What would Paladin do? A moral dilemma within family

[Spore]

Greetings playground,

my recent Pathfinder group has been paused but the moral still stands. Short backstory to make you catch up:

My Halfling Paladin (former PF Cavalier - switched his class with a ritual) is the first born of an influential merchant who basically owns a whole town and made it his base of operations. His father is quite evil which the original character couldn't do anything against. (He is basically a slaver and drug lord.) So he cut himself off of the father's operations in order to find his own allies that align more with his. He found his way into the private army of another merchant and forming a rag-tag band of soldiers defending trade caravans and similar. This band died while defending the Dwarven fortress of the region so the character joined the PCs, found his way to the light and fought a lot of demons and devils already so he knows the devastation they bring.

Now a call from home has reached him. As he travels through the county he only encounters death and decay, when finally finding a caravan of his father's carrying a highly potential drug that weaken the barrier between dream and reality within the user's mind. Since demons are part of every living being's thoughts and dreams, they suddenly materialize from drug abusers, killing anyone around them while funneling the lives towards a gigantic ritual. We easily waltzed into my old man's home, capturing him and my little brother (who is equally as evil but blames anything on the old man). We are currently out and about to investigate the source of the more potent drug which is an enchanted forest where fey produce a vital ingredient, most likely against their will.

My character's father fully knew the risks he took but he did it for the money. Now his town sits in a large bubble (basically a giant Protection from Evil) and I have him in custody and travel with my evil brother.

tl;dr: Greedy Halfling merchant doomed thousands of people by allowing demons to run wild in the area in exchange for money, what do?

I am against executing father and brother because it doesn't allow for redemption. And also while the brother acts pretty much how I wrote him in the backstory, the father looks like he was blinded by greed. With the context for demons springing from dreams and greed being a deadly sin, could he possibly be possessed because our group consisting of a Cleric and a Sorcerer didnt check? My DM also explicitly stated that there is a dark in father's heart that wasn't there before. Did he mean that I didn't have the power to Detect Evil back then? Because he made it sound very important. If he isn't possessed what would a Paladin do?

Keep in mind that I am LG (but due to houserules I CAN go to LN and NG and not loose my powers because my DM rightfully decided that no Paladin could keep up his alignment until double digit levels otherwise, at least not in his dark and twisted world).

Justice aka LN would probably be trial and execution followed by forcing my father's trade empire (read: my trade empire then) to pay for "damages" to whomever. NG would probably be giving them the chance to redeem themselves only to counteract them if they betray us. But I can't think of a solution to make amends to both? Take over empire, pay generously to repair what is left and incarcerate half my family? Exile? I feel like showing mercy is the thing my PC would do but I can see the risk of repeating the same mistake with letting two evil entities live.

[Florian]

Force a Geas/Quest and Atonement on them. Let the, deadl with salavging the wreckage themselves after that.

[Seto]

Take all power and money away from them, leave them with nothing but their clothes and a few day's food, drop them in a farmer's village and let them start over again (while visiting them from time to time for supervision).

About the darkness in his heart... Either he's possessed, or he wasn't Evil before but now has crossed a line, or he's under the influence of the demons one way or another (maybe he's made a pact with them in order to obtain the drug in the first place ?).

[Spore]

Force a Geas/Quest and Atonement on them. Let the, deadl with salavging the wreckage themselves after that.

I can't make out the second half of your post. You mean "deal with salvaging the wreckage"? Sorry, I'm not used to English metaphors.


Take all power and money away from them, leave them with nothing but their clothes and a few day's food, drop them in a farmer's village and let them start over again (while visiting them from time to time for supervision).

About the darkness in his heart... Either he's possessed, or he wasn't Evil before but now has crossed a line, or he's under the influence of the demons one way or another (maybe he's made a pact with them in order to obtain the drug in the first place ?).

Father has obtained his wealth by betraying his own adventuring group, leaving them to rot in a tomb while he left and built a trade empire with the spoils of the dungeoncrawl. This just force the scenario to repeat. This is a good idea but I prefer supervision until I can detect at least no Evil anymore. Maybe take him on a tour through the devastated lands and force him to speak to the survivors. A literal guilt trip?

Concerning the dealings with the Demons. We know about a Gnome Summoner who worked as a more subtle envoy for this deal. Said Summoner also helped destroying the main temple and city of my faith. I know Enchantment spells are not on the list of Summoners but I can see the Summoner binding a demon to permanently influence Father (I think the payment of dead souls is enough to keep the demon working longer than day/level).

[Florian]

I can't make out the second half of your post. You mean "deal with salvaging the wreckage"? Sorry, I'm not used to English metaphors.

Sorry, my bad. Was typing that on my phone while sitting in public transit and didn't notice that I missed some keys.

You know how the spell "Atonement" works, especially the Redemption/Temptation part. You offer someone the change to switch Alignment.

For that to stick, they must be willing to go through with it and, the important part, be willing to stick to it later on.

As this is D&D with objective Alignments, if you manage to convince your relatives to got through with it, then your goal is reached, they truly changed and may even repent.

[Nobot]

I would say this is rather simple.

Law
Dealing with captives from a lawful perspective has one major element: submit perps to the competent authorities. That means you'll submit your father and brother to the relevant authorities and allow judgment to be passed on them. A paladin should never pass judgment on people himself unless he is the competent authority ("I am the law"). Considering they've probably committed the majority if not all of their crimes in someone's jurisdiction, those authorities should deal with it.

If the punishment is death, so be it. It is not necessarily a tenet of 'good' that no man should be killed for his crimes.

Good
And that is where I disagree with your statement "executing (...) doesn't allow for redemption"... It does. While the Paladin may submit his prisoners to a court that might very well impose a death sentence on them, he can offer the miscreants personal redemption. Even in 'the real world', it is/was not uncommon for those who are sentenced to death to confess or convert to a religion, hoping that some higher power might grant forgiveness that their peers cannot. And even when a miscreant does not seek such redemption, the Paladin can forgive (which is extra relevant here, as the criminals are family).

This redemption is what sets apart the Lawful Good from the Lawful Neutral, who might care less for the well-being of their captives' souls and more for cold-blooded justice. Additionally, the Lawful Good would likely only submit prisoners to a good or--at worst neutral--government.

[Geddy2112]

And that is where I disagree with your statement "executing (...) doesn't allow for redemption"... It does.

Second. Those not redeemed by words shall be redeemed by swords. They can seek salvation in death. I mean, being paid by demons for the souls of others is pretty dark stuff...and not easy to be redeemed from short of death.



letting two evil entities live.
Letting them live does not mean letting them be able to do this-they could be jailed, forced to a geas/quest, etc etc etc.


Take all power and money away from them, leave them with nothing but their clothes and a few day's food, drop them in a farmer's village and let them start over again
I like this one, but if either is more than a joe blow commoner they need to be watched. And perhaps a scarlet letter style brand so people know what they did.

[OldTrees1]

Who has been harmed, is being harmed, or would be harmed if not for your interruption?
The slaves(enslavement is harm), drug users(turned into weapons), people attacked by the demons, the father(tainted by his deeds), and the brother(presumably the same as the father).

A Paladin would strive to prevent, treat, or even cure these harms. You would be stopping the demon drug, integrating the slaves back into society as citizens, prevent the existing demons from harming more, and give the father/brother a path to redemption while preventing further evildoing.

Now, Paladins tend to not be omnipotent. So it is entirely possible that in the short term some of these actions would be mutually exclusive due to lack of time or other factors. Likewise, while the ideal Paladin is a paragon of moral perfection, some Paladins fall short of that mark. So what I described above will not describe every Paladin.


So I would suggest:
Seize a majority of the father's wealth (a trial if needed) to be used in sheltering survivors and rebuilding lives. The father and brother are given supervised roles in this project. Forced deeds are not virtuous but the position and remaining wealth will give the father and brother the opportunity to voluntarily go beyond their task. Then the PCs go about dealing with the demons and any hidden players(like the gnome).

[Spore]

This thread reminded me why going down the lawful path isn't necessarily the "goodest" thing to do. It's because the law is represented by pawns of the Asmodeus worshipping tyrannical ruler (which we try to stop from conquering the whole continent and who subsequently gets a point to attack my character).

[Florian]

This thread reminded me why going down the lawful path isn't necessarily the "goodest" thing to do. It's because the law is represented by pawns of the Asmodeus worshipping tyrannical ruler (which we try to stop from conquering the whole continent and who subsequently gets a point to attack my character).

Lol.

Just keep in mind that L is, in a certain sense, the antithesis of free will and personal liberty. Even a paladin will always place the "Greater Good"/Stuff that it good for all above what is good for the individual.

Why?

I give you a simple example: Someone has done wrong. By common law, he would have to face punishment. Now, that someone had a talk to his son, who has a certain standing with the community, and now he is off the hook, free as a bird. Whete's the justice there?


You know why I mentioned hitting them with a Geas/Quest now, right?

[Spore]

I feel there is a distinction between focussed on his own principles aka lawful alignment and actual laws. I would never let my enemies judge over my family, even if they were in the right.

[Florian]

I feel there is a distinction between focussed on his own principles aka lawful alignment and actual laws. I would never let my enemies judge over my family, even if they were in the right.

That is, until you run out of ways to rationalize things. Then you have to face the heart of evil. If come come out unscarred, you will.

[Clistenes]

Does your paladin serve a god? If so, he should let his patron make the judgement. Summoning fiends into the mortal world goes beyond the purview of mortal justice.

Even if he doesn't serve a divine patron, I feel he should defer to the judgement of some higher LG divine authority. A person is usually considered not fit to judge his or her own relatives. Your character's part should be to make sure that the authority judging his family is a true paragon of Law and Good, not to take justice into his own hands.

Also, if he refuses to let his relatives to be judged because they could be executed before finding redemption, he is being an hypocrite when he slays other evil people who aren't his relatives.

[Templarkommando]

Clearly, the father's actions are of an evil nature, and this would seem to merit punishment from both lawful and good characters in addition to characters with other descriptors for that matter. I can even see certain Lawful Evil or maybe even Chaotic Evil characters wanting vengeance on him for various reasons. That said, the father isn't necessarily the biggest fish in the demonic crime-ring. Maybe in exchange for sparing his life, the father will roll over on the demons. Giving information on how to attack the demons and foil their plan would be a good opportunity to avoid the hangman's noose and maybe just get a very long jail term.

[Spore]

Does your paladin serve a god? If so, he should let his patron make the judgement. Summoning fiends into the mortal world goes beyond the purview of mortal justice.

Not quite possible because of how my DM has rewritten his gods. They are typically silent in nature, and in my personal case it's a straight rip off of Eberron's Silver Flame. So it's more of a metaphysical power. It chooses when to speak to me, not vice versa. My party's cleric has tried to gain his god's favor and talk to him directly only to be told in a vaguely fashion by one of his god's servants that the gods could or could not have already forsaken this world.

Because of this, he also had personal alignment and deity alignment disjointed, making things like LE clerics of LG gods possible. Deities are just dogmas and principles held together by a personification really.

[Clistenes]

Not quite possible because of how my DM has rewritten his gods. They are typically silent in nature, and in my personal case it's a straight rip off of Eberron's Silver Flame. So it's more of a metaphysical power. It chooses when to speak to me, not vice versa. My party's cleric has tried to gain his god's favor and talk to him directly only to be told in a vaguely fashion by one of his god's servants that the gods could or could not have already forsaken this world.

Because of this, he also had personal alignment and deity alignment disjointed, making things like LE clerics of LG gods possible. Deities are just dogmas and principles held together by a personification really.

What about Solars? Planetars? Archons? Ancient Golden Dragons? Coutls? There should be some creature that can be trusted to be a Paragon of Law and Good you can ask to be the judge.

And if not, how do you plan to force them to redeem themselves? If he tells them to repent, they will pretend to avoid punishment. Even if you Geas them, they can go back to their old tricks afterwards, once it has run its course. If your character can't find a way to make sure they repent and redeem themselves for real, he should let them go to jail (not sure about letting them be executed).

My point is, if he let them go because they are his family, he should renounce imparting justice anymore and become some kind of pacifist healer, because he's an hypocrite otherwise.

[Spore]

My point is, if he let them go because they are his family, he should renounce imparting justice anymore and become some kind of pacifist healer, because he's an hypocrite otherwise.

You are very correct but I feel that is the true reaction of my character. He was always merciful above all. And we even try to redeem the Necromancer who killed thousands in the attack on the spiritual center of his own religion because he shares not only the race but also the backstory of loss with him. His credo is that good cannot come from violence and only spawns further violence. If his hand is forced however, he acts quickly, as does he against demons and devils. He has not killed anyone in combat without a very very good reason (out last "kill" was an evil monk that attacked us preventing us from stopping a ritual to summon a Balor).


What about Solars? Planetars? Archons? Ancient Golden Dragons? Coutls?

For someone without ANY Knowledge(Planes) who has been Paladin for under a year this seems outlandish. He was a soldier most of his life, the most important instance he can think of is his conscience and secondly a War Tribunal. Don't get me wrong this is a very good idea (except for the meta thought that my DM thinks any good outsiders are arrogant pricks that need a very good reason to grant their attention to mere mortals) but I cannot see my character having this one as his first.

[Aka-chan]

I think part of this depends on just how bad the destruction caused by the demons was. Is whatever judiciary the town used to have (courts, a lone magistrate, whatever) still intact? If so, your character could simply turn his father and brother over to these authorities.

If the society has completely gone to the Abyss in a handbasket, such that there's no appropriate authority left, the character might be able to call some sort of archon to render judgement. I'm not hugely familiar with Pathfinder and you didn't say what level your character is, so I don't know if he would have any of the Planar Ally spells available?

Regarding the issue of possession, Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil don't cast out possessing entities that are already present, but they do suppress any mental control over the host for the duration of the spell. So your paladin could cast one of those on his father and see if his demeanor changes.

If you do ultimately choose to let him go, Mark of Justice could be effective for keeping him and the brother from getting up to their old tricks.

[nijineko]

i think the root of the problem lies with the dm. can someone who has such views on outsiders as that one seems to, actually be able to rp true pure good without bias? most humans can't conceptualize true pure good in real life, let alone in a game. if that dm really thinks good (or lawful good) auto equals arrogant prick, then that individual has no grasp of what good actually is.

a solid grasp of the cosmology is a must before any attempt to answer this sort of moral question is possible. after all, the answer depends on exactly what is moral and ethical in this universe/context. and only the dm can answer that.

[Spore]

I think part of this depends on just how bad the destruction caused by the demons was. Is whatever judiciary the town used to have (courts, a lone magistrate, whatever) still intact? If so, your character could simply turn his father and brother over to these authorities.

The town he resides in is surrounded by completely dead ghost towns. There is possessed wildlife killing off the last stragglers. I think a swarm of evil house cats is the worst nightmare for wizards and commoners alike! The town he resides in practically everyone works for him. There is a distinct lack of clergy from Asmodeus, telling me that if he were sentenced in his hometown, the inaugurated magistrate would simply give him a monetary fine (which of course he would get back through black books).


If the society has completely gone to the Abyss in a handbasket, such that there's no appropriate authority left, the character might be able to call some sort of archon to render judgement. I'm not hugely familiar with Pathfinder and you didn't say what level your character is, so I don't know if he would have any of the Planar Ally spells available?

We have but the Cleric is the NG cleric of a neutral (anti-undead) sun god so I am not entirely sure which outsiders are even in question. If good outsiders are in question it's probably the NG Angels. If Father has particularly bad luck an Inevitable would be consulted (since several thousand souls have ended up imbalancing everything).


Regarding the issue of possession, Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil don't cast out possessing entities that are already present, but they do suppress any mental control over the host for the duration of the spell. So your paladin could cast one of those on his father and see if his demeanor changes.

Yup, that idea occured to me as well but we are on our way to stop the source of the demon spawning drug while Father has been imprisoned at home.


If you do ultimately choose to let him go, Mark of Justice could be effective for keeping him and the brother from getting up to their old tricks.

I would love for the final solution to involve something that the cleric can cast since he loves that kind of importance.

[Yahzi]

As he travels through the county he only encounters death and decay
Not a whole lot of redemption for all those dead victims.

I think LG chops off dad's head and puts a Mark of Justice + Atonement on little brother.

LN executes them both; NG does the same as LG; and CG lets them both off with Atonement.


I feel there is a distinction between focussed on his own principles aka lawful alignment and actual laws. I would never let my enemies judge over my family, even if they were in the right.
To me, that's classic CG.

[Florian]

I'm with Yahzi here. Putting ones personal opinion above what is for the greater common good is stereotypical CG behaviour.