through 5 of expanded spell list for it. That's just not in line with the convention so far of two per.

SharkForce

2015-11-02, 10:51 AM

Spacehamster

2015-11-02, 10:55 AM

Hey look, they made a ranger that manages to suck more! Mechanically, it's basically you get to make the extra attack your beast companion would make. Except more situational.

Extra attack every first turn of combat is hardly situational imo and the option to hide is a nice touch as is 90ft dark vision. Wis save is good meaning with resilient feat you could get all 3 "big" saves, more spell options and possibility to make a new attack if you miss all seems solid to me.

Ralanr

2015-11-02, 11:00 AM

Ranger: I can't say I have a problem with this. They get hide as a bonus action. If they allowed the benefit to apply from attacking out of stealth then it'd be great or broken.

Fighting style: Now I can use a handcrossbow at point blank. And be a wall.

Sorcerer: Am I the only one who finds it funny that the class that's usually the most flashy has a shadow based bloodline? I love it because I'm a sucker for shadow imagery, but just saying.

Warlock: Our celestial patron. Expect ham, these abilities scream ham.

"As long as my soul sparks true, I SHALL NOT FALL!" Blinds everyone after getting up.

Dalebert

2015-11-02, 11:22 AM

the convention for rangers is 0 per, a fixed list of spells known, and a tiny number of spell known slots.

so it isn't in the convention of two per level, but that convention doesn't apply to rangers.

I'm talking about the radiant warlock.

SharkForce

2015-11-02, 11:24 AM

I'm talking about the radiant warlock.

ah. fair enough.

obviously i thought you were talking about the ranger.

D-naras

2015-11-02, 11:31 AM

This ranger gets ambuscade and the bonus action hide from the last ranger playtest as an archetype ability. So I guess the chances of getting a revised ranger class are slim. Still, it looks pretty cool and effective.

lordshadowisle

2015-11-02, 11:37 AM

The level 1 abilities of the new sorc and warlock are too good for level 1 abilities. It almost begs to be a MC dip.

rollingForInit

2015-11-02, 11:44 AM

After just a quick glance, both the warlock and the sorcerer options scream "power creep" to me and it worries me. It's already looking hard to justify playing a different warlock or sorcerer type without buffing them.

I wouldn't say that. Depends on what you want and what the rest of your group needs. For instance, if you're in a group with a Paladin and a Cleric, that extra healing, while nice, might be a bit overkill. You could be better off with the Fiend's Hurl Through Hell. Temporary Hit Points doesn't stack, so if the other characters have other ways to get THP, the level 10 feature kind of sucks. If you're playing a campaign where you tend to not get knocked out very often (whether because the party plays strategically well, or because it's a low-combat campaign) the level 6 feature will come up very rarely. Compare with Misty Escape which will probably come up in most combat encounters, or Dark One's Own Luck is usually in virtually all encounters.

The level 1 feature is good, but the GOO's level 1 is waaay more fun for the right type of character.

I agree that this Warlock pacts is powerful, maybe a bit over the top here and there, but even with that I can see plenty of reasons to still play the other pacts, both for flavour and mechanical reasons.

KorvinStarmast

2015-11-02, 12:01 PM

I wouldn't say that. Depends on what you want and what the rest of your group needs. For instance, if you're in a group with a Paladin and a Cleric, that extra healing, while nice, might be a bit overkill. You could be better off with the Fiend's Hurl Through Hell. Temporary Hit Points doesn't stack, so if the other characters have other ways to get THP, the level 10 feature kind of sucks. If you're playing a campaign where you tend to not get knocked out very often (whether because the party plays strategically well, or because it's a low-combat campaign) the level 6 feature will come up very rarely. Compare with Misty Escape which will probably come up in most combat encounters, or Dark One's Own Luck is usually in virtually all encounters.

The level 1 feature is good, but the GOO's level 1 is waaay more fun for the right type of character.

I agree that this Warlock pacts is powerful, maybe a bit over the top here and there, but even with that I can see plenty of reasons to still play the other pacts, both for flavour and mechanical reasons. I love the warlock idea, not sure if it's got the usual loop holes that UA class ideas have ..

JakOfAllTirades

2015-11-02, 12:55 PM

Yorrin

2015-11-02, 01:05 PM

I'm torn between really liking some of what they're experimenting with here and seeing so much potential power creep.

The new fighting styles are cool. As has already been pointed out, stacking Close Quarters Shooter with Ranged makes for some very accurate archers. Tunnel Fighter screams "4e defender" to me, and I can't help but feel that it's a concession to those who miss that type of character. That being said, it has a lot of power potential.

Deep Stalker is actually pretty well written. It took all of the best parts of the previous "Ranger Fix," got rid of most of the imbalances, and made it just more reliable. I'd play this if I were playing a Ranger.

Shadowcaster! Yay! This is very flavorful. Eyes of the Dark is kinda lame, tbh, and I'm not a big fan of the sorc point costs all over the place, but that hound makes for a great mental image. The Shadow Walk being double that of a Shadow Monk raises an eyebrow, though.

LightLock is... interesting. Radiant Soul needs to specify "Warlock Spells Only" like the other classes with spell damage bonuses. Other than that I like it a lot, and this pretty much trumps the Undying patron from SCAG in terms of survivabiltiy, imo.

GlenSmash!

2015-11-02, 01:12 PM

Now to combine the Spellless Ranger Variant and the Deep Stalker. :smallcool:

Yorrin

2015-11-02, 01:20 PM

Now to combine the Spellless Ranger Variant and the Underdark Scout. :smallcool:

ooooOOOOOOOOOoooooh! This I like.

eastmabl

2015-11-02, 01:23 PM

The level 1 abilities of the new sorc ... are too good for level 1 abilities. It almost begs to be a MC dip.

I don't know if the shadow sorcerer is a good one level dip.

Eyes of the Dark
Admittedly, taking a level of a class to get darkvision is a great thing. I have a halfling sorcerer in a party of dwarves who would really like darkvision right about now. I often times wander around away from the party with a torch serving as bait for whatever awful things wait in the darkness.

However, since sorcerers don't get sorcery points until 2nd level, it means that they can't actually use "cast darkness" half of ability for a level, which requires you to dip for two levels.

Secondly, a shadow sorcerer "can see through any darkness spell (1) that you cast (2) using this ability." Reading this ability, it doesn't mean that you can see through the darkness that your warlock pal or wizard buddy casts. Nor does it mean that you can see through the darkness spells that you cast using your own spell slots. Rather, to spam this ability, you have to feed your sorcery points into powering the ability - which means that you have to have sorcery points to spend on the ability. If you dip two levels into sorcerer, you can pull the darkness trick twice per day at most.

Is it useful? Sure. Is it gamebreaking? Hardly.

Strength of the Grave

You gain the ability not to avoid death like a zombie. This ability, when coupled with a Con ST proficiency, is a handy thing to keep in your back pocket. At low levels, it's quite helpful (Con ST DC 10 to remain at 1 hp after the goblin shanks me? Yes, please).

However, once you get up to higher levels where even cantrips do 20 damage (e.g. Fire Bolt 22 (4d10) fire damage), making a DC 25 Con ST can be difficult.

eastmabl

2015-11-02, 01:29 PM

So the floor's open for nominations. Undying Light Self-Help-Addicted Warlock needs a serious patron.

Any suggestions?

Step 1: there is a god of light who has angels. Let's call him Pelor.
Step 2: Pelor dies in a tragic underpants gnome mishap (???), but all of his angels remain in the heavens and able to wield power.
Step 3: the greatest of these angels - let's call them the Chayos HaKodesh - continue his work. While there is no deity to grant powers to mortals, the Chayos HaKodesh can give snippets of their own powers to mortals who agree to serve the angels.

Boom. You've flipped the script on the normal "devil warlock."

Flashy

2015-11-02, 01:35 PM

Tunnel fighter + Sentinel is more than a little ridiculous.

Tanarii

2015-11-02, 01:36 PM

Glad to see they finally clarified that it's RAI to allow you to hide on your turn whenever the conditions apply. This resolves the 'closely observed' debate pretty conclusively in favor of pop-up (or in this case pop-out) attacks with bonus actions being a valid tactic.

Under Deep Stalker:

Deep Stalkers often use this ability to make ranged attacks, move beyond the scope of their foes’ darkvision, and then hide

Fable Wright

2015-11-02, 01:43 PM

If you dip two levels into sorcerer, you can pull the darkness trick twice per day at most.

...Right. Because Sorcerers don't have options to convert spell slots into Sorcery Points. It's not like you can just burn a 1st level spell slot for another activation, or burn a 2nd level one for two more uses. :smallconfused:

Yorrin

2015-11-02, 01:55 PM

Step 1: there is a god of light who has angels. Let's call him Pelor.

I think the intent is to have Pelor/Lathander/Ra/etc be the patron, depending on your setting.

I know in my homebrew setting Warlock is just another flavor of Cleric, as one devoted to a god whose portfolio lines up with one of the "patron" options. e.g. my god of elves can be a fey patron, my god of the sea is a GOO patron, the Asmodeous-equivalent obviously covers fiend pact, etc. Players can choose patrons other than these, but NPC warlocks are all religious to one degree or another.

With that in mind, I don't actually have a god of light (shocking, I know. My "goodguy-human" deity is a god of storms), so I'm not sure where I'm going to fit this into my world if it reaches full publication. Perhaps as a grassroots sect?

eastmabl

2015-11-02, 02:29 PM

...Right. Because Sorcerers don't have options to convert spell slots into Sorcery Points. It's not like you can just burn a 1st level spell slot for another activation, or burn a 2nd level one for two more uses. :smallconfused:

Holding aside the fact that 2nd level sorcerers don't get 2nd level spells, I suppose that you are right.

So, five times per day? Assuming that you abide by a standard adventuring day of 6-8 encounters per day, I still don't think that it's the most mind-blowing dip in the world.

Ralanr

2015-11-02, 02:35 PM

I think the intent is to have Pelor/Lathander/Ra/etc be the patron, depending on your setting.

I know in my homebrew setting Warlock is just another flavor of Cleric, as one devoted to a god whose portfolio lines up with one of the "patron" options. e.g. my god of elves can be a fey patron, my god of the sea is a GOO patron, the Asmodeous-equivalent obviously covers fiend pact, etc. Players can choose patrons other than these, but NPC warlocks are all religious to one degree or another.

With that in mind, I don't actually have a god of light (shocking, I know. My "goodguy-human" deity is a god of storms), so I'm not sure where I'm going to fit this into my world if it reaches full publication. Perhaps as a grassroots sect?

Doesn't have to be of light. Despite the obvious connections, you can use it for another flavor and justify light as its weapon. So it could be for a god of hope or something.

CNagy

2015-11-02, 02:49 PM

Close Combat Shooter is decent; it trades +1 from Archery style for the less useful abilities of Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. You'd need to be MC or a Champion to double it up with the Archery style, and then if you were going to invest that much into ranged combat you'd want to end up getting at least Sharpshooter anyway and probably Crossbow Expert, too.

Tunnel Fighter is finally a good tanking fighting style. With a reach weapon and Sentinel, you can most certainly hold the bridge/tunnel/hilltop with "You Shall Not Pass!" badness... at least until the horde hacks you to pieces. I don't think it makes it to prime time with this kind of wording, though, I expect the eventual wording to make it clear that only OAs resulting from creatures leaving your reach don't cost your reaction, to keep PM+Sentinel+Tunnel Fighter from being a 5' shifting meatgrinder.

I'm loving the ranger; this class seems to be the master of action-less attacks. Bonus speed is nice, extra attack on the first turn is good. Darkvision out to 90 feet solves the Human Ranger problem. Iron Mind and Stalker's Flurry encourage more than just a dip into the class. I like Stalker's Flurry in particular because as written it works nicely with Two Weapon Fighting--miss with either weapon, have the choice to either make an additional attack with that weapon or use the other weapon. Very cinematic and situationally a slight mechanical advantage above and beyond more reliably landing attacks.

rollingForInit

2015-11-02, 03:15 PM

The one thing about the Undyling Light warlock that looks potentially unbalancing to me (this is gonna sound weird) is the lack of a real patron. /../ And it sounds like he got his powers from a badly written eldritch self-help book.[/tirade]

How involved the conventional patrons are is 100% DM-dependent, though. Some DM's will use it for plot hooks, others will never ever mention it. Some Warlocks want the plot hooks, others just want the mechanics. This is a good way to demonstrate that the Warlock mechanics can work without an actual Patron. A bit like how you can have a Paladin that's devoted to a concept rather than an actual deity.

If you want an actual living patron for the Undying Light, personally, I'd go with an angel. An angel in service to a deity, and the angel needs mortals to do its dirty work or run errands that is beneath it's dignity. Perhaps it wants the mortal to do things that it cannot do itself, or that it wouldn't, given its virtuous nature.

CNagy

2015-11-02, 03:24 PM

KorvinStarmast

2015-11-02, 03:33 PM

So the floor's open for nominations. Undying Light Self-Help-Addicted Warlock needs a serious patron.

Any suggestions?
A celestial of some sort?
A Planetar or a Solar with a motive?

I have in mind something like the Archangel who helped Damiano in that series of books by R.A MacAvoy. (http://www.amazon.com/The-Damiano-Series-Damianos-Raphael-ebook/dp/B00NVZPCTK) ?

(By the way, the books are excellent).

deathbymanga

2015-11-02, 03:56 PM

I'm personally head over heels for this new Ranger Archetype. But, head-over-heels in the same way I'll be head-over-heals if Assassin's Creed Syndicate is a half-decent game and not riddled with bugs. Seriously, it's taken them this long to come up with something good for the rangers in the unearthed arcana? I personally really liked Beast Master and thought Hunter was passable, so why is it so hard to follow those up?

Shadow Sorcerer is actually looking to be one of my new favorite classes. I mean, I use to DM a campaign that had a Shadow Monk and an Old One Warlock in the same group. By the time they were at 3rd level they were comboing Darkness with Devil's Sight to completely destroy a Hill Giant I had sent after them. Not to mention, unlike Stormborn and Favoured Soul, the Shadow Sorcerer doesn't get any extra spells besides Darkness, so they are lacking in the spell variety, which was kind of the point behind sorcerers anyway, wasn't it? they lack a lot of spells, but make up for it by maximizing the spells they do have to their fullest. That's why they get those metamagics and can choose how many spell slots they want to cast with. a lot of level 1s or a lot of higher levels or an even amount.

Not to mention dipping into sorcerer is done all the time beforehand. Dragonblood is an awesome dip for Gish classes. Not to mention Stormborn lets you fly, pretty powerful by 5e's standards.

tieren

2015-11-02, 04:06 PM

I think the flat boost to range attacks on close quarters shooter should have a range limitation as well. It doesn't make sense if you also have sharpshooter and are targeting something 600 feet away that your close combat fighting style would give you a bonus.

Picturing say a champion fighter with archery and close quarters shooter fighting styles and sharp shooter feat.

zylodrizzt

2015-11-02, 04:28 PM

After this article I wonder how many stacking or different instances of "I'm not dead yet" you could get on 1 character. I think 4 1/2 orc shadow sorc light (maybe that new one in SCAG too) warlock long death monk. I don't think you can add barb enough and not sure of spells that can do the same thing but it could be a character that knows where he will end up if he don't shape up.

silveralen

2015-11-02, 04:32 PM

The ability to stack both ranged fighting styles seems extreme currently. +3 to attack, when melee users can't even get a +1, is very much breaking the scaling at this point.

Love tunnel fighter though, glad that got added, seems balanced honestly. Should be fun to see.

Underdark scout looks kinda okay until we get to lvl 11 and 15, where it completely drops off. I'm not sure if this is due to the expanded spell list, but these features really lack oomph for that level. It's almost ranger capstone level bad.

Shadow sorcerer.... those 1st/2nd level perks are kinda absurd. Being able to spam darkness you can see through and gain darkvision, and have the save when on low health to stay up is a really great package. Rogue and paladin come to mind as good options for it. The fact you also get meta magic and spell progression means it is a steal for most casters who don't need their capstone that badly (warlock and bard come to mind). The perks beyond that look solid, if a bit odd (the hound is.... strange to say the least).

Why does this warlock get a bonus to damage for two separate types of spells? Okay yes, the spells that actually deal that damage within his class are pretty much only the spells on the list and like 2 more, which would matter more if flaming sphere wasn't on there. Congrats, warlock at will damage is now at an all time high. Oh, and resistance to the most common elemental damage type on all the time. The other abilities are also fairly powerful compared to the player's handbook. I honestly struggle to imagine why you wouldn't use this patron mechanically.

Michael7123

2015-11-02, 04:54 PM

Well, now I have a sorcerer subclass option that I can use in the place of my dread necro. I love how they handled the sorcerer archetype, except for the level 6 ability. I personally think that should have given access to a limited form of animate dead.

deathbymanga

2015-11-02, 04:58 PM

Well, now I have a sorcerer subclass option that I can use in the place of my dread necro. I love how they handled the sorcerer archetype, except for the level 3 ability. I personally think that should have given access to a limited form of animate dead.

that actually sounds like something I'd be willing to homebrew allow as a DM, would be fun for a Sorcerer than can summon the dead

Tarvil

2015-11-02, 05:08 PM

I love new Sorcerer and Warlock archetypes. Especially Sorcerer is much better that poorly designed Favoured Soul or Tempest. No more free flying and free spells.

Mcdt2

2015-11-02, 05:15 PM

Well, now I have a sorcerer subclass option that I can use in the place of my dread necro. I love how they handled the sorcerer archetype, except for the level 3 ability. I personally think that should have given access to a limited form of animate dead.

Personally, I'm very glad they didn't do this. I'm tired of "shadow" being always equated with undead, thematically.

Darkzekkai

2015-11-02, 05:32 PM

I just wanna state that I really like what they did for the warlock and the sorcerer. Both are fun, flavorful options.

Sigreid

2015-11-02, 05:35 PM

Close Quarters Shooter is just Sharpshooter's main benefit without the feat cost.

It's also what I consider the important part of Crossbow Expert, negating disadvantage when in melee range of an opponent.

Sigreid

2015-11-02, 05:39 PM

Most of the stuff doesn't appeal to me. Doesn't revolt or anger me either. I like the light warlock idea and hope they run with it.

Kane0

2015-11-02, 05:44 PM

That warlock looks amazing, I'm looking forward to that being released somewhere.

The fighting styles tread into feat territory, but I like what they're trying to do. Better to keep it simple though, I think the close quarters shooting one has too much going on.

Shadow sorcerer looks great too, but i wonder why not just give darkness as an extra spell known and the improved darkvision applies to all darkness spells.

Michael7123

2015-11-02, 05:53 PM

Personally, I'm very glad they didn't do this. I'm tired of "shadow" being always equated with undead, thematically.

There already is some reference, especially with the optional flaws table making you seem to be partially undead yourself.

silveralen

2015-11-02, 06:15 PM

Well, now I have a sorcerer subclass option that I can use in the place of my dread necro. I love how they handled the sorcerer archetype, except for the level 3 ability. I personally think that should have given access to a limited form of animate dead.

You could always alter the fluff of the hound ability this way if you chose. Not amazing but just a thought. The 18 could allow you to become wraith like, rather than shadow like as well.

Sception

2015-11-02, 06:21 PM

Hrm. Human paladin with resilient con, a 14 con score, max cha, the save aura, and a bless up, is rocking, what +14 to +17 on con saves? Could be worth the dip.

The tunnel fighter looks nice, but the extra attacks are situational, and since it costs a minor to activate, you need to get in two of them to actually be up an attack over whatever you would have been doing with your minor, otherwise.

Flashy

2015-11-02, 06:24 PM

Well, now I have a sorcerer subclass option that I can use in the place of my dread necro. I love how they handled the sorcerer archetype, except for the level 3 ability. I personally think that should have given access to a limited form of animate dead.

Unfortunately this still doesn't work. For some god forsaken reason Animate Dead isn't on the sorcerer list, literally the only way to get it is favored soul: death domain.

CNagy

2015-11-02, 06:42 PM

The tunnel fighter looks nice, but the extra attacks are situational, and since it costs a minor to activate, you need to get in two of them to actually be up an attack over whatever you would have been doing with your minor, otherwise.

Situational, yes, but you can sort of create the situation. Take a Eldritch Knight with Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel, put him in an open plain. He sweeps through the opponents, using an attack action to take however many attacks or casting Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade or any of the those new cantrips, and he ends his move past them, putting them between him and the party. Then he enters defensive stance.

If the enemies make a break for it, he gets an OA against each of them and knocks their speed to 0. If one of them attempts to attack the rest of the party at range, he gets to spend his reaction to attack. If he has War Caster, maybe those OAs are actually cantrips.

I mean, you potentially put yourself in a lot of danger by diving headlong into the enemy lines, but if you are a hard enough target and you get some support at range from the party, you turn the pincer attack into a credible 5e strategy.

Edit... hello, Bladesinger! Welcome to being a hard target.

Hawkstar

2015-11-02, 06:46 PM

I am annoyed that the Light Warlock has nothing but blasts... I'd expect it to also have healing ability (Y'know... Positive Energy's primary trait?)

deathbymanga

2015-11-02, 06:47 PM

Unfortunately this still doesn't work. For some god forsaken reason Animate Dead isn't on the sorcerer list, literally the only way to get it is favored soul: death domain.

take a single level dip into Wizard to get access to their spell book and put Animate Dead in there.

Flashy

2015-11-02, 06:57 PM

take a single level dip into Wizard to get access to their spell book and put Animate Dead in there.

You'd still have to be able to cast 3rd level spells as a wizard in order to be able to prepare it though.

Ralanr

2015-11-02, 07:08 PM

I am annoyed that the Light Warlock has nothing but blasts... I'd expect it to also have healing ability (Y'know... Positive Energy's primary trait?)

Final abilities heal/give temporary hit points.

Steampunkette

2015-11-02, 07:26 PM

Doesn't have to be of light. Despite the obvious connections, you can use it for another flavor and justify light as its weapon. So it could be for a god of hope or something.

"My Patron is Steven Spielberg"

"What?"

"Have you SEEN his movies? Everything terrible happens in the light. Schindler's List: Every innocent Jew is killed in the daytime. ET's got magic powers in the darkness, but the Government brings in giant white plastic housing and he nearly dies. Saving Private Ryan has a Jewish man Knifed by a Nazi while a cowardly Gentile stands by, knowing what's happening and not helping. Poltergeist could basically have the subtitle 'Light is scary and will steal your children', Spielberg treats Light as evil!

His whole movie core is holocaust horror: Everything terrible happened right in front of everyone, in broad daylight, and no one tried to stop it for -years-."

Hawkstar

2015-11-02, 07:33 PM

Final abilities heal/give temporary hit points.

But they come 14 levels too late. They should have healing spells.

DracoKnight

2015-11-02, 07:37 PM

"My Patron is Steven Spielberg"

"What?"

"Have you SEEN his movies? Everything terrible happens in the light. Schindler's List: Every innocent Jew is killed in the daytime. ET's got magic powers in the darkness, but the Government brings in giant white plastic housing and he nearly dies. Saving Private Ryan has a Jewish man Knifed by a Nazi while a cowardly Gentile stands by, knowing what's happening and not helping. Poltergeist could basically have the subtitle 'Light is scary and will steal your children', Spielberg treats Light as evil!

His whole movie core is holocaust horror: Everything terrible happened right in front of everyone, in broad daylight, and no one tried to stop it for -years-."

This. Is. AMAZING.

Yeah. . . I work with people who are in the film industry, and they all laugh at Spielberg's "Spotlight Fetish."

Steampunkette

2015-11-02, 07:38 PM

This. Is. AMAZING.

Yeah. . . I work with people who are in the film industry, and they all laugh at Spielberg's "Spotlight Fetish."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yAiKPeAiHc

Ralanr

2015-11-02, 07:38 PM

"My Patron is Steven Spielberg"

This is out of context, but may I quote/sig this?

Steampunkette

2015-11-02, 07:44 PM

Yes. Yes, you may.

Rhaegar14

2015-11-02, 07:44 PM

Situational, yes, but you can sort of create the situation. Take a Eldritch Knight with Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel, put him in an open plain. He sweeps through the opponents, using an attack action to take however many attacks or casting Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade or any of the those new cantrips, and he ends his move past them, putting them between him and the party. Then he enters defensive stance.

If the enemies make a break for it, he gets an OA against each of them and knocks their speed to 0. If one of them attempts to attack the rest of the party at range, he gets to spend his reaction to attack. If he has War Caster, maybe those OAs are actually cantrips.

I mean, you potentially put yourself in a lot of danger by diving headlong into the enemy lines, but if you are a hard enough target and you get some support at range from the party, you turn the pincer attack into a credible 5e strategy.

Edit... hello, Bladesinger! Welcome to being a hard target.

Not to mention that there are plenty of characters who don't always have a use for their bonus action. Besides, it's not about raw damage, it's about battlefield control. A polearm, Sentinel, and Tunnel Fighter basically makes you a 5x5 square of nope, and if you add in Polearm Master then it reaches even further out, provided they're moving toward you. Plus Polearm Master gives the added bonus of trading in defensive stance for extra damage if you don't need the extra opportunity attacks this turn.

I really like the idea behind this fighting style, but the wording needs to be changed to only affect squares next to you, as similar mechanics worked in 4e. As written it allows a little too much battlefield dominance.

EDIT: My reading of the ability was a bit flawed. You still need a reaction to punish people moving around within your threatened space, it just gives you the option to do so, and this is explicitly not an opportunity attack. It is more under control than I thought.

Safety Sword

2015-11-02, 08:07 PM

I have a problem with any ability that gives you darkvision. Especially at Level 1...

I have no problem with senses that work in the dark, just not actual darkvision.

Flashy

2015-11-02, 08:14 PM

I have a problem with any ability that gives you darkvision. Especially at Level 1...

I have no problem with senses that work in the dark, just not actual darkvision.

You know 2/3rds of the player races start with darkvision, right? Literally everything that's not human, halfling, or dragonborn.

DracoKnight

2015-11-02, 08:46 PM

Kane0

2015-11-02, 08:53 PM

You know 2/3rds of the player races start with darkvision, right? Literally everything that's not human, halfling, or dragonborn.

And even then Dragonborn should have it.

deathbymanga

2015-11-02, 08:53 PM

Yeah. Most of the races get it. I honestly don't know why it's a 2nd level spell instead of a 1st level spell.

because its magical Darkvision that can see through even magical darkness

Ralanr

2015-11-02, 09:06 PM

And even then Dragonborn should have it.

They really should. But they aren't "right" for d&d.

I still think they don't get new stuff is because of their association with 4e.

DracoKnight

2015-11-02, 09:32 PM

because its magical Darkvision that can see through even magical darkness

No. No it doesn't.

Darkvision
2nd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (either a pinch of driedcarrot or an agate)
Duration: 8 hours
You touch a willing creature to grant it the ability to see in the dark. For the duration, that creature has darkvision out to a range of 60 feet.

It says darkness. Not magical darkness.

DanyBallon

2015-11-02, 09:46 PM

No. No it doesn't.

It says darkness. Not magical darkness.

Eyes of the dark is a magical darkvision, that let the shadow sorcerer see in any darkness that he cast.

DracoKnight

2015-11-02, 09:49 PM

Eyes of the dark is a magical darkvision, that let the shadow sorcerer see in any darkness that he cast.

I'm not talking about the Shadow Sorcerer. I'm talking about the Darkvision spell. As it is, it's a 2nd level spell that grants you a feature that most races get for free. Deathbymanga said that the spell granted you the ability to see through magical darkness, when in fact it doesn't.

EDIT: And, Eyes of the Dark is a class feature, not a spell :P

DanyBallon

2015-11-02, 10:08 PM

I'm not talking about the Shadow Sorcerer. I'm talking about the Darkvision spell. As it is, it's a 2nd level spell that grants you a feature that most races get for free. Deathbymanga said that the spell granted you the ability to see through magical darkness, when in fact it doesn't.

EDIT: And, Eyes of the Dark is a class feature, not a spell :P

Sorry, it's been a sequence of misunderstanding that led to my post. I thought that you were arguing about the darkvision granted by Eyes of the dark, because I also thought that deathbymanga was refering to this particular ability. :smallbiggrin:

deathbymanga

2015-11-02, 10:20 PM

DracoKnight

2015-11-02, 10:57 PM

I thought the discussion was specifically of the Shadow sorcerer

I was referring to the Darkness spell itself.

Sigreid

2015-11-02, 11:35 PM

Not necessarily. The Great Old One description straight up states that your Eldritch Horror Boss may not even know you exist and, if it finds out, may not care. Hell, I consider GOO patrons to be so alien that even if it does have a specific role for you to play in its agenda, it may be 10,000 years before your particular services are required.

You may be getting your power as a minor character in its dreams during it's endless slumber. Even if it does want something from you, you're not likely to ever figure out what that is.

Michael7123

2015-11-02, 11:41 PM

Unfortunately this still doesn't work. For some god forsaken reason Animate Dead isn't on the sorcerer list, literally the only way to get it is favored soul: death domain.

I already talked to my DM before this sorcerer archetype came out. We both agreed that, worst case scenario, I could just take the wild Mage sorcerer and add animate dead to my spell list. I doubt he's going to both allow me to use this archetype and not allow me to use the spell that I practically based my character on.

recapdrake

2015-11-02, 11:55 PM

deathbymanga

2015-11-03, 12:15 AM

Best part about this warlock patron? It allows for cleric multiclass. None of the other patrons do that...except maybe the undying one with a death domain.

what about Archfey with Nature Cleric?

2015-11-03, 12:16 AM

I don't really like the idea of "level dipping" for multiclassing, but I admit if I got a fire dragon sorcerer to level 6 it would be impossible to resist taking a level of warlock next just to get Charisma mod to fire damage spells yet again.

DracoKnight

2015-11-03, 12:30 AM

2015-11-03, 12:35 AM

How do you get this?

Well, the first-level Undying Light Patron warlock feature, Radiant Soul, adds your Charisma modifier to the damage of radiant and fire spells. The sixth-level Dragon Sorcerer feature, Elemental Affinity, also adds your Charisma modifier to the damage of spells that deal damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry (which can be fire). At least, unless I am missing something critical here.

deathbymanga

2015-11-03, 12:42 AM

Well, the first-level Undying Light Patron warlock feature, Radiant Soul, adds your Charisma modifier to the damage of radiant and fire spells. The sixth-level Dragon Sorcerer feature, Elemental Affinity, also adds your Charisma modifier to the damage of spells that deal damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry (which can be fire). At least, unless I am missing something critical here.

class abilties that do the same thing cannot stack as I understand

Ralanr

2015-11-03, 12:44 AM

what about Archfey with Nature Cleric?

Or Archfey with Ancients paladin? That is just begging for it.

2015-11-03, 12:49 AM

class abilties that do the same thing cannot stack as I understand

A DM may rule it that way, but I've not seen anything in a rulebook to that effect. The closest thing I can find is from spell-stacking rules--you can't stack the effect of the exact same spell over and over, but two AC-boosting spells with different names do stack. There are also notes that you can't take the same Fighting Style option twice, even if you get the feature again, but again, that's options with the same name. These are two different features with different names, and the features themselves do different things aside from that one area of overlap.

Scuronotte

2015-11-03, 12:56 AM

I do like the Stalker Ranger, but the Core Ranger features are what needs to be corrected/improved.

T.G. Oskar

2015-11-03, 12:59 AM

Of all UA articles so far, this one has me quite excited.

Close Quarters Shooter isn't exactly super-broken, but it's nice. It disables one of the key disadvantages of ranged attackers (attacking while threatened in melee), and while its effects overlap with the Archery style and the Sharpshooter feat, they are nice nonetheless.

I dig Tunnel Fighter, though. Kinda redundant if you allow the Mark ability (to allow opportunity attacks without using your Reaction), but the ability to essentially force an attack if an opponent moves is pretty awesome. Any idea if it works with Battlemaster maneuvers? Otherwise, Trip Attack on this free melee attack will become the new standard for Lockdown.

Deep Stalker gives hope that Rangers can be nice. It's one of the few classes (aside from the Rogue) that can Hide as a bonus action, which depending on the DM means you suddenly don't become a target. Free Greater Invisibility is cool too, the extra attack on a miss adds reliability, and quite surprised at Iron Mind (Rangers now get good Dex and Wis saves; as said, with Resilient [Con], you resist the three key saving throws + Strength, meaning you get superb defenses). After 13th level (and Greater Invisibility), it gets kinda "meh", though.

Shadow Sorcerer...not a big fan of it, but I'm not a fan of arcane casters though. As mentioned, it's cool to see that darkness =/= evil or undeath.

Undying Light Warlocks suddenly make for interesting dips for Paladin, though. Adding Charisma when using spells like Branding Smite is pretty awesome, and you still get Sacred Fire as a ranged cantrip alongside Eldritch Blast (both getting Cha to damage), covering most of your needs. A 2-level dip is fine for a Pally, while still getting the increased range to auras. On the other hand, on its own, it's great as a pinch-healer and Radiant Resilience is an awesome reason why to go for short rests (1/2 level + Cha modifier means that you have at least a buffer of 5-15 temp. HP for the next battle your allies have, which if further mitigated can easily negate one attack, which can be enough to determine success in further battles).

All in all, everything seems good. Tunnel Fighting Paladin with Sentinel should be fun, as well as Paladin with a 2-level Undying Light Warlock dip. Deep Stalker Ranger should also be an interesting thing to observe (at least I know one of my players might take a look at it).

deathbymanga

2015-11-03, 01:07 AM

I do like the Stalker Ranger, but the Core Ranger features are what needs to be corrected/improved.

NO! NO! BAD BOY! GO TO YOUR ROOM!

I am sick and tired of Wizard trying to "fix" the ranger. It's a decent class. both archetypes are decent. Stop trying to "fix" it

Nishant

2015-11-03, 01:39 AM

Okay, so skimmed through, not sure this has been mentioned, or is nearly as impressive thanks to the new monk subclass, but Radiant Vengeance... HOLY CRAP, WHAT?! granted, you have to be taken to zero to use it, but seriously, how do you even? Now I have to check if its possible to get the long death insta-life along with the radiant vengeance..

Coyote81

2015-11-03, 01:40 AM

Hmmm, this latest ranger archtype isn't meant to fix anything, it's actually the same thing all the other classes are receiving, new archtypes and different themes.

Malifice

2015-11-03, 01:51 AM

I use to DM a campaign that had a Shadow Monk and an Old One Warlock in the same group. By the time they were at 3rd level they were comboing Darkness with Devil's Sight to completely destroy a Hill Giant I had sent after them.

Darkness is a 15' radius hemisphere.

How would that bother a 10' Hill Giant overly?

zylodrizzt

2015-11-03, 02:01 AM

recapdrake

2015-11-03, 02:27 AM

what about Archfey with Nature Cleric?

I'm not looking at the deity list right now but off the top of my head this would only work with gods like frey and freya who are fey as well as being gods of nature. The undying is able to coexist with death domain because your patron for undying is the exact same as your deity. Vecna, the black abbot, the undying court, other super powerful liches that reached godhood.
The same goes with the new warlock because it specifies that it's not a specific entity meaning there is no collision between the patron and the deity.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-03, 02:44 AM

The one thing about the Undyling Light warlock that looks potentially unbalancing to me (this is gonna sound weird) is the lack of a real patron. Yes, it's true, from a role-playing standpoint. All the other warlocks have patrons they actually have to answer to, with contractual obligations, hidden agendas, axes to grind, pet peeves, personal snits, and so forth. The Undying Light dude has what, exactly? "Positive Energy?" Well, excuuuuuse me, but that's just boring! And it sounds like he got his powers from a badly written eldritch self-help book. What's a GM supposed to do with that? It's a total non-issue. This mamby-pamby "positive energy" stuff is for wimps. Real warlocks have real patrons who give them real problems![/tirade]

So the floor's open for nominations. Undying Light Self-Help-Addicted Warlock needs a serious patron.

Any suggestions?

Well you can steal some from fiction like the Dawn Machine or The Green Sun.

Or make something up like The Eternal Sun. A force beyond good and evil that sustains the world, even as it knows that one day it shall consume everything. Timeless, it's nature is a constant force that people's live revolve around. It seeks not worship but instead; it seeks to bring the world to stasis, a never ending day, where nothing can escape the light. It seeks the propagation of life, all and any life, regardless of the consequences. And it wants to bring everything into the light. It demands it's servants bring the beings from the deepest places of the Earth and Sea up so that it may embrace them in the light. And when everyone is in the light, it will embrace the entire world, bringing about an end in Eternal Light.

Well that got kinda incoherent, but something similar to that.

Anyways, I don't see anything really wrong with any of the classes or options presented, in of themselves. Like so many things, I find that they only really become problematic if multiclassing is allowed. Though I would probably change the warlock ability to be a bonus to Radiant damage only. Or to convert Fire Damage into radiant damage. (As in, if it's already Radiant you get your charisma bonus to damage, if it's fire, you can make it radiant instead)

On the other hand, Radiant Resilience is a worse Dark One's Blessing, and while healing is nice, Hurl through Hell is 10d10 unavoidable damage after you hit a target (and gives the party a turn to recuperate), and Create Thrall is possibly the best class feature in the game. So I might not change anything if I've banned multiclassing.

Shadow Origin is good, but so is Draconic and Tempest. Shadow is very expensive sorcery points wise and strength of the grave falls off hard as the game goes on. Seriously Wild Mages need a buff of some sort. Just something to generate more Wild Surges then a 5% chance and whenever the DM feels like it.

Markoff Chainey

2015-11-03, 04:08 AM

I would have LOVED an angelic / celestial patron for a Warlock... but this!? I would feel stupid towards my fellow players for choosing something that cheesy. Same with the shadow sorcerer... great fluff, but just over the top. - And while I really like the shadow sorc, I also dislike it that he got THE signature ability from the shadow monk, but only a better version of it.

Tunnel Fighter?! One of the most important balance capstones (AoO) just got dropped by a fighting style available for 3 classes?

I really don't like it.

Scuronotte

2015-11-03, 08:40 AM

NO! NO! BAD BOY! GO TO YOUR ROOM!

I am sick and tired of Wizard trying to "fix" the ranger. It's a decent class. both archetypes are decent. Stop trying to "fix" it

It needs modification. The base class is poorly written fluff. When a combo of Rogue with ? can be a better Ranger with expertise in survival, nature, and stealth there is a problem.

had no impact in combat (as per Rodney Thompson) but create Foe Slayer as the capstone which is extremely limited in creatures targeted. They forgot their creation

I've only played a Ranger since 1e. There are times when it was the whipping boy while others when it was too powerful. The present Core features are weak. They restrict a character who is supposed to be adaptable

As a Core, we fall way behind Fighters, Paladins, & Rogues in core features that involve in offense & defense.

Most importantly, if you notice when you get out of your room that there are extremely few forums that complain of class
Forums on Ranger modification is prevalent due to general consensus that it needs to be rewritten.

Locking yourself in a room away and isolating yourself from the problems in the world doesn't mean they do not exist.
That's just ignorance on your part

PoeticDwarf

2015-11-03, 08:51 AM

Kryx

2015-11-03, 08:55 AM

As a Core, we fall way behind Fighters, Paladins, & Rogues in core features that involve in offense & defense.
The numbers I put together don't quite agree on this. Numbers compared to RAW GWM Fighter/Barb DPR Numbers:

TWF Ranger does 80% of the DPR while a TWF Fighter does 82%. TWF is just weak in general.
Longbow Ranger does 76% of the DPR while Fighter does 65%.
Heavy Crossbow Ranger does 72% of the DPR while Fighter does 63%.
Hand Crossbow Ranger does 82% of the DPR while Fighter does 73%.
http://i.imgur.com/u2C6ak5.png

TL;DR: Hunter Ranger does fine DPR. Better than the Fighter.

Steampunkette

2015-11-03, 09:07 AM

Yes. But this person is clearly self-limiting to the Ranger Single Class exclusively forever and must have the class be to their specifications or else it is autofail.

Clearly the only solution is to demand WotC change the class, rather than focus on Concept and hang Crunch out to dry, whether that means a slightly less OMGWTFPWNBBQ or rolling up a Rogue/Whatever and calling it a ranger.

CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?! YOU'RE TEARING SCURONETTE APART, KRYXA!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tng4OluHqsk

Ivellius

2015-11-03, 09:23 AM

Shadow Origin is good, but so is Draconic and Tempest. Shadow is very expensive sorcery points wise and strength of the grave falls off hard as the game goes on. Seriously Wild Mages need a buff of some sort. Just something to generate more Wild Surges then a 5% chance and whenever the DM feels like it.

If Wild Mages are using Tides of Chaos, they're supposed to just roll for a surge when they use a spell (though at DM's discretion). I had a player doing this last night. Fun times were had.

silveralen

2015-11-03, 09:23 AM

Tunnel fighter is interesting because, in its current form, it's a step beyond what most fighting styles offer. On the other hand, it offers a thing many have missed quite badly.

Ideas:

1. Give a scaling cap on AoO's per round. Your prof bonus or player's choice str/dex. So a tunnel fighter would still be locked to 2-3 AoO early on.

And/Or

2. Have tunnel fighter use your reaction. As in, while you can make multiple AoO, you can't do that and use your reaction on something else.

Or

3. Alternatively, have tunnel fighter give you an additional reaction per turn. More flexible for other uses.

CNagy

2015-11-03, 09:26 AM

It needs modification. The base class is poorly written fluff. When a combo of Rogue with ? can be a better Ranger with expertise in survival, nature, and stealth there is a problem.

Uh... Rangers get the equivalent of expertise for all Wisdom and Intelligence based ability checks related to their (eventually 3) favored terrain(s). That's perception, survival, nature, handle animal, investigation, insight, etc, etc, so long as you have proficiency in the skill. Whereas, the Rogue getting expertise in survival and nature is paying the opportunity cost of putting that expertise into skills that actually make him a better Rogue. He gives up part of his class identity in order to be a bit more like the Ranger.

Malifice

2015-11-03, 09:27 AM

Still can't see his targets so disadvantage to all attacks advantage to any one who can see. As they teleporting around has to guess squares or auto miss. Even if running up into melee no opertuniy attacks

He doesn't have to guess the square unless they're hidden in the darkness. That takes an action and requires a stealth check.

They were rogues too?

Kryx

2015-11-03, 09:35 AM

CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?! YOU'RE TEARING SCURONETTE APART, KRYXA!
:D

I see the complaint often and even thought it myself, but with recent numbers of adding Volley it's just simply not true. Though to be fair volley Ranger DPR is spread across multiple creatures and is therefore less valuable.

I do like the new option as well. At a glance it looks nice.

Longcat

2015-11-03, 09:56 AM

deathbymanga

2015-11-03, 10:22 AM

He doesn't have to guess the square unless they're hidden in the darkness. That takes an action and requires a stealth check.

They were rogues too?

no, they were in magical darkness, you can't see through magical darkness at all. it's an auto-success hide-check

T.G. Oskar

2015-11-03, 10:27 AM

Anyways, I don't see anything really wrong with any of the classes or options presented, in of themselves. Like so many things, I find that they only really become problematic if multiclassing is allowed. Though I would probably change the warlock ability to be a bonus to Radiant damage only. Or to convert Fire Damage into radiant damage. (As in, if it's already Radiant you get your charisma bonus to damage, if it's fire, you can make it radiant instead)

Oddly, I don't see many problems with it. Perhaps you're worried about Wis/Cha damage scaling on a Cleric/Warlock that chooses both Undying Light and maybe Arcane or Knowledge domains? In that case, the most practical nerf would be to apply the better of the bonuses to spell damage, at least until you can apply two stats to melee/ranged weapon attacks naturally (that way, you're not suddenly dealing more damage with cantrips than martial classes do with 2 attacks). That somewhat invalidates Cleric/Warlock MCs that focus on damage, but it does allow for decent alternatives (Undying Light Warlock/Light domain Cleric, for fluff). Paladin/Warlock gets a nice buff, though, but you can apply the same restrictions if you like (the bonus only applies to smite spells that deal radiant or fire damage anyways, and you still get the Sacred Flame and Light cantrips alongside Eldritch Blast for ranged combat needs).

On the other hand, Radiant Resilience is a worse Dark One's Blessing, and while healing is nice, Hurl through Hell is 10d10 unavoidable damage after you hit a target (and gives the party a turn to recuperate), and Create Thrall is possibly the best class feature in the game. So I might not change anything if I've banned multiclassing.

Don't think of Radiant Resilience as a worse DOB; think of it as a DOB variant. The temp. HP you get is lower (as you get it only once per short/long rest), but you share that with allies, and you want to share that with people whose damage you want mitigated (squishies and tanks). Looking at it by those means, you can see it's a pretty cool buff, which can be combined with a feat for reliable temp. HP almost every battle for you and your allies.

The healing ability is for switch-healing; as with Lay on Hands, you use it when you need it, and mostly on yourself rather than on someone else. LoH is far more reliable healing, but it's not so bad; you heal about 82 or 83 points of damage on average, which is more than what the Paladin can offer (fixed pool of 70 points), and exceeded in three more levels (pool of 85 at level 17th). It does have a superior maximum, and you can't do the burst healing a Paladin can do (by spending its entire pool at once), and you don't get the marginal benefits a Paladin gets by spending points to heal other maladies, but overall, it works more like LoH than anything else. Yes, it doesn't compare to HtH or Create Thrall (which, IIRC, wasn't that awesome as it's stated, because it's just perma-charm and not true Dominate), but it's not really bad. It's actually different, as it provides unusual options for a spell-based "striker".

silveralen

2015-11-03, 10:27 AM

Tunnel Fighter looks like it wasn't balanced with feats in mind. Combined with Polearm Master, Sentinel and Mage Slayer, you get a potentially ridiculous number of AoOs. You will also be untouchable for mook hordes.

You realize most of the things you mentioned aren't AoO, but alternative reaction uses. Polearm master is I'm almost positive, I think sentinel may be as well.

Kryx

2015-11-03, 10:36 AM

You realize most of the things you mentioned aren't AoO, but alternative reaction uses. Polearm master is I'm almost positive, I think sentinel may be as well.
Sentinel is a normal reaction. PAM is an OA. I verified in the PHB.

HarrisonF

2015-11-03, 11:05 AM

Tunnel Fighter looks like it wasn't balanced with feats in mind. Combined with Polearm Master, Sentinel and Mage Slayer, you get a potentially ridiculous number of AoOs. You will also be untouchable for mook hordes.

The interesting thing is that you are giving up your bonus action to get this. Since you already have Polearm master by definition, you would have a bonus action attack that you lose. You get a free reaction normally, so really this fighting style is only net positive when dealing with 2 OAs + 1 other reaction usage. If you don't get any AoO, then you actually are net negative since you lost your bonus action.

While it seems OP at first, I think this fighting style is actually balanced. At times, it will be really awesome and shine. At other times, it will be kinda mediocre. And during many other situations, it will be completely dead. Comparing to the other fighting styles, they are almost always available and working and hence give larger benefits over time.

CNagy

2015-11-03, 12:08 PM

Considering how Swashbuckler's Panache ended up changing between UA and SCAG, I could see Tunnel Fighter saying something like "OAs caused by creatures leaving your reach do not cost a reaction while in Defensive Stance." I envision it as a personal sacrifice style, the fighter putting himself in more danger to keep the party safe. If PM's OA works, then with Sentinel there is no danger, just a one-man pike wall keeping a 5x5 area on lockdown.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-03, 12:16 PM

If Wild Mages are using Tides of Chaos, they're supposed to just roll for a surge when they use a spell (though at DM's discretion). I had a player doing this last night. Fun times were had.

Thus when the DM feels like it. Tides of Chaos is good if the DM is actually giving wild surges to recharge it.

Ivellius

2015-11-03, 12:27 PM

Thus when the DM feels like it. Tides of Chaos is good if the DM is actually giving wild surges to recharge it.

Yeah, but even the regular Wild Magic Surge chance isn't required for DM's to instigate when spell slots are used, so the complaint is really just that DMs may not be requiring them often enough. That is, your 5% number is effectively fabricated, as it's left up to DM discretion to use. If they're requiring a roll whenever you use spell slots, why wouldn't they be requiring it after Tides of Chaos use as well?

Having been somewhat off-topic, I really like all of the class options presented in this document. They have a few balance concerns, but I think overall they're very flavorful and distinct. I'm *really* encouraged by seeing the Ranger option, as it combines some of the martial features of their horrid exploratory Ranger rework with the base chassis. I'm concerned about Tunnel Fighting breaking the (re)action economy a bit (not saying it's OP), but I think having a few more Fighting Styles isn't bad so long as they're not combining with feat usage.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-03, 12:37 PM

Yeah, but even the regular Wild Magic Surge chance isn't required for DM's to instigate when spell slots are used, so the complaint is really just that DMs may not be requiring them often enough. That is, your 5% number is effectively fabricated, as it's left up to DM discretion to use. If they're requiring a roll whenever you use spell slots, why wouldn't they be requiring it after Tides of Chaos use as well?

Oh really? I misread that then. That's even worse. I mean the whole reason to play that class is to get wild surges.

Zalabim

2015-11-03, 01:18 PM

Uh, Kryx, some things wrong on your BM fighter. This is the Ranged RAW sheet.

1) Precision attack isn't properly tracking the increase in SD value, still. It calls Scaling D68 at all levels instead of moving up at higher levels.

2) Precision attack isn't actually worth using that way. When the average longbow hit does 19.5 damage, the difference between 50% accuracy and 72.5% accuracy is only 4.3875 average damage per attack. Even for a Heavy Crossbow dealing 20.5 damage, it's only 4.6125, which is less than 4.5 adjusted for 5% crit chance worth 4.725. Precision attack should only be used after the roll looks like a miss, and only if the miss is within a certain (pretty broad in this case) range of the target's AC.

3) Your damage total line is taking scaling lines 73, 75, and 77. For example, at level 10 that's 51% normal rounds, 12% action surge rounds, and 21% superiority rounds. That's only 84%. The result is that most level's average damage total is the same as average damage with no action surge or SD at all.

Kryx

2015-11-03, 01:56 PM

Uh, Kryx, some things wrong on your BM fighter. This is the Ranged RAW sheet.
Thanks for pointing out any issues. I'll verify and fix later tonight after my session or more likely tomorrow.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-11-03, 01:59 PM

no, they were in magical darkness, you can't see through magical darkness at all. it's an auto-success hide-check

Well, not really.

Also, here we go again....

Nishant

2015-11-03, 02:14 PM

Thanks for pointing out any issues. I'll verify and fix later tonight after my session or more likely tomorrow.

Not sure if I've said it before, but I'll say it again; thanks again for all your work there. It's quite insightful.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-03, 06:03 PM

It needs modification. The base class is poorly written fluff. When a combo of Rogue with ? can be a better Ranger with expertise in survival, nature, and stealth there is a problem.

had no impact in combat (as per Rodney Thompson) but create Foe Slayer as the capstone which is extremely limited in creatures targeted. They forgot their creation

I've only played a Ranger since 1e. There are times when it was the whipping boy while others when it was too powerful. The present Core features are weak. They restrict a character who is supposed to be adaptable

As a Core, we fall way behind Fighters, Paladins, & Rogues in core features that involve in offense & defense.

Most importantly, if you notice when you get out of your room that there are extremely few forums that complain of class
Forums on Ranger modification is prevalent due to general consensus that it needs to be rewritten.

Locking yourself in a room away and isolating yourself from the problems in the world doesn't mean they do not exist.
That's just ignorance on your part

Natural Explorer is effectively Expertise in the appropriate terrain types, and it applies to all their Intelligence/Wisdom skill proficiencies, so potentially up to 5 applications of Expertise. (Animal Handling, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, and Survival are all class skills that can benefit). On top of that, Natural Explorer provides the invaluable benefit of doubling forage output and being able to forage and stay alert for danger. This is crucial when you consider that characters will die without water after 3 days, and they only carry enough water in a waterskin for 1/2 a day.

The Ranger falls behind the Fighter on combat because the Ranger gets spellcasting instead of combat abilities. They get additional skills and exploration features. They also fall behind slightly in offense because the best offensive fighting style is GWF, and Rangers don't get that.

I would caution that a Beastmaster outdamages a Rogue (even assuming the Rogue always gets Sneak Attack damage).

Tunnel fighter is interesting because, in its current form, it's a step beyond what most fighting styles offer. On the other hand, it offers a thing many have missed quite badly.

Ideas:

1. Give a scaling cap on AoO's per round. Your prof bonus or player's choice str/dex. So a tunnel fighter would still be locked to 2-3 AoO early on.

And/Or

2. Have tunnel fighter use your reaction. As in, while you can make multiple AoO, you can't do that and use your reaction on something else.

Or

3. Alternatively, have tunnel fighter give you an additional reaction per turn. More flexible for other uses.

Tunnel Fighter seems like a way of dealing with the claim that a DM could have 30 goblins who are able to approach a character in a doorway, attack, and then move out for the next one. Now you'd just have bodies pile up and block the doorway (or make them suffer the attack of a greatsword or whatever for trying to rotate). I wouldn't hamstring it as its going to be fairly niche utility if the enemy simply engages and doesn't leave.

Tunnel Fighter looks like it wasn't balanced with feats in mind. Combined with Polearm Master, Sentinel and Mage Slayer, you get a potentially ridiculous number of AoOs. You will also be untouchable for mook hordes.

Mage Slayer does not grant an Opportunity Attack, it lets you use your reaction to make a melee attack. Same outcome, different mechanic such that it doesn't synergize with Tunnel Fighter. Same thing for Sentinel, the reaction attack is not an opportunity attack. Polearm Master's is, but on the whole Tunnel Fighter is little different than using the optional Marking rules from the DMG.

Scuronotte

2015-11-03, 08:50 PM

[QUOTE=Vogonjeltz;20031055]Natural Explorer is effectively Expertise in the appropriate terrain types, and it applies to all their Intelligence/Wisdom skill proficiencies, so potentially up to 5 applications of Expertise. (Animal Handling, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, and Survival are all class skills that can benefit). On top of that, Natural Explorer provides the invaluable benefit of doubling forage output and being able to forage and stay alert for danger. This is crucial when you consider that characters will die without water after 3 days, and they only carry enough water in a waterskin for 1/2 a day.

The Ranger falls behind the Fighter on combat because the Ranger gets spellcasting instead of combat abilities. They get additional skills and exploration features. They also fall behind slightly in offense because the best offensive fighting style is GWF, and Rangers don't get that.

I would caution that a Beastmaster outdamages a Rogue (even assuming the Rogue always gets Sneak Attack damage

Yes, but that expertise is only for terrains chosen (3 currently) while Rogue or Bard expertise will
Work in ALL terrains with skills. That is why Rangers should have expertise so can utilize in all Terrains while the chosen terrains in Natural Explorer allow other benefits

Hawkstar

2015-11-03, 09:13 PM

MeeposFire

2015-11-03, 09:27 PM

Natural Explorer is effectively Expertise in the appropriate terrain types, and it applies to all their Intelligence/Wisdom skill proficiencies, so potentially up to 5 applications of Expertise. (Animal Handling, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, and Survival are all class skills that can benefit). On top of that, Natural Explorer provides the invaluable benefit of doubling forage output and being able to forage and stay alert for danger. This is crucial when you consider that characters will die without water after 3 days, and they only carry enough water in a waterskin for 1/2 a day.

The Ranger falls behind the Fighter on combat because the Ranger gets spellcasting instead of combat abilities. They get additional skills and exploration features. They also fall behind slightly in offense because the best offensive fighting style is GWF, and Rangers don't get that.

I would caution that a Beastmaster outdamages a Rogue (even assuming the Rogue always gets Sneak Attack damage).

Tunnel Fighter seems like a way of dealing with the claim that a DM could have 30 goblins who are able to approach a character in a doorway, attack, and then move out for the next one. Now you'd just have bodies pile up and block the doorway (or make them suffer the attack of a greatsword or whatever for trying to rotate). I wouldn't hamstring it as its going to be fairly niche utility if the enemy simply engages and doesn't leave.

Mage Slayer does not grant an Opportunity Attack, it lets you use your reaction to make a melee attack. Same outcome, different mechanic such that it doesn't synergize with Tunnel Fighter. Same thing for Sentinel, the reaction attack is not an opportunity attack. Polearm Master's is, but on the whole Tunnel Fighter is little different than using the optional Marking rules from the DMG.

Well it has synergy by allowing you to use those reaction based abilities and get opportunity attacks as well but I think the idea is fairly balanced overall due to opportunity costs (bonus action causes those who benefit most with polarms to give up their bonus attack and most rounds you would not get a net benefit if you use it and if you don't use it you would be better with a different fighting style).

MaxWilson

2015-11-03, 09:33 PM

Tunnel Fighter?! One of the most important balance capstones (AoO) just got dropped by a fighting style available for 3 classes?

Only in playtest material though. I agree that it's overpowered, except in games where you're using the Mark option from the DMG, in which case it is underpowered.

Malifice

2015-11-03, 09:39 PM

no, they were in magical darkness, you can't see through magical darkness at all. it's an auto-success hide-check

Thats not the rule man.

By my reading of the rules, darkness only enables a Stealth check (by the rules, it provides heavy obscurement, which allows you to attempt the Hide action) as an action (or as a bonus action for Rogues). Simply walking into darkness, does not grant an automatic and infinite stealth check result.

Stealth checks cover things other than sight. Assuming your PC's were not attempting to be quiet (they were probably casting other spells in the darkness with V components, moving around in there, attacking, speaking to each other etc) then is there any reason the Giant couldnt hear them?

Invisibility also does not grant auto infinite Stealth check result. It just 'counts as' heavy obscurement, and enables a Steath check (as an action) - all the time, everytime. On the turn you cast invisibility, you can be attacked (at disadvantage) just fine. This remains the case until you make some effort to be quiet (via taking the Hide action).

If a creature walks into the radius of a darkness spell (and doesnt take the hide action), you retain a rough idea of where it is and can attack it just fine (at disadvantage).

I mean; this giant is swinging a 10' club in a sweeping arc in a 15' radius of darkness over six seconds. Its bound to have a chance to hit something that isnt hiding in there.

Rememebr the old 'Hide in shadows' skill? The darkness spell provides the Shadows - you still need to provide the Hide.

MaxWilson

2015-11-04, 03:58 AM

Kryx

2015-11-04, 06:46 AM

1) Precision attack isn't properly tracking the increase in SD value, still. It calls Scaling D68 at all levels instead of moving up at higher levels.

2) Precision attack isn't actually worth using that way. When the average longbow hit does 19.5 damage, the difference between 50% accuracy and 72.5% accuracy is only 4.3875 average damage per attack. Even for a Heavy Crossbow dealing 20.5 damage, it's only 4.6125, which is less than 4.5 adjusted for 5% crit chance worth 4.725. Precision attack should only be used after the roll looks like a miss, and only if the miss is within a certain (pretty broad in this case) range of the target's AC.

3) Your damage total line is taking scaling lines 73, 75, and 77. For example, at level 10 that's 51% normal rounds, 12% action surge rounds, and 21% superiority rounds. That's only 84%. The result is that most level's average damage total is the same as average damage with no action surge or SD at all.
@Zalabim, thanks again for finding any errors. :)
1. Fixed
2. Fixing #1 helped the DPR here. BM Archers have mediocre DPR options. I houserule an option for them to pin a target to an object if the target is adjacent to it, but this is RAW so lets discuss that: We can't assume 100% hit chance, but being able to choose after the attack is shown would increase the chance to hit. I think a 10% increase would be about right. It's about a 18-25% more DPR choice over normal now.
3. I revamped that section and indeed left Ranged RAW out in the cold. Fixed.

Not sure if I've said it before, but I'll say it again; thanks again for all your work there. It's quite insightful.
Thanks so much - it's great to hear that people appreciate it!

Markoff Chainey

2015-11-04, 08:07 AM

Kryx, in the name of my group, many thanks for your work! We really do appreciate well done graphs and excel sheets :)

One more thing that struck me in the UA - do I read the Fighting Style: Closed Quarter correctly, that by raw, it also applies to ranged spell attacks, as it does not say "ranged weapon attack" but "ranged attack"? - that would increase the usefulness of a dip for any mage-class greatly.

deathbymanga

2015-11-04, 08:19 AM

How does Tunnel Fighter work with a Ranged weapon like a Long-Bow? Can they just fire a hundred arrows at once as Opportunity Attacks against an army?

Markoff Chainey

2015-11-04, 08:25 AM

How does Tunnel Fighter work with a Ranged weapon like a Long-Bow? Can they just fire a hundred arrows at once as Opportunity Attacks against an army?

OA are always melee attacks (PHB p. 195) Warcaster changes this by explicitly stating that you can use a spell instead.

A Polearm or a whip is nice, though - especially with Sentinel. Maybe you can talk your DM into allowing a special kind of whip as a monk weapon..

Can maybe anyone answer my question before it gets lost in the rain :smallsmile:: Do I read the Fighting Style: Closed Quarter correctly, that by raw, it also applies to ranged spell attacks, as it does not say "ranged weapon attack" but "ranged attack"?

deathbymanga

2015-11-04, 09:16 AM

OA are always melee attacks (PHB p. 195) Warcaster changes this by explicitly stating that you can use a spell instead.

A Polearm or a whip is nice, though - especially with Sentinel. Maybe you can talk your DM into allowing a special kind of whip as a monk weapon..

Can maybe anyone answer my question before it gets lost in the rain :smallsmile:: Do I read the Fighting Style: Closed Quarter correctly, that by raw, it also applies to ranged spell attacks, as it does not say "ranged weapon attack" but "ranged attack"?

so, could you use War Caster + Tunnel Fighter to spam firebolts at people?

Ralanr

2015-11-04, 09:17 AM

so, could you use War Caster + Tunnel Fighter to spam firebolts at people?

Why not Eldritch Blast?

deathbymanga

2015-11-04, 09:26 AM

Why not Eldritch Blast?

why not? five enemies, 25 eldritch blasts

Markoff Chainey

2015-11-04, 09:32 AM

so, could you use War Caster + Tunnel Fighter to spam firebolts at people?

nope... you cannot. Tunnel Fighter allows you to enter a "defensive stance" to make opportunity attacks without using your reaction - Warcaster says that you can use your reaction (!) to cast a spell when a creature provokes an AO...

So Warcaster + Tunnelfighter allows you to "spam" only 1 Firebolt, because afterwards you are out of reactions. It would be different if Warcaster would be specifically worded that "whenever you can make an AO, you could cast a spell instead", but it is not.

Ivellius

2015-11-04, 09:39 AM

Can maybe anyone answer my question before it gets lost in the rain :smallsmile:: Do I read the Fighting Style: Closed Quarter correctly, that by raw, it also applies to ranged spell attacks, as it does not say "ranged weapon attack" but "ranged attack"?

I would say yes. The doc as a whole is kind of sloppily written, though, and I would expect it to get changed if it ever sees official release.

Ralanr

2015-11-04, 10:01 AM

why not? five enemies, 25 eldritch blasts

Combine it with repelling blast. Everyone gets knocked back.

Such a scene belongs in an epic.

Citan

2015-11-04, 10:58 AM

After just a quick glance, both the warlock and the sorcerer options scream "power creep" to me and it worries me. It's already looking hard to justify playing a different warlock or sorcerer type without buffing them.

It's weird, though, that they only listed one spell for each level 1 through 5 of expanded spell list for it. That's just not in line with the convention so far of two per.
Hi all!
Sorry I don't have time for now to read all comments.
I partially agree with this one though, while I'm not as worried as him. :)

Fighting Styles are nearly "a feat without a feat cost". As a player I like this, but I really wonder how it will impact the game. Also "opportunity attacks without reaction" seems right out game-breaking to me, but many I'm just pessimistic.

Sorcerer is good, great, probably the one I'll choose now when I play a Sorcerer. It's basically an empowered Shadow Monk (speaking only about archetype benefits, not overall class obviously).

Warlock lvl1 benefit seems a bit too good, but maybe it's me. Sure, Warlock can get same or better with Agonizing Blast, but it requires an Invocation. Maybe though they did this precisely to provide an alternative to the classic "2-level Eldricht Blast" dip...

Anyways, now I see a Warlock 14 / Paladin 6 being an very potent dual-role (healer/damage dealer). Seeing as how they all synergize...
+CHA Damage > Branding Smite,
Lay on Hands + Radiant Resilience (lesser than Inspiring Leader but frees up a Feat) + Healing Light, which means lesser need to use slots on healing even if you are the only one with healing spells.
Plus the usual synergy between the two classes.

Could also be nice Warlock 1 / Bard X to cherry pick radiant offensive spells. :)

Coyote81

2015-11-04, 06:03 PM

Sitri

2015-11-04, 06:19 PM

Shadow Sorcerer 1 is an intriguing dip for a Moon Druid, between the "advantage on everything" Eyes of the Dark feature and the "now even tankier!" Strength of the Grave feature which apparently prevents you from getting knocked out of wild shape. If the Moon Druid capstone weren't so tantalizing, Shadow Sorcerer 1 would be a no-brainer.

I was thinking that Shadow Sorcerer and Light Warlock seem like a little too attractive of a one level dip for anyone looking to increase their survivability. The revival abilities look like much higher level abilities.

Additionally I can see people with the Warlock thinking, I can blind all my enemies for one round no save if I shoot myself in the face,? Done. A mechanic that would encourage that type of metagaming seems bad in my opinion.

All that said, I love the flavor of the Shadow Sorcerer.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-04, 08:10 PM

Yes, but that expertise is only for terrains chosen (3 currently) while Rogue or Bard expertise will
Work in ALL terrains with skills. That is why Rangers should have expertise so can utilize in all Terrains while the chosen terrains in Natural Explorer allow other benefits

True enough, but I'd also guesstimate that 90% of the game takes place in either the Forest or Underdark (that counts for anyone below ground right?)

Kryx

2015-11-07, 06:29 PM

FYI if anyone's curious I put up some numbers for Deepstalker Ranger w/ a Longbow: RAW version (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1935664540), Houserules version (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=784163209).

With -5/+10 (RAW) it's definitely stronger than a Hunter Ranger due to his ability to turn a miss into another attack. Without -5/+10 (houserules) then it falls a bit behind a Hunter.

I think my numbers are all correct, but I didn't look them over for too long so let me know if I messed anything up. Though looking back now I think the stealth chance is based on rogue having expertise so I should fix that.

Shining Wrath

2015-11-07, 07:14 PM

My initial DM reaction is "powerful stuff". The only thing my first inclination is to ban outright is Tunnel Fighter.

MaxWilson

2015-11-07, 08:20 PM

My initial DM reaction is "powerful stuff". The only thing my first inclination is to ban outright is Tunnel Fighter.

Shadow Sorcerer's black dog is quite powerful as well. I don't mind the 18th level resistance-to-everything shtick, in fact I think it's about the right level for a sorcerer capstone--but it does make Draconic Presence and Spell Bombardment look anemic, and by that standard it counts as power creep and should be toned down. Unfortunately.

I was thinking that Shadow Sorcerer and Light Warlock seem like a little too attractive of a one level dip for anyone looking to increase their survivability. The revival abilities look like much higher level abilities.

Additionally I can see people with the Warlock thinking, I can blind all my enemies for one round no save if I shoot myself in the face,? Done. A mechanic that would encourage that type of metagaming seems bad in my opinion.

All that said, I love the flavor of the Shadow Sorcerer.

Note: it turns out that the Shadow Sorcerer can't actually use his Sorcery-points-for-one-way-Darkness shtick at first level, because he doesn't have any sorcery points until level two. That assuages my balance concerns, because Strength of the Grave isn't tempting enough for a dip by itself. You have to dip two levels to get the Darkness thing, which feels about the right cost--especially considering all the other things Moon Druids can do with their concentration.

silveralen

2015-11-08, 12:22 AM

SharkForce

2015-11-08, 01:08 AM

Idk, the ability to grant yourself advantage for an entire fight, and disadvantage to anyone who attacks you, for the cost of a first level spell slot, seems very powerful. Less so on an actual sorc build, but very good for a number multiclass and gish builds (paladin and/or warlock+sorc come to mind).

The main weakness is action economy. Quicken spell can make this better, but puts a heavier drain on resources.

not sure if quicken can speed it up. you can only see through darkness that you create with the ability, so it mostly depends on whether your DM thinks you can use metamagic on the eyes of the dark ability (there is certainly a case to be made for being able to quicken it though, since it does specifically say you're casting the darkness spell using the ability).

in any event, i'd be surprised if it survives in its current form. it doesn't have anything that makes it a nuker, and as far as i can tell WotC thinks that sorcerers should always be focused on elemental damage spells.