What level would this spell be?

[dascarletm]

Dascarletm's Tournament Arrangement
Abjuration
Level: ?
Components: V, S, F (a silver brooch or clasp costing 25gp. for each creature)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Five willing creatures each wearing a focus/level
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

As part of casting this spell you designate a point within the spells range as the "arena." This spell's effects only work within 50ft+10ft/lvl of that point.
When you cast this spell, all willing creatures in the area who are wearing a focus are protected from each-others attacks and spells for the duration. While in the area of the spell those who would be killed by a death affect, level or ability drain, or similar condition by any other member of this spell's casting are instead knocked unconscious. Additionally any damage that would reduce a creature below 0 HP instead leaves them at 0HP and unconscious. This only applies to creatures who were similarly affected by the spell. At the end of the spell's duration all damage, level or ability drain, or similar negative inflicted by another target of the spell is removed. While affected by this spell the focus glows with a dim light signifying the creature's participation.

If the focus is removed from the creature's possession the spell immediately ends for that creature.

-

What level would this spell be, and would you re-word any of the description?

EDIT 1: Changed the Target
EDIT 2: Added area spell is effective within.
EDIT 3: Added dismissing condition, and added clarification that this only effects attacks by other participants.

[Vhaidara]

0, 1, Epic, or Fiat.

[J-H]

A quick eyeball puts this at Wizard 6-7 or Bard 5.

[dascarletm]

0, 1, Epic, or Fiat.

Well mostly it is fiat, just something I've done in campaigns where tournaments utilize a lot of magic. However I have some PCs interested in learning such a spell so that they could run tournaments on their own. I think the spell is pretty safe-guarded from being powerful in combat use, but I can see them being clever. Either way I'd like to place a level on it so they can learn it.


A quick eyeball puts this at Wizard 6-7 or Bard 5.
I was originally thinking lower myself, like around level 3 for wizards/clerics. May I ask why you think it would be up around level 6 or 7?

[Vhaidara]

The reasons for the levels I listed
0 and 1: The spell doesn't actually do anything. It's pure flavor, honestly, and putting it at a higher level will only serve the purposes of delaying the flavor and inflating the level of casters in an area known for tournaments
Epic: Kind of a joke, since there really aren't any points of comparison for such a broad "no one dies here" effect
Fiat: Duh.

[Beheld]

First thing to note is that 0HP is not normally unconscious. So you should probably change that it -1, Stabilized, and unconscious, and then of course everyone will take DieHard and never stop kicking ass.

This shouldn't be a spell, it should be a magic item that is a mile diameter disc and only functions for people standing on it or floating above it. IF you want a tournament thing, that makes more sense than a spell that people are going to cast and the be invulnerable. Unless you mean for that 100ft Radius spread to never move, in which case that is way too small to have an actual fight on in a world with Acid Fog, so you should again make it bigger.

Honestly, you could just have the spell/item act as delay death, and mark people as red when it is delaying death and red people aren't allowed to take actions by tournament rules, and have clerics nearby to heal then before they leave the area.

[nedz]

I would say Wizard 4-5 and maybe make the duration 1 hour / level.

[J-H]

I was originally thinking lower myself, like around level 3 for wizards/clerics. May I ask why you think it would be up around level 6 or 7?

It covers a potentially large number of targets in a large area, for a long time period. Not until level 4 or 5 do wizard typically get large-AOE extended-duration effects. The SRD level 6 spell list doesn't include a lot of large-AOE spells; the level 7 list includes spells like Reverse Gravity, Magnificent Mansion, Mass Hold Person, and Mass Invisibility.

It changes the damage output of all of those targets to non-lethal, affecting both weapons and acting as a form of Energy Substitution on all damaging spells cast. Changing weapon damage types and acting as a metamagic on spells cast by others is good for a couple of levels, at least. A spell that (on a failed save) "Converted all damage dealt by the target to non-lethal damage" even for rounds per level would be a powerful save-or-suck level 4 or level 5 spell on its own.

It provides healing and ability damage restoration, which is normally only accessible through divine spellcasting or the Wish line.... mitigated somewhat by the above damage-mods.

It's not a top-level spell (Wiz 8-9, Bard 6) by power, but it's got a wide enough radius and enough effects that it's close.


It might make more sense (and be more party-friendly) to make this a ritual requiring the participation of three or more casters, one of whom must be a divine spellcaster capable of casting restoration and healing spells. At that point, I'd say that it just means that each caster needs to donate a 4th or 5th level spell slot for the duration.

As an alternate method of the same effect, make it a whole series of lower-level spells (3rd-4th level) that each have a single effect and are cast as part of the set-up. Doing it that way even lets someone attempt to sabotage the safeguards by bribing the caster to skip the "converts acid damage to nonlethal" part and then loading up with acid spells before dueling his target... and oh, how sad, the protections failed and his opponent is all melted. What a tragic accident!

[dascarletm]

Interesting thoughts and potential work-arounds. Keep em' coming!:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the ideas thus far btw.

Another aspect of the spell that I think is important to keep in mind, is that it only affects willing participants, and only damage/conditions done by other participants will be negated.

As far as the 0 HP:
I don't think it is necessary to bring them to -1 and stable, since the spell specifically calls them to be unconscious, and would in effect trump that rule.

[ZamielVanWeber]

First thing to note is that 0HP is not normally unconscious. So you should probably change that it -1, Stabilized, and unconscious, and then of course everyone will take DieHard and never stop kicking ass.

This will cause them to bleed out at a rate of 1/hour until they make another 10% roll to gain consciousness. -1 conscious and in stasis would be better.

[Flickerdart]

Note that most of your area is wasted, since a spell's effects cannot extend beyond its range.

[Zanos]

I feel that the effect is fairly powerful from a non-metagame perspective. I'd peg it as around Wiz 6.

[dascarletm]

Note that most of your area is wasted, since a spell's effects cannot extend beyond its range.

Changed it to affect a certain # of creatures instead of an area. That should fix that.

[TheifofZ]

Knee Jerk reaction on seeing the 'noone dies' tidbit: "Oh, looks to be about 7th."
Upon closer inspection, it looks closer to a 6th. 5th for a Bard, maaaaybe a cleric.
Tagging it as a ritual requiring multiple casters and donated spell slots might lower the level slightly, but you do have to be careful about the effect.
People are well known to abuse loopholes and logical fallacies. I say, looking at the entire forum.

[dascarletm]

Knee Jerk reaction on seeing the 'noone dies' tidbit: "Oh, looks to be about 7th."
Upon closer inspection, it looks closer to a 6th. 5th for a Bard, maaaaybe a cleric.
Tagging it as a ritual requiring multiple casters and donated spell slots might lower the level slightly, but you do have to be careful about the effect.
People are well known to abuse loopholes and logical fallacies. I say, looking at the entire forum.

That is very true, but the only abuse I could see is to save someone at -7 or so HP by kicking them and bringing them up to 0.

Hardly all that powerful. You still take damage and the only time you are saved is if it is from a willing member of this spell. You still get placed unconscious if you are brought down by them.

Combat utility I see is having a fail-safe should you have an ally in an AOE, or get dominated and kill them.

[nedz]

While in the area of the spell those who would be killed by a death affect, level or ability drain, or similar condition are instead knocked unconscious. Additionally any damage that would reduce a creature below 0 HP instead leaves them at 0HP and unconscious.

In considering it's use by a standard party of adventurers in a standard encounter: the above two lines could do with more clarity because it's not clear that the protection is only against spells cast by other badge wearers. It's still a good protection against friendly fire however.

Also, it might be an idea to make the duration dismissable ?

[dascarletm]

In considering it's use by a standard party of adventurers in a standard encounter: the above two lines could do with more clarity because it's not clear that the protection is only against spells cast by other badge wearers. It's still a good protection against friendly fire however.

Also, it might be an idea to make the duration dismissable ?

I added those two things. I agree they were needed.

[Quertus]

In 2e, changing the reality of spells in an official Wizard's Duel wasn't a spell - it just happened. The two participants each donated a spell at the start to power / gain advantage in the duel, but there was no "Wizard's Duel" spell.

Or maybe there was. Maybe some wizard cast an epic spell a true dwoemer in ages past to allow other wizards to duel in this fashion.

I would make it either a) no spell, based on a pre-existing epic dwoemer in the world; b) no spell, based on a deity of law+magic patron of the duel; c) no spell, is a ritual per Unearthed Arcana; d) no spell, based on a magic item that syncs up among willing participants.

Not sure how players might break it. I can see having fun with illusion + sleight of hand + UMD (+ creating custom items, like a cursed version of the talisman) - but, at that point, it seems like more effort for less gain than many other shenanigans.

[bekeleven]

I love that this is dismissible.

"Surprise! You killed each other."

Someone remind me. Does killing the caster also end the effect?

[Rubik]

In 2e, changing the reality of spells in an official Wizard's Duel wasn't a spell - it just happened. The two participants each donated a spell at the start to power / gain advantage in the duel, but there was no "Wizard's Duel" spell.

Or maybe there was. Maybe some wizard cast an epic spell a true dwoemer in ages past to allow other wizards to duel in this fashion.

I would make it either a) no spell, based on a pre-existing epic dwoemer in the world; b) no spell, based on a deity of law+magic patron of the duel; c) no spell, is a ritual per Unearthed Arcana; d) no spell, based on a magic item that syncs up among willing participants.

Not sure how players might break it. I can see having fun with illusion + sleight of hand + UMD (+ creating custom items, like a cursed version of the talisman) - but, at that point, it seems like more effort for less gain than many other shenanigans.For spells, sure, but what about weapon duels? Also, if you want to avoid harming allies by AoE effects, just initiate a duel with a friend and proceed to blast the opposite side with no regard for friendly fire. So, basically a free nonlethal metamagic effect. Become immune to nonlethal, and...

[LordOfCain]

Disable fire against people not in the duel. Problem solved.

[Rubik]

Disable fire against people not in the duel. Problem solved.I'm not saying it's a BAD thing, just that it needs taken into account when figuring out how powerful it truly is.

[HalfQuart]

I think a lot of non-combat spells are higher level than they need to be for balance. For example Create Food and Water is a 3rd level spell, whereas I think it should be a cantrip -- It doesn't provide a significant mechanical benefit, but somehow the creators deemed it to be difficult, so it is higher level. Likewise with the spell you're proposing; mechanically it just allows PCs or NPC to have duels without fearing death, so I'd put it at like 2nd level.... but based on how complicated it is with changing how things works, and comparing it with other spells, I'd say it would be around 6th-7th level.

I also think creating an item to handle this might be a better idea -- you could have a Tent of Glorious Battle. It is a normal sized 8-person tent, but it is larger on the inside... with some sort of battle terrain specified at activation, and the terms you specified, but when someone dies they are ejected from the tent and can't re-enter until the battle is over. Or something like that.

[nedz]

I love that this is dismissible.

"Surprise! You killed each other."

Someone remind me. Does killing the caster also end the effect?
Slight of Hand to exchange someone's badge for a fake one.
Cue: Murder mystery plot.

I think a lot of non-combat spells are higher level than they need to be for balance. For example Create Food and Water is a 3rd level spell, whereas I think it should be a cantrip -- It doesn't provide a significant mechanical benefit, but somehow the creators deemed it to be difficult, so it is higher level. Likewise with the spell you're proposing; mechanically it just allows PCs or NPC to have duels without fearing death, so I'd put it at like 2nd level.... but based on how complicated it is with changing how things works, and comparing it with other spells, I'd say it would be around 6th-7th level.

I also think creating an item to handle this might be a better idea -- you could have a Tent of Glorious Battle. It is a normal sized 8-person tent, but it is larger on the inside... with some sort of battle terrain specified at activation, and the terms you specified, but when someone dies they are ejected from the tent and can't re-enter until the battle is over. Or something like that.
Mechanically you can achieve this effect already with Astral Projection. AP does quite a bit more than this spell but some kind of AP device (self resetting trap, charges per day item) could replicate this spell already.

[Rubik]

I'm not saying it's a BAD thing, just that it needs taken into account when figuring out how powerful it truly is.How about choosing which one to utilize when you cast the spell? Either you disable fire against anyone not affected by the spell, or those not affected by the spell are treated as normal? You can't really say that one effect deserves to be treated as higher level than the other, as both are really useful under the right circumstances. One means that you're protecting bystanders from the fight, and the other is for 'us against an army' situations. Both are exceedingly useful, and it'd lend this little utility spell some good uses in actual combat.

Of course, the former would need the "willing targets only" part removed.