Don't Rebuke Me Too!

[Wolfepuppy]

So me and my friends are looking at starting up another campaign. In particular, 3 of us are going to be necromantically inclined. Yes yes, I know that we are going to be severely lacking in certain aspects, but it sounds fun to be super evil for a change. Anyway, the three of us have decided to be: Me, a dread necromancer, friend a, a dread necromancer, and friend b, a cleric, likely specializing with the death or some other death related domain. And yes again, not the best combination for a group. We do have two other players that have yet to fully decide their role in the party too. So anyway, I am so inclined to be a necropolitan, due to obvious advantages that the class will help with. However, I'm curious how me and my friends rebuking will work. We will all likely have undead that we control, so is there anyway to stop our rebuking from affecting each others undead. And more importantly, for their rebuking to not affect me in particular, as I will be an undead creature? Thank you in advance!

[Spore]

Ask your DM if you can Pathfinder's Selective Channeling to your Rebuke.

[Rubik]

Human Heritage makes you count as Humanoid (Human), meaning you won't have to worry about anything that specifically affects undead, including turning and rebuking.

[nedz]

Human Heritage makes you count as Humanoid (Human), meaning you won't have to worry about anything that specifically affects undead, including turning and rebuking.

Nice trick, but do you still qualify for Human Heritage ?

[Rubik]

Nice trick, but do you still qualify for Human Heritage ?Does your body or soul have a human somewhere in its ancestry? If so, yes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Does your body or soul have a human somewhere in its ancestry? If so, yes.

No. The feat explicitly references the sidebar on half-human and humanlike races to determine which races qualify. Undead that were made from humans are not among them.

[Rubik]

No. The feat explicitly references the sidebar on half-human and humanlike races to determine which races qualify. Undead that were made from humans are not among them.But the feat itself doesn't say anything of the sort, and if you are descended from a human, you still qualify, undead or otherwise.

[nedz]

But the feat itself doesn't say anything of the sort, and if you are descended from a human, you still qualify, undead or otherwise.

The feat says

Half-human race or human-descended race
As an undead you are not even of the right type to have any such race, even if that were true before you took the template.

[sleepyphoenixx]

But the feat itself doesn't say anything of the sort, and if you are descended from a human, you still qualify, undead or otherwise.

It tells you to look at the sidebar right under the "special" line. Just because it's not under "prerequisites" doesn't make it any less applicable.

[Rubik]

The feat says

As an undead you are not even of the right type to have any such race, even if that were true before you took the template.Your race is whatever kind of creature you are, and if it is descended from a human, then you are of a human-descended race. Elves, for instance, can be descended from a human if one of their parents or grandparents was a half-elf, even if they are, mechanically, an elf (with only mild human characteristics giving their heritage away), just as a human can have an elf in his ancestry and only show it through odd coloration, a narrow face, and slightly pointed ears. If you were human (or were likewise descended from a human) before becoming undead, you're still of a human-descended race, as you came from human stock, no matter how far back or what the circumstances might be. Note that it doesn't require the [human] subtype, just that you be "from a human-descended race," which is purely fluff, since there a lot of creatures out there can interbreed with humans freely and yet not have the Humanoid type.


It tells you to look at the sidebar right under the "special" line. Just because it's not under "prerequisites" doesn't make it any less applicable.There are a lot of "human descended races" that aren't of the Humanoid type but are still descended from humans. Changelings, for instance, or dragons descended from half-dragons which are, at first glance, not human at all, such as a Dragonwrought kobold whose ancestry includes a half-dragon human.


Even ignoring that the feat can only be taken at first level. You can't be a Necropolitan before selecting your first level feats.But you can take Human Heritage prior to becoming necropolitan. You'll still have the feat (and thus the effects thereof), even if you change type later.

[nedz]

There is a slight dysfunction here in that Race is not clearly defined by RAW; but, Human is of the Humanoid Type and Necropolitan is of the Undead type. So, clearly, your race is no longer Human.

Since you claimed that Your race is whatever kind of creature you are then under this interpretation you cannot have Human Heritage.

But you can take Human Heritage prior to becoming necropolitan. You'll still have the feat (and thus the effects thereof), even if you change type later.
Er no, this is just a fallacy. If you have a feat for which you no longer qualify for then you no longer gain it's benefits: so it is irrelevant whether you took the feat before or after acquiring the Template.

[Chronos]

Did your parents ever cease to be human? No? Then you're human-descended.

Type is not a requirement for human descent, because a human with the half-dragon template is human-descended despite being of type dragon.

That said, it would be counterproductive here, since the whole reason to be a necropolitan is that you do want to be undead. A necropolitan with Human Heritage would have type Humanoid, and would retain all traits of their original type, which is also Humanoid.

[nedz]

Hmm, maybe we are arguing both sides of a dysfunction here ?

So you are an undead with Humanoid traits: so there are actually many issues.
E.g. Do you have a constitution ?

[Florian]

The way that is handled in PF is actually helpful here.
Basic 3.5, you switch creature type and thats basically it.
Pathfinder, you redefine creature type and mostly keep your old stuff. So you'b be an undead augmented humanoid (human).

As for using that feat, that's just semtantics as your DNA doesn't matter anymore after you made the switch in what creature type you are roght now. You stop being human then and it doesn't matter what your genes, parents or DNA say now.

[Necroticplague]

A Necropolitan Human is human-descended (from the non-necropolitan human that became the Necropolitan Human), thus they qualify for Human Heritage. This turns them into Humanoid (Human) with Undead traits.
Or, looking at it slightly differently, a Necropolitan Human is still of the Human race (just with a template), which is obviously human-descended. Thus qualify, despite their Undead type.

[Taveena]

Necropolitan would turn you into Undead (Augmented Humanoid, Human) wouldn't it?

[nolongerchaos]

Having seen Human Heritage suggested regularly as a solution to being turned, what then is the point of becoming undead as a Dread Necro, since I believe the general reason to go undead is for self-healing purposes?

[Zanos]

Having seen Human Heritage suggested regularly as a solution to being turned, what then is the point of becoming undead as a Dread Necro, since I believe the general reason to go undead is for self-healing purposes?
Human Heritage specifies that you retain traits common to a creature of your original type. Being healed by negative energy is part of that.

[nolongerchaos]

Human Heritage specifies that you retain traits common to a creature of your original type. Being healed by negative energy is part of that.

Yes, but how does it actually accomplish the healing? Say I have a Human Heritage Necropolitan Dread Necro 5, as far as I'm aware, the only thing that identifies him as undead is his type, Undead. So if he casts Inflict Light Wounds...


Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.
So ILW checks my type, and hey, guess what I am undea—

You are treated as a humanoid... for the purpose of adjudicating all effects.
I mean if my DN is treated as a humanoid for the purposes of turning, why is he suddenly treated as undead now that it is beneficial for me, even though the RAW interpretation of "all effects" seems pretty clear?

[OldTrees1]

However, I'm curious how me and my friends rebuking will work. We will all likely have undead that we control, so is there anyway to stop our rebuking from affecting each others undead. And more importantly, for their rebuking to not affect me in particular, as I will be an undead creature? Thank you in advance!

Question: Why would you be in range of each other when you use Rebuke Undead to exert control over your minions?

[Werephilosopher]

Does your body or soul have a human somewhere in its ancestry?


Did your parents ever cease to be human? No? Then you're human-descended.


A Necropolitan Human is human-descended

This is all irrelevant. The feat does not require you be a "human-descended being," it requires you be of a "half-human race or human-descended race." It doesn't matter how many humans are in any particular elf's family tree; unless elves as a race evolved from humans, an elf can't take Human Heritage.


Or, looking at it slightly differently, a Necropolitan Human is still of the Human race (just with a template), which is obviously human-descended. Thus qualify, despite their Undead type.

This is correct. Becoming a necropolitan doesn't make you not a human. The example statblock even says "Necropolitan, 5th-Level Human Wizard".

[Necroticplague]

Yes, but how does it actually accomplish the healing? Say I have a Human Heritage Necropolitan Dread Necro 5, as far as I'm aware, the only thing that identifies him as undead is his type, Undead. So if he casts Inflict Light Wounds...


So ILW checks my type, and hey, guess what I am undea—

I mean if my DN is treated as a humanoid for the purposes of turning, why is he suddenly treated as undead now that it is beneficial for me, even though the RAW interpretation of "all effects" seems pretty clear?
Because Human Heritage also says you keep the traits of your previous type. And under Undead traits.....

Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.

As you keep undead traits, you keep the bolded portion. This, Negative Energy heals you. So you heal from ILW for the same reason you don't have to breathe, because both are a result of the Undead traits you possess.

[nolongerchaos]

Because Human Heritage also says you keep the traits of your previous type. And under Undead traits.....


As you keep undead traits, you keep the bolded portion. This, Negative Energy heals you. So you heal from ILW for the same reason you don't have to breathe, because both are a result of the Undead traits you possess.

Yes, I get to keep the trait. I understand that. What I would like to know is, how is my status as undead determined by the spells? Because even if I have a trait that says
Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. if whatever effect in question has to check my type to determine whether or not I am undead, then even though I have the Undead Type, that's not the answer that will be returned to the spell, turn check, etc.
Human Heritage makes me Humaniod for all purposes, full stop.

So yes, I have a trait that says creatures with the Undead Type heal via negative energy, and I have the Undead Type, but since I am always treated as the Humaniod Type, that trait doesn't seem to do much for me, unless something other than the Undead Type determines whether or not I am Undead.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is there anything other than Type that identifies something as Undead, because otherwise it seems my DN is S.O.L.

[Keltest]

Yes, I get to keep the trait. I understand that. What I would like to know is, how is my status as undead determined by the spells? Because even if I have a trait that says if whatever effect in question has to check my type to determine whether or not I am undead, then even though I have the Undead Type, that's not the answer that will be returned to the spell, turn check, etc.
Human Heritage makes me Humaniod for all purposes, full stop.

So yes, I have a trait that says creatures with the Undead Type heal via negative energy, and I have the Undead Type, but since I am always treated as the Humaniod Type, that trait doesn't seem to do much for me, unless something other than the Undead Type determines whether or not I am Undead.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is there anything other than Type that identifies something as Undead, because otherwise it seems my DN is S.O.L.

You have an ability that allows you to be treated as the Undead type. Where is the confusion coming from?

[Necroticplague]

So yes, I have a trait that says creatures with the Undead Type heal via negative energy, and I have the Undead Type, but since I am always treated as the Humaniod Type, that trait doesn't seem to do much for me, unless something other than the Undead Type determines whether or not I am Undead.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is there anything other than Type that identifies something as Undead, because otherwise it seems my DN is S.O.L.

A:You don't have the Undead type. You're a Humanoid. You have the Undead traits, which are different from having the Undead type (though usually connected, this situation being one of the few when they aren't).

B:Under this logic, Human Heritage doesn't really let you keep any of your traits. After all, all traits are written as "[CREATURETYPE]......." where...... is things like "doesn't breath, eat, or sleep", which wouldn't help you as you aren't of that type.

C: Specific overrides general. The specific rule of keeping your traits (and thus any benefits that entails, such as healing from negative energy), overrides the more general rule about being considered Humanoid. Where these two conflict, the more specific rule (in this case, acting in accord with your Undead Traits) takes precedence.

[nedz]

This very point was debated in the first Dysfunctional rules thread - page 42 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214988-quot-Wait-that-didn-t-work-right-quot-the-Dysfunctional-Rules-Collection/page42), starting with post #1248.

[Necroticplague]

This very point was debated in the first Dysfunctional rules thread - page 42 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214988-quot-Wait-that-didn-t-work-right-quot-the-Dysfunctional-Rules-Collection/page42), starting with post #1248.

The dysfunction they're talking about is "are necropolitans damaged by CLW" which is "yes, they're undead (and thus subject to the rules under CLW for undead creatures)". However, a necropolitan with Human Heritage still isn't healed from CLW, the people who thought it did weren't reading closely enough.

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Even with Human Heritage, you still aren't a living creature, so you don't heal. However, you aren't an undead creature, and thus don't take damage, either.

Sometimes the people in that thread can get a bit too overzealous without enough reading.

[nolongerchaos]

A:You don't have the Undead type. You're a Humanoid. You have the Undead traits, which are different from having the Undead type (though usually connected, this situation being one of the few when they aren't).

B:Under this logic, Human Heritage doesn't really let you keep any of your traits. After all, all traits are written as "[CREATURETYPE]......." where...... is things like "doesn't breath, eat, or sleep", which wouldn't help you as you aren't of that type.

C: Specific overrides general. The specific rule of keeping your traits (and thus any benefits that entails, such as healing from negative energy), overrides the more general rule about being considered Humanoid. Where these two conflict, the more specific rule (in this case, acting in accord with your Undead Traits) takes precedence.

Again, since my words can be misinterpreted, I am not arguing for argument's sake but for the sake of understanding the rules interaction going on here. That said:

A. I absolutely have the Undead Type. I got it when I became a necropolitan, which due to the way necropolitan is applied, must have happened after I picked my first feat(s). So my type changes, but I still have a feat saying for all effects I am treated as the Humanoid Type.

B. Well, yeah that's kind of my point. RAW I'm keeping these traits, but when they check themselves to see if they apply to me, the answer seems to be a big ol' nope. I too think it's kind of dumb, but that functionality is literally the reason the feat was chosen (so that when someone trys to turn me, my Type says no).

C. I'm not even sure what you're saying here. The specific rule from the feat overrides the general rule from the feat? The feat is somehow overruling itself? No offense, but that really feels like you're grasping at straws. I feel like a more reasonable reading is that, generally, I would be treated as Undead, but with the feat I am instead specifically being tread as Humanoid. As for the traits, the feat is required to be taken at level 1. I feel reasonablely confident in saying that as such, keeping the traits of whatever inherited templates I may have while getting to be treated as Humanoid would be beneficial in some way. Unfortunately the feat doesn't seem to work so well with acquired templates (and the Undead Type in particular, though I would guess without looking, other Types acquired later through templates might fare equally badly). It might not be a kind ruling, but as far as I can tell, it seems to be a case where the answer is "tough bananas, deal with it."

[Rubik]

Did your parents ever cease to be human? No? Then you're human-descended.

Type is not a requirement for human descent, because a human with the half-dragon template is human-descended despite being of type dragon.

That said, it would be counterproductive here, since the whole reason to be a necropolitan is that you do want to be undead. A necropolitan with Human Heritage would have type Humanoid, and would retain all traits of their original type, which is also Humanoid.Actually, you're Humanoid (Human) with Undead traits, because that's what Human Heritage does. So you get everything important for being undead...except the Undead type. So you get to keep all those tasty immunities, but you're not affected by Turn/Rebuke Undead, Command Undead, Control Undead, and so on. You're affected by Enlarge and Reduce Person, but you are not affected by things that are mind-affecting (as you keep that immunity) or things that affect living creatures only like Polymorph (because your Con is --).

[edit] I really should have read the rest of the thread before posting. Monk'd!

[Necroticplague]

Again, since my words can be misinterpreted, I am not arguing for argument's sake but for the sake of understanding the rules interaction going on here. That said:

A. I absolutely have the Undead Type. I got it when I became a necropolitan, which due to the way necropolitan is applied, must have happened after I picked my first feat(s). So my type changes, but I still have a feat saying for all effects I am treated as the Humanoid Type. Actually, you don't. You forget the second line of Human Heritage. The one that actually turns you into a Humanoid (Human). So you start humanoid, become undead (as per necropolitan), then go back to being humanoid (due to Human Heritage). You're Humanoid with Undead traits.

You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision). You gain 4 additional skill points.


B. Well, yeah that's kind of my point. RAW I'm keeping these traits, but when they check themselves to see if they apply to me, the answer seems to be a big ol' nope. I too think it's kind of dumb, but that functionality is literally the reason the feat was chosen (so that when someone trys to turn me, my Type says no). Than why does it say you keep your traits, then? The only logical conclusion is that it makes the undead traits apply despite being of the wrong type.


C. I'm not even sure what you're saying here. The specific rule from the feat overrides the general rule from the feat? The feat is somehow overruling itself? No offense, but that really feels like you're grasping at straws. I feel like a more reasonable reading is that, generally, I would be treated as Undead, but with the feat I am instead specifically being tread as Humanoid.

Actually, it's the other way around. Since the feat changes your type to Humanoid, then generally, you are treated as a Humanoid (since you are one). As a specific effect, you benefit from the traits of your original type (Undead, in this case).

[nolongerchaos]

Actually, you don't. You forget the second line of Human Heritage. The one that actually turns you into a Humanoid (Human). So you start humanoid, become undead (as per necropolitan), then go back to being humanoid (due to Human Heritage). You're Humanoid with Undead traits.

Than why does it say you keep your traits, then? The only logical conclusion is that it makes the undead traits apply despite being of the wrong type.

Actually, it's the other way around. Since the feat changes your type to Humanoid, then generally, you are treated as a Humanoid (since you are one). As a specific effect, you benefit from the traits of your original type (Undead, in this case).


In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).
Okay, so first off I'm going to point out that keeping traits common to your "original type" is unfortunately not super helpful in the case of acquired templates. Even if becoming a necropolitan makes my type change from Humanoid to Undead to Humanoid again, you've got a lot of trouble convincing me that my "original type" is ever going to be anything other than whatever my type was when I took the feat at level 1, so I probably won't get to keep those nifty undead traits anyway, since I'll just turn back to a Humanoid.

But even if I did get to keep the traits, let's take a look at them (in a spoiler to keep things looking nice):



An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).


No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

The traits I have chosen to strikeout are the only traits (or parts of traits) that seem to check with your type to determine how/whether they work.
Overall, it looks like an undead with Human Heritage still gets to keep a pretty hefty list of functional traits. I fully admit that it makes little sense that say, an Awaken Undeaded Human Skeleton with the Human Heritage feat would need to breathe, but that particular trait explicitly says Undead, and said Skeleton's type is explicitly not Undead.

There are plenty of functional traits in there that do not check with Type to determine whether or not they function, and since the feat in question doesn't explicitly grant those abilities to function when my type changes, and like shooting eye lasers for 20d6 damage, we don't get to assume the feat lets me use an ability just because the feat doesn't say I can't.

[Chronos]

You don't get undead traits. You get the traits of your original type. Your original type wasn't undead; it was humanoid. So you're a humanoid with humanoid traits, just like an ordinary living human who never got crucimigrated.

[nedz]

You don't get undead traits. You get the traits of your original type. Your original type wasn't undead; it was humanoid. So you're a humanoid with humanoid traits, just like an ordinary living human who never got crucimigrated.

So you're saying that Necropolitan + Human Heritage = NOP, i.e. they cancel out.
Interesting: that at least would make sense.

The acid test would be to find something which Human and Undead experience differently and see which, if any, apply.
So: What does Cure Light Wounds do ? and conversely What does Inflict Light Wounds do ?
Everyone seems to have different answers for this one.