Cleric/Barbarian Seeking Feat Advice

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey guys. I'm currently playing 4E as a Half Orc Barbarian/Cleric. It's a blast, and here is my build so far:


Sohei Theme. Houseruled Background that gives me Stealth Training.

Str 21
Con 10
Dex 15
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 10


1. Feat: Greatspear Proficiency.
At Wills: Righteous Brand and Howling Strike
Encounter: Mighty Hew
Daily: Weapon of the Astral Flame
2. Feat: Toughness. Utility 2: Shrug It Off
3. Encounter 3: Brutal Slam
4. Ability Scores: +1 to Str(21) and Wis(13)
Feat: Battle Awareness
5. DM gives us a houseruled +1 bonus to attacks at this level in lieu of Expertise feats.
Daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane
Boon Daily: MBA that deals my Str Mod to each enemy next to the original target.


I'm a Greatspear user, and I plan on retraining Brutal Slam for the Fighter triple attack power Rain of Blows at Level 7. So the original plan was to take Weapon Focus: Polearm at level 6. Does this seem okay to you guys, or am I still not dropping enough attacks to make that feat worth it in Heroic Tier?

Also, when I turn Level 6 do you think I should retrain Toughness? I took it because I'm a frontline combatant who couldn't spare extra Con because I'm trying to hit feat requirements as fast as I can come Levels 11 and 21. I was just dropping so much in level 1 that it seemed wise. I also wanted the 20 Str to be the best darn tootedness striker I can be. Maybe now I'll have enough HP and the monsters will hit hard enough that the extra 5 HP is negligible?

Other feats I plan on taking in Heroic Tier include Power of Skill and Thirst For Battle. I worship Kord and Bane.

[Leewei]

Did you get the Battle Cleric's Lore alternate class feature for clerics? You end up proficient in Scale Mail with a +2 Shield bonus to AC (no shield needed). It may be possible to get this without a Hybrid Talent, since the talent doesn't specifically require chainmail proficiency.

If your DM rules it requires chainmail proficiency, pick it up with a feat.

+1 Feat bonus to damage and +5 HPs are pretty meh. You're better off getting new options, like you did with Battle Awareness. Other good feats to consider would be Improved Defenses or Resilient Focus.

[DragonBaneDM]

Did you get the Battle Cleric's Lore alternate class feature for clerics? You end up proficient in Scale Mail with a +2 Shield bonus to AC (no shield needed). It may be possible to get this without a Hybrid Talent, since the talent doesn't specifically require chainmail proficiency.

If your DM rules it requires chainmail proficiency, pick it up with a feat.

+1 Feat bonus to damage and +5 HPs are pretty meh. You're better off getting new options, like you did with Battle Awareness. Other good feats to consider would be Improved Defenses or Resilient Focus.

Yep! That's why I went with this build in the first place. Barbarian attack powers while having the AC of a fighter? Sign me up, please!

Thanks for the advice on feats! Improved Defenses is a plan.

[tcrudisi]

I've never cared for Improved Defenses. I realize its rated highly and all, but I prefer to take 2 of the Superior defenses instead of Improved Defenses.

Resilient Focus is a good idea - one I forgot about. I prefer waiting until late heroic to paragon tier before taking it, however.

I still think turning Righteous Brand into a MBA is the best team-friendly thing you can do, depending on how often they grant you MBAs. It even opens up more options. (RB on a charge? Yes, its less damage ... but if you are setting up a nova for an ally...)

And WF may only be +1 damage, but this character is making multiple attacks a round, so that +1 adds up very quickly. (Obviously retrain this at level 11 if you go elemental damage, which you should.)

[EvilAnagram]

I'm typically a fan of Hafted Defense whenever I use a polearm.

[DragonBaneDM]

I'm typically a fan of Hafted Defense whenever I use a polearm.

Normally I would be too! But I'm using Battle Cleric's Lore which already gives me a +2 shield bonus to AC. It wouldn't stack with Hafted's bonuses, so it'd basically just be a +1 to Reflex, almost every other feat I'd take edges that out.

[Leewei]

Another feat suggestion:

Hybrid Talent to open up Channel Divinity shenanigans. Get Smite Undead and Favor of the Gods.

At later levels, consider ...

Demonbane allows your Channel Divinity powers that target Undead to work against Elementals (i.e. elementals, demons, archons, titans, gargoyles, etc.). If you see this sort of enemy often, it makes your 3[W] whammy a fair bit handier.

Devilbane is similar, but works on Immortals (angels, devils). These aren't nearly as common as Elementals in most campaigns, but you can decide if your situation will work.

[DragonBaneDM]

Another feat suggestion:

Hybrid Talent to open up Channel Divinity shenanigans. Get Smite Undead and Favor of the Gods.

At later levels, consider ...

Demonbane allows your Channel Divinity powers that target Undead to work against Elementals (i.e. elementals, demons, archons, titans, gargoyles, etc.). If you see this sort of enemy often, it makes your 3[W] whammy a fair bit handier.

Devilbane is similar, but works on Immortals (angels, devils). These aren't nearly as common as Elementals in most campaigns, but you can decide if your situation will work.

Favor of the Gods looks interesting for helping ensure my nova rounds sting like they're meant to.

As for the other feats...this campaign doesn't really have a defined villain or evil-army that we're fighting against yet, so any chance to take those feats now would be a stab in the dark. If anything, my character has spent most of his time fighting natural enemies like sahaugin, gnolls, and trolls. Plus, I'd need to spend feats grabbing stuff like Smite or Turn in the first place only to then have to spend another feat to take the -Bane feats.

I think I'm gonna go with Power of Skill. I have an out of turn MBA granting feat, I make MBAs off Rampage, and I'm sure the Rogue will appreciate the boost in accuracy. I also plan to retrain Toughness. That's probably going to be Superior Reflexes or Thirst for Battle, with the intention of grabbing the one I don't take now later on. They've got some synergy between the two of them, which makes Power of Skill seem less optimal, though.

[Leewei]

Power of Skill is a quite bit less useful for characters who are Strength-primary. Your MBA is already highly accurate and packs a whallop. The Power bonus to attacks from Righteous Brand is handy, but doesn't stack up very well with other accuracy-boosting powers. An extra +3 Power bonus to an ally once or twice per encounter may be worth a feat, but doesn't seem particularly optimal.

Noting that you've been battling at least partially aquatic enemies, I believe there is a feat that allows you to swim at your full Move.

If there's someone in your party that likes to Slow or Immobilize enemies, both Vicious Advantage and World Serpent's Grasp are a lot of fun.

[tcrudisi]

Power of Skill is a quite bit less useful for characters who are Strength-primary. Your MBA is already highly accurate and packs a whallop. The Power bonus to attacks from Righteous Brand is handy, but doesn't stack up very well with other accuracy-boosting powers. An extra +3 Power bonus to an ally once or twice per encounter may be worth a feat, but doesn't seem particularly optimal.

I cannot disagree more.

Who hands out those power bonuses? Leaders. He has two of them in the party. Sounds like a no-brainer, right? They'll give out +hit power bonuses to the party. Except, most of the time, that requires hitting. Heck, it's basically a cycle: they give you a bonus to hit, you give them a bonus to hit. Repeat until the monsters defenses look stupidly small.

Most leaders can grant basic attacks. This is a very good party-boosting feat. When you boost your leaders, they'll boost you. It seems weird, since most strikers just want to up their own dpr as much as possible, everyone else be darned. But I prefer to look at feat choices as "what makes the party better overall". This feat works on that level. So many leader powers give out much improved bonuses when they hit. This gives them better options on when to use those powers.

[Leewei]

Cannot disagree more? Really?

Off the top of my head:

Mark of Victory: All allies gain a +2 Power bonus to attack and damage rolls against the target UEE.

Divine Favor: Target Ally gains a +2 Power bonus to attack and damage rolls UEE.

No attack rolls required.

The Power of Skill-enhanced Righteous Brand triggers once an encounter from Battle Awareness, and maybe again by OA or some other granted MBA. It only grants the bonus when it hits, and the bonus only matters when an ally is nearby to benefit from the bonus to melee attacks. The rogue would not benefit on a ranged attack, for example.

A +3 situational Power bonus to an ally's melee attack roughly once per encounter is nice, but you can do far better for a feat.

[tcrudisi]

Cannot disagree more? Really?

Off the top of my head:

Mark of Victory: All allies gain a +2 Power bonus to attack and damage rolls against the target UEE.

Divine Favor: Target Ally gains a +2 Power bonus to attack and damage rolls UEE.

No attack rolls required.

The Power of Skill-enhanced Righteous Brand triggers once an encounter from Battle Awareness, and maybe again by OA or some other granted MBA. It only grants the bonus when it hits, and the bonus only matters when an ally is nearby to benefit from the bonus to melee attacks. The rogue would not benefit on a ranged attack, for example.

A +3 situational Power bonus to an ally's melee attack roughly once per encounter is nice, but you can do far better for a feat.

It also triggers on:

1. various items that allow you to make a MBA at appropriate triggers (a tattoo which lets you MBA when you become bloodied, for example)
2. Charge attacks. Sure, he can get +1/2/3d6 more with charge if he uses his other power, but this opens up a fantastic option. Your leader or other striker really need to hit next turn? Use this.
3. Allies granting MBA. This is mostly leaders ... but he has 2 in the party. If he's got a Warlord, this is a no-brainer. He'll be swimming in MBAs and handing out free power bonuses to attack is just awesome. Leader hands you a MBA, you hand someone else a +3 to hit. That's the kind of synergy that takes a party from "Hey, we have one very strong striker that we can get to kill everything" to "Hey, we have very strong party synergy."

Mark of Victory: only works on one target. That's very bad unless you are fighting a solo.
Divine Favor: Isn't this a daily? And it only works on one ally. They can choose you (they probably should), and you'll be even more accurate handing out +3 bonuses. In other words: this power actually makes PoS better.

[GPuzzle]

It's quite simple at that point, personally. It all depends on how many Melee Basics you're doing.

I mean, it sounds dumb when I say it (probably because it is), but the off-set is: if you're doing at least one Melee Basic outside of your turn roughly every turn (not that hard, all things considered - you can have something like Guardian's Counter, Powerful Warning and Battle Awareness granting you three Melee Basics outside of your turn), it's better to pick it up. It allows you to play a role which Barbarian|Cleric goes surprisingly well in without needing to sacrifice much damage, which is that of the Leadstriker.

Besides, all things considered, you don't lose much from it, but your party gains a lot. Even when all things are considered, you probably aren't going to get particularly hampered in any regards.

Hell, even if you're rolling Gouge+Battle Awareness+Surprising Charge+Spear Expertise, that still allows you to pick everything up by Level 8, or Level 6 if you're a Human, which means that even if you're going for Frostcheese you can still sneak in Hybrid Talent, Superior Will or Improved Defenses before reaching level 16.

[Leewei]

1. various items that allow you to make a MBA at appropriate triggers (a tattoo which lets you MBA when you become bloodied, for example)
Does he have any of these, though? For that matter, the +3 Power bonus is only UENT. If the MBA takes place off-turn, the Rogue may well not have a turn before the effect ends.


2. Charge attacks.
Howling Strike for these. If he needs to move + charge, the rogue very likely won't be in position to enjoy the +3 Power bonus. Better yet, get one of the very common Barbarian Encounter powers that does 3+[W] on a charge.


3. Allies granting MBA.
Here, you may have something. As GPuzzle mentions below your post, a lot of this boils down to how many MBAs the character will get in an encounter. The only reliable one I know of from what I've read here is Battle Awareness -- which he's picking up. Until he's swimming in granted MBAs, though, this isn't optimal. Probably not even then.

Mark of Victory and Divine Favor are both dailies, but fairly optimal, and last an entire encounter. These are far from the only things that grant Power bonuses to attacks. They're just a couple I was able to rattle off. If, as you said, there are other Leaders in the group, the +3 Power bonus, when a companion can use it, is very likely going to not work well with some great Leader powers.

In my mind, there are three considerations. First, the number of non-Standard Action MBAs he can get (assuming 1/encounter). Second, the prevalence of Power bonuses to attack rolls (assuming very prevalent with leaders). Last, can an ally of his exploit a +3 Power bonus to attacks before it goes away (off-turn MBAs will only trigger with the rogue able to act on them around half of the time)? The OP has many feat options that are very effective and not constrained by these.

In short, he's granting an ally an average of less than +1 to attacks per round with a feat, even if he's getting a MBA every other round. Meh.

[GPuzzle]

Actually, I'd say that Power of Skill is the better choice here. Most of the times it just requires that your Rogue goes before you, which should happen most of the time.

[tcrudisi]

Does he have any of these, though? For that matter, the +3 Power bonus is only UENT. If the MBA takes place off-turn, the Rogue may well not have a turn before the effect ends.

They are very easy to get and tend to be heroic-tier.



Howling Strike for these. If he needs to move + charge, the rogue very likely won't be in position to enjoy the +3 Power bonus. Better yet, get one of the very common Barbarian Encounter powers that does 3+[W] on a charge.

I did mention that he'd lose +1/+2/+3d6 (depending on tier). But - that's sometimes a great option. I'd sacrifice 1d6 damage if my Rogue ally is going to nova for 3-4 attacks on his turn. Or the wizard is going to cast an encounter-ending daily. Or, or, or. My point is that it's yet another option.


Here, you may have something. As GPuzzle mentions below your post, a lot of this boils down to how many MBAs the character will get in an encounter. The only reliable one I know of from what I've read here is Battle Awareness -- which he's picking up. Until he's swimming in granted MBAs, though, this isn't optimal. Probably not even then.

If built toward it? Several an encounter that occur as immediate/opportunity actions, so they aren't eating up your normal attacks. If not built toward it? Meh, then not as worth it, obviously.


In short, he's granting an ally an average of less than +1 to attacks per round with a feat, even if he's getting a MBA every other round. Meh.

Possibly - and if so, it's not worth it. However, if he has items, powers, and allies that give him MBAs every turn? Then it's one of the top feats he can take. Since we don't know much about his party make-up, this feat needs to be addressed as either "the best feat that you've not yet taken" or "possibly a poor choice". But that is the beauty of 4e - he can always retrain if he finds that its not as useful as he likes. And it could always end up being a poor choice now and a great choice in 5 levels as his gear evolves and his party gets synergistic powers.

[DragonBaneDM]

So here's what's up!

I have two ways of generating MBAs for myself currently: my fighter multiclass feat and my Rampage class feature.

My leaders are a Bear Shaman and a Sentinel Druid. They don't do anything in the way of granting me MBAs, nor do I think they will in the near future.

However, I have two grandmaster trainings that pimp out my MBAs a bit. One lets me deal 5 damage to every enemy adjacent to my target, another lets me hold an ally's arcane at will power in my MBA and unleash it's effect alongside the MBA. These are both dailies right now, but if I use them 3 times they become encounters. 3 times after that and they're at wills. I'm also planning on getting more, I tend to learn one any time we're in a friendly city for a while.

I plan on granting myself more as we go along. This very well might be a Paragon Tier Feat. I'm taking Lightning Cheese, Dust Storm Assault, and Impaling Spear come those levels, so my MBAs become good an important. This might be icing?

I'm also going Paragon of Victory, which grants me a free cleric at-will. Will that still let me use the power as an MBA and benefit from my feats/training?

To shorten it, my MBAs aren't great or plentiful right now, but they will be in the next tier. So I might want to hold back on this, I'm just not sure. TD, now that I've laid out a bit more of my build and party layout, what do you think? Leewei, do you think I have a strong enough case for taking it now that you have a bit more info?

[Leewei]

Given the grandmaster training, Power of Skill now makes a lot of sense. You can even justify using a MBA as a Standard Action in order to get those powers down to At-Will.

That said, regarding off-turn MBAs with Power of Skill:

The effect lasts UENT, so the initiative order of the rogue and barb/cleric actually isn't important. What is important is whether the MBA occurs at a time when the rogue can exploit it.

Assume the rogue goes first. He acts, then an enemy adjacent to the barb/cleric attacks him, triggering Battle Awareness's MBA. Righteous Brand provides a +3 Power bonus to the rogues next attack, but the effect only lasts until the end of the barb/cleric's next turn -- which arrives before the rogue can act again.

If the trigger happens after the barb/cleric's turn, the rogue can exploit it.

If the barb/cleric went first, the MBA would still provide no benefit following the rogue's turn until the end of the barb/cleric's next turn.

Either character could delay in order to make this work better, but delay is often a tactically poor choice. Better to act sooner and take out enemies earlier in most situations. It boils down to luck, really, and the odds of a benefit to the rogue from an off-turn MBA look about 50/50.

[DragonBaneDM]

I see! So what I'm going to be aware of is giving this ability to my other melee companions. My Shaman could use it for his "Melee Spirit 1" attacks, the SwordLock may occasionally close to melee, and the Druid has an animal companion (and is thinking of switching to Lifespirit Warden soon).

I'll be aware of when certain allies can benefit from out of turn Righteous Brands and when they can't.

[Leewei]

Exactly. Grant the bonus to any ally that can melee attack your target before your next turn arrives.

[DragonBaneDM]

Cool, so I'm picking up Power of Skill, that, at least, seems settled. Any more advice on what my retrain for Toughness should be, or should I just skim your above posts?

[Leewei]

Give the various Hybrid Talent feats a good, close look. There's bound to be something nice there for you.

[GPuzzle]

I'm a fan of either Channel Divinity for a reroll or either Thaneborn Triumph or Rageblood Vigor for the bonuses. Thaneborn synergizes more, though.