Building a Ghost

[Alistaroc]

So, as most of the players in my group are new to D&D, I help them with character building, and they often select premade characters and change their stories to suit them. This time, I may have gone too far.

Celadrin Sleeping Tiger Monk 2/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ghost 4/Swordsage 1/Ninja(Rokugan) 2, taking the Evolved template after becoming a Ghost. He uses Ascetic Mage to synergize his Monk abilities.
He has 28 Charisma, 32 AC(touch 32 flat-footed 28), 80 HP, +19 Reflex and +20 Will saves, and he does 1d4+2 Con damage with each touch attack. He's got a 50% miss chance, and can go ethereal as well as being undead. His possession also requires a DC 26 Will save to resist.

I'd like to tone it down some.
How can I reduce his power, without nerfing him to all hell, or losing the Charisma synergy? The Monk levels are part of the backstory, which gives him the +Cha to AC on top of his normal incorporeal +Cha to AC.
Taking the Paladin levels away would give him x/+10/+11 saves.
The Swordsage level for Assassin Stance seems okay
And Ninja is just for Sneak Attack and BAB

What do you guys think?
He really loves his Malevolence possession, but I can't find anything to make that a focus.
And an AC higher than the tank plus a miss chance wouldn't sit well with the tank, or the rest of the party most likely.

[Crake]

How exactly did you get his cha to 28?
I see +2 celadrin, +4 ghost, +2 evolved undead (you know the rules about how long evolved undead need to be dead for, right? It's a 1% chance every century, so if he's been a ghost less than 100 years, he can't have gotten the template yet), so that's +8, does he have an item of cha?

How did you meet the requirement of being able to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells for ascetic mage?

Also, assuming you were using the savage progression for the ghost template here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), you wouldn't be able to do the con damage and have malevolence at the same time.

Oh, and how did you calculate DC26 to resist the possession? By my calculation it's 10+7HD/2+9cha for a total of DC22?

And swordsage wouldn't have a high enough initiator level to get assassin's stance, you only have 7HD total, so your initiator level is 4 (6/2+1 swordsage) so you don't qualify for it.

It's also worth noting that undead aren't completely immune to things requiring fort saves, just MOST things. So it's best to still calculate it in case someone decides to disintegrate you. Based on your saves and AC, i'd guess 18 dex, 14 wis and a +1 cloak of resistance? that would make your fort +6

[Alistaroc]

How exactly did you get his cha to 28?
I see +2 celadrin, +4 ghost, +2 evolved undead (you know the rules about how long evolved undead need to be dead for, right? It's a 1% chance every century, so if he's been a ghost less than 100 years, he can't have gotten the template yet), so that's +8, does he have an item of cha?

How did you meet the requirement of being able to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells for ascetic mage?

Also, assuming you were using the savage progression for the ghost template here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), you wouldn't be able to do the con damage and have malevolence at the same time.

Oh, and how did you calculate DC26 to resist the possession? By my calculation it's 10+7HD/2+9cha for a total of DC22?

And swordsage wouldn't have a high enough initiator level to get assassin's stance, you only have 7HD total, so your initiator level is 4 (6/2+1 swordsage) so you don't qualify for it.

It's also worth noting that undead aren't completely immune to things requiring fort saves, just MOST things. So it's best to still calculate it in case someone decides to disintegrate you. Based on your saves and AC, i'd guess 18 dex, 14 wis and a +1 cloak of resistance? that would make your fort +6
He's been dead for quite a while; that's why he has the evolved template. And no, he doesn't... I need to start checking his math. :smallannoyed:
Hmm. A quick google search of ascetic mage shows something very different than what I first read. What's the source of this feat? I only saw it online.
Ghostwalk feats Corrupting Touch, Agony Touch, and Touch Attack Specialization
Don't levels of Ghost give Undead HD? That's what I had gathered from looking at the example in Savage Species.
Malevolence is 15+Cha, making it 24 with a +9, and Ability Focus makes it 26.
I had assumed 4 HD of Ghost, bringing the iLvl to 5.
+6/+6/+12 base saves assuming 4 HD of Ghost.

[Necroticplague]

He's been dead for quite a while; that's why he has the evolved template. And no, he doesn't... I need to start checking his math. :smallannoyed:
Hmm. A quick google search of ascetic mage shows something very different than what I first read. What's the source of this feat? I only saw it online.
Ghostwalk feats Corrupting Touch, Agony Touch, and Touch Attack Specialization
Don't levels of Ghost give Undead HD? That's what I had gathered from looking at the example in Savage Species.
Malevolence is 15+Cha, making it 24 with a +9, and Ability Focus makes it 26.
I had assumed 4 HD of Ghost, bringing the iLvl to 5.
+6/+6/+12 base saves assuming 4 HD of Ghost.
It's from Complete Adventurer, intending to combine Sorceror and Monk. Requires 2nd level spell arcane spell and IUS. That being said, Battle Dancer instead of Monk would get the same effect for less resources (though Battle Dancer otherwise holds the dishonor of being one of the classes worse than Monk).

The Ghost class doesn't give HD. Instead, each level of Ghost increases your LA by one.

Technically, Ghosts of this type being able to take [Ghost]feats is a houserule (admittingly, a common one). Ghostwalk refers to Ghosts and the SRD Ghosts as separate creatures (the latter of which are called 'undead spirits', contrasted to the Outsider ghosts in the book.) The former can take [Ghost] feats, the latter cannot (as they are not ghosts).

[Crake]

No, ghost is +4 LA, it's a template, it gives no HD. All the savage progression does is increment the LA in several chunks.

Ascetic mage still does what you want it to, but it is designed for a monk/sorc multiclass, hence the pre-requisite. it's source is complete adventurer page 105.

And you're right regarding malevolence, that's a bit of a strange outlier in terms of DC calculation, but oh well.

[Necroticplague]

And you're right regarding malevolence, that's a bit of a strange outlier in terms of DC calculation, but oh well.

It's probably meant to have the same DC as a Sorceror casting Magic Jar, which would be 10 (base)+5(spell level)+CHA.

[Crake]

It's probably meant to have the same DC as a Sorceror casting Magic Jar, which would be 10 (base)+5(spell level)+CHA.

yeah, that's what i figured, though it's still an outlier, there are plenty of other SU abilities that emulate spells, but still follow the 10+1/2HD+ability DC formula

[Alistaroc]

It's from Complete Adventurer, intending to combine Sorceror and Monk. Requires 2nd level spell arcane spell and IUS. That being said, Battle Dancer instead of Monk would get the same effect for less resources (though Battle Dancer otherwise holds the dishonor of being one of the classes worse than Monk).

The Ghost class doesn't give HD. Instead, each level of Ghost increases your LA by one.

Technically, Ghosts of this type being able to take [Ghost]feats is a houserule (admittingly, a common one). Ghostwalk refers to Ghosts and the SRD Ghosts as separate creatures (the latter of which are called 'undead spirits', contrasted to the Outsider ghosts in the book.) The former can take [Ghost] feats, the latter cannot (as they are not ghosts).
Okay, if I wanted to let him be broken again, I could give him Battle Dancer 1 and add another level of Ninja and another feat. But barring that, because the point is a slight nerf anyway, that's a way to make his AC more reasonable.

And yes, I read through the Ghost Handbook, and it seems reasonable to give him those feats; it's a 3 feat investment for use with a very subpar BAB.

No, ghost is +4 LA, it's a template, it gives no HD. All the savage progression does is increment the LA in several chunks.

Ascetic mage still does what you want it to, but it is designed for a monk/sorc multiclass, hence the pre-requisite. it's source is complete adventurer page 105.

And you're right regarding malevolence, that's a bit of a strange outlier in terms of DC calculation, but oh well.
Gotcha, so he loses out on +2 BAB, 4d12 HD, and +1/+1/+4 saves by losing the Undead HD. Interesting. That makes him a bit more manageable.

So something more reasonable would be something like Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ghost 4/Ninja 6/Swordsage 1/Ninja 7 ?
And more ridiculous would be Battle Dancer 1/Ghost 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ninja 5/Swordsage 1/Ninja 7

Or is there some sort of exploitable weakness that would make Battle Dancer an okay class to take?

All I can see is his miserable 37 HP, +3 BAB, and vulnerability to turning/rebuking.

EDIT: Battle Dancer 1/Ghost 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ninja 4 doesn't seem too bad... I'll flesh it out once I get back to a sheet.

[Alistaroc]

UPDATE:
So, having rebuilt the Ghost as Battle Dancer 1/Ghost 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ninja 4, he has:
HP: 36
AC: 32
Saves: +13/+16/+12
BAB: +7/+2

Overall I'd say his low HP makes up for his high AC and Saves, as one shot getting through will spell death.

What are you guys' thoughts?

(And it was 28 Cha after all, he had 18 + 2 Racial +2 Evolved + 4 Ghost + 2 Level)