Let's Play: Losers and Rejects

[MaxWilson]

Here are four pretty-bad stat arrays rolled on Brock Jones.com.

12, 12, 11, 5, 5, 9
12, 10, 8, 11, 10, 13
12, 11, 11, 14, 9, 10
10, 10, 14, 13, 8, 10

Challenge: take this bunch of rejects and make a party which is capable, at fifth level, of fighting their way all the way through a full 8th level adventuring day using encounters generated on kobold.com for four 8th level characters, until you win enough fights to break the XP budget for four 8th level characters (24,000 XP). (Reroll any monsters with stats that you don't own, or that are inappropriate for the terrain, e.g. Hunter Sharks.)

Terrain: featureless 10' tunnel straight through the side of a mountain, jinking 45 degrees to left/right every 60 feet.

Rules of engagement: Encounters are all ahead of you, becoming visible 60' away when you turn the bend in the corridor. Enemies will respond to kiting attempts by hiding with a readied action (when someone moves into view: attack them in melee) behind a bend in the corridor. (A strict reading of RAW only allows you to ready a Move or an Attack, but for purposes of this scenario a house rule is in effect which allows both.)

Rest restrictions: there's a horde of murderously enraged giant rats on your trail. Every hour, there is a 50% chance that 2d6 giant rats led by 1d2 wererats will appear from behind. These do not count against the "adventuring day" budget. If evaded via Stealth or Rope Trick, they disappear from the scenario instead of fighting other monsters.

Example day from kobold.com:

1 Githyanki Warrior, 1 Green Hag, 1 Mummy (4200)
2 Allosaurus, 4 Half-Ogre (3400)
2 Manticore, 2 Scarecrow (3600)
1 Blue Dragon Wyrmling, 2 Giant Spider, 3 Thri-Kreen (3400)
1 Hydra (3900)
1 Basilisk, 2 Ghouls, 3 Spectres (3400)
8 Kuo-toa Whips (4000)
Total: 25,300 XP of difficulty

Behind you is only grief and pain. Ahead lies freedom and respect from your peers. Show them all why they shouldn't have laughed.

[Mara]

4 moon druids. Apply stats as Wis>con>dex then stats that line up with background skills.

[Malifice]

4 moon druids. Apply stats as Wis>con>dex then stats that line up with background skills.

Short rest limitations will kill them. Youre better off with two and two rope trick spamming wizards (can also provide artillery if needed).

Even better:

2 x Gnome Wizard [Diviner] 5s. Core spells: Mage armor, Rope trick, Fireball, Counterspell, Shield, Silent image, Sleep. Both took Elemental adept (Fire) at 4th level. Stats are Int (14), Con, Dex, Wis, Str, Cha in that order

With Arcane recovery, the party now has enough Rope tricks to spam one after every single encounter, leaving us fully short rested entering into every battle.

We have 8 x 1st level spells (Mage armor x 2 and 6 x whatever), and 4 x 3rds (fireballs, counterspells), plus cantrips remaining for the AD.

2 x Chain pact Warlock 5. Key spells; Fireball. Imp familiar. Key invocations: Repelling blast, voice of the chain master, mask of many faces. Replace mask of many faces for Misty visons on Warlock 2). Both are Vumans. One has the healer feat. The other (mask of many faces) has has the Actor feat (and proficiency in deception and intimidate). Both have the Elemental adept (Fire) feat. Cha (13/14), Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Str in that order.

Tactics:

The party advance down the hallway with the Gnome #2 using Silent image to create the illusion of a 15' wide rolling cloud of terrifying dark smoke filled with flames and dozens of huge glowing red eyes and daemonic clawed arms lashing out of it, silently rolling 15' ahead of the party, and blocking LOS to them. The party all interact with the illusion at first so they can see through it just fine.

The first Imp is the 'scout imp' - it turns invisible and scouts 300' ahead of the party (enough to see around the next few corners), with Warlock #1 seeing through its senses and noticing any incoming monsters (via voice of the chain master). He then warns the other PC's. This buys the party a round or two for the 'Locks to ready actions (fireball) for when the creatures get to 60' (they can see through the scout Imps eyes so can maximise the carnage). Gnome #2 uses his time to spreads caltrops inside and just behind the smoke daemon illusion while maintaining concetration on it (leaving a narrow safe path on the outer edges). Gnome #1 readies fireball as a contingency.

The second Imp is the 'distraction Imp'. Its role is to advance in front of the illusion, but behind the scout imp, and then (in a puff of smoke) visibly appear to the monsters 10' in front of the 15' tall smoking Daemonic horde, and to speak in a booming voice that 'It wishes to seek an audience with any creature is meets on behalf of the daemonic master' (gesturing at the horrific smoke daemons behind it). The Warlock with Actor and Initimidate/ Deception plays the part of the 'daemon' calling out from behind the shadowy form if needed.

This should cause the monsters to hesitiate for a round or two, and possibly even try to talk to the Imp (or attack it) further distracting them, and buying the party more time. Scout imp watches all of this from behind the monsters, invisible and relaying it all back to Warlock #1 (he actually sees what the Imp sees thanks to voice of the chain master)

Once the monsters round the corner and are engaged with the distraction imp/ hesitating (either fighting it or talking to it) both Warlocks each fling a fireball down the corridor through the opaque daemonic smoke cloud, while Gnome #2 makes the Daemon illusion look like its the one casting the spell. The 'Locks milk Temp HP on things they kill (and likely destroy everything in the encounter). Gnome #1 follows suite with fireball of his own this turn if needed (he has to ration a bit more).

The fireballs are readied and timed to occur just before the Warlocks actual turn in the initiative order, allowing 4 x Fireballs in a single round. 5 x Fireballs, counting the Gnome, or 40d6 damage treating 1's as 2's and ignoring fire resistance.

The distraction Imp declares 'Its master is upset', and begs for calm, ordering the monsters to 'Drop to the ground before its master unleashes a another flaming blast of destruction' with the Warlock relying on intimidate and deception to again play the part of the 'Daemon' and hopefully buying another round of time for the party to pick off any stragglers with magic missile spells, repelling Eldritch blasts pushing them back down the corridoor,a second fireball from the Gnomes, and using Portent to ensure hard to kill BBEGs fail their saves vs fireball. The Scout imp meanwhile becomes visible and attacks from the rear, blocking any escape and buying even more time (And the 'locks can drop more illusions behind the monsters for an even greater distraction, to block off any escapes or to split the monsters up if needed with Misty visions).

Counterspell and invisibility are relied on for emergency exits and dealing with any enemy casters.

After the encounter is reduced to ash, one of the Gnomes casts rope trick and they party climbs up, with the 'Locks recovering slots, patching the party up with the healer feat, and re-summoning any fallen Imps.

If for some reason the encounter critters are immune to fire, or the party needs to otherwise escape, instead of attacking, the 4 x PC's use their advance warning, the cover of the Daemonic illusion (and the enemies futile attempts to discuss 'terms' with the distraction Imp) to cast Rope trick and dissapear up the rope and behind the cover of the illusion, or rely on combinations of Misty visions (for more illusions), the actor feat + deception and invisibility to sneak past.

Rinse and repeat.



Example day from kobold.com:

1 Githyanki Warrior, 1 Green Hag, 1 Mummy (4200)
2 Allosaurus, 4 Half-Ogre (3400)
2 Manticore, 2 Scarecrow (3600)
1 Blue Dragon Wyrmling, 2 Giant Spider, 3 Thri-Kreen (3400)
1 Hydra (3900)
1 Basilisk, 2 Ghouls, 3 Spectres (3400)
8 Kuo-toa Whips (4000)


All most likely incinerated on round 1.

[MaxWilson]

Short rest limitations will kill them. Youre better off with two and two rope trick spamming wizards (can also provide artillery if needed).

Four Moon Druids in a stone tunnel have no problems with short rests. In fact, they can long rest with no problems: Meld Into Stone is a druid ritual.

[djreynolds]

Well the last guy could be an elf ranger, and beast master could get some love with an owl or bat or something sneaky.

[Malifice]

Four Moon Druids in a stone tunnel have no problems with short rests. In fact, they can long rest with no problems: Meld Into Stone is a druid ritual.

Good pick up. The Moon Druids are looking much better.

I would probably take:

1) A Vuman Fiend Chainlock with ritual caster [druid] and Elemental adept [Fire] (for 2 x fireballs + scouting ahead with invisible familiar). Imp familiar, voice of the chain master, repelling blast, misty visions. Wisdom 12(13) at 1st level. Then (in order) Cha, Con, Dex, Str and Int.

2) 2 Vuman Evokers (armed with fireball, magic missile, sleep, shield, counterspell). Know Ritual caster [Druid] and Elemental adept [Fire] feats. Both have Wisdoms of 12 (13 from human). Then (in order) Int, Con, Dex, Str and Cha.

3) Moon Druid 5 (doesnt need Ritual caster, so I would take the Lucky and Warcaster feats to keep concentration going). Important spells: Conjure animals, meld into stone. Wisdom 12(13), then Con, Int, Dex, Cha, Str in that order.

Tactics:

The Chainlock warns the party of advancing enemies via invisible Imp familiar scouting 300' ahead. The Druid then spams Conjure animals to get 2 x brown bear meatshields (or 8 x Large axebeaks, or whatever fits best) in front of the party. If one bear goes down, the Druid drops concentration and spams two more bears, and then adopts bear form himself (spamming slots to heal).

With the monsters all hemmed in behind a wall of several large angry bears, the three casters hanging back are free to nova fireballs (that all ignore fire resistance), spam auto hit magic missiles, repelling eldritch blasts etc on the monsters at will, doing 24d6 fire damage to every single monster per round for the first 2 rounds (in addtion to what the bears are dishing out). Two more fireballs follow on round 3 dealing a further 16d6 (along with two repelling eldritch blasts), and then 2 more repelling eldritch blasts and 8d4+8 damage Magic missiles follow from round 4 onwards. Counterspell and shield deal with any ranged attacks or spells that get lobbed back in over the bears as reactions.

After the battle, the 4 x PC's ritual cast Meld into stone, long rest and recover all expended spell slots and all HP.

Rinse and repeat.

Much more elegant.

[lordshadowisle]

Some extra ideas to throw into the barrel:

How about Leomund's Tiny Hut? This will also allow long rests at will. In addition, upon reading the spell and the conditions of this challenge, there's a little trick may be possible. Leomund's creates a invulnerable dome of force of radius 10'... and the tunnel is 10' only. Leomund's can therefore be cast as a blockage to seal off the parts of the tunnel. Those giant rats can't get past the blockage.

[MaxWilson]

Much more elegant.

I actually thought your first version, with the warlocks, was more elegant. Abusing Meld Into Stone to take multiple long rests as opposed to short rests feels cheesier to me, more likely to run into restrictions in a real scenario (food/water/deadlines). Taking six hours to escape seems fine; taking six days seems less fine (deduct style points). Besides, if you're going to spend a bunch of feats on ritual casting, you might as well make it ritual caster (wizard) for Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress so you don't need to spend one feat per person. Edit: ninja'ed.

I enjoyed your use of Chainlocks and Misty Visions too.

I think this would be a fun scenario to actually play out. If characters with these stats can steamroll a whole day's worth of level 8 encounters at level 5, I think that pretty effectively makes the point that 5E is Easy Mode by design.

[Malifice]

Some extra ideas to throw into the barrel:

How about Leomund's Tiny Hut? This will also allow long rests at will. In addition, upon reading the spell and the conditions of this challenge, there's a little trick may be possible. Leomund's creates a invulnerable dome of force of radius 10'... and the tunnel is 10' only. Leomund's can therefore be cast as a blockage to seal off the parts of the tunnel. Those giant rats can't get past the blockage.

It takes a minute to cast and the rats might be waiting for you at the end.

Simply walking into the walls with Meld into stone works much better.

Scout ahead with the chainlocks imp. Summon 8 x CR 1/4 Large axebeaks to block off the corridor once the enemy is detected (or 2 Brown bears), and herd them forwards, with everyone else readying a fireball once in contact with the enemy. Spam more axebeaks (or brown bears) as needed, and have the Druid block off the coriddor in Bear form too.

Laugh at the hillarity of a three pyromaniac humans and a huge bear herding a large flock of axe beaks down a corridor.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/pathfinder/images/0/0d/Paraphysornis_BW.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101010003319

[MaxWilson]

It takes a minute to cast and the rats might be waiting for you at the end.

Ritual casting Meld Into Stone (10 minutes + 1 action) takes longer than regular casting of Leomund's Tiny Hut (1 minute).


Some extra ideas to throw into the barrel:

How about Leomund's Tiny Hut? This will also allow long rests at will. In addition, upon reading the spell and the conditions of this challenge, there's a little trick may be possible. Leomund's creates a invulnerable dome of force of radius 10'... and the tunnel is 10' only. Leomund's can therefore be cast as a blockage to seal off the parts of the tunnel. Those giant rats can't get past the blockage.

Yes, Leomund's Tiny Hut is twice as big as the tunnel. If you're willing to leave the wizard behind in the hut, you can block it off for extended periods. But why would you? How is that better than just bringing the wizard with you?

Some nasty people might have fun building a party specifically to farm the giant rats for XP over time, ignoring the main challenge.

[Malifice]

I actually thought your first version, with the warlocks, was more elegant. Abusing Meld Into Stone to take multiple long rests as opposed to short rests feels cheesier to me, more likely to run into restrictions in a real scenario (food/water/deadlines). Taking six hours to escape seems fine; taking six days seems less fine (deduct style points). Besides, if you're going to spend a bunch of feats on ritual casting, you might as well make it ritual caster (wizard) for Leomund's Tiny Invulnerable Fortress.

I enjoyed your use of Chainlocks and Misty Visions.

Thanks man. The idea of the 'distraction imp' made me laugh when I thought of it.

Kind of like this from the monsters PoV:

http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/D/Demons%20Souls/Bulk%20Viewers/PS3/2009-05-20/demonssouls_screens_07--article_image.jpg

With an imp hovering in front of it, seeking to 'negotiate' with the monsters on behalf of the (illusiory) demons behind it.

Behind all of that, is a line of caltrops and a bunch of fireball wielding spellcasters.

[Malifice]

Ritual casting Meld Into Stone (10 minutes + 1 action) takes longer than regular casting of Leomund's Tiny Hut (1 minute).

Yeah but it blocks off the corridor.

Meaning there could be a lot of Rats waiting for you once the spell expires.

Meld into stone works better (8 hour duration, and no notice of your passing). Rope trick has its benefits too (only gives a short rest, but only takes 1 round to cast, and could be done either inside or behind an illusion during combat to really screw with your enemies minds)

[MaxWilson]

Yeah but it blocks off the corridor.

Meaning there could be a lot of Rats waiting for you once the spell expires.

Not disagreeing with you there, but on the note of farming rats for XP...

Since you can see through the Hut, you'll know about the rats. You could for example move everybody but the spellcaster out of the hut and 60' away; they all ready Fireballs to go off as soon as the hut disappears, and then the caster uses his own action to Dash out of the hut (causing it to disappear) towards everybody else. Suddenly 24d6 worth of Fireballs go off, and the PCs collect the XP from an average of 8d6 rats and 4d2 wererats. (28 * 25 XP + 6 * 450 XP = 3400 XP. Do that ten times and you'll hit 6th level!)

In practice it wouldn't be quite that simple, because 8d6 rats and 4d2 wererats take up at least 85' x 10' of tunnel space even if they're all packed together, so you can't even see all the rats to Fireball them simultaneously. So it might not be simple--but it wouldn't be a lot more complicated either. E.g. you could just toss up a nice Web spell (edit better yet: Spike Growth) before leaving the Hut and that will guarantee that you won't get mobbed.


Meld into stone works better (8 hour duration, and no notice of your passing). Rope trick has its benefits too (only gives a short rest, but only takes 1 round to cast, and could be done either inside or behind an illusion during combat to really screw with your enemies minds)

In-combat Rope Trick sounds hilarious!

[lordshadowisle]

Some nasty people might have fun building a party specifically to farm the giant rats for XP over time, ignoring the main challenge.

:smallsmile: Grinding is means to ultimate power!


Yeah but it blocks off the corridor.

Meaning there could be a lot of Rats waiting for you once the spell expires.

Meld into stone works better (8 hour duration, and no notice of your passing). Rope trick has its benefits too (only gives a short rest, but only takes 1 round to cast, and could be done either inside or behind an illusion during combat to really screw with your enemies minds)

Rope trick before the hut disappears. Thus, you only need 1 wizard, freeing up other party choices.

[MaxWilson]

:smallsmile: Grinding is means to ultimate power!

Rope trick before the hut disappears. Thus, you only need 1 wizard, freeing up other party choices.

Ah, very clever.

[numerek]

moon druid 2 draconic sorcerer 3 variant human mobile proficient acrobatics, stealth, deception, perception, subtle spell
5, 5, 9, 11, 13, 13
moon druid 2 draconic sorcerer 3 variant human mobile proficient acrobatics, stealth, deception, perception, subtle spell
8, 10, 10, 11, 13, 14
moon druid 3 trickery cleric 1 rogue 1 variant human mobile expert stealth, acrobatics proficient deception, perception
9, 13, 10, 11, 14, 12
moon druid 2 trickery cleric 1 rogue 1 monk 1 variant human mobile expert stealth, acrobatics, proficient deception, perception
8, 14, 10, 10, 14, 11

The clerics give the sorcerers blessing of the trickster
Some body casts longstrider
The sorcerers cast invisibility with 3rd level slots
The 3rd level druid casts pass without trace
One of the clerics bless the party (because why not)
The monk provides guidance initially and any other time they think they can get away with it(switches out of wild shape and back into spider form he can only do this once).
They all turn into spiders and sneak their way out.
The monk leads the way

Is it 100% foolproof? No. Does it have a chance of working? Yes.

This is a game of chance, I don't think that a party could be constructed that has 100% chance of success. If every creature succeeded their saving throws and the divination wizards didn't roll rolls that would make them fail and all the damage dice were 1s (even if they count as 2s that would be pretty low damage) and the monsters all crit when they attack and roll max damage and the players always roll ones when they attack.

[CNagy]

In practice it wouldn't be quite that simple, because 8d6 rats and 4d2 wererats take up at least 85' x 10' of tunnel space even if they're all packed together, so you can't even see all the rats to Fireball them simultaneously. So it might not be simple--but it wouldn't be a lot more complicated either. E.g. you could just toss up a nice Web spell (edit better yet: Spike Growth) before leaving the Hut and that will guarantee that you won't get mobbed.


To fix that, you have to change the readied actions; Caster A readies an action to cast fireball when the Hut disappears. Caster B readies an action to cast fireball when Caster A casts fireball. Caster C readies an action to cast fireball when Caster B casts fireball. Because these reactions take place after the trigger, instead of three fireballs going in and wiping out a portion of the rats/wererats, one fireball goes in and blasts away some of them, then the fireball penetrates deeper before hitting something and exploding, and the third goes deeper still. Lastly, the wizard who dashed out of the hut can toss a fireball of his own for cleanup duty if needed.