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torrasque666
2015-11-02, 12:32 PM
I've got a Warlock build going but I can't decide on the race. I'm currently juggling between Chaond, Hellbred (Spirit-Scourged), Catfolk, or Air Mephling. I have an aversion to playing the same race twice in a campaign if its one of the more "uncommon" ones (and given that we are currently in Published Greyhawk they..... all kinda are.) so if one of these would be better used for a different concept, feel free to let me know.

Stat rolls are 12, 15, 13, 14, 12, 12.

Troacctid
2015-11-02, 12:53 PM
Level adjustments are pretty crippling for Warlocks, so of those, I would say Hellbred, although truth be told none of them are especially well-suited for Warlockery.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 12:56 PM
Level adjustments are pretty crippling for Warlocks, so of those, I would say Hellbred, although truth be told none of them are especially well-suited for Warlockery.
Assume Level Adjustment isn't an issue. Because for our group its not. LA is automatically knocked off at the appropriate levels, as per the chart here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

Though in that case, what kind of race would you advise? I don't want to go Daelkyr Half-Blood as I'm saving that for a future character, and I'm not a fan of Oriental Adventures, or Dragon Magazine.

nerghull
2015-11-02, 12:59 PM
Pixie, dragonborn vaillant halfling, Saint [whatever]. Or hellbred.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 01:02 PM
Pixie, dragonborn vaillant halfling, Saint [whatever]. Or hellbred.
What in the nine hells is a vailant halfling?

ZamielVanWeber
2015-11-02, 01:04 PM
I would recommend strongheart halfling or another small race. The bonus to hit and to AC are good, the bonus feat from strongheart halfling is good, and the loss of damage from the strength penalty and size decrease don't apply to Eldrith blast.

atemu1234
2015-11-02, 01:05 PM
What in the nine hells is a vailant halfling?

Maybe it's supposed to be Valiant?

How about Sparrow Hengeyokai?

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 01:06 PM
Maybe it's supposed to be Valiant?
Still doesn't answer my question.

How about Sparrow Hengeyokai?
See above for distaste of OA.

Troacctid
2015-11-02, 01:14 PM
With LA buyoff, Half-Fey is a legitimate consideration (especially if you want to use Charisma), as is Mulhorandi Divine Minion (most likely applied to Aasimar or Tiefling) or Phrenic. I usually favor a template over a level-adjusted race. Human, Strongheart Halfling, Water Halfling, Raptoran, Illumian, Warforged, and Warforged Scout are some of my top base races for Warlock.

Edit: Oh, or Shadow, that's a fantastic template. Very powerful with the Darkness invocation.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-11-02, 01:14 PM
I think he meant variant halfling. That is what I recommended though, so I could be biased.

atemu1234
2015-11-02, 01:23 PM
Was it unseelie fey that grants a flight speed for LA +0? Be an Unseelie Fey Dragonborn Hellbred with the Darkvision thingamabob. Refluff the warlock kamehameha Eldritch Blast as a breath weapon.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 01:23 PM
With LA buyoff, Half-Fey is a legitimate consideration (especially if you want to use Charisma), as is Mulhorandi Divine Minion (most likely applied to Aasimar or Tiefling) or Phrenic. I usually favor a template over a level-adjusted race. Human, Strongheart Halfling, Water Halfling, Raptoran, Illumian, Warforged, and Warforged Scout are some of my top base races for Warlock.

Edit: Oh, or Shadow, that's a fantastic template. Very powerful with the Darkness invocation.
We're currently level 4. So if I have anything higher than +1, I have the full effect of the LA. sooo lets try to keep the LA low.


Was it unseelie fey that grants a flight speed for LA +0? Be an Unseelie Fey Dragonborn Hellbred with the Darkvision thingamabob. Refluff the warlock kamehameha Eldritch Blast as a breath weapon.
I.... no. Again, hatred of Dragon Magazine content, doesn't matter that it made it into the Dragon Compendium (as that was literally just an easier way for Paizo to get the articles to customers, and entice them to try and get the rest) Did you read my first two posts Atemu? Because you literally have only suggested things that I have stated I do not want.​

Ellowryn
2015-11-02, 01:30 PM
For a random good race try the tibbit from dragon compendium. Small size with the ability to shapechange to a tiny cat that launches eldritch hairballs.

Edit: Didn't see that you hate dragon compendium too. Seconding strongheart halfling then.

Troacctid
2015-11-02, 01:31 PM
Use the Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) to take just one "level" of Half-Fey and buy it off. Then when you can buy off the second level, take that too. Or don't. Just the first level is still pretty solid.

Mulhorandi Divine Minion is also only +1 LA when used with Neraph, or with the Savage Progression versions of Aasimar or Tiefling.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 01:36 PM
Use the Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) to take just one "level" of Half-Fey and buy it off. Then when you can buy off the second level, take that too. Or don't. Just the first level is still pretty solid.

Mulhorandi Divine Minion is also only +1 LA when used with Neraph, or with the Savage Progression versions of Aasimar or Tiefling.
Lets try to avoid Savage Progressions from here on out. I'm aware that other people like the whole "can take one level and then take another later, or not at all" bits, but I feel that's cheating, on a personal level.

Also, not seeing the big deal on Divine Minion (also trying to avoid things that are explicitly setting specific, which the Mulhorandi are. And before you say "reflavoring" I'm not going to hash out an entire table for deities that's only going to be used once, maybe twice in the game.). Wild Shape is OK, but given that I'd be limited to one (four gods, for an LA+1), maybe two(one), and rarely three(one) forms I'm not seeing the good thing.

Troacctid
2015-11-02, 01:45 PM
That fast wild shape ability does some real work; you'd presumably go Nephthys to get the best form value. It lets you dump physical ability scores, provides flight, and I'm pretty sure it's basically fast healing infinity as well. You only really need two forms, although you can use cheese to get more, if you really want.

But if you just want ability score adjustments, Draconic Water Halfling is a lot like a better version of Catfolk. Maybe go with that.

nerghull
2015-11-02, 01:57 PM
It's strongheart yeah, the french term is "vaillant" which means valiant, I didn't bother to double check hence the confusion.

Vizzerdrix
2015-11-02, 04:25 PM
Primordial Giant with either half giant or Eneko. Then keep applying Return to Nature until you are small enough to ride in your party members.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 04:34 PM
Primordial Giant with either half giant or Eneko. Then keep applying Return to Nature until you are small enough to ride in your party members.
That....just no.... plus, its expensive as hell at level 4. That's almost all the gold I'd have to start with. Plus.... no.....

Chronos
2015-11-02, 04:37 PM
Even without the Smallest Giant Ever trick (which is RAW-valid but likely to get books thrown at you), a low-LA primordial giant is still pretty good for warlock. There's even a 0-LA giant race in Dragon Magazine (some sort of cyclops).

Vizzerdrix
2015-11-02, 04:45 PM
That....just no.... plus, its expensive as hell at level 4. That's almost all the gold I'd have to start with. Plus.... no.....

Then what about a flumpf? Everyone loves the flumpf.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 04:47 PM
Even without the Smallest Giant Ever trick (which is RAW-valid but likely to get books thrown at you), a low-LA primordial giant is still pretty good for warlock.Hmm.... still on the fence. Would give me +1 to my CL for my invocations and EB (and since we use some, but not all, of Troacctid's houserules, this is useful) and a free SLA and knowledge skill, but I really want to avoid a Dex penalty. My stats are already not stellar and I'd prefer to not wind up with a +1 in my attack stat.
There's even a 0-LA giant race in Dragon Magazine (some sort of cyclops). *points at earlier posts, detailing hatred of Dragon*

AmberVael
2015-11-02, 06:13 PM
What invocations are you choosing? Because your invocations makes a big difference in what you want from a race. Charisma bonuses are good if you want to focus on save based invocations, while it will be far less important if you focus on passive buffs and eldritch blast damage. Bonus feats are stellar if you plan to go for the normally feat heavy melee builds, as well as constitution (because that hit die will need some help for you to survive).

Mainly, whats your build plan?

IcarusWulfe
2015-11-02, 06:17 PM
Be a Warforged and get the Elderich Glaive blast shape. Congrats, you are now a Gundam, complete with beam sword:smallsmile:

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 06:32 PM
What invocations are you choosing? Because your invocations makes a big difference in what you want from a race. Charisma bonuses are good if you want to focus on save based invocations, while it will be far less important if you focus on passive buffs and eldritch blast damage. Bonus feats are stellar if you plan to go for the normally feat heavy melee builds, as well as constitution (because that hit die will need some help for you to survive).

Mainly, whats your build plan?
Ranged blasting with buff invocations, with a few debuffs on my blasting (sickened, blinded, etc)


Be a Warforged and get the Elderich Glaive blast shape. Congrats, you are now a Gundam, complete with beam sword:smallsmile:
To put it plainly......
****. That.
If I wanted to be a gundam, I'd be a gundam. Warforged are one of my favorite races, i got a good handle on them. I don't want to waste that race on a warlock. Add in the fact that people assume that Glaivelock is the only way to do melee outside of Clawlocks, and I hate presumptions, and you get a good idea on why I hate Eldritch Glaive.

AmberVael
2015-11-02, 06:51 PM
Okay then. Things to consider:

1) Smaller races have a lot to offer. They get a bonus to hit, they get a bonus to armor class, and you really don't care about lack of strength because you're not wielding a weapon. In addition, they're better at stealth which is great for sniping (and with invisibility and the proper blast shapes, you can definitely do the sniper deal).
2) Charisma is less important. While you don't want it to be bad, if you're focusing on eldritch blast debuffs then you both have a backup plan (damage) and you can also make up for a lower Charisma with the Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) feat.
3) Dexterity is good. More to hit, more armor class. Not that you're terribly worried about hitting with a touch attack, but hey, more never hurts.

With this in mind, probably don't go dragonborn like people are suggesting. Dragonborn can be a decent warlock option, but its best for a melee focused warlock who decides against a dexterity/finesse build. They benefit from the con and have only a minimal hit from the dex penalty.

The Strongheart Halfling that people have been suggesting is definitely an amazing choice for all the above reasons- it gets a dex bonus in exchange for a strength penalty (who cares?), it gets the small size attack and AC bonus, AND it gets a really shiny bonus feat (which you could just instantly stick into Ability Focus, as its one of the best choices for warlocks who want some eldritch blast debuffs at low levels). It can be found in the Forgotten Realms setting book, page 18.

If you want something weirder than the Strongheart Halfling, or just something freely available on the internet, how about the Air Goblin? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins) The upside is that it gets a +4 to its dexterity and is small size. The downside is -2 Con which isn't much fun, but if you're a sneaky git (and goblins are definitely sneaky gits) you can get away with it. Other benefits include a bonus to move silently (even more sneaky sniping!) darkvision, and not needing to breathe. Definitely a fun choice for a flying invisible sniper warlock.

If you reaaally want a Charisma bonus, then the best option is probably Lesser Aasimar, an Aasimar variant found in the back of the Player's Guide to Faerun. It doesn't have as much to offer as the Strongheart Halfling, but you don't take the nasty constitution penalty that all the other races that offer charisma bonuses incur, and it does have a number of tasty bonuses (like a wisdom bonus and no ability penalties, as well as some energy resistance). No LA on this version of the Aasimar.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 06:59 PM
Okay then. Things to consider:

1) Smaller races have a lot to offer. They get a bonus to hit, they get a bonus to armor class, and you really don't care about lack of strength because you're not wielding a weapon. In addition, they're better at stealth which is great for sniping (and with invisibility and the proper blast shapes, you can definitely do the sniper deal).
2) Charisma is less important. While you don't want it to be bad, if you're focusing on eldritch blast debuffs then you both have a backup plan (damage) and you can also make up for a lower Charisma with the Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) feat.
3) Dexterity is good. More to hit, more armor class. Not that you're terribly worried about hitting with a touch attack, but hey, more never hurts.

With this in mind, probably don't go dragonborn like people are suggesting. Dragonborn can be a decent warlock option, but its best for a melee focused warlock who decides against a dexterity/finesse build. They benefit from the con and have only a minimal hit from the dex penalty.

The Strongheart Halfling that people have been suggesting is definitely an amazing choice for all the above reasons- it gets a dex bonus in exchange for a strength penalty (who cares?), it gets the small size attack and AC bonus, AND it gets a really shiny bonus feat (which you could just instantly stick into Ability Focus, as its one of the best choices for warlocks who want some eldritch blast debuffs at low levels). It can be found in the Forgotten Realms setting book, page 18.

If you want something weirder than the Strongheart Halfling, or just something freely available on the internet, how about the Air Goblin? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins) The upside is that it gets a +4 to its dexterity and is small size. The downside is -2 Con which isn't much fun, but if you're a sneaky git (and goblins are definitely sneaky gits) you can get away with it. Other benefits include a bonus to move silently (even more sneaky sniping!) darkvision, and not needing to breathe. Definitely a fun choice for a flying invisible sniper warlock.

If you reaaally want a Charisma bonus, then the best option is probably Lesser Aasimar, an Aasimar variant found in the back of the Player's Guide to Faerun. It doesn't have as much to offer as the Strongheart Halfling, but you don't take the nasty constitution penalty that all the other races that offer charisma bonuses incur, and it does have a number of tasty bonuses (like a wisdom bonus and no ability penalties, as well as some energy resistance). No LA on this version of the Aasimar.
Thank you. This is probably the most comprehensible advice I've been given so far. Air Goblin sounds nice. Weird, benefit to Dex. Its definitely up there with Draconic Water Halfling (which I'm 90% sure can't be combined with Strongheart, given that it keeps referring to the "standard" halfling, which I take to mean Lightfoot). I was possibly considering dipping incarnate for some bonuses to ranged attack and damage, possibly even going into Soulcaster (which due to houserules, Warlock qualifies for) but the size change should make up for that.

Troacctid
2015-11-02, 07:15 PM
Draconic Strongheart Halfling is also quite good, of course, and it would be a good addition to Air Goblin as well if you went that route.

Me, though, I generally place a high premium on races that "save" you invocations. This is why I like Half-Fey, Raptoran, Dragonborn, Divine Minion, and the like. Getting flight or Charm Person or whatever as a racial ability is like getting an extra lesser invocation, which, considering how valuable lesser invocations are, is huge. If you are planning to take Fell Flight as a lesser, I would strongly recommend seeing if you can get it from your race instead. (Air Mephling gets flight, which is actually nice, but the -2 Int is very painful on a skill-starved Warlock, so I'm not a fan.)

AmberVael
2015-11-02, 07:25 PM
Honestly, a Dragonborn Air Goblin might be pretty good. You do lose 2 dex, but that leaves you with -2 Str, +2 Dex as a statline which is entirely fine (boo to losing dex, yay to gaining con), and you end up with wings. So I guess it depends on whether you'd rather have Flight later on down the line or MORE DEX.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 07:35 PM
Honestly, a Dragonborn Air Goblin might be pretty good. You do lose 2 dex, but that leaves you with -2 Str, +2 Dex as a statline which is entirely fine (boo to losing dex, yay to gaining con), and you end up with wings. So I guess it depends on whether you'd rather have Flight later on down the line or MORE DEX.
Hmmm... (Ex) flight would free up an invocation for me. And would cause me to bring some morality balancing to my party.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-11-02, 08:43 PM
I'm going to recommend Primordial Giant on a Cyclopean from Dragon 323 p94. It's medium size and LA +0, the Menta Cyclopean would have Str -4, Dex -2, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +4, the Feral-Kind Cyclopean would have Str -2, Dex -2, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +4, plus all the Primordial Giant traits and the minor Cyclopean traits in both cases. Keep in mind that Primordial Giant gets +1 caster level for spell-like abilities, including invocations, and can use Invisibility at will. The Feral-Kind gets +1 initiative and Dex saves from his Glimpse of the Future ability, but both versions have -2 to ranged attack rolls due to poor depth perception. You'll still have very reliable ranged attacks due to making touch attacks, and it will make a decently useful muscle-mage-style character.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 08:50 PM
I'm going to recommend Primordial Giant on a Cyclopean from Dragon 323 p94. It's medium size and LA +0, the Menta Cyclopean would have Str -4, Dex -2, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +4, the Feral-Kind Cyclopean would have Str -2, Dex -2, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +4, plus all the Primordial Giant traits and the minor Cyclopean traits in both cases. Keep in mind that Primordial Giant gets +1 caster level for spell-like abilities, including invocations, and can use Invisibility at will. The Feral-Kind gets +1 initiative and Dex saves from his Glimpse of the Future ability, but both versions have -2 to ranged attack rolls due to poor depth perception. You'll still have very reliable ranged attacks due to making touch attacks, and it will make a decently useful muscle-mage-style character.
You have missed literally every time I have mentioned that I refuse to use Dragon haven't you? Literally.

Zombulian
2015-11-02, 09:31 PM
Primordial Giant with either half giant or Eneko. Then keep applying Return to Nature until you are small enough to ride in your party members.

This one. I was gonna say dis.
If your DM is cool with it, you could use the Half-Giant level progression from ComPsi and just never take the second half of it, losing out on all of the Half-Giant goodies that don't matter for a Warlock anyhow and giving you LA+0

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-11-02, 09:37 PM
Wispling from FF, infernal halfling type. -2ST +4DX +2IN and Alter Self
Air Mephling from Planar Handbook +1LA -2IN +2CH +2DX, small, and flight!

atemu1234
2015-11-02, 09:43 PM
Wispling from FF, infernal halfling type. -2ST +4DX +2IN and Alter Self
Air Mephling from Planar Handbook +1LA -2IN +2CH +2DX, small, and flight!

Also relevant - Is LA buyoff allowed?

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 09:48 PM
Also relevant - Is LA buyoff allowed?
See this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20025612&postcount=3)

Rakoa
2015-11-02, 09:55 PM
I gotta say I really love the way torrasque666 treats people who are trying to help him. Very entitled, no? Yes, I do read what you post. I can't say I like it.

Rubik
2015-11-02, 09:57 PM
A Dragonwrought RotD kobold (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) using a racial variant of your choice (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm). Add the dark creature template and/or necropolitan for more fun.

Kobolds have all sorts of fun racial stuff you can play around with, especially since Dragonwrought gives you the dragon type. Everything from counting as Tiny sized to spending a feat on wings to using your tail for special attacks to dragon psychoses and archetypes. There are a lot of ways to take this. Heck, you can DCFS away your kobold bonus feats to grab Human Heritage and Jotunbrud to count as Dragon, Humanoid (Human), Undead, Tiny, and Large all at the same time.

Ellowryn
2015-11-02, 09:59 PM
I gotta say I really love the way torrasque666 treats people who are trying to help him. Very entitled, no? Yes, I do read what you post. I can't say I like it.

As much fun as it is seeing his head explode, in his defense he posted like 6 times that he won't use dragon magazine stuff and people keep posting to use it.

And yes, he is getting a little snippy.

Zombulian
2015-11-02, 10:00 PM
I gotta say I really love the way torrasque666 treats people who are trying to help him. Very entitled, no? Yes, I do read what you post. I can't say I like it.

To be entirely fair it's his thread and people aren't reading his posts which are in fact very relevant to their answers.

torrasque666
2015-11-02, 10:20 PM
I gotta say I really love the way torrasque666 treats people who are trying to help him. Very entitled, no? Yes, I do read what you post. I can't say I like it.
.... I will admit my last response to atemu was unwarranted. But the Dragon suggestions.... its not even something like "(random choice)Libris Mortis is banned/not available/not in use." "Oh hey, necropolitan would be great for this!" completely forgetting/not knowing (the source) to mention that its from the banned source material. its more like "Libris Mortis is not available/banned/not in use" "Oh hey, you should use this thing from Libris Mortis, necropolitan!" In one case, its possible that it slipped their mind. In the other.... I just don't have words for that.

atemu1234
2015-11-02, 10:43 PM
.... I will admit my last response to atemu was unwarranted. But the Dragon suggestions.... its not even something like "(random choice)Libris Mortis is banned/not available/not in use." "Oh hey, necropolitan would be great for this!" completely forgetting/not knowing (the source) to mention that its from the banned source material. its more like "Libris Mortis is not available/banned/not in use" "Oh hey, you should use this thing from Libris Mortis, necropolitan!" In one case, its possible that it slipped their mind. In the other.... I just don't have words for that.

In my defense, I've seen Dragon Compendium available in a lot of campaigns where DragMag is banned.

As to Hengeyokai, they deserve a mention for a valid point we all should consider:

This thread is on the internet. While I intend to help the OP as much as I can, this thread may later be read by someone else who doesn't share your distaste. For whom the suggestion may be useful.


As much fun as it is seeing his head explode, in his defense he posted like 6 times that he won't use dragon magazine stuff and people keep posting to use it.

And yes, he is getting a little snippy.

He's been snippy since he first mentioned he dislikes Dragon Magazine and Oriental Adventures.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-11-02, 11:03 PM
You have missed literally every time I have mentioned that I refuse to use Dragon haven't you? Literally.

My apologies, it's a bit of a long thread and I only skimmed it for what was already suggested. I happen to be a big fan of muscle-mages and tend to recommend those first. Unfortunately the other best choice for that would be Primordial Half-Giant, which has a Dex penalty which you find disagreeable.

Given your disposition toward those things, allow me to make a recommendation that you may find appealing:

Forestlord Elf from Dragon Magic, which always has Hide as a class skill, applied to a Wild Elf from the Monster Manual, which is just more fitting than putting it on a standard Elf. Add on the Dark Creature template in Tome of Magic for your +1 LA to get Hide in Plain Sight (which is redundant) and huge stealth bonuses, among other benefits, plus it's very fitting. Take the Darkness invocation, plus the Blend Into Shadows feat in Drow of the Underdark, which enables you to make a hide check as a swift action every round as long as you're in an area of magical darkness. You can now use Eldritch Blast or another invocation, make a hide check, and move to another spot every round.

Get an Elvencraft (Composite) Longbow with three wand chambers, and put a Wand of Camouflage and a Dorje of Chameleon in it and UMD those to get +20 to hide for 10 minutes at a time, which makes up for the sniping penalty. Put a small piece of carved wood or bone on a string or chain around your neck, put Unguent of Timelessness on that object, and hire an NPC spellcaster to put Heightened (9th) Greater Rod of Extended (effectively 10th spell level) Deeper Darkness at a caster level of 20th on it. At the standard rate (spell level 10 x caster level 20 x 10 gp) that should only cost 2,000 gp, and it would normally last 40 days but with Unguent of Timelessness on the object it's cast on it should last twenty years. Hold the pendant in your mouth to block the darkness effect, you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out and it will fall back into place against your chest. Only a light spell of 9th level or higher can cancel out that darkness effect. If you want to see in magical darkness you can get the Devil's Sight invocation, or pick up Planar Touchstone for Catalogues of Enlightenment to get the Baator domain.

torrasque666
2015-11-03, 01:49 AM
As much as I want to call Biff's suggestion overkill, it's probably one of the tamer things I've seen them recommend. I don't think it's for me, but I do appreciate the idea.

As for the Hengenyokai.... I'll consider it. I'm not a fan of shapeshifting in general, but I will admit the idea of a tiny bird flying around shooting laser beams is a funny one.

Troacctid
2015-11-03, 01:55 AM
If you can only go Hengeyokai once, Warlock is more or less the perfect class to do it with, for whatever that's worth.

torrasque666
2015-11-03, 02:07 AM
If you can only go Hengeyokai once, Warlock is more or less the perfect class to do it with, for whatever that's worth.

Honestly, I might. Stat mods aren't the most important thing to this guy. He was originally built as a DHB, but he only got like 5 minutes of play and I wanted to use that race for something else, so I got the ok to change his race.

I mean, the restriction on unique or rare races is a personal one, not one imposed by the DM. I lose immersion if I play races that are more uncommon repeatedly.

nedz
2015-11-03, 06:54 AM
What Warlocks lack are options so I favour races which give you more options.

Gnome, especially Whisper, gives you small size and a few SLAs. Now the SLAs are not stellar, but they are useful.

Half-Fey gives you lots of enchantment type SLAs and also flight. Enchantment type SLAs don't always work, but they are effective when they do.

Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend are also good, but LA+4 is a bit too much.

Most of the other interesting races, from this PoV, are from DM so I won't mention them.

atemu1234
2015-11-03, 09:34 AM
Still, you can never go wrong with plain old human.

Lesser Aasimar is good.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-11-03, 10:12 AM
If you're more concerned about ability score bonuses than anything else, your original inclination toward Catfolk is probably going to be the most ideal choice.

If you intend to dip Incarnate, consider using an incarnum race such as Azurin or Rilkan.

If you just want something that's wildly different from anything you've played before, but has agreeable stats and special abilities, maybe a Forestkith Goblin (MM3, climb speed!) or something like a Warforged Scout with Draconic, Phrenic, and Incarnate Construct (+1 LA total, get Mithril Body).

If you're looking for something that has unique/useful/cool abilities beyond what a warlock can normally do, like make a hide check every round and snipe like a boss, then there are ways of combining a bunch of independently mediocre things to form a powerful whole to accomplish something like that.

What would appeal to you the most?

torrasque666
2015-11-03, 10:20 AM
If you're more concerned about ability score bonuses than anything else, your original inclination toward Catfolk is probably going to be the most ideal choice.

If you intend to dip Incarnate, consider using an incarnum race such as Azurin or Rilkan.

If you just want something that's wildly different from anything you've played before, but has agreeable stats and special abilities, maybe a Forestkith Goblin (MM3, climb speed!) or something like a Warforged Scout with Draconic, Phrenic, and Incarnate Construct (+1 LA total, get Mithril Body).

If you're looking for something that has unique/useful/cool abilities beyond what a warlock can normally do, like make a hide check every round and snipe like a boss, then there are ways of combining a bunch of independently mediocre things to form a powerful whole to accomplish something like that.

What would appeal to you the most?
Honestly, I was looking for something different and weird. I think I'll probably use that Warforged Scout idea. Interesting enough, and still not really a Warforged, so I'll be free to use it later. Thanks for the idea.

xyianth
2015-11-04, 12:56 PM
One of my favorite tricks with warlocks is to play as a glimmerskin halfling (DrM). They are basically a normal lightfoot halfling except they are dragonblood subtyped and trade the move silently bonus for the ability to have the heal skill always count as a class skill for them. The trick is to take the least dragonmark(mark of healing) feat at 1st or 3rd level and get 8 ranks in heal by level 5. As your 6th level, take a level in the nosomatic chirurgeon prestige class (Dmk) and select the mother cyst feat. (LM) This lets you cast inflict spells and cyst spells at-will as a supernatural ability by converting your at-will invocations via pestilential touch. This combo will continue to scale with your invocations. The cyst spells are the most useful, they provide scrying, damage, domination, and a massive buff(necrotic empowerment). The cyst spells are necromancy(evil) spells so this trick may not be compatible with your character concept or campaign.

You could further expand on this trick using the dragonsblood pool location (CM), the feats arcane preparation (CAr) and signature spell (PGtF), and the prestige classes sand shaper (Sand) and unseen seer (CM). I've put together a build that uses hellfire warlock and hunter's eye to acquire a 18d6 eldritch blast with 12d6 sneak attack based on this combo.

race: glimmerskin halfling
32pt: 10(8) str, 16(18) dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 14 cha
alignment: chaotic neutral
build: warlock 4/binder 1/nosomatic chirurgeon 1/ruathar 3/hellfire warlock 3/sand shaper 1/nightmare spinner 1/mindbender 1/unseen seer 5
feats: least dragonmark(mark of healing), touchstone(city of the dead), mother cyst, arcane preparation, signature spell(necrotic cyst), mindsight, practiced spellcaster(warlock)
requires dragonsblood pool before level 9 and a runestaff/drake helm/knowstone containing phantasmal strangler before level 14
gets 63 at-will Su spells CL 20
gets invocations of a 17th level warlock (one must be hellrime blast or brimstone blast, another one must be charm)
gets 18d6 eldritch blast + 12d6 sneak attack (assumes one invocation used for vitriolic blast and access to items that boost eldritch blast and sneak attack)
gets 1 spell slot per spell level (1-9) usable only with illusion spells (use with runestaff) (+1 3rd level slot if dragonsblood pool is still active)
recommend a custom runestaff: ghost sound, silent image, mirror image, phantasmal strangler
skill points are extremely tight for most of the build, but 14 int is sufficient to meet all prerequisites

You can do this combo with any halfling, but without getting heal as a class skill, you wouldn't be able to enter nosomatic chirurgeon until 14th level.

Halflings have some other great options too. The luckstealer prestige class (RotW) is a fun one if you want to use invocations that rely on saves (noxious blast for example). The halfling whistler (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a) prestige class can give some interesting abilities while giving full advancement of invocations.

Race choice tends to be heavily dependent on what you want your character to be doing. Blasting and debuffing as a warlock usually means you want to be a race with bonuses to dexterity and/or charisma, but the different prestige classes out there can also greatly influence your decision. If you are leaning towards incarnum use, both Azurins and Dusklings can be good options. I would not recommend hengeyokai since they are LA+1 unless you use the Dragon Magazine update to them and you would still need the Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species to use your invocations while in animal form since invocations require somatic components. (Honestly, the sparrow hengeyokai trick works better for psionics than invocations) Air goblins can work, but goblins get virtually no support as a PC race.

Hopefully this helps.

Ellowryn
2015-11-04, 02:29 PM
One of my favorite tricks with warlocks is to play as a glimmerskin halfling (DrM). They are basically a normal lightfoot halfling except they are dragonblood subtyped and trade the move silently bonus for the ability to have the heal skill always count as a class skill for them. The trick is to take the least dragonmark(mark of healing) feat at 1st or 3rd level and get 8 ranks in heal by level 5. As your 6th level, take a level in the nosomatic chirurgeon prestige class (Dmk) and select the mother cyst feat. (LM) This lets you cast inflict spells and cyst spells at-will as a supernatural ability by converting your at-will invocations via pestilential touch. This combo will continue to scale with your invocations. The cyst spells are the most useful, they provide scrying, damage, domination, and a massive buff(necrotic empowerment). The cyst spells are necromancy(evil) spells so this trick may not be compatible with your character concept or campaign.

You could further expand on this trick using the dragonsblood pool location (CM), the feats arcane preparation (CAr) and signature spell (PGtF), and the prestige classes sand shaper (Sand) and unseen seer (CM). I've put together a build that uses hellfire warlock and hunter's eye to acquire a 18d6 eldritch blast with 12d6 sneak attack based on this combo.

race: glimmerskin halfling
32pt: 10(8) str, 16(18) dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 14 cha
alignment: chaotic neutral
build: warlock 4/binder 1/nosomatic chirurgeon 1/ruathar 3/hellfire warlock 3/sand shaper 1/nightmare spinner 1/mindbender 1/unseen seer 5
feats: least dragonmark(mark of healing), touchstone(city of the dead), mother cyst, arcane preparation, signature spell(necrotic cyst), mindsight, practiced spellcaster(warlock)
requires dragonsblood pool before level 9 and a runestaff/drake helm/knowstone containing phantasmal strangler before level 14
gets 63 at-will Su spells CL 20
gets invocations of a 17th level warlock (one must be hellrime blast or brimstone blast, another one must be charm)
gets 18d6 eldritch blast + 12d6 sneak attack (assumes one invocation used for vitriolic blast and access to items that boost eldritch blast and sneak attack)
gets 1 spell slot per spell level (1-9) usable only with illusion spells (use with runestaff) (+1 3rd level slot if dragonsblood pool is still active)
recommend a custom runestaff: ghost sound, silent image, mirror image, phantasmal strangler
skill points are extremely tight for most of the build, but 14 int is sufficient to meet all prerequisites

You can do this combo with any halfling, but without getting heal as a class skill, you wouldn't be able to enter nosomatic chirurgeon until 14th level.

This, this is an awesome trick, but i have a few questions. Why arcane preparation and signature spell? And how are you getting signature spell without spell mastery? Are you taking the Ruathar PrC for the skillpoints?

xyianth
2015-11-04, 10:20 PM
This, this is an awesome trick, but i have a few questions. Why arcane preparation and signature spell? And how are you getting signature spell without spell mastery? Are you taking the Ruathar PrC for the skillpoints?

I don't want to derail this thread, so I will answer your questions in a spoiler.
The trick is a long chain of RAW quirks. To explain any part of it, I have to explain all of it. Basically, the trick works like this:

Warlock invocations are at-will SLAs
Nosomatic Chirurgeon's pestilential touch ability is a supernatural ability that allows you to lose a use of an SLA to cast an inflict spell of equal level.

The spells are not arcane or divine
The ability does not grant you a list of spells, spell slots, or spells/day
The ability does not specify the caster level of these spells, and so it defaults to character level
You do not know the inflict spells, but you can cast them without knowing them

Mother cyst adds 10 spells that you can cast like any other spell you can cast. It further specifies that "if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell." This does not apply yet, but keep it in mind.
A dragonsblood pool grants an arcane spell slot up to 3rd level so long as you can cast spells. You can cast spells, so you gain the slot. You cannot do anything with the slot though.
Arcane preparation requires that you cast spells without preparation, which you do. It allows you to prepare any spell you know in one of your spell slots. You have a slot from the dragonsblood pool. You are now a caster that can prepare spells. Mother cyst allows you to prepare any cyst spell as if you had the spell mastery feat. Spell mastery only applies to spells you know. You therefore know the cyst spells and have the spell mastery feat for each of them. You still can't cast them from the slot though.
Signature Spell requires the spell mastery feat and allows you to convert a prepared arcane spell into your signature spell as a cleric does for cure/inflict spells. This inadvertantly gives you the ability to cast your signature spell using your spell slot. (even though you couldn't cast the prepared spell) At this point you meet all the criteria for counting as a spontaneous caster according to the Rules Compendium.
Sand Shaper's desert insight ability states: "If you are a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer), these spells are available to you like any other spell you know." You know the mother cyst spells and can cast them via pestilential touch. You can therefore cast all of the sand shaper spells via pestilential touch. Additionally, you now have a list of spells.
Unseen Seer's advanced learning ability states: "Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list." You have a list thanks to sand shaper. All the spells on that list can be cast via pestilential touch. You can therefore add divination spells to the list of spells to cast via pestilential touch.
You have spell slots (well 1 slot anyway) and you are a spontaneous caster. You can therefore use a runestaff to cast a spell on the runestaff by expending a spell slot. Grabbing a runestaff with phantasmal strangler on it means you can cast a fear spell and an illusion spell of at least 3rd level. You can therefore qualify for Nightmare Spinner.
Nightmare Spinner's bonus spells ability grants you an additional spell slot of each spell level you can cast. You can cast 9th level spells via losing a use of dark foresight and casting a spell via pestilential touch. You therefore gain an extra slot of each spell level 1-9. Unlike the dragonsblood pool slot, these don't vanish after a year. This ensures the rest of the trick still functions after the year is up. It also grants you additional slots for use with a runestaff.

As for Ruathar, yes that is used to gain a good skill list and extra skill points. You could use other classes if you choose, but Ruathar is full casting, easy to qualify for, grants 6+int skill points, and has all the skills needed as class skills. The abilities are mostly useless, but they aren't bad as a side bonus. Additionally, I like to ensure I have enough skill points to get 23 ranks in spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) by 20th level. That way, if epic happens, you fully qualify for epic spellcasting at 21st level. Unlike most casters, concentration isn't really needed for this build. Your spells are cast via an Su ability, and therefore don't provoke AoOs. It is useful for invocations though, but you can just use pestilential touch in situations where concentration would be needed.

Fundamentally, none of this trick is RAI, and as such will require explicit DM approval for use in an actual game. From a purely RAW perspective though, the weakest part is qualifying for signature spell via mother cyst.