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View Full Version : Advice for a soon-to-be Rogue who used to play Paladin?



Runa
2007-05-27, 01:51 AM
Hey, well, my group and I are apparently coming up with new characters (which makes me sad in one respect because it I had a really unique, fun, BIZARRE character that was also incredibly useful being that she was pretty much the "tank" for the group in melee and she was getting some real good character development... but on the other hand, I am increasingly excited about the new character, so hey!).

Now, for some perspective: part of our group briefly met on a different day as a different group with a different game and characters, which didn't last long as a certain somebody realized he was much happier as a PC than a DM. In that game, I played a Healer (using the Miniatures manual thing for character creation), who was damn good at the healing even at low levels, but really didn't do much in a fight except half the time manage to hit something with a crossbow. She also apparently had a bit of a temper, though only because she had no tolerance for stupidity, as much as she may have cared about helping and healing people (she once smacked the party's bard - thankfully, my boyfriend, who can take a joke/RP! - upside the head for threatening what turned out to have been meant as a non-violent encounter against a creature that could have wiped the floor with us and temporarily souring our reputation with him). This is mildly, mildly MILDLY important to what I'm going to ask, because this was the game I skipped out on half the time and which eventually just kind of fell apart and ended after the adventure did. It was nice to be useful, but I like being active in a fight or having a lot to do. Standing back and not taking hits was fine with me since I was the party's only healer, but once in a while it got a little boring, especially with little RPing going on (luckily the game we're coming up with new characters for is NOT with this DM, but our regular, Tuesday-nights DM, in that game there's a little more RPing typically and more wacky stuff going on). On a side note, she was, quite uselessly, a half-elf. I don't know why anybody creates half-elf characters and I'm ONE of them! :smallconfused: There ended up being no point to it.

The character I've played most and had the most fun with has been - get this - a Lawful Good Fey'ri Paladin whose god(dess) turned out to be the Drow goddess Elistrae. The DM allowed it because he figured bloodlines (a Fey'ri is basically half-Sun Elf, half-Outsider) shouldn't determine everything about a character's chosen path and besides of which it was "funny". The goddess? Well, she may normally be a Drow goddess, but she accepts any Elven follower, and I WAS playing a character who by blood was half-elf (DM was cool with it. DM rocks). People familiar with Elistrae though, probably know she's a strongly Chaotic Good-aligned goddess.

So, I had a HIGHLY interesting (IMO at least), albeit slow character development path wherein my character (who had struck out on her own as a Paladin because she had had some sort of vision of a mysterious goddess convince her into it one night in her dreams, but who had no idea what god she was actually following, only that her god wanted her to do Good things saying she could be "better" than her Outsider lineage would lead her to believe) became very close to the party's Rogue (who was a loveable CG idiot, in short. Think Elan as a Rogue with practically no success at all in being a Rogue. Well, OK and maybe a couple higher points of INT), and eventually also was, in one pivotal fight, forced to lose her mind/control under the influence of an enemy spell. Keep in mind that because of a few good rolls and some strategic skill placement and damn good armor/weaponry, she was essentially an unstoppable tank in melee, and not used to "losing herself" in battle that easily. She also ended up Lawful simply because, I suppose, it was a gut reaction to abandoning her people's ways; being Lawful and Good together would seem to be the antithesis of a normal Fey'ri and remember, she had the impact of a goddess' words about being "better" in her mind to boot. That said, being controlled was something she found she couldn't live with, and her CG rogue friend was showing her Good-aligned life as a much happier path.

So after an internal crisis and her goddess finally approaching her in her dreams one night and revealing herself (and basically telling her she should get the Lawful stick up out of her ass, albeit much more nicely than that), she became a Paladin of Freedom - a CG Paladin (which I would LOVE to play in full some day, right from the get-go in a game). She was also all set to become a Sword-dancer (prestige class you can get if you follow Elistrae and do certain things, IIRC mostly dancing in the moonlight for a month straight. Did I mention Elistrae is big on dance and music?) She now helps the helpless (and the loveable idiots who keep getting themselves in trouble) more just because she feels it's right, not because she feels she "has to" to prove something to herself by doing the right thing, or to please a god. Good for Good's sake, as it were, because it feels right. She also believes that part of being Good is helping people not just be Safe, but also Free. Interesting development, I thought. Sigh. I SO didn't want to abandon this character! :smalltongue: But anyway.

So, that tells you where my RPing prefs in the past have gone. Now, on to the issue at hand: my group has always had minor, um, problems, mostly because of the way some of us were creating our characters (we totally have a :belkar: in the group. And a :vaarsuvius: to much lesser extent), and I dunno, basically everybody else just wanted to start new characters. Because of the idea for the new group though, they gave me one rule: "No Paladins. No, not even a Paladin of Freedom. "

So since our Rogue (my BF) decided to play another class character (Necromancer of all things. A Necromancer who has vowed to do things that will cause him to say things like: "Go, my undead minions! Save the children from the burning orphanage!". Did I mention there is a reason I date this guy now? :smallbiggrin: ), that meant Rogue was up for grabs if I wanted it. Out of all the classes I haven't tried (and we're going to already have a cleric, so we don't need a Healer though that was less fun to begin with anyway), this seemed most fun and we didn't have one, so what the hey.

Now keep in mind that I haven't been RPing for long - only for a few months in D&D. My previous roleplaying was all play-by-post and was brief and sporadic at that. So if you feel the need to explain something using actual rules and numbers and lingo, please explain it like you would to somebody who has never ever played the game! ^^;;

Anyway, basically, I want advice on how to play a (female) Rogue... from people who have had success in it or otherwise know how to do it well (my BF's said he'll help me too, but I want a variety of opinion on this, since D&D seems like the kind of game that you can get a LOT of approaches to even when it comes to just one class or alignment).

I've chosen CG as an alignment because I just think it's the most fun and the party's predominantly Good-intentioned, even though some of us have to be Neutral because of class reasons (see above about the BF wanting to be a Necromancer who uses his talents to help people); most of us seem to be Chaotic too, except for one player who's chosen to be a Monk with a Vow of Poverty. Again, female Rogue; young, and a Moon Elf too (full-blooded this time, darn it! :P). Her backstory, such as it is, is that her parents were also CG Moon Elf rogues who wandered around stealing stuff and helping the poor and the helpless (which seems like a fun perspective to play! ^_^). She's following in their footsteps.

Now, this is where it gets a little weird and where numbers get important and where I'm going to (very apologetically) remind folks that I'm pretty much a complete newbie even though I've been playing for a couple months now.

We aren't completely creating new characters, if all goes according to plan (the DM may end up saying differently when it comes to crunch time; we'll see): we're going to MOSTLY create new characters, but they'll be roughly the same level (7 or 8) that our old characters were, and we may redistribute our old stuff amongst the new party (this is the biggest thing where I think our DM may end up saying "You know what? Um, no." Which is OK, I think I've got most of what I need so I don't need the money or weapon, and the old character's armor would only slow me down).

So, 7 or 8 level female Moon Elf rogue. Here's the equipment list so far, because I'm not sure what I'm going to put my points or ranks into yet and decided to go shopping first:

*Calthrops(sp?), those iron things that you let fall down and trip up your enemies.

*Several flasks of acid (1D6 damage if direct hit and 1 point damage to everything within 5 ft of it, can be thrown 10 ft or so if I recall).

*A flask of what I think was called Alchemist's Fire (basically napalm; same rules as acid flask except it also does an extra d6 damage from them falling down ON FIRE, especially if they can't put it out right away. I have the page number written down for that one on my character sheet, but I don't have the Player's Handbook with me and my BF has my character sheet right now)

*A vial of anti-poison stuff (our previous rogue kept getting poisoned by giant scorpions and stuff, so I figure having a vial doesn't hurt!)

*That theives' kit thing with lockpicking stuff.

*Leather armor (so it doesn't interefer with DEX but gives me SOME kind of AC better than nothing)

*5 daggers (for throwing or even just emergency self-defense, as they don't take as much time to draw)

*Either a Light Crossbow or a Hand Crossbow (this is one of those things I want advice on; Light Crossbow is more powerful and longer range, but we tend to fight fairly close quarters anyway, and it may or may not be better to have a hand free, what do you think?), + 50 bolts for it

*Crowbar

*Torch

*Other basic necessities like food


How am I doing so far? And when I've got everything set up, sheet-wise, what other advice do y'all have, if any?

Any help (and the considerable patience it takes to have read all of the above) is much appreciated! ^_^

Rincewind
2007-05-27, 01:57 AM
Well, rogues do it from behind.
Paladins never do it from behind...
That'll be the first and most important thing you must realize. :smallcool:

Stab, kick, yell, headbutt and sneak attack those damn XP chunks, sod the honour...

Runa
2007-05-27, 02:16 AM
Well, rogues do it from behind.
Paladins never do it from behind...
That'll be the first and most important thing you must realize. :smallcool:

Stab, kick, yell, headbutt and sneak attack those damn XP chunck, sod the honour...

:smallbiggrin: Bwaha! Too true. Our previous party's rogue had considerable trouble in fights when he couldn't Sneak Attack. (There's also a fun story about when he failed a Move Silently check while trying to sneak out and find treasure on his own under the pretense of taking a pee; needless to say, he brought down a considerable number of, I forget what I think they were "insect orcs" or something, down on our little behinds. While we were trying to rest. And not in our armor. And he was supposed to be on watch. Ah, good times, good times, believe it or not. Very funny RP moment happened after that, where he tried to Bluff every one of us! Bwaha!)

I take it I'm right to think it's going to be a good idea to put ranks into Hide and Move Silently, then? And to take the couple of Feats I saw somewhere in the Player's Handbook that enhanced those?

The_Snark
2007-05-27, 02:24 AM
Just maximum skill ranks in Hide/Move Silently will usually do fine, really; that and those items that enhance Move Silently/Hide, if you're allowed magical items to start. (They're not too expensive for most level 7-8 characters, and flavor-wise they're elven-made.) Improved Initiative is a good feat for going first, which is especially handy for sneak attacking.

Tumble is a great skill for rogues, since it lets you cartwheel into flanking positions and start sneak attacking. Bluff and Diplomacy are the two standard skills for talking you and your party out of trouble; if nobody else has those, go for them. If your DM likes traps, make sure you have Search and Disable Device; if you've never run into a trap, you can probably skip out on Disable Device, but Search is still good for finding hidden treasure and secret doors.

Runa
2007-05-27, 02:48 AM
Just maximum skill ranks in Hide/Move Silently will usually do fine, really; that and those items that enhance Move Silently/Hide, if you're allowed magical items to start. (They're not too expensive for most level 7-8 characters, and flavor-wise they're elven-made.) Improved Initiative is a good feat for going first, which is especially handy for sneak attacking.

Tumble is a great skill for rogues, since it lets you cartwheel into flanking positions and start sneak attacking. Bluff and Diplomacy are the two standard skills for talking you and your party out of trouble; if nobody else has those, go for them. If your DM likes traps, make sure you have Search and Disable Device; if you've never run into a trap, you can probably skip out on Disable Device, but Search is still good for finding hidden treasure and secret doors.

I forgot about tumble! I knew there was a reason I started this thread! :D My BF when he played a rogue used that a couple of times and got out of some some awful scrapes that way every so often. Also forgot about Diplomacy, even though I used it a lot even as a Paladin or Healer. Good idea. The DM sometimes uses traps, but doesn't always; because he's often busy with work and classes he tends to look for adventures online, print them out and tweak them to taste, so you can see how some would be trappier than others. :smalltongue: Really so far the traps have seemed to be more the kind of "sticking your nose where it don't belong gets it bit off" type. Remember how I said my BF was a rogue in the previous party setup? Yeah. He got himself possessed that way. And his body kidnapped to some other level of reality or something. :P (We got him back after one our characters - and I am embarassed to admit it wasn't mine but was the group's near-equivalent of a non-Evil aligned :thog: - finally had the bright idea to go to the nearest church and pay 1500 gold to them to get him back, but the poor little rogue never did get XP or treasure from that adventure...)

I had no idea Improved Initiative was even a feat though. That DOES sound like it would be helpful. Do you know where it is in the handbooks/manuals so I can show my group where I'm getting it from and know how to explain how it works to them?

By the way, I can't believe I'm so scatter-brained I forgot to mention that we're playing 3.5 rules (I think). Or at least, those are the books we tend to use, because most of us got into it really recently. :smallsmile:

Glyphic
2007-05-27, 02:59 AM
Improved initiative is in the PHB. It simply adds +4 to your initiative roll. Rather spiffy. Tumble, bluff, diplomacy are great, make sure you know how to get into Flanking position (not only for your sneak attack, but everyone else loves it as well. Actually, know -really- well how your sneak attack works.) Pick up a melee weapon to take advantage of your Sneak attack. If you've got your heart set on cross bows, you may want to take up Rapid reload. It'll allow you to get your full attack in with either hand or light cross bows (normally, a move action to reload).

That all aside, come up with a sparkly personality, don't worry about optimizing entirely. Just play to have fun (and yes, the occasional -stupid- 'mistake' can barrels of fun).

Attilargh
2007-05-27, 03:19 AM
*Leather armor (so it doesn't interefer with DEX but gives me SOME kind of AC better than nothing)
Going by the Wealth by Level tables, a level 7 character should have approximately 19,000 gold pieces' worth of equipment. You might want to consider a magical armour, if you plan on getting aimed at frequently.


*5 daggers (for throwing or even just emergency self-defense, as they don't take as much time to draw)
I think they do. Drawing ammunition, such as shuriken, is a free action, but dagger takes a move action.


*Either a Light Crossbow or a Hand Crossbow (this is one of those things I want advice on; Light Crossbow is more powerful and longer range, but we tend to fight fairly close quarters anyway, and it may or may not be better to have a hand free, what do you think?), + 50 bolts for it
If Moon Elves are anything like normal elves and get the free proficiencies, I just might recommend using a proper long- or shortbow instead. (Magical, preferably.) You deal the same damage, and don't have to stop to reload.

However, getting your Sneak Attack bonus is pretty hard with a ranged weapon, as you have to find a way of denying the targets their Dexterity bonuses to AC. (Invisibility, Hiding and winning Initiative are probably the easiest ways, but they don't last.) With a melee weapon you can just have a friend flank them and start stabbing.


Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) is a nifty skill, although the DCs are in the twenties. Nonetheless, packing a couple of wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) is not a bad idea if you've got the Charisma.

Miraqariftsky
2007-05-27, 08:41 AM
How about a shortsword for the melee? Deals a bit more damage and is still light. You ould also try a spiked chain to keep foes at reach and give ye nifty bonuses with tripping and disarming--- also in keeping with the rogue flavor. If ye want to keep more to the elven flavor, try some sort of spear. Spears are good for poking at traps and can also be thrown. Longspear for reach advantage.

Just my two coppers...

goat
2007-05-27, 09:10 AM
Intelligence is your friend, more than anyone else you live and die by your skills. Ok, except maybe a truenamer, but they're weird.

UMD is good, gives you lots of options, and a wand of blastingness is always helpful if you're up against things immune to sneak attacks.

Crossbows... are iffy. They take a long time to reload, and you don't want to be standing still too much. Hand crossbows have terrible damage and range, but for a sneak attack, they can work. They pretty much require rapid reload, which is a feat you then can't apply elsewhere.

Theodoxus
2007-05-27, 09:27 AM
I'm playing a level 7 rogue in a game at the moment, and I think there are two relatively minor magic items you'll want to get a hold of as soon as possible: Heward's Handy Haversack - which acts as a smaller bag of holding, but with the added bonus of knowing what you want to take out, and putting it at the top (it had to be there in the first place, obviously, it doesn't create items ;) ) The second is a pair of gloves of storing. Put your weapon in one, it grants the Quick Draw feat. Use the other with sleight of hand to palm nearly anything you can grab.

Think about taking perform [dance] and you can rp seducing guys around a campfire, dance close to them and sleight of hand their valuables away all while looking seductive. Female characters are great for that kind of distraction.

Combat expertise -> Improved Feint is an amazing feat progression for rogues - convert up to 5 points of Base Attack Bonus to up to 5 points of AC to help with your tumbling into position, then you can use the Bluff skill to Feint (fake out your opponent) as a move action and get in a sneak attack as a standard attack. If you don't have a primary tank - or if your tank is like mine - and uses a bow primarily, that improved feint can at least let you do decent damage still.

Other than flavor, I wouldn't worry too much on what weapon you use - most of your damage will be coming from sneak attacks. There's statistically little difference between 1d4 + 4d6 and 1d8 + 4d6... You might even want to invest in paired daggers with two weapon fighting. Both daggers are light, and with TWF, you're only suffering a -2 to each hit. At 7th level, with your +5 BAB and I would assume 16+ dex, you'd be at least +6 to hit with each - provided you're taking weapon finesse - which with a dex based race, would be silly not to take.

Paired daggers, you're looking at 1d4+4d6+str (if any) x2, every round you can make a full attack - not too shabby.

Personally, the feat progression I'd take would be:
1st: Weapon Finesse
3rd: Two weapon fighting
6th: Combat Expertise

Also, if you can get magical weapons, I'd go with elemental damage on them - fire, frost or shocking. That extra 1d6 is nice and stacks nicely with sneak.

But more important than anything else, is to have fun (even if you're stuck playing a stinkin' elf ;) )

Theo

Citizen Joe
2007-05-27, 09:51 AM
I don't know how much control you have over your adventures, but you might try setting your party up as a band of thugs. Learn some trap making and then lure your opponents into trapped ambushes. Keep in mind that 'dungeons' are basically the other guy doing the same to you and then turn it against them. Eventually, you'll want to build up a reputation and then you start a protection racket. Start hiring on reliable humanoids and make it clear that they WILL remain loyal, even if it means making them undead. ALWAYS present yourself to the civilized people in a good light... in fact, why don't you pretend to be a paladin while in cities. You should be able to pull that off well.

Attilargh
2007-05-27, 10:12 AM
The second is a pair of gloves of storing. Put your weapon in one, it grants the Quick Draw feat. Use the other with sleight of hand to palm nearly anything you can grab.
At 10,000 gold pieces a glove, she probably won't be getting them any time soon.

'Sides, Sleight of Hand is a waste with those. What can you possibly Sleight that you just have to slip into the Glove instead of a pocket? They're much better to conceal, for example, one's Thieves' Tools, a nifty wand or that extraordinarily rare but huge portrait you just removed from its frame.

But I must admit that the Glove is a very, very cool item.


Combat expertise -> Improved Feint is an amazing feat progression for rogues - convert up to 5 points of Base Attack Bonus to up to 5 points of AC to help with your tumbling into position, then you can use the Bluff skill to Feint (fake out your opponent) as a move action and get in a sneak attack as a standard attack. If you don't have a primary tank - or if your tank is like mine - and uses a bow primarily, that improved feint can at least let you do decent damage still.
I'd take Bag of Tricks (Rust) over Improved Feint if I couldn't get a flanking bonus otherwise. Even with the 10 animals per week restriction. I too used to think 4d6+whatever was pretty decent until I realized that that's what a magical greatsword does. A rogue runs out of hit points much faster than the fighter swinging that greatsword, and the Fighter gets a full attack, to boot.

I'd probably take something instead of the Combat Expertise as well. It serves characters with a higher BAB much better, whereas it decreases the Rogue's effectiveness drastically. You might not get hit, but you ain't contributing much either.

Found a couple of interesting feats in the feats section of the Psionic SRD:
Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance) gives concealment and thus lets one hide anywhere.
Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) lets one re-roll ones on Sneak Attack damage rolls. Not shabby at all.
Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) lets one do sneak attack damage with every arrow fired. Have to get the Sneak Attack in the first place, though.

DSCrankshaw
2007-05-27, 10:46 AM
Hmm, let's see. Item wise, you'll want the following:

Armor: Mithral shirt. Everyone who wears light armor gets a mithral shirt eventually. No armor check penalty, +4 AC, 1100 gp, enchant to taste.

Weapon: Rapier, of course. +1 Keen if you have the gold. If items from the Magic Item Compendium are allowed, see about getting a Lesser Augment Crystal. Rogues will really want Truedeath, but you won't be able to afford it yet: but a nice energy assault crystal gives you the benefits of the flaming or frost properties at a much cheaper price.

Extras: Gloves of Dexterity (of course), Deathstrike Bracers (sneak attack anything three times per day). Amulet of Health's a good buy too. I've seen Wand of Gravestrike recommended, but whether that would work or not depends on some interpretation, so check with DM.

Feats: There are all sorts of ways of doing this, but it really depends on whether you want to make a melee or a ranged rogue. A ranged rogue will need: Point Blank shot, Precise shot, Deadeye shot (from PHB II), and Improved Initiative, to get the full sneak attack potential. A melee rogue doesn't have as much trouble getting sneak attack so can probably forgo Improved Initiative, but she'll want Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, and Deadly Defense (from Complete Scoundrel).

The two non-PHB feats are great ones for rogues. Deadeye shot allows you to treat opponents whom your allies hit as flat-footed when using ranged attacks. Deadly Defense gives you a bonus to damage when fighting defensively, or, most importantly, when using 2 points of Combat Expertise. -2 to Attack for +2 AC and extra damage is a great trade, especially when fighting creatures immune to sneak attacks.

Indon
2007-05-27, 10:52 AM
Carry around a sap. You never know when you'll need to smack someone upside the head and _not_ kill them.

kemmotar
2007-05-27, 10:53 AM
If you are set on crossbows you can get two light crossbows and use before you get into melee (in the surprise round most likely) and then tumble your way in behind the meatshield:smallbiggrin:

Quickdraw is also a really handy feat, as is flick of the wrist. Also two weapon fighting is a must for rogues as more attacks=more sneak attacks.

Thus a nice tactic would be (especially with hand crossbows if you take exotic weapon proficiency for it):
1) shoot with the two crossbows (light or hand) for sneak attack
2) drop crossbows (free action) tumble into melee
3) quicdraw/flick of the wrist to draw your melee weapons for extra sneak attack.

Some interesting spells are true strike, greater invisibility, fly, dimension door (i know this one got me out of many bad situations:smallbiggrin: )

Also you can use two hand crossbows in conjunction with death attack (if you take assassin prestige class) two badies at the same time (or maybe death attack twice in the same round one of them so he needs to get save twice or die, depends on your DM i guess)

In general unless you use crossbows for a specific reasons reverting to longbows i more of a natural RP choice plus you don't need to take rapid reload etc. Also i wouldn't suggest a ranged attack rogue unless you have a lot of greater invisibility scrolls or items. Tends not to work very well any way...

Also summon monster or bag of tricks helps you flank for a round or two an enemy in single combat so you get your sneak attack damage in. Also instead of AC hiding behind the meat shield is much better as is getting miss chances instead of AC. For example if you can get blur instead of +1 to ac then blur is by far better. Tumble as it was said is very important. Not only to pass through enemies without getting attacks of opportunity,but also to reduce falling damage. So you jump off a building and cartweel-land so you don't take damage (depending on your skill check but anyway:smalltongue: )

Some minor items that can prove helpful are boots and cloak of elvenkind for +5 in hide and move silently. As well as other items, for example a +3 kit for disable device is not too expensive and can be quite useful.

Another useful skill is disguise, that's gotten me out of a few situations too, and it can also save your friends too, disguise the whole party into bards and walk out of the inn "please don't shoot us!!we're just travelling bards!" bluff bluff the stupid ogre:smalltongue:

If you DM plays alot of reckless monsters that will give you AoOs then get combat reflexes. I wouldn't suggest hold the line since you shouldn't be there anyway :smalltongue: hehe

One very interesting item is chronocharm of the horizon walker (magic items compendium), costs only 500gp and can get you out of many many sticky situations. Imagine the following. You are faced with a wizard, he casts disintigrate...normally that is as good as death for a rogue unless the wizard misses his ranged touch attack...not good to rely on luck...so what do you do? you take a swift action to move at half your speed (thank you chronocharm), the disintigrate hits the place you should have been but thankfully are not and now you can do something useful to escape...can also get you out of a charge or otherwise anything that could be lethal...The main advantage is that its a swift action so you can even do it when it's not your turn:smallbiggrin:

goat
2007-05-27, 11:06 AM
Personally, the feat progression I'd take would be:
1st: Weapon Finesse
3rd: Two weapon fighting
6th: Combat Expertise


Weapon Finesse requires BAB+1. Level 1 rogues have BAB+0

Jewish_Joke
2007-05-27, 11:13 AM
Invest in UMD, as stated above. If you get turned on to the idea of using magic, ask the party mage to show you the ropes, and consider dabbling in Wizard (Moon elf's favored class) for no xp penalty. You could then pick up a few levels in Arcane Trickster for ranged legerdemain, and you maintain the rogue's flavor and pick up some really useful spells (save the blasting for the wands-which you could use without the skill check now) and you'll maintain your party role (perhaps a lil bit better) without stepping on anyone's toes.

BardicDuelist
2007-05-27, 11:18 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45510

Those feats might help. They are for more of a close combat oriented path.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-27, 11:38 AM
I still think that, as a rogue, if you're going toe to toe with an enemy, you're doing something wrong. Talk to the other players and see what their concepts are. Don't be afraid to give you DM suggestions as to what direction you want the campaign to go. If he's short on time, this actually helps him out.

I think a dimension door ability would also go a long way. A wand would do it, and you might take one level of wizard just so you don't need to do the UMD check. Scribe scroll comes in handy too. Not sure about a door being trapped? Open/close from a distance... can't quite pick that lock... Knock... still resisting... shatter the lock mechanism.

Driderman
2007-05-27, 11:39 AM
I'll have to go with the basic melee rogue build here: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative are very nice feats for a tumbling rogue that likes to stab some kidneys. Two Weapon fighting is also nice, but not so much. You might want to dualclass with some fighter levels if you want to do Two Weapon Fighting.
Of course, I'm a bit of a puritan so you won't see me suggesting anything that isn't in the core books... :smallamused:

You will of course, want a high dexterity and you will definitely want to spend coin on getting some decent magic armor, moreso than you'll want to spend money on magic items. Your sneak attack bonus should be enough added damage for starters, so you'll just need +1 enchantments to overcome Damage Reduction.

Orak
2007-05-27, 11:48 AM
An idea about a tactic for your rogue, instead of just equipment. When you are in an unfamiliar or unfriendly situation and not yet in combat use full defence. With 5 ranks in tumble it gives you +6 to armor. Your only other action is a standard move, with not AoO possible. The benefit is that with +1 mithril armor, a ring of defence +1, an amulet of natural armor +1 and 16 dex you will have 26 AC. More importantly you will have a touch AC of 19, making you a hard target for creatures with unfriendly touches and nasty ray weapons.

kemmotar
2007-05-27, 11:54 AM
Well, if you're a puritan and you only go for stuff in the PhB you're seriously limiting you play style. I think that anything official 3.5 or something reasonable which the DM has okd from 3.0 is fine...besides, it lets you customise your character to the flavor you want and have fun with it. For example you could make a complete scoundrel bard or rogue that did or tried anything just cause he is amizingly lucky and has always been so he doesn't realize the risks of anything!
There was an amazing feat that turned natural 1 into natural 20s if you had 2 or 3 luck feats!you now have a 10% chance for automatic success:smallbiggrin:

Also as it was mentioned you could combine a caster class and go for semi casting prestige classes and even order of the bow initiate...though i never liked half spellcasting classes since at you level you will be less than average in both rogue and wizard...so i prefer when taking a spellcasting class to not miss any spellcasting levels. However, one good suggestion which every single one of my rogues has followed is multiclassing into a fighter for BAB and feats. Best idea is to take two levels in fighter after your third level of rogue and then continue all the way with rogue. that way you get a feat in level 1,3,4,5,6 which will get you started out quite well. On the plus side, if you go human you get 6 feats by level 6 which is pretty much all you're gonna need till level 9 so you can get Feats that are for higher levels.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-27, 12:25 PM
Well, rogues do it from behind.
Paladins never do it from behind...
That'll be the first and most important thing you must realize. :smallcool:
I (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15561) have (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15795) some (http://thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3565) characters (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3127) who (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3306) vehemently (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15797) disagree (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15796). :smallamused:

Anyway, playing a successful rogue depends on what you want to do with it. Are you looking for a combat character, skill monkey, trap expert, con artist, burglar, or what? There are loads of directions you can go with the class, and they all depend on skill loadout. The rogue gets a lot of skill points, but there's so many class skills that you still won't be able to take them all.

Quietus
2007-05-27, 12:55 PM
Well, if you're going for a somewhat optimized approach, then from what I gather, the basic recommendations from these forums are :

Melee :
Two-weapon fighting chain, potentially quick-draw, weapon finesse

Advantages of this, if you were to go : Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, then Quick Draw, is that if you go around with a pair of daggers, and carry a few extra daggers around as well, you'll not only be able to play in melee a bit, but due to the Quick-Draw feat, you can throw them at your full base attack, as well. Normally it's a move action to draw a weapon, then standard to throw it as an attack. If you decide not to worry about the throwing bit, then consider replacing Quick Draw with Improved Initiative.


Ranged :
Harder to optimize, but Precise Shot will be good for not shooting your friends in the back, and Improved Precise Shot negates any penalties for ANY cover/concealment less than full. Both require point-blank shot. If you could swing some custom repeating hand crossbows, the two-weapon fighting styles could work here, as well.

With ranged two-weapons, I'd probably look at Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting. If you can't do the two-weapon fighting thing due to not being able to get repeating hand crossbows, use your elven proficiency in the longbow and replace two-weapon fighting with Improved Initiative or Rapid Shot. Rapid Shot is nice because more shots = more sneak attacks. There's even a feat in Complete Warrior that lets you negate the -2 penalty on all your attacks from using it.

Runa
2007-05-27, 11:47 PM
Whoa! I guess I was right to realize how there could be different approaches to this!

Some important things to note though:

1.) Our DM doesn't necessarily pay much attention to the Wealth by Level guidelines. We're usually poorer than that (though we have gotten some cool swag in the past, including my old character's armor and tower sheild which made gave her an AC of like 26....). So anything expensive is probably out of the question for the moment. ^^;; Mithral armor sounds AWESOME though.

2.) The way the new party is going to be set up, Improved Initiative may prove useless. So far we've got a powerful Monk and a necromancer in the party; BF says that ideally when we get into a fight the Monk will cast Bless on the party and the necromancer will cast Bane on the enemy, before the fight starts. Also, BF has said that "in battle [I'm] going to want to stay a little ways away" from the necromancer, because of the spells he's going to be using. Hence (between that and having used one before with a different character) the attraction to the crossbow for me, as well as throwing weapons and stuff that could trip up the enemy (aside from whips, which take more proficiency levels to use properly don't they?).

3.) The way our DM works, he doesn't bother adding time to draw daggers (he did make a deal out of our previous characters' longsword and armor when we got caught by surprise while resting, though, and rightly so as that stuff was freaking heavy :P). Daggers can also be thrown, which can't be done easily with larger blades and I figured could come in handy (though the rapier sounds like a good idea for closer melee).

4.) The rest of the party is apparently going to consist of a Monk with a Vow of Poverty, a Necromancer, a half-dragon Ranger (who may or may not also have Psionic abilities. This would be our :belkar: in the group), and a (human, I think) Fighter. You can see how I'm concerned about "having something to do", I think. :P

5.) My dex is going to be 18.

6.) I can't remember what my cha was going to be but it was lower than 18. Note that these were determined by the "if you don't choose to roll for it" option in the PhB. We've decided together that I will be rolling, and if I get better pointage than the basic amount awarded when you don't roll, then I'll stick with the rolls instead. I'm thinking of adding in to cha and int more because it sounds like it could come in extremely handy.

7.) I think in short I want to create a character who can at least hold her own in both close-quarters melee and distance-fighting (because it sounds like a lot of our strategy will be "other people pick off enemies, then the necromancer comes in and uses the corpses against the remaining enemies", and there's something about one or two party members having and casting Destruction?), tumble sounds like a good addition since she'll probably need to pull out and back fast sometimes to give the casters more room to work without getting hurt. Good of course at detecting traps and sneaking about and the like. Who occasionally cons folks. That seems like it might be both a useful addition to the party and fun to play.

Our adventures tend to be combat-heavy, with a combination of a lot of things like bugbears and orcs randomly attacking us, and a BBEG or two, who're often casters because each variation of the party has had at least one caster. Our adventures will probably get even more epic-y though with all the high-powered characters being tossed into the mix.



I (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15561) have (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15795) some (http://thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3565) characters (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3127) who (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=3306) vehemently (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15797) disagree (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=15796). :smallamused:

Anyway, playing a successful rogue depends on what you want to do with it. Are you looking for a combat character, skill monkey, trap expert, con artist, burglar, or what? There are loads of directions you can go with the class, and they all depend on skill loadout. The rogue gets a lot of skill points, but there's so many class skills that you still won't be able to take them all.

Skill monkey...? What's that?

Attilargh
2007-05-28, 02:49 AM
2.) The way the new party is going to be set up, Improved Initiative may prove useless.

...

Hence (between that and having used one before with a different character) the attraction to the crossbow for me, as well as throwing weapons and stuff that could trip up the enemy (aside from whips, which take more proficiency levels to use properly don't they?).
Without a good Initiative modifier, it's damn hard to get Sneak Attack damage with a ranged weapon. A character is Flat-Footed until he takes his first action in combat, and Flat-Footed characters lose their Dexterity bonus to AC, making them eligible for Sneak Attack. Ergo, you want to act before your enemies.

Example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html) In game terms, Haley starts a surprise round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise), and subsequently wins Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm), giving her two Sneak Attacks.


Skill monkey...? What's that?
A character who can be trusted with various skill checks. A smart rogue is a perfect example, as he can search for traps on a door, disable them, pick the lock and then sneak into the room beyond without alerting anyone.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 07:22 AM
Also, my question is how will the monk cast bless? Do you mean cleric?

Weapons with reach are good, except the best is spiked chain since it can be used at both reach and melee and you can use it to trip and yes you first need combat expertise and then improved trip. You also need exotic weapon proficiency and weapon finesse. Improved trip so you don't get AoO when tripping and you get +4 in your to trip check. Weapon finesse so you can hit something and exotic weapon proficiency so you can use the spiked chain without penalties in your attack roll. But this would mean you are making a melee based rogue...

Are you going to start level 1 or higher? Also what kind of monsters does the DM throw at you? Does he play them smart or rp according to class..i.e. does the bugbear move around not caring to protect itself from its enemies and focuses on killing stuff and the human rogue takes care to move around and trap his enemies etc? Or is every monster planning, flanking and trapping the PCs

Also if you are confident in your understanding of the game you can give a thought to psychic warrior levels, especially if you want to melee so you can also manifest powers to heal yourself, buff yourself etc...a nice feat then would be up the walls. This allows you to walk on the walls as if they were...well not vertical:smalltongue: ...for the xena effect

Attilargh
2007-05-28, 07:28 AM
Improved trip so you don't get AoO when tripping and you get +4 in your to trip check
Tripping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) with a weapon does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. I do agree that Improved Trip is a good feat if that's what you want to do, but I can't see why a rogue would want to trip anyone. It's an opposed attack roll followed by a Strength check.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 07:37 AM
Tripping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) with a weapon does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. I do agree that Improved Trip is a good feat if that's what you want to do, but I can't see why a rogue would want to trip anyone. It's an opposed attack roll followed by a Strength check.

not necessarily strength check, its also dexterity. In fact the two "enemies" get a strength or dexterity check to determine the outcome of the trip attempt and they use the higher stat. A question on this would be, is someone prone also flatfooted? Tripping heavily depends on what kind of campaigns you guys play. If its cities or mainly humanoid stuff (medium size) then it might be very helpful, if you're usually going against stuff huge or bigger then tripping it is kinda impossible unless you yourself are bigger than medium. I'm gonna make my goliath monk large so he counts as huge for the purpose of tripping so another +8 against medium creatures, +4 against large ones and no penalty for huge creatures...on the other hand if you are medium, you get -4 for large, -8 for huge etc...

Attilargh
2007-05-28, 08:01 AM
not necessarily strength check, its also dexterity. In fact the two "enemies" get a strength or dexterity check to determine the outcome of the trip attempt and they use the higher stat.
The tripper rolls Strength, the defender can oppose it with Strength or Dexterity.


A question on this would be, is someone prone also flatfooted?
No, they only get a -4 on their attacks and AC against melee attacks.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 08:54 AM
The tripper rolls Strength, the defender can oppose it with Strength or Dexterity.

True, i'd missed that, thanx

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-28, 09:01 AM
Remember- a rogue need not enter combat to be effective in combat. Deception and trickery are your best features. You alone have the wit to overcome obstacles in complex and hilarious ways that usually end up in your favor. Just be sure to pick up the right mix of useful skills and remember that learning several languages can actually be extremely helpful for when you're trying to bluff the goblins into thinking that you used to be a goblin until you were cursed by humans and now want your revenge.

Runa
2007-05-28, 05:53 PM
Remember- a rogue need not enter combat to be effective in combat. Deception and trickery are your best features. You alone have the wit to overcome obstacles in complex and hilarious ways that usually end up in your favor. Just be sure to pick up the right mix of useful skills and remember that learning several languages can actually be extremely helpful for when you're trying to bluff the goblins into thinking that you used to be a goblin until you were cursed by humans and now want your revenge.

See, it is scenarios like that that make me look forward so much to playing a rogue. XD

I think one of my main concerns is just having something to do during fights with all the (apparently) massively-powered characters running around in the party, but it sounds like I want to be somewhat of a "skill monkey", basically. I'm thinking that with the natural elven proficiency stuff with bows, I may just switch to short bow from crossbow, though, and pick up a rapier for melee sneak attacks and such. Tripping sounds like an awful lot of work to make it well, work, though (not surprisingly), so yeah, not going with that probably, as fun as it may sound.

I should note that when I say "distance-fighting" I mean "not up close" but I don't mean "80ft away". The environs we usually end up in aren't much more than 30 ft across most of the time (a lot dungeons and clearings and small rooms), though the DM may change this with the necromancer in the party for all I know.

As to how the monk can cast Bless, it sounds like the guy's multiclassing Monk/Cleric actually, with Vow of Poverty and a bunch of other stuff that apparently makes him good in a fight (that bit about the Vow has been a running gag with us for at least two weeks. The last character he played was one of those casting classes that needs components for their spells and he could never afford any of them, so, he finds this thing called "Vow of Poverty"... :smallbiggrin: Perfect fit.). Don't ask me what, I'm not sure, I'd have to ask R. what he's doing with the character exactly. But basically, you know those little old guys in the Kung Fu movies that can defy gravity just about and wipe the floor with with just about everybody? He's basically going to be one of those. :P Only not old. And maybe not so short.

So far from what I have gleaned here my biggest concern (other than having fun, of course :smalltongue: ) would be putting points into Tumble - I'm going to be needing to get out of the way FAST an awful lot of the time, plus what others said about the tumbling into flanking/sneak attack positions. So definitely doing that, and putting some points into Bluff, Diplomacy, and probably stuff like Detect Trap (that is one of the skills you can put into, right? I still don't have my character sheet or the PhB with me), Disable Device, Sense Motive, all that good stuff.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-28, 06:03 PM
Actually, you get shortbow and rapier proficiencies from rogue.

Use the longbow, Runa, use the Longbow.

Attilargh
2007-05-29, 02:04 AM
Detect Trap (that is one of the skills you can put into, right? I still don't have my character sheet or the PhB with me)
That's a part of Search, which is indeed a very useful skill. I recommend bookmarking the D20 System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/), which has pretty much all the basic rules one will need, and more.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-29, 07:15 AM
Search can help you find traps, but that's not its best ability for you. No, it's best for when you "accidentally" find yourself in a king's treasure room with several bags of holding and need to make sure you don't leave a single gold coin behind. Otherwise, how will the king know that his security is terrible and needs a total revamp?

kemmotar
2007-05-29, 07:32 AM
All for the good of the kingdom my lord:smallbiggrin:

basic skills are:
bluff, diplomacy, search, disable device, open lock, tumble, hide, move silently, disguise, some knowledges can be useful, perform lap dance (for the female elf, charisma is your friend), gather information, use rope can be useful (for kinky stuff, tying up hostages, going down cliffs etc) and anything else you can think up a good use for, be creative. Spellcraft and use magic device (invaluable), sleight of hand depending on you type of character (goes perfectly with lap dance, dance them into a daze, pick their valuables off their pockets without anyone noticing)

If you're using the point system for ability scores then i would suggest you get 16 for intelligence, dexterity and charisma, 8 for strength (you're not gonna use it, especially as an archer) and then the rest as best you can:smallbiggrin:

Otherwise, if you roll the stats that is, choose your two best rolls for dexterity and intelligence, then charisma, give the lowest to strength and then wisdom and constitution i would suggest constitution...leave the wisdom based spells for those who got more:smalltongue:

Dausuul
2007-05-29, 07:45 AM
As far as skill selection goes, Hide and Move Silently are no-brainers. So is Use Magic Device--wands, anyone? If there's no one else in the party with Spot and Listen, you should definitely max those out, too.

Beyond that, it really depends on a) what your DM likes to throw at you, and b) what you like to play. It sounds like you're into social interaction, so Bluff and Diplomacy are obvious choices; Intimidate is optional but handy. Search is a good one for finding traps and secret doors and general utility, but you can probably skip Disable Device; your necromancer boyfriend, with all the expendable undead minions, has trap-removal covered. :smallbiggrin: Open Locks is optional, since there are so many other ways of getting past locked doors, including knock spells, knock wands (which you can use yourself with Use Magic Device), barbarians with axes, dimension door, et cetera.

Tumble is indeed a very good thing to have, but you can probably stop investing once your net Tumble bonus is +14. At that point, you already automatically make the Tumble check to move through a threatened square or to reduce falling damage.

For weapons, I've always favored dual wielding shortswords, or rapier-and-shortsword, for rogues. That lets you make the most of your sneak attack when you can get it, especially with all those friendly undead clogging up the battlefield and flanking stuff for you, but it does require investing a couple of feat slots in Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting.

If you're set on being an archery specialist, pick up Rapid Shot and see if you can talk your boyfriend into buffing you with greater invisibility whenever you go into battle (assuming he's a wizard-specialist necromancer as opposed to the dread necromancer from Heroes of Horror). Dual ranged sneak attacks every round = win for a rogue.

kemmotar
2007-05-29, 07:52 AM
Oh, and if a gollem comes around i suggest playing dead:smalltongue:
If it's undead then probably the necromancer will take them with him somehow or the cleric will turn/rebuke the lot of them so no problem there...in any case, the only thing you should be doing in the above cases is saving the excitement for those that can do damage (such is the fate of the rogue)...

If you can sneak attack it, do it...if you can't you're better off not drawing attention to yourself...It'll only annoy the creature and cause it to have the undeniable desire to squish you...something surprisingly easy!

Let's face it...sneak attack is you best skill...if that don't work, you're in trouble!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-29, 07:58 AM
Golems are easy to deal with, actually. They're very unintelligent, you see. They're usually only programmed with "Smash, kill. If dead, stop smashing and killing". This is where you climb up to somewhere it can't get to, wait a while, then sneak past it. You've got high hide and move silently- let those other goobers in your party fight the spell-and-damage resistant death machine.

ravenkith
2007-05-29, 10:41 AM
Rogue + Ranged = No.

Sorry. The feats and the rules just aren't there to really support the sniper-esque characters.

If you're playing a rogue, you need to basically go two weapon style.

Why?

Because, quite frankly, rogues are 'paper tigers'. They are capable of dishing out a ton of damage, but not capable of taking much (at all).

With only a d6 hit die, and the inability to wear heavy armor, you're going to find yourself going down. A LOT.

The quicker you can dispatch your foe, the less chances they have to eat up your small amount of hp.

Going two weapon style can literally double the number of your attacks.

In addition, Dwarves FTW.

Not only do they get darkvision, one of the best things a rogue can have, the also get a +2 con bonus, and even more benefits on fort saves vs. poison.

Seriously, Dwarven Rogues are very nice.

So let's get started:
Race: Dwarven
Class: Fighter 2/Rogue 5
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting tree, as applicable.
Skills:
You MUST have these skills:
Tumble, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Move Silently and Hide.

Max ranks in MS, H, Tumble, Search, Open Lock and Disable Device. No negotiations.

Equipment:

Enchanted items are recommended. They're in the DMG.

Shortswords. They're light weapons, and they have a good crit range. Extra damage dice are great, as are straight up plusses. Preferred eventual weapons: +5 Shock Frost Flame Acid Force Stabbers (Essentially, each weapon bounces 5d6 + 1d4 + 5 Damage. Alternatively, put ghost touch on the weapon at an early stage (before frost).
Weapon Progression:
+1
+1 Shock
+1 Shock, Acid
+1 Shock, Acid, Frost
+1 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire
+2 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire
+3 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire
+4 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire
+5 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire
+5 Shock, Acid, Frost, Fire, Force

Mithril Chain Shirt. It's a chain shirt, but lighter and less restrictive. It's also mundane and only 1100 gp. Adding bonus points to ac is the priority. Then you can get funky with the extras.

Cloak/Boots of Elvenkind. You don't have to be elven to wear these, and they are cheap and useful for rogues.

Amulet of Natural armor: Yes please!

Ring of Protection: adds to saves and ac? Um can you say no brainer?

Notes:

Elves are fragile. Do not play elven rogues, despite their high dex. They go down more often than 2 dollar ladies of negotiable virtue, primarily because of their hit to con.

Also, prestige classes are fun, but not necessary. Telflemmar shadowlord(Unapproachable East) could be good for you. As could shadowdancer(DMG). Try not to trade off too many sneak dice. Also, DOn't take less than 13 levels of rogur, as this wil net you the two special abilities that are most worthwhile: crippling strike and improved evasion.

Just some thoughts.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-29, 10:52 AM
Actually, I fovor gray elves for rogues. They have INT and DEX bonuses, even with the con penalty.

Ring of protection doesn't add to ac :(. I often find imp evasion to be less useful than skill mastery. Taking 10 on most handy skills is really quite useful.

Renegade Paladin
2007-05-29, 10:56 AM
If you're using the point system for ability scores then i would suggest you get 16 for intelligence, dexterity and charisma, 8 for strength (you're not gonna use it, especially as an archer) and then the rest as best you can:smallbiggrin:
That last part is horrible advice. Bows take Strength penalties to damage, even though they don't gain the bonuses.

Because, quite frankly, rogues are 'paper tigers'. They are capable of dishing out a ton of damage, but not capable of taking much (at all).
That doesn't make them a paper tiger; the "paper tiger" analogy means something that looks dangerous but is no threat at all, not a threat that is fragile. Just saying. :smalltongue:

Ring of Protection: adds to saves and ac? Um can you say no brainer?
I can't say that about the choice for the ring, but I can say that about this statement. Rings of protection do not add to saves. Not even a little bit.

Ring of protection doesn't add to ac :(.
What are you talking about? Of course they do; it's the only thing they do.

ravenkith
2007-05-29, 11:14 AM
Sorry, double checked: ring of prot adds a deflection bonus to ac, but nothing to saves...


Huh, what was I thinking of, there???? 3.0? I don't know.

However, a circlet of wisdom (modified amulet, allowed by customization rules), gloves of dex, and belt of con (again, modified) will boost your respective saves nicely with a priority on CON, DEX and WIS, in that order, due to HP and AC being mitigating factors.

This is predicated on some basic premises:
0: You do not want to constantly be making new characters.
1. No matter how high your AC is, people will hit you at least 5% of the time.
2. Making your AC high means that people will only hit you 5% of the time, as opposed to, 50% or 25% of the time.
3. Will saves only become truly important after 9th or 10th level, when dominate and slay living become a factor. Up until that point, fail a will save, and it'll hurt, possibly incapacitate you, but won't necessarily lead to character death.
4. Having a low con means you are vampire (or any other con-draining effect) bait.
5. Rogue = Traps. Traps = Poison. Poison = FOrt Save.

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-29, 11:14 AM
Don't get plusses on your weapons. Take loads of every-hit damage amps, and let the party caster buff your swords with Greater Magic Weapon each morning. Buy him two Pearls of Power if he gets moody.

ravenkith
2007-05-29, 11:20 AM
Don't get plusses on your weapons. Take loads of every-hit damage amps, and let the party caster buff your swords with Greater Magic Weapon each morning. Buy him two Pearls of Power if he gets moody.

While theoretically possible, these plusses don't last all day.

They also require you to rely on someone else.

...And they don't stack with existing enchantments...the weapon enchantment will supercede that of the spell, as for all intents and purposes, a +1 shock, frost, acid, flame is the same as a + 5 weapon, iirc.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-29, 11:25 AM
An awesome late level twin weapon set for a rogue-

+5 wounding shortsword of speed
and
+5 flame, frost, and shock shortsword of wounding

You'll always get extra dice against everything you fight, and regular humanoids should just bend over. Wounding normally doesn't seem to be that great, but it starts being fantastic when you're hitting them with 7 CON damage every full attack, on top of three elements of damage and sneak attack if you did it right. You'll be able to win almost any duel against non-quirky or cheesed melee'ers, and for once be seriously harmful to spellcasters that mistakenly let you get too close.

Your problem, then, is the same as it always was. Plants, constructs, undead, and the like. Fortunately, they're all easy to sneak by :P

NOTE: Combine the above with crippling strike to ruin everyone's day when you sneak up for a full attack. Even the wizard will be in awe.

Dizlag
2007-05-29, 12:00 PM
From the sounds of it, a ranged rogue character will fit nicely into the party's tactics. Rune, you said most of the areas are up to 30' large? Nice, because your sneak attacks with a ranged weapon only work up to 30' away from your target.

As a few pointed out regarding feats, I suggest the following:

Point Blank Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot) - grants a +1 attack and damage within 30', nice synergy with your 30' range requirement for sneak attacks and allows the next two feats
Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot) - negates the chance to hit party members while they are in melee, the monk will appreciate it
- an extra attack at a -2 penalty to all attacks isn't bad at all, especially if you get your sneak attack with this shot as well

And that leads me to seconding the suggestion of having the necromancer cast greater invisibility on you to start a fight. You'll get all your sneak attacks this way or if you go before the baddies in the first round. Otherwise, after that first shot the baddies are no longer denied their Dex bonus to AC and will be able to see you.

Again, Hide/Move Silently/Tumble (up to +14 bonus)/Use Magic Device are staples of the class. After these, you'll want to tweek your skills to the role you'll be playing or what you want to play or what you're comfortable playing. Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are skills you've roleplayed with in the past so you might want to stick with them for familiarity reasons. Search is another nice skill to find traps, secret doors, phat lewts hidden in secret compartments, etc.

You're original list of equipment is pretty nice. Add some pieces of chalk to mark your way or outline the pressure plates for party members. Not sure if you had flasks of oil, but toss a few of them for a slippery surface and then toss an alchemist fire on them. Oofda! Ouchies! Grab a couple [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag]Tanglefoot Bags (]Rapid Shot[/url) to get out of a "sticky situation" (yes, pun intended =) as well.

For magical items, the Mithril Shirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt) mentioned is a very nice choice and toss a +1 enchantment on it for an extra 1000gp. The Handy Haversack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack) mentioned before is very nice as well. If you've max'd out Use Magic Device, get a Wand of Magic Missile (5th level) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) to hit those baddies that are immune to your sneak attacks because every bit of damage a round helps. Gloves of Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +1 (on all saves), and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 will all help as well. And don't forget a magical bow as well ... a +1 bow will do for now and get it enchanted up a bit later.

Again, it sounds like a rogue archer will have a lot of synergy with your party make up. From there, just have fun!

Good luck!

Dizlag

PlatinumJester
2007-05-29, 12:09 PM
Get an elven court blade (races if the wild) d8 finesse weapon
Mithral Breastplte is always good.
Sleight of Hand so you can swipe stuff out of treasure chests for extra GP
Get some of the following feats - Leadership, Improved Intiative, Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Spring Attack, Improved Critical, Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes.

Runa
2007-05-30, 11:39 AM
First, I wanna thank Attilargh briefly for the link to d20srd.org. That site is like CRAZY helpful. :D Totally bookmarked it, and I've already printed out the stuff that had on the Rogue class and on Elf as a race, because it had some handy details I wanted to keep at hand, and that way I don't have to write them down on the back of my character sheet (which is what I usually do with that kind of thing). Also was able to compare some of the weapons without always checking the BF's PhB, which is always nice.

Second: here's the update on what's what:

We didn't get to play last night on account of our DM wanted to get rested up or have extra time to set up the adventure or something (he came back recently from a multi-week trip to Europe with his family, so he was a little jet-lagged and out of it, and can be forgiven), the game has been moved to Thursday (sometime after 5 PM Eastern, depending on when everyone gets there). Which is great, because it gives me extra time to build my character. Sadly, I don't have my character sheet with me today, as the BF keeps them with his in his PhB and it didn't look like too much else needed adjusting that wouldn't be able to be done quickly, so he took it with him per usual. I did however have access to them last night and figured out a whole bunch of stuff in addition to getting the low-down on what some of the others are doing.

We are playing level 8 characters; the BF is playing a Dread Necromancer specifically. My options for money are a.) use the same amount my old character had. or b.) use the Wealth by Level guidelines. What do those say about a Level 8 Rogue? I don't have a copy of the DMG, and I haven't been able to find it from Googling either.

I rolled for ability scores again and got slightly better overall. Here's how it parses out to Ability Modifiers (not necessarily in order of appearance as the BF took my character sheet with him again, but I do remember the numbers as I used them to calculate skills a whole bunch last night and had to therefore remember and write them like a million times :smalltongue: ):

DEX: +5
CON: +1
CHA: +3
INT: +2
STR: +2
WIS: +0

HP are at 41. Haven't upgraded armor from ordinary Leather Armor yet, so my AC is currently 17 as Leather Armor gives +2 to AC.

Can't remember exact numbers for a lot of the skill points, sadly, but after skill synergies, ranks, and racial bonuses were calculated in, they were overall some pretty good ones as I recall. I think I have 10 in Bluff, 12 in Tumble and Diplomacy, some other pretty decent pluses in Listen and Spot, Hide and Move Silently (at least 10 each in the latter two) were of course nice and high though I can't recall just how high; also put some into Jump (partly because it also helps boost Tumble) and the like, and I've got at least 5 ranks in Use Rope, though I think the plus for that ends up higher because of a skill synergy in something. There were some other ones that were fairly high though I can't recall which ones off the top of my head.

I've picked Goblin and Orcish as my two bonus languages, because hey, I figure, there are some fun bluffs I could probably pull off with those (especially Orcish. The DM seems to use an awful lot of Orcs or part-Orcs in the campaigns he picks). ;)

For weapons, I switched the Hand Crossbow to a Longbow (probably a Composite Longbow) as per advice here, and have picked up a Rapier as well. Keeping the daggers though. They're small, fairly light, throwable, and you just ever know when you're going to need a dagger. :smallwink:


From the sounds of it, a ranged rogue character will fit nicely into the party's tactics. Rune, you said most of the areas are up to 30' large? Nice, because your sneak attacks with a ranged weapon only work up to 30' away from your target.

Cool. :)



As a few pointed out regarding feats, I suggest the following:

Point Blank Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot) - grants a +1 attack and damage within 30', nice synergy with your 30' range requirement for sneak attacks and allows the next two feats
Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot) - negates the chance to hit party members while they are in melee, the monk will appreciate it
- an extra attack at a -2 penalty to all attacks isn't bad at all, especially if you get your sneak attack with this shot as well

Took all three. :) As I'm going to be Level 8 now, I also will get a new feat next level, which will probably happen next week or the week after (our DM tries to make sure we level up at least every couple of weeks, for the most part). Any suggestions?



And that leads me to seconding the suggestion of having the necromancer cast greater invisibility on you to start a fight. You'll get all your sneak attacks this way or if you go before the baddies in the first round. Otherwise, after that first shot the baddies are no longer denied their Dex bonus to AC and will be able to see you.

I'll bring it up.



Again, Hide/Move Silently/Tumble (up to +14 bonus)/Use Magic Device are staples of the class. After these, you'll want to tweek your skills to the role you'll be playing or what you want to play or what you're comfortable playing. Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are skills you've roleplayed with in the past so you might want to stick with them for familiarity reasons. Search is another nice skill to find traps, secret doors, phat lewts hidden in secret compartments, etc.

I think I for the most part did pretty much what you were advising. :)



You're original list of equipment is pretty nice. Add some pieces of chalk to mark your way or outline the pressure plates for party members. Not sure if you had flasks of oil, but toss a few of them for a slippery surface and then toss an alchemist fire on them. Oofda! Ouchies! Grab a couple [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag]Tanglefoot Bags (]Rapid Shot[/url) to get out of a "sticky situation" (yes, pun intended =) as well.

I love the way you think :smallamused:

I have added 10 flasks of oil (and a few extra Alchemist's Fire flasks), and some chalk, to the supply list.



For magical items, the Mithril Shirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt) mentioned is a very nice choice and toss a +1 enchantment on it for an extra 1000gp. The Handy Haversack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack) mentioned before is very nice as well. If you've max'd out Use Magic Device, get a Wand of Magic Missile (5th level) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) to hit those baddies that are immune to your sneak attacks because every bit of damage a round helps. Gloves of Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +1 (on all saves), and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 will all help as well. And don't forget a magical bow as well ... a +1 bow will do for now and get it enchanted up a bit later.

As soon as I get an idea of what my level of gold is going to be, I'll take those into serious consideration. :)



Again, it sounds like a rogue archer will have a lot of synergy with your party make up. From there, just have fun!

Good luck!

Thanks! :)

Dizlag[/QUOTE]

Stevenson
2007-05-30, 11:45 AM
Depending on what kind of rogue you are, rings of spider climb can rock or be totally useless. I kinda played as a ninja who used one (kinda meaning I was taking over for a player who couldn't make it.), who had one level in Assassin by that time. "Death from above" never was truer.

Anyway. Be sure to keep a sap on you at all times.

Telonius
2007-05-30, 12:02 PM
One item that has been absolutely essential to my Rogue is a Ring of Blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking)(or some form of the Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm)spell). Why, you ask? Well, first of all, it gives enemies a 50% miss chance against you. Very nice, if you're a squishy little Rogue with a mere d6 as a hit die. But, more importantly ...

You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.


And you know what happens when a Rogue's target is denied Dexterity bonus to AC, right? :smallamused:

geez3r
2007-05-30, 12:34 PM
This is my own advice, take it if you want; don't if you don't.

Never do anything the way you are "supposed" to. This is a philosophy that you can put into nearly any situation where the rouge shines.

Examples:

You are "supposed" to fall victim to traps to prevent you from reaching you goal; rouges disable the trap and move on.

You are "supposed" to use a key to gain access to a locked area; rouges pick the lock.

You are "supposed" to earn money through hard work, time and effort; rouges steal everything that isn't bolted down.

You are "supposed" to fight fair; rouges strike from the shadows without warning or mercy.

Get the idea? At their core, rouges excel at tasks that can either be 'good' or 'evil' at any given point in time. Most of what they do is 'chaotic' as well, and are rarely 'lawful'. I honestly have no idea how to play a lawful rouge, but you're playing a chaotic one so that advice has no relevance here anyways. For playing a CG rouge, you share the same desired end result that a LG person does, but you do it in the exact opposite way. When in doubt, ask yourself "what Robin Hood would do?"

Now that we have the fluffy out of the way, time for the crunchy. With their d6 HD and their sneak attack damage, rouges avoid close (or at the least, fair) combat like the plague. However, if you see yourself as a melee skirmisher, pick up Spring Attack and any item that increases your speed, so you can dash in and out without getting hurt yourself. If you see yourself as a ranged combatant, take every feat that has Point Blank Shot as a prereq, and take the feats that you think are best for your character. For skills take max ranks in the following: Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disbale Device, and Search. You should fill out your remaining skills based on what skills you see yourself using alot in the future, and what skills are not present in the rest of the party. You know your party and DM better than I do, s this part is up to you, but you should have a high INT to get even more skill points.

Basically when playing a rouge, think outside the box and then steal the box once you're done thinking.

ravenkith
2007-05-30, 12:42 PM
I'll say it again:

Rogue + Ranged = bad idea.

The fact is, it's very hard to take advantage of one of the rogue's key class features - the sneak die - when you are using a ranged weapon, because of a combination of factors:

1. The sneak die rules - you can only get the benefit of SD when your opponent is flat-footed or denied his dex. You also never get sneak dice if you are more than thirty feet away from an opponant.

2. The limited means by which to cause flat-footedness, or loss of dex - these include:
a. being invisible
b. attacking from a hidden position (after your first attack, you no longer get sneak dice, since you have revealed yourself, unless you make a very high sneak check).
c. flanking an opponent ( requires 'threaten').
d. feinting, which requires you to 'threaten' an opponent.
e. catching someone by surprise.

Yes, you can use a ring of blinking*, but you also have a miss chance.

Being invisible all the time is hard (read: expensive) to do. You'll either have to shell out a ton of cash for the ability to use sneak 1 a round, every other round (a ring of invisibility), or pay a small amount for a wand of invisibilty for the same function, eventually having to replace it.

Hiding works great. Until you shoot them, they spot you, storm over and disembowel you. When you are only thirty feet away, it's not going to be hard to get to you and still get an attack. This problem only gets worse at higher levels, as everybody has higher hit points and it becomes next to impossible to kill anyone with one hit.

Note: you are already playing at the higher levels I was talking about.

Remember, ranged weapons don't threaten, so you can never 'flank' an opponent, and you don't get any benefit unless you are the one doing the flanking. You also can't feint with a ranged weapon. So much for those two.

Catching someone by surprise only works if you sneak up on them (hard to do with a party composed of anything but all rogues), and then, only until they get their first turn.

When so many things are already immune to sneak dice (constructs, plants, oozes, undead), why make it any harder for you to be useful in combat?

go melee two weaponer, up tumble, and roll into position for flanking with your allies-you will be much happier, and you will get your sneak dice all the time against anything that is NOT one of the aforementioned types, as opposed to one time in thirty.

While conceptually, the idea of a rogue killing someone at range is a good fit, mechanically, it just doesn't work in D&D.

You're much better off going with a spellcaster for ranged death. The rogue is a master of sneaking in and slitting someone's throat, or tumbling behind an enmy who's fighting the meatshield, distracting him, and stabbing him in a kidney while his concentration is elsewhere.

Oh sure, you can play a ranged rogue. But you'll suck in combat, and be letting down the team by not carrying your own weight. Don't try to do damage at range: that's the wizard's damn job.

*The ring of blink is an ok idea, but you will, statistically, automatically miss 1/5th of the time, thanks to the 20% miss chance you incur when using the spell/item. With your already weaker base attack bonus, and the automatic 5% miss chance on any d20 (a fumble), you'll have problems hitting.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-30, 12:51 PM
Not to be a spelling Nazi, but it is spelled rogue not rouge. Rouge is a makeup typically applied to cheaks. Its one thing if its a typo but you spelled it wrong consistently like 10 times.

Dizlag
2007-05-30, 01:09 PM
Rune,

There was a feat called Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) suggested earlier in the thread. I suggest taking it. It has a BAB +5 as a prerequisite that a 9th level rogue will qualify for. This feat allows you to reroll 1s on your sneak attack die. So that means, instead of doing 17.5 points of damage on average with the 5d6 sneak attack damage you'll get at 9th level, you'll be doing 20 points of damage on average. Not too shabby, huh? And besides, there's something about being able to reroll 1s that will help morale. Hehehe

If your BFs necromancer can't cast Greater Invisibility on you, then I would suggest taking the Improved Initiative feat which will add +4 to your initiative check making it a +9. More than likely, you'll be going first and getting all of your attacks on the first round. After that however, you're screwed and will have to hide after each shot taking a -20 to your hide check.

Telonius has a great suggestion in buying a Ring of Blinking, however that's a 27,000gp item. You won't have enough at 8th level to buy it. But, save your lewts and get it! The only draw back with that item is because the blink spell shifts you between the Ethereal and Material Planes, you as the attacker will have a 20% miss chance on your targets. It's worth it though. :smallbiggrin:

I suggest making your Composite Longbow a Str +2 bow as well for an extra 200gp. An extra +2 to damage goes a long ways sometimes.

Sounds like you've got your skills and languages solidified too. Btw, if you want to use an online character sheet server to tweek stuff, I use Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/) to link my character sheets so my DM can approve them. Just create a free account and make sure you edit the properties of the sheet to make it "Public" for your DM and Boyfriend to look over. Just a thought.

Good luck!

Dizlag

EDIT: simu-post with Ravenkith ... my comments about suggesting ranged + rogue = bad idea. I agree that a ranged rogue isn't as powerful as a melee rogue, but a ranged rogue with her party makeup would be a great fit not a bad idea. Who says she can't tumble up and flank someone from 30' away? Getting to go first from point blank range with 3 attacks at 8th level will be huge. Then the monk and other melee character in her party will move in. When it's her turn, she can tumble up and draw her rapier flanking the baddie the monk is on. If she wants too. That option will always be available to her.

Anyways, just my 2cp worth.

Telonius
2007-05-30, 01:28 PM
Oh, one other suggestion for the Rogue. If you're running a long-term campaign, do not take it for the full 20 levels. Be a Rogue 19/(anything)1. Just about anything you take will be more useful to you. Monk, Bard, CW Samurai ... heck, even Adept or Warrior. Seriously, a level in anything (besides Commoner, Aristocrat, or Expert) is better than Rogue 20. +1 BAB/+1 Reflex save/8+int skill points is not worth your interest.

A favorite multiclass for the Rogue is Ranger, because it gives +1BAB, proficiency in all martial weapons, and good fort/reflex saves. You only lose out on two skill points, and you also get nifty features like Track and a Favored Enemy. Barbarian's a good fit too, for the high hit dice, fast movement, and martial weapon proficiency. If you're going to be using a lot of wands, a level in Wizard or Cleric will allow you to do so without that pesky UMD check. Extra feat (Scribe Scroll) and familiar bonuses for Wizard. Heavy armor, turning undead, and Domain powers for Cleric. War, Trickery, and Magic domains are all good picks for Rogue/Clerics.

Dizlag
2007-05-30, 01:49 PM
Nice suggestion Telonius. Taking a level in anything but Rogue at 20th (or before) is a great idea. I suggest Ranger because it's favored enemy ability will grant you a +2 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival (used for Tracking) checks against your favored enemy, not to mention +2 damage against these enemies as well. So, pick Favored Enemy (Humanoid: Orc) since your DM likes Orcs so much. :smallsmile:

Dizlag

Behold_the_Void
2007-05-30, 02:00 PM
There's a feat in the PHBII called Deadeye Shot. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Deadeye_Shot,all) It's a feat you can take with a +4 BAB and both Point Blank and Precise Shot as feats, so essentially at 6th level. It lets you ready an action to shoot at an enemy as another ally attacks them, denying them their dexterity bonus and thus giving you Sneak Attack. It's a nice feat, I definitely recommend it, possibly through a fighter dip (you can pick up the multi-shot feats too to get more than one arrow in at a time).

Of course as an elf, you'd take an experience penalty for dipping fighter. Thus, probably not the best of ideas.

ravenkith
2007-05-30, 02:00 PM
You can't flank with a ranged weapon.

In order to flank, you have to threaten.

Ranged weapons don't threaten.

Dizlag
2007-05-30, 02:11 PM
ravenkith,

You miss understood what I meant. I know that ranged weapons do not flank an opponent. Read the rest of my edit up above. If she was 30' away to start with, then tumbled up next to the baddie while drawing her rapier the rogue would be flanking at the end of her move.

Dizlag

Runa
2007-05-30, 04:19 PM
Rune,

There was a feat called Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) suggested earlier in the thread. I suggest taking it. It has a BAB +5 as a prerequisite that a 9th level rogue will qualify for. This feat allows you to reroll 1s on your sneak attack die. So that means, instead of doing 17.5 points of damage on average with the 5d6 sneak attack damage you'll get at 9th level, you'll be doing 20 points of damage on average. Not too shabby, huh? And besides, there's something about being able to reroll 1s that will help morale. Hehehe

Nice. Definitely an option I think! :)



If your BFs necromancer can't cast Greater Invisibility on you, then I would suggest taking the Improved Initiative feat which will add +4 to your initiative check making it a +9. More than likely, you'll be going first and getting all of your attacks on the first round. After that however, you're screwed and will have to hide after each shot taking a -20 to your hide check.

I will talk to him about that. I'm also going to bring up the possibility of me scouting ahead (if I'm the only one there, I'm pretty sure I'd automatically win initiative :P) with the group, see how that goes. In that case, I might be able to get Sneak Attack damage in and then back away a little and warn the group (assuming what I find is obviously unfriendly, that is). I suppose that depend largely upon the environs though, whether I could pull it off.



Telonius has a great suggestion in buying a Ring of Blinking, however that's a 27,000gp item. You won't have enough at 8th level to buy it. But, save your lewts and get it! The only draw back with that item is because the blink spell shifts you between the Ethereal and Material Planes, you as the attacker will have a 20% miss chance on your targets. It's worth it though. :smallbiggrin:

It does sound fun, I must say. Except for the price tag of course! :smallbiggrin:



I suggest making your Composite Longbow a Str +2 bow as well for an extra 200gp. An extra +2 to damage goes a long ways sometimes.

True, true. I'm still not sure how much gold I'm going to have to start with though (it doesn't sound like 200gp is going to make too awfully big a dent, but like a good Rogue should, I want to keep track of that, heh), but it sounds like something I would want to have. Like you said, that +2 goes a long way sometimes!



Sounds like you've got your skills and languages solidified too. Btw, if you want to use an online character sheet server to tweek stuff, I use Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/) to link my character sheets so my DM can approve them. Just create a free account and make sure you edit the properties of the sheet to make it "Public" for your DM and Boyfriend to look over. Just a thought.

Cool. I may want to start using that. Like I said, the game is, oh, pretty much just over 24 hours from now so I don't know how much access they're really going to have just yet. :) But yeah, looks handy.



Dizlag

EDIT: simu-post with Ravenkith ... my comments about suggesting ranged + rogue = bad idea. I agree that a ranged rogue isn't as powerful as a melee rogue, but a ranged rogue with her party makeup would be a great fit not a bad idea. Who says she can't tumble up and flank someone from 30' away? Getting to go first from point blank range with 3 attacks at 8th level will be huge. Then the monk and other melee character in her party will move in. When it's her turn, she can tumble up and draw her rapier flanking the baddie the monk is on. If she wants too. That option will always be available to her.

I think that's why this setup appeals to me so much, in part. :) Between the five daggers and the rapier I can still flank/get Sneak Attack if I Tumble, and with the other stuff (such as the flasks of oil and the caltrops), I can get some nifty cheap shots in :smallamused: Not to mention using the D&D equivalent of napalm (Alchemist's Fire) on occasion. Mwaha!

That and you know, it might also be fun to eventually (but not for a number of levels at least, for obvious reasons; the idea of stopping the Rogue leveling at 19 would work well with this, perhaps*, unless I'm grossly misunderstanding the way this all works) take this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm). After all, elves do like their magic, don't they...

*(By which I mean when I'm a level 20 character, I could be say Rogue 19/Wizard 1 or something, and qualify for this. Or do it a couple of levels before then, whichever works)

Of course, that's assuming we don't create another set of characters by then. See, our first set of characters lasted until... level 7. My second character in the other game (a Sorceress) only lasted one campaign. This next game will mark the introduction of R.'s THIRD character (keep in mind he wasn't a PC in the other game, just our normally-Tuesday-nights game), as the first one was overpowered just kind of ended up not working well (Psionics. With no Psionic enemies. Enough said), turned on the party and got killed by what ended up being his second character (whose approach changed from straight Wizard to Wiz/Cleric, to boot). My BF has gone from playing a rogue in the Tuesday night games to a Dread Necromancer, and in the other game was a Bard.

Needless to say, he has actually suggested that we might eventually want to just start switching it up with new characters more often. (Well, mostly new characters. The Ranger is apparently the same character after, I dunno, he went off and did some soul-searching. Our Fighter is the same as he was when we were playing Level 7 characters in the Tuesday night games - he apparently got disgusted with most of the original party and just kind of wandered off and joined a new one, ahem. It's basically just me, R. and my BF that are completely changing characters). I'm starting to wonder if he isn't going to turn out to be right about that. :smalltongue:

So, we shall see. As of the moment though, it does seem like I have a lot of options, which will fun, fun indeedy.

Dausuul
2007-05-30, 08:59 PM
Sad to say, the dread necro will not be able to cast greater invisibility on you. It's not on the dread necro spell list, which is pretty much limited to, well, necromancy.

So, yeah, it sounds like saving up for a ring of blinking is your best bet.

Runa
2007-06-01, 10:45 AM
So here's the good and the bleh about how last night's game (the first with the new party) went:


*Before the game (after I figured out how much money I was going to have) I bought myself a Wand of Invisibility, though I haven't used it yet. DM decided starting gold should be 20,000 instead of the WBL of 27,000 but it was high enough for now. Boyfriend advised me to get Kyton armor, which has no penalties, gives +5 to AC, and has some sort of weird chain thing I can activate if I end up in close-quarters fight where it'll do damage to, um, something close. I have to look it up, but it was pretty nifty.

*I did pretty darn well. Didn't get a sneak attack in as the monsters surprised us, but I'm practically the only one who was still at full HP by the end of last night's game, even though I did some pretty nice damage here and there (never got hit, mwaha!). Thanks to Rapid Shot and a crit I managed to do 25 damage in one attack (despite rolling a very low number on the second arrow), and the DRAGON (yes, dragon) died the next time it got attacked (OK, so it was a "baby" dragon. Still!). Hilariously enough, the thing got tentacled to death; the dread necromancer managed to cast that thing called Ebard's, somethingorother. It created tentacles, suffice it to say. Grappled it to death (and would have grappled anything within 20 feet, which thankfully I was not - thank you thank you, Ranged Attack). So, the having a strong ranged attack = good idea thus far!

*I bloody hate Detect Lies. And metagaming. I think our Ranger and Monk (especially the Ranger) keep forgetting that their actions IN-GAME have to rely on what their CHARACTERS perceive in-game. The Monk not so much; R. really does tend to play cynical characters after all, and I only just barely beat his Sense Motive with a Bluff (I dunno about other groups, but our house rules say that if you only beat it by a few points then they "just barely" believe you), as he turns out to have the same ranks in Sense Motive as I do in Bluff (what are the chances?). But the Ranger, oi. He didn't even try to meet or beat my Bluff with a Sense Motive check, but still - largely OOC it would seem - henpecked me into admitting there was an extra piece of treasure I took. In hindsight, I should have called him on it though I didn't. Next time I'll watch out for it a little more, I suppose. Any case, long story short, I tried to Bluff the party to get extra (though not all) of the loots, didn't really work. Oh well, I still managed to actually make off with more loot and an even share of the gold anyway (apparently nobody cares about gems enough to notice that no one else took "dibs" on them. Hey, I'm not complainin'...). In addition to 180 gold (and the campaign's not near over yet, from the looks of it), I got three gems of varying values, a +2 lighthammer (will probably sell, what do you think?), and a Wand of Bull Strength. Which now that I look at what it does and how much it's worth, is a pretty sweet haul. Did I mention one of those gems was a Fire Opal? Which apparently is worth 1,900 gold? To think no one called dibs on that (of course, then again, I didn't know what it was worth until I looked it up later either). Again: I'm not complainin'.... :smallamused:


So, thus far, proving fun... though it would be more so if the Ranger didn't metagame so much. :smallconfused:

Seems to be working well for now, at any rate. Coincidentally, the Monk is apparently also a Saint... which means fire resistence and immunity to acid, among other things. Did I mention I have acid flasks and Alchemist's Fire in my arsenal? That works out nicely. One less person to worry about hitting with my little extras.

-Runa

ravenkith
2007-06-01, 11:01 AM
Point:

Don't steal from the group.

While it sounds like a good idea, it generally just pisses people off.

Just sayin'.

Dizlag
2007-06-01, 12:08 PM
Sounds like you had a great time last night. I'm glad the ranged rogue didn't equal a bad idea. :smallsmile:

Stealing phat lewtz from the party is a tricksy thing. For myself, I don't encourage stealing from party members in the game that I'm DMing only because of the nature of my group. We only get together every other week and only for a few hours. So, the quality of the gaming time needs to be looked at and what everyone is getting out of it. If the party thief is gonna steal the good stuff all the time then it would take away from the others fun. Some won't mind at all, but it only takes that one person who doesn't like it to make the game go into the crapper.

Rogues don't have to steal. I have a halfling rogue who was raised by a family of gnome locksmiths and considers himself a master locksmith, not a thief or rogue ... he's never stolen anything in his life. :smallbiggrin:

Take care,

Dizlag

Runa
2007-06-01, 02:41 PM
Point:

Don't steal from the group.

While it sounds like a good idea, it generally just pisses people off.

Just sayin'.

It pisses people off if they find out, to be fair. Of course, with the party basically assuming I'm going to be doing that because I'm playing a Chaotic rogue character (though to be fair, their characters shouldn't be able to know my alignment in that respect :smalltongue: ), and with R. still playing a cynical character... with +10 in Sense Motive... and the Detect Lies spell on hand (the latter two parts I did not know about), yeah, that's kind of hard. I've decided not to do it again, but I always wanted to try it - just once - to see if it would actually work. Apparently not. :P Live and learn, I guess. It was fun to try at any rate. They weren't actually too mad at me (which I can guess from the loot I still managed to snag with their approval or tacit approval), R. was a tiny bit annoyed that he had to "waste a spell" on me. Also, considering we pretty much were (naturally) playing rather as if our characters had never met... yeah, not so good a first impression. :smallbiggrin: Oh well. They'll eventually learn to trust me (their characters, I mean. I'm probably gonna just go ahead and tell them I won't do it again since it seems like it would annoy them and all). To be fair, I did reveal most of the treasure, especially the stuff I thought the others might be able to use (like the chain shirt and a spell scroll). :P Most of it. Heh.

I guess I'm going to have to roleplay my character feeling bad for trying it, though, what with the Good alignment. :P (Gotta stay in-character, after all)



Sounds like you had a great time last night. I'm glad the ranged rogue didn't equal a bad idea.

Me too. :)



Stealing phat lewtz from the party is a tricksy thing. For myself, I don't encourage stealing from party members in the game that I'm DMing only because of the nature of my group. We only get together every other week and only for a few hours. So, the quality of the gaming time needs to be looked at and what everyone is getting out of it. If the party thief is gonna steal the good stuff all the time then it would take away from the others fun. Some won't mind at all, but it only takes that one person who doesn't like it to make the game go into the crapper.

True, that's probably come to think of it why I let the metagaming ranger know, eventually, that yeah, I had hid a bit of extra treasure. I know from experience what happens when someone annoys him or R. too much during game night - arguments all the way home (we usually sorta carpool to games, except for the fighter, he uses his own transportation). They weren't that mad once they finally got the truth about it, though; R.'s vow of poverty meant he didn't care much about the loot anyway, and the ranger (who is like crazy-overpowered right now and doesn't need much else) was happy to get the chain shirt. So, it worked out, except for somebody wasting a spell. ^^;; My character will feel embarassed and apologize profusely, I'm sure (it got late so we kind of "froze" the adventure after the treasure-divying).



Rogues don't have to steal. I have a halfling rogue who was raised by a family of gnome locksmiths and considers himself a master locksmith, not a thief or rogue ... he's never stolen anything in his life.

Take care,

Dizlag

True. She's young (for an elf, anyway), I suppose I'll explain it character-wise as impulsiveness. :P

Live and learn. Or, play and learn as it were. :smalltongue:

-Runa

ravenkith
2007-06-01, 02:47 PM
Ranged rogue = bad idea.

She said she didn't get her sneak attack at all, right?

Exactly what I said would happen.

End of the day? TWFing rogue > ranged rogue.

EDit: but hey, if she's having fun, it's all good. Until you lose a battle by 3d6 sneak die. ;)

Telonius
2007-06-01, 03:53 PM
Ravenkith, I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree. TWF Rogue = Bad Idea. Here's why.

1. Rogue already has only 3/4 BAB. Another -2 on top of it (for TWF) means a poor chance of hitting.

2. It's very seldom that a rogue actually gets to use the TWF feat. In order to do this and get sneak attack, the Rogue has to a) be right up next to a monster at the beginning of the round, and b) have somebody else in flanking position at the beginning of the round. If those two things don't happen, a Rogue will have to move; tumbling past or through the foe to get into flanking position with the other character. This means they can typically only get one sneak attack per round.

3. Low armor class + low hit points + melee combatant = dead rogue. As seen in point 2, a Rogue usually has to take a move action to get into flanking position against a foe to even have a hope of getting in a full sneak attack with TWF. So what happens when the enemy goes? It takes a full attack action, most likely doing a lot of damage to the Rogue in the process; then takes a five foot step to avoid being flanked. So the Rogue is back in point 2's situation; unable to flank (and thereby get sneak attack) without moving.

4. Compare this to a sniper Rogue. There are a number of ways to deny your enemy their dexterity bonus. Invisibility, just plain sniping from unseen, and other mehods allow you to do this. Feats like Able Sniper and Deadeye Shot can help out in the sniping department. You still may only get one Sneak Attack shot off per round, but you'll be doing so away from the combat, out of harm's way. If you get Blink or Greater Invisibility, you'll get all of the shots as sneak attacks. If you use Blink or Greater Invisibility with TWF, you'll get those extra couple of attacks, yes; but you'll still be in melee and in danger.

5. Cost. With TWF, you have to buy two magic weapons, and keep them both updated and upgraded. With Ranged, you only have to worry about the bow.

6. Increased versatility. Ranged allows you to get different materials for your arrows - cold iron, adamantine, byshek, mithral, silver - depending on your situation. Whereas a two-weapon fighter is stuck with ... whatever material the two weapons are made of. Yes, he can have two daggers of each material ready. But getting them out takes time, and means more expenses if he wants each of them magic.

ravenkith
2007-06-01, 04:46 PM
Telonius.

Ranged rogue = might as well not have sneak dice.

A TWFing rogue will take damage in a melee combat, but if he's flanking, and has karmic strike and combat reflexes, a twfing rogue will kill just about anything before it gets enough rounds on him to take him out.

The increased damage output from flanking offsets the danger of being in melee.

Seriously:

Ranged Rogue:
Round 1:

Rogue fires arrow, gets 1d8+3d6, 1d8, 1d8 for a total of 3d8 + 3d6.

Enemy closes to rogue, swings once, power attacking, deals 2d6+8 damage.

Round 2:

Rogue steps back 5 ft, shoots for 1d8 -or- drops weapon and stabs for 1d6.

Enemy steps up five feet and power attacks again for 2d6+8, -or- takes full attack for 2d6+8, 2d6+8.

Melee rogue:
Round 1:
Rogue sneaks up. Takes surprise action. spring attacks in for 4d6 + str. Backs off 5 ft.

Enemy steps up and takes 2d6+8 cut at rogue.

Rogue gets karmic strike of 4d6.

Round 2:
Rogue takes full attack of 4d6 + 4d6 + 4d6.

Enemy takes full attack of 2d6 + 8, 2d6 + 8

Rogue gets retaliatory strikes at 4d6 and 4d6.

Conclusion: We're not even talking about allies dishing out damage here, but the ranged rogue is clearly in trouble.

As long as a melee rogue flanks, he's going to toss out as much damage as a comparitive level fighter who's power attacking, yielding the same to hit ratio, per hit.

If that fighter is attacking the rogue, the rogue will get to attack the fighter most every time, yielding twice as many attacks as a fighter.

That's howpowerful sneak attack is...and I'm not even factoring melee rogue's str!

Taking deadly precision yields further dividends, guaranteeing you won't get ones on your sneak dice.

Tricking out in a ranged rogue role means you just will NOT be getting access to sneak dice as often...one of the most powerful features of the class.

It's a bad move. <shrug>

Personally, Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Abjurant Champion 5
Feats: TWF, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Arcane Strike, Deadly Precision

Add TWF to taste.

Dausuul
2007-06-01, 04:49 PM
Point:

Don't steal from the group.

While it sounds like a good idea, it generally just pisses people off.

Just sayin'.

Eh, it depends on the group and the amount of the theft. If your fellow players aren't obsessive about such things, and you only skim a little off the top, it's probably okay. If you try to swipe half the plunder, given how money-dependent D&D is, that's a problem. Likewise if the other players get upset about such things (as these apparently do).

Yechezkiel
2007-06-01, 05:10 PM
What can a Rogue (straight class) do to be knowledgeable about spells and magical items? Just cross-class Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft? About how many ranks would justify above average knowledge of up to lvl 4 spells?

I want to be able to come up with my own ideas and questions in character so I'm not always dependent on a caster to provide answers when thinking of ways to UMD and look for scrolls. Should I just forgo knowledges and just try to learn tricks as the party adventures?

Runa
2007-06-01, 05:47 PM
Eh, it depends on the group and the amount of the theft. If your fellow players aren't obsessive about such things, and you only skim a little off the top, it's probably okay. If you try to swipe half the plunder, given how money-dependent D&D is, that's a problem. Likewise if the other players get upset about such things (as these apparently do).


Indeed it does. Actually, my boyfriend (who again, used to play a rogue in our old party) gave me one bit of advice: "Don't try to hide ALL the gold next time. Just take one or two hundred off the top." (Ironically, he didn't get to do that much either, though, as it wasn't until now that the DM finally decided to start writing the results of a Search on a pad instead of just reading them off out loud). :P

I don't think they'd have minded too much if I wasn't trying to take ALL the gold, like I was last night. They didn't seem to care about the Fire Opal so much as the gold, which I suppose is understandable (given we didn't realize it was worth that much and the only reason I didn't reveal I'd found it was I figured I could look it up later and it SOUNDED cool :P). Although I'm glad I chose last night of all nights to do it, because again - we started each of us with 20,000 gold's worth of wealth, not our usual less than 1,000 gold (it was only in the last couple of games that we got much above 1,000 or 2,000 gold and then only because R. complained that he couldn't afford the materials for his spells). People got over it pretty quick. It helps that R. not only doesn't need money, but can't even keep money, gems, magic items, etc., because of his Vow of Poverty, and the ranger had enough cool equipment that I think his only problem was he didn't like not knowing everything (he also got kinda flummoxed when the DM nerfed him a couple of items so he did less damage or got hurt a little more, because, technically, he did follow the RAW when constructing his character, he just made it really frickin' Uber). That said, I obviously can't really do it with the Monk in the party anyway so yeah. :P

It was funny though, because at first they couldn't tell anything because I said "I found..."; Discern Lies (at least by house rules) only tells you if the person is lying... not if they're carefully leaving stuff out. XD But yeah, it came out (thanks to the ranger asking "Did you find anything ELSE?", and then R. said "That's funny, dragons usually have GOLD...") and I teased them about being "no fun" and we split the gold evenly and moved on. I don't wanna risk annoying them though, since I'd rather we have a good time and walk away from games not arguing against each other, which could very well happen if I try to pull that again. :P

Ravenkith: I may well get a Sneak Attack in the future. Other than the fact we're in a dungeon with rooms, I DO have a Wand of Invisibility. And I'm considering multiclassing to Wizard sometime after level 12 (if we keep going with these characters 'til then), so I can take the Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) prestige class, because it looks fun and useful. I mention this because my choice of school is obvious: Illusion. :smallwink: Not to mention some of the 4th level and higher abilities granted by Arcane Archer? You shoot through walls, or around corners. Don't tell me I can't get Sneak Attack by shooting around a corner?

In any case, I still do damage and I still had fun and something to do in the fight, so really, I'm happy with the build so far. :)

-Runa

ravenkith
2007-06-06, 08:14 AM
ROGUE

5-10 levels is a long time to wait to actually get to use your sneak dice.

A wand of invisibility is problematic because you have to draw it, use it, put it back, get into 30 ft of range, shoot the enemy, and then draw it to use it, blah blah blah.

Basically, wand of invis for sneak dice = 1 attack every two rounds.

and you are completely sacrificing additional sneak dice to get into the arcane archer class.

Strictly speaking, Order of the Bow Initiate(Complete Warrior), or Arcane Trickster would be significantly better choices.

(OOBI, BTW, is considered one of the weaker PrCs in the game).

I've been playing for 14 years, off and on. I've played through 3 different editions of the game.

Granted, I haven't researched the PHBII or the complete scoundrel in depth, nor am I familiar with magic of incarnum or Tome of blades...but I'm pretty up-to-date on most of the books out there.

Building efficient characters is something I consider fun. People in my group often come to me for help when designing characters.

Yes, you can have fun playing an archer. You can have fun playing a rogue. You can even have fun playing a rogue who is an archer.

But D&D is not like the movies: you will not be Legolas, not matter how cute you may think Mr. Bloom is with pointy ears, because of the facts:

Archery is one of the most under-supported fighting styles in D&D. There's something like 5-7 prcs involving archery for 3.5 across all of the splatbooks that have ever come out. Only three of them are really any good (Cragtop Archer being one of them, Races of Stone). There are maybe ten archery feats, and only half of them are useful, and all of the useful ones are in the PHB.

Archers tend to be fragile, restricted to light or no armor. In addition, any time you fire your bow or crossbow while in melee with an enemy, they get to stab you. As such, if you are playing an archer, either you shoot at bad guys from far away, or hide behind the rest of your party while doing it from within 100'. Even then, you will end in melee, and you will end of fighting with your back up weapon. If you don't, your DM is babying you.

You have a limited number of feats. You can only afford to do one thing well. If you choose to specialize in archery, you will suck at melee. If you choose to spec in melee, you will not be as good at archery. You almost have to take point blank and precise shot as a ranged character, which cuts down even further on what you can do with your feats.

The game is called dungeons and dragons for a reason: most combats take place in tightly controlled environments within a couple hundred square feet. 3 out of every 4 combats will occur within 100ft. Nearly all battle mats sold are small, because they fit on normal tables better, and most DMs design encounters to fit on the battlemats they own, not wanting to draw and redraw every five minutes in a session.

Sneak dice do not normally work outside of 30ft.

In short: being an archer in D&D means you get the shaft.

If you are going to be an Archer, you need to go ranger, with the archery combat style. Why? Check the spells available for them in the new complete series: one of them lets you fire a bow in melee without provoking AOOs (Arrow Mind), which is utterly golden, and another lets you pull an impossible stunt multiple times a day (Arrow Storm) that you would normally only get once a day as a 10th level arcane archer. There are other benefits, too, beyond getting archery feats for free and being able to ignore one of the greatest pains in the ass for archers anywhere: animal companions to help take the heat off, and act as a blocker, a d8 hit die, 6+int skills, and a full attack bonus.

If you want to be a rogue, don't be an archer its counter-indicated by one of the classes key abilities (sneak: only within 30ft.).

Oh, you most certainly can play it. You'll end up wishing you hadn't, though. Especially when the mage makes you utterly superfluos, time and again. <shrug>.

Oh well. You live, you learn, you move on.

Runa
2007-06-07, 04:56 PM
Ravenkith, two things just jumped out at me from that post you just made:

1.) You assume that just because I'm making an elf with a longbow (a frickin' FEMALE elf at that!), that I'm "trying to be like Legolas" and make a snide, inexplicable remark that implies both that you know me (you really don't, far more than you apparently realize, either) and that, inexplicably, I must somehow like Orlando Bloom just because I'm creating an elven archer character, as if all women EVER automatically like that trumped-up, over-popular, nancing Ken doll of a prettyboy. NO. I am not a bloody Legohead, in fact, I can't stand to be around somebody who IS, at least when the subject gets around to anything at all that could possibly at all even remotely connect to the subject of Orlando bloody Bloom (I'm the same way with just about any prettyboy, actually; I hate hanging around fangirls while they're fangirling, it's frickin ANNOYING. Associate me with them again, and I'll listen to you even less than I'm starting to now!). I'm not a LotR fan by any stretch of the imagination (I stopped halfway through on both the books and the movies both), but just hanging around multi-fandom forums and fanfiction.net at all has given me a severe, almost reflexive loathing for anything relating to Orlando Bloom outside of the "Pirates" movies (or the first one, anyway), and then only because he played an idiot and Cap'n Jack was much more upstagey than him and made it tolerable. I think he is boring, bland, crap of a prettyboy who is successful almost exclusively because he is, in fact, a pretty boy, and who I couldn't give a flying flip about. I can't help almost thinking you were trying to be condescendingly sexist on purpose with a remark like that, because it just boggles my mind trying to come up with a way anyone could possibly write something like that WITHOUT intending to be really bloody condescending, or WITHOUT intending to imply that all females are just silly little fangirls who don't know how to do anything except drool over prettyboys and rip off popular movies to design their characters. I mean, nobody that can spell as well as that and otherwise sound that educated could possibly be THAT horrible at writing that they come off like a pompous misogynist on accident, surely...?

2.) Despite acknowledging only a few posts ago that "Oh well, so long as she's having fun I suppose it doesn't matter", which makes it SOUND like you realized you weren't going to change my mind and I was happy and everything was pretty squishily-squee, you STILL insist, only a couple of posts later, on how much my character must obviously suck just because archery is "inefficient" in D&D compared to other weaponry. And denigrating the character, despite hearing that I am HAPPY with it and as far as I'm concerned it works just fine within my party's exact setup and playing style.

Dear sir, talking down to me and openly, stubbornly, AGGRESSIVELY denigrating a character I'm happy playing, is NOT going to convince me to change the character's weaponry.

In fact, in the handful of cases where I have changed my mind about where I'm going with the character, almost NONE of them were because of something you've said. The only remotely useful thing you've said was pointing out that most of the really useful archery feats are all in the PHB.

Also, here's another thing that strikes me: you repeatedly, stubbornly obsess over whether or not I get Sneak Attack damage, or am capable of doing massive damage in general. I'm not even concerned about it; Sneak Attack wasn't what I picked Rogue for, it's just a fun bonus I sometimes get, an extra WOOT factor every so often, and nothing more. Doing massive damage isn't a concern, either, because so long as I'm not just STANDING there (which is basically what I did when I tried to play a straight level 1 Healer or Sorceress most of the time), I'm entertained; the other characters do more than enough to turn the tide of battle without me being an UbeRogue, thanks.

I realize this is probably hard for you to understand, and perhaps the main point of confusion, but perhaps this quote I found elsewhere on the forums says it most succinctly:



Just play the character you want to play. Don't feel the need to squeeze every point out of the build.

That is exactly the way I feel about it. I just want to have fun, which in D&D I have figured out for me means the following:

1.) I get to be a part of the team.

2.) I get to have some character development and character interaction.

3.) Some funny stuff happens, either in the form of jokes or just something in the game amuses us.

4.) I get to do something in all or most rounds where it's my turn. Yes, "something" includes just sneaking around invisible or "only" doing 14 damage (in that case, the BBEG had damage reduction, I didn't crit, and only one arrow hit).

5.) I don't annoy any of my fellow group members enough that we end up arguing on the way home.

I can do all of this perfectly well without having an UbeRogue character, without making a character that is "efficient" by your own definition. I don't create characters because I want to kill things with a big sword - if that were true, I'd be playing a Fighter - I create characters because I feel that playing them will be interesting and fun. And "fun" for me does not solely depend on how much damage I'm doing per attack.

Just because I've only been playing for a few months and pick a character build you don't feel is "efficient" enough for YOUR tastes, doesn't give you the right to talk down to me like that and insult, among other things, my taste in characters and men, respectively. Just because you own more books than me doesn't mean you know better than I do how to have fun with MY group, and I can say this especially because you really can't seem to get it through your thick skull that I've already created an archer character and I'm HAPPY with it, and I KNOW I'm "inefficient", but I'm not, unlike you apparently, obsessed with doing the most damage on every damn shot. Sometimes a weaker character is MORE INTERESTING TO PLAY. Sometimes characters that are "inefficient" in combat can STILL BE FUN to play. Please get that through your head before you lecture me on how much I supposedly suck or am stupid just because I'm playing an archer. I almost guarantee that if you do - if you can just stop talking to me like I'm a complete, giggly moron for just one post - I may actually listen a little. I you actually acknowledge that I can have fun playing an "inefficient" character and actually sound like you aren't silently adding "however, you're an idiot to do so", I may actually hear you out. If you stop trying to argue how much archery sucks when you KNOW I'm set on creating an archer, if you can just get it into your head that it's a better idea (assuming you want me to even consider heeding your advice) to be in the mindset of "well, I would never play an archer rogue myself, but if you're going to do it, it's probably a good idea to [insert good feats to take, strategies, etc.]". As opposed, of course, to talking to me like you're talking to a particularly verbally-advanced 5-year-old.

By the way, you spent so much time whinging on about how much archer-rogues suck you apparently never ever looked up the Dread Necromancer's spell list. They get Ebard's Black Tentacles. You know what that does?

It creates tentacles that grapple everything within a 20-ft radius. Note that it takes away the Dex bonus of whomever is getting grappled. Note that this means I can be less than 30 ft away from even the center of the spell and still not be grappled by the tentacles as well. Note that this means I most definitely get a Sneak Attack anyway, and that in this case, it's entirely possible for it to be easier and safer to fire a projectile than it is to attack with say, my rapier. I'd also like to note here that our Dread Necro LOVES using this spell (other than being damn useful if you can pull it off, it's also hilarious to realize it's being tentacled to death), and used it at least twice in this last adventure. Quite effectively at that.

Again - it's better than you think, this build with this part. But, again - I don't care as much about damage as you do, honestly. I don't even think of it as a Build, but as a Character. I just want to have fun. So I'd appreciate it if you'd get off your high horse and actually be, you know, helpful and say, actually friendly as opposed to acting like you're always talking to bunch of complete ignoramuses just because not everyone cares as much as you do about making a powerful melee character.

(By the way, we needed a Rogue to disable traps and stuff. Our Ranger wouldn't play it as he just wants to go around hitting stuff with a big sword - I imagine you two would get along just fine - R. just wants to be a caster of some sort, and the BF doesn't want to play a rogue right now. Our fighter quit the group this week, so he's not an option either. Do the math.)

- Runa

ravenkith
2007-06-07, 07:44 PM
I apologize if you got all offended.

First, please realize that I am used to dealing with people who are somewhat less than intelligent in most of the online forums that exist...or at least, people who have difficulty forming a complete sentence.

Automatically, when talking on forums like these, especially when I am explaining things that go into great detail and can get fairly complex, I assume that my audience is an idiot.

Add into the equation your self-confessed inexperience in playing anything other than a paladin (generally used for meleeing, and not very sophisticated in terms of in-game capabilities and character creation), and I hope you may begin to see why I used such a pedagogical tone.

In this case, a grave error. In most cases, not.

My comment about Orlando Bloom stems from my own experiences with an Archer character, back in 3.0. I played one all the way up to 17th level, inspired into creating the character because of the fun and interesting things done in the first movie. It was shortly after that my group upgraded to 3.5 and I went from having earned the nickname "The Chain Gun Elf" to being third string and next to useless, thanks to the nerf stick.

The 'cute' thing was a cut at you, for which I apologize. It stems from my own frustration at the poor rules for archers, and my inability to communicate to you how bad it truly gets at 12+ for archers, without wasting any levels on contra-indicated classes.

My 'obsession' with sneak attack is because it is one of the most important features of the rogue class, and is the only saving grace for the rogue as far as combat capability is concerned. The archer's chosen role is one of distance damage...sadly something you will be outperformed at by any competent wizard, at every turn.

I know what I'm talking about: in my fourteen years of playing, as I pointed out before, but you seem to have ignored, I have played a lot of different characters. I've tried what you're doing.

It doesn't end well.

You can have fun, yes. But you end up being an xp sponge, because other than traps, other characters will always be better than you at anything else.

Even ranged combat.

It's not your build design alone, I don't hesitate to add: Archers just don't get much love from WOTC. The rule support just isn't there for this type of character at higher levels.

If you are going to play an archer that's going to contribute anything as you approach the endgame, you have to build the character very carefully: otherwise you are one windwall or protection from arrows away from being a lawn ornament.

Please note: If you are relying on evard's tentacles, I suggest you change your mind. Your DN can only cast that spell a few times a day, and as I recall, as a 4th level spell, there are much better options for memorization. Especially since, the higher you go, the less likely it is that you will encounter opponents that can be stopped by such a spell.

Large dragons especially laugh at such measures.

Since you feel I haven't been helpful:

If the sole reason for you to take rogue levels is trapfinding, might I instead suggest scout? Specifically either the regular version, or the sniper scout from Dragon 346, on page 87?

Also avalable at crystal keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com)?

The class is MUCH better suited to a ranged attack role, and isn't quite as crippled with regards to the application of it's bonus dice, which, when you have to keep up casters, is extremely important.

Oh and hey, if you're happy, just ignore me and don't reply.

After all, what do you care if some random whackjob on the internet goes on a rant in a thread that you got everything you wanted from anyways...?

The only reason I said anything in the first place was so you wouldn't have to feel the frustration of playing a character for 6-7 levels (up to a years worth of playing time) only to realize that the group just doesn't need you at all anymore.

After a certain point, traps are just nuisances that are easily bypassed (e.g. mount), and locks even more so (knock).

Rasumichin
2007-06-08, 06:30 AM
The problem here is that the two of you are, quite obviously, preferring completely different playing styles.

Even though it is, rules-wise, a completely sound advice to stick to TWF, go for arcane trickster (a terrific PrC, imo) etc., it just does not work out well with what i've heard so far about Runa's way to play D&D.

In your group, playing such a build would undoubtedly result in "contributing nothing", "letting the group down", "not making up for your own weight" and whatnot.
Nothing wrong with that, optimizing and "playing for win" is fun, i completely agree with that.

However, we're talking about a group where squishy half-dragon rangers (a belkarish build indeed...) and monks (!) are considered strong PCs, where the DM obviously does not max out opposition, where everything is kept much more low-power than in your average game (otherwise, TPK would have ensued long ago).

Being underpowered should not pose a problem here.
Playing a character not appealing to you style-wise would.

Furthermore, i rather got the impression that it is quite unlikely that the character will make it into the really high levels, that a change of PCs will occur before.

So, Runa, stick with the ranged rogue if the concept sounds fun to you.
After all, crunching numbers and getting impressive dice results, even though it's what D&D is best at compared to other games, is quite obviously not of any priority to you, so a gimped build should not be that much of an issue.


You will have to work harder to do something useful performance-wise, so here's some advice on how to make it through combat :

-Make use of your skills as much as you can.

-Be prepared. Go ahead scouting. Don't get caught. Check out what's coming ahead, so that you have the chance to asses your opportunities and strike first.

-Controll the terrain. Use Evard's black tentacles , the entangle spell (if your ranger can cast it), tanglefoot bags ect.
Prepare ambushes using the oil to create a slippery surface.
Lure enemies to your location, get off a sneak attack while you watch them slip, then go and light it up with alchemist's fire.

-Make good use of undead minions.
Let them flank opponents.
Let them form a defensive row between your enemies and your partie's backline (you and the dread necro).

-Know your enemy. Be aware of who's immune to your sneak attack so you can adjust to the situation (by staying away from them).

-If you face anything big and nasty, you're in trouble.
Be aware of that and act with appropriate caution.

ravenkith
2007-06-08, 09:13 AM
So, Runa, stick with the ranged rogue if the concept sounds fun to you.
After all, crunching numbers and getting impressive dice results, even though it's what D&D is best at compared to other games, is quite obviously not of any priority to you, so a gimped build should not be that much of an issue.


Emphasis mine.

My point has been, all along, that the build is gimped. It can be done better. That it would be even better to go with a different build altogether.

Thank you for recognizing and, however inadvertently, backing me up on that.

I've said, all along, that if she's fine with that, she can go right ahead and play what she's got.

My problem is when people dismiss my experience and opinions as being completely false, or mislead someone, especially someone relatively new to the game, into thinking something that is simply not true.

Especially when they come to a community of people who are supposed to be knowledgable about this sort of stuff, and asks for our help.

It's pretty clear, in her choice of language (denigrate*), that this unfortunate woman has been lead to believe that her character is a good one, well-designed, and that I'm exaggerating it's shortcomings.

Granted, she may not be playing to higher levels...but she did speak of picking up a ten level prestige class. Granted, their DM may be soft-selling creatures by not playing them as they should be, or throwing smaller monsters at them because that's all the group can handle. Isn't the point of D&D to adventure, and discover new things...? Isn't one of the best moments in the game, when a DM pulls out a new monster you've never heard of, and you've got no idea what it can do?

What's the point of playing a character that is so weak, the DM has to tame things down? Doesn't that defeat the very spirit of adventure and excitement that D&D tries so hard to foster?

Note: A half-dragon ranger is not necessarily underpowered, depending on how it's built, and whether or not their group is using the template and it's level adjustment correctly. 3 levels can be a steep price to pay, but with a +8 strength (among other stats), a +4 to natural armor, elemental damage immunity, and immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, as well as a 1/day breath weapon, you're talking about some serious advantages, especially for a meleer.

It's not fair to newer players, especially in an experienced group, to leave them in the dark regarding some of the more complicated aspects of their characters, whose build they chosen based on whether they like the idea or not, and not on any real experience on how well or poorly it will end up playing.

*From dictionary.com:
Denigrate
1. to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame: to denigrate someone's character.
2. to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage: to denigrate someone's contributions to a project.

Dizlag
2007-06-08, 10:14 AM
First to ravenkith, because I want to end this post on a high note. Dude, you just couldn't help it could you? You apologized about treating her bad and then by the end of your post you talked down her her and did the same thing. I'd be surprised if she responded to your post. Yes, she came here asking for advice not to be told she's a fangirl and her archer rogue = sucks. In your opinion we all know it does, but for her she's happy playing it. Why couldn't you do what Ras just did and offer advice on tactics? Ras enjoys the optimizing and number tweeking as well, told her she has a gimped character, but offered constructive advice. Kudos to you, Ras.


Runa,

Ras had some very good advice there with tactics and knowing your character's limitations in certain situations. I'm glad you're having fun with the character because my halfling locksmith, who was raised by gnomes, is a ranged rogue as well. He's awesome! I'm the skill monkey of the group and I'm glad to let the bigger hitters have their glory. I actually felt guilty playing this character because I'm always rolling dice for finding traps, opening locks, and other stuff outside of combat. Yeah, I've got a wand of knock and shatter for backup because he just prefers to open stuff old skewl like his papa taught him. :smalltongue: There are 7 others around the gaming table who just sit back while I shine. I DON'T want this character to shine in combat, it's not the concept for him. I want him to be survivable (hiding and keeping my distance), yet still do something during combat while everyone else takes the glory.

I also game the way you do. I see a character, NOT a build because for me the game is SO much than the number crunching and getting every bit of uber out of a character. Uber to me is a great concept. I like to create interesting characters that fit a role in the party, but I look at the party and the gaming group I'm playing with first. In my humble opinion (and it's just that, MY opinion everyone) and the way I play pencil and paper RPGs, builds are for MMORPGs on the computer. Something that I enjoy playing as well, I've played WOW for a couple years now and will be moving to Lord of the Rings Online this summer. I actually kid around with my players that I'll be docking XP if they toss MMORPG terms like "toons", "builds", "instances", etc around the gaming table. :smallbiggrin:

But when it comes down to it, it's all about enjoying the game in your own way and having fun. For everyone it's different, but you've got to know the group your playing with and gel with them to truly have a great gaming experience. It sounds like you've done just that, Runa, in just a couple months of gaming. Big time kudos to you!

Take care,

Dizlag

EDIT: a couple typos

ravenkith
2007-06-08, 11:23 AM
First to ravenkith, because I want to end this post on a high note. Dude, you just couldn't help it could you? You apologized about treating her bad and then by the end of your post you talked down her her and did the same thing.


I don't see that in my last post. I did apologize for insinuating that the only reason she wanted to play an elf archer was an infatuation with Orlando Bloom.

I then went on to say that she'd been misled into thinking that she had a well-designed character. This is not a disparaging remark about her in any way, shape, or form.



I'd be surprised if she responded to your post. Yes, she came here asking for advice not to be told she's a fangirl and her archer rogue = sucks. In your opinion we all know it does, but for her she's happy playing it.


<Sigh>. It's fine for now because it's new and interesting. The concept is a great idea, very thematic, and resonates with mythological figures that have a lot of appeal (Robin Hood, for one).

You can have fun playing it.

It just won't last.

This is not my opinion, but rather facts, based on the availability or archery feats, the quality of archery classes, and existing problems within the D&D system that have been discussed to death previously.



Why couldn't you do what Ras just did and offer advice on tactics? Ras enjoys the optimizing and number tweeking as well, told her she has a gimped character, but offered constructive advice. Kudos to you, Ras.


Originally, she came here requesting advice on how to make a good character who was also a rogue.

People recommended archery, and tactics to go with it.

I pointed out that archery and rogues are not meant to go together, and that her character, as was currently being designed, and not yet in play, was going to suck, which was contrary to her initial request for a good one.

I offered her an alternate set of characteristics, namely a two weapon fighting rogue, and, IIRC correctly a couple of different builds that I threw out in a couple of minutes that would be superior to an archer rogue, in an effort to demonstrate how easy it was to come up with something better.

There was then a debate about whether archery was that bad for rogues, to which I responded, and an attack on the merits of two-weapon fighting, to which I responded.

As far as advice on tactics, Ras went as far as he could with that subject. There was nothing else to say, really. It was already as good as it was going to get (at 7th or 9th level, I might add).



Runa,

Ras had some very good advice there with tactics and knowing your character's limitations in certain situations.


Yes, yes he does.



I'm glad you're having fun with the character because my halfling locksmith, who was raised by gnomes, is a ranged rogue as well. He's awesome!

Irrelevant, and pure opinion. What is the design of your character? Is he a thrower or an archer? How often does he get sneak attack? What level is he?



I'm the skill monkey of the group and I'm glad to let the bigger hitters have their glory. I actually felt guilty playing this character because I'm always rolling dice for finding traps, opening locks, and other stuff outside of combat.


Hrm. So...your character is utterly incompatible with the rest of the group, requiring essentially, a seperate adventure for you to have fun with him? Are you "letting" the other players "have their glory" if you have no other choice?



Yeah, I've got a wand of knock and shatter for backup because he just prefers to open stuff old skewl like his papa taught him. :smalltongue: There are 7 others around the gaming table who just sit back while I shine.


Wait, you keep seven other people waiting while you 'scout ahead'? That's...nice.



I DON'T want this character to shine in combat, it's not the concept for him.


Ah. So, you don't do so well in combat, eh? Hrm. Who'd have thought?



I want him to be survivable (hiding and keeping my distance), yet still do something during combat while everyone else takes the glory.


Ok, so you have to run and hide in a fight while everybody else does all the work...? Mmm. Sounds fair to me. I mean, only 90% of the rewards in D&D come from combat.



I also game the way you do. I see a character, NOT a build because for me the game is SO much than the number crunching and getting every bit of uber out of a character. Uber to me is a great concept. I like to create interesting characters that fit a role in the party, but I look at the party and the gaming group I'm playing with first.


Actually, you don't play the way she does.

She's spent most of her game time as a paladin, a fighting class that has to get up close and personal, be in someones face, and take threats on head to head.

Your play style is about sneaking around and shooting people in the back - the exact opposite of a Paladin.

In order for a character to be 'uber', or great, it should have both a great concept and a great build.



In my humble opinion (and it's just that, MY opinion everyone) and the way I play pencil and paper RPGs, builds are for MMORPGs on the computer. Something that I enjoy playing as well, I've played WOW for a couple years now and will be moving to Lord of the Rings Online this summer. I actually kid around with my players that I'll be docking XP if they toss MMORPG terms like "toons", "builds", "instances", etc around the gaming table. :smallbiggrin:


Urm, No. Sorry, but MMORPGs, by their very nature are simply NOT as customizable as a PnP character. This is a fact, not an opinion.



But when it comes down to it, it's all about enjoying the game in your own way and having fun. For everyone it's different, but you've got to know the group your playing with and gel with them to truly have a great gaming experience. It sounds like you've done just that, Runa, in just a couple months of gaming. Big time kudos to you!


She is doing a good job in her IC relations, barring an unfortunate mis-step with stealing from the party.

I once plaid a rogue that took something from the party. He later gave it back, but he was always under suspicion, and as a result, I eventually had to take that character out of the game, because so much time was being wasted on 'keeping an eye on the rogue'.

That's why I advise against it. Very few players can abide the thought that they might be getting cheated out of something in game. Just something to remember.

She's obviously having trouble putting things together from a mechanical standpoint, or she wouldn't have come here for help in the first place.

She certainly doesn't need to be told that she can expect something to work mechanically when it just won't.

A good character, to be truly enjoyable, neeeds to have a good idea behind it (concept) and smooth mechanics that support the idea completely.

You can't enjoy something if it's kludgy, unresponsive, and non-functional.

To put it in WOW terms: Putting rogue and archer together is like running an AMD 64 chip computer without any kind of graphics card. Sure, you'll be able to run word and excel, even play a mud or text-based adventure...but you won't be able to get into your pretty, happy, fun time, game at all.

Rincewind
2007-06-08, 11:24 AM
Rogues do it from behi... Wait a minute, haven't I said this before?

draca
2007-06-08, 12:14 PM
1. Be Safe, and Have fun, in character and out.

2. Learn to think sideways for solutions (which you already seem to have a handle on). Paladins take things head-on, black and white. Rogues work best comming up with answer "e" in a multiple choice that only gives you "a," "b," and "c" to choose from.

3. Here, I'd warn you here to make sure your group doesn't have a set IDEA of what a rogue should and should not be... that's annoying with any class. But they already seem a great lot able to roleplay with individual characters being themselves and not following a cookie-cutter approach.

4. See rule number 1. The rest is numbers. A good rogue could have a great time and survive well even if s/he's compleatly unequiped... and you're usually the one the party looks to if they find themselves in that situation.

Rasumichin
2007-06-09, 02:23 AM
You can have fun playing it.

It just won't last.

This is not my opinion, but rather facts, based on the availability or archery feats, the quality of archery classes, and existing problems within the D&D system that have been discussed to death previously.

Facts as far as your and my favorite playing style is concerned.
Which, admittedly, is the style best supported by D&D, which works perfectly with challenge-focused, high adventure play.

However, judging from my experience with Stimmungsspielern ("mood/atmosphere players", a widespread kind over here), it is completely or at least mostly irrelevant for Runa's group.

Granted, the system is not supportive of such a style and needs a lot of tweaking to work along with it.
But, somehow, they seem to come up with a mostly functional result, interestingly excluding the probable trouble with the half-dragon's* player, who does not quite seem to fit in.

Runa might want to try out different systems in the future, but telling a newbie to change the system just after beginning to play would be highly counterproductive in my opinion.
It takes some time to find the game that works best for your needs and if you really want to appreciate it, it helps to have experienced something less functional.



A good character, to be truly enjoyable, neeeds to have a good idea behind it (concept) and smooth mechanics that support the idea completely.

You can't enjoy something if it's kludgy, unresponsive, and non-functional.

Normally, i would QFT this anytime- for my style of play, for arguing against people falsely claiming that RP is going to suffer if you think to much about optimizing and so on.

Still, there are groups where effectiveness is not an issue, where people spend years playing the equivalent of D&D commoners and still have a great time, just as there are groups who don't give a damn about roleplaying and are in it only for the action.

Nothing wrong with either, as long as everyone enjoys it.
I wouldn't, but that's not the point here.

The point is that, for now, the gimped build seems to work fine for Runa.
She might further enjoy it or change her mind about it and ask her DM if she can roll up a new one.
Let her find out for herself.


*You're right about the half-dragon, he might actually be horribly good at shelling out damage.
However, half-dragon meleeists are kinda specialized towards beating the enemy to a pulp before they suffer for their LA-induced HP-shortness.
Backed up with a good healer, though, it certainly can produce awesome results.

Matthew
2007-06-10, 01:43 PM
Wow, this Thread got personal...

So, what's stopping this Rogue Character from using Ranged Weapons when necessary and Melee Weapons when not? Past Level 10 with Non Blaster Spell Casters the effectiveness of a Rogue is pretty much moot anyway. In this case, the rest of the party consists of Ranger, Monk, Fighter and Necromancer.

I mean, we're only really talking about five to six Feats here over the course of Level 1-12.

Yeah, as far as I can see, pick up the three Archery Feats you want at levels 1-6, but don't neglect Weapon Finesse at Level 9, it's well worth taking. Two Weapon Fighting is purely optional; chances are you'll never get a Full Attack off without going squish.

Runa
2007-06-10, 10:09 PM
I apologize if you got all offended.

Apology VERY much accepted. I'm very relieved to find you were just in "Talk the newbie out of something stupid" mode as opposed to being an actual jerk (most of the time when somebody talks down a little to me in regards to - if you'll excuse my putting it this way - slightly geeky pursuits, it ends up that they're just really not a nice person and like to think they're superior to everyone, though this is probably bad luck on my part in the form of running into them more often, more than anything else).

I'd also like to apologize for not really appreciating one bit of advice that I'm almost positive you gave me here - to take Arcane Trickster, if It was going to take any kind of Prestige Class at all. At first, it didn't seem that impressive, but as I looked down the list of abilities, well, it has some fun ones (and, admittedly, it IS nice to keep getting SA dice, even if it's only an "extra woot factor" to me than a necessity, and there was something to do with disabling traps from a distance as I recall that would be fun). Arcane Archer, I've heard, is not particularly good for more than a level dip (to get the +1 on arrows for instance), considering how much of the abilities take so long to get to, and that you're better off usually just taking a few casting class levels and "using your spells creatively" to enhance your archery than you are going full-out Arcane Archer. :P



First, please realize that I am used to dealing with people who are somewhat less than intelligent in most of the online forums that exist...or at least, people who have difficulty forming a complete sentence.

Automatically, when talking on forums like these, especially when I am explaining things that go into great detail and can get fairly complex, I assume that my audience is an idiot.

Add into the equation your self-confessed inexperience in playing anything other than a paladin (generally used for meleeing, and not very sophisticated in terms of in-game capabilities and character creation), and I hope you may begin to see why I used such a pedagogical tone.

Yeah I can imagine I suppose. I'm just such a nerdette in real-life that I don't usually get talked-down to at all unless I eff up big time or unless I'm talking to somebody who's kinda full of himself (our group's Ranger is somewhat like that, R. as well to much, much, MUCH lesser extent, especially since when he's a little whiny about something, at least he's usually either right or once it's pointed out to him he's wrong, he's cool about it). I don't mind being talked to as if I'm a complete beginner so much (especially when I've requested it), it just bugged me that you kept at it the manner you did, because I felt you didn't think I had "gotten" it the first time, which was somewhere between "hurtful" and "annoying". :smalltongue:



In this case, a grave error. In most cases, not.

My comment about Orlando Bloom stems from my own experiences with an Archer character, back in 3.0. I played one all the way up to 17th level, inspired into creating the character because of the fun and interesting things done in the first movie. It was shortly after that my group upgraded to 3.5 and I went from having earned the nickname "The Chain Gun Elf" to being third string and next to useless, thanks to the nerf stick.

The 'cute' thing was a cut at you, for which I apologize. It stems from my own frustration at the poor rules for archers, and my inability to communicate to you how bad it truly gets at 12+ for archers, without wasting any levels on contra-indicated classes.

Apology accepted. :smallsmile:

I was pretty much set on doing something "a little different" past level 12, actually, either way, so I think perhaps I understood that on some level. Maybe it was the Feats list, which I've skimmed before. I'm one of those people that can read a list like that and not always be able to recall specifics later on without looking it up, but still walk away with a "feel" for the overall scheme of the information, so that's entirely possible.

I agree that the rules for archers are kind of annoying on occasion, and though I'm quite happy with the character and having fun with her and everything, I certainly have noticed how much archers get the shaft (if you'll excuse the pun) from WotC compared to other weaponry and casters, despite how obviously important bows and arrows were to the thematic time period in real life as well as pretty much any ancient culture that got more advanced than spears and clubs in their weaponry. Between that and the popularity of the bow in popular culture of the past few centuries (Robin Hood alone, for goodness sakes...), you'd think WotC would give archery a little more love. Part of me sometimes wonders if they aren't actually just taking the term "swords and sorcery" a little too literally. :smalltongue:



My 'obsession' with sneak attack is because it is one of the most important features of the rogue class, and is the only saving grace for the rogue as far as combat capability is concerned. The archer's chosen role is one of distance damage...sadly something you will be outperformed at by any competent wizard, at every turn.

I know what I'm talking about: in my fourteen years of playing, as I pointed out before, but you seem to have ignored, I have played a lot of different characters. I've tried what you're doing.

It doesn't end well.

You can have fun, yes. But you end up being an xp sponge, because other than traps, other characters will always be better than you at anything else.

Even ranged combat.

It's not your build design alone, I don't hesitate to add: Archers just don't get much love from WOTC. The rule support just isn't there for this type of character at higher levels.

If you are going to play an archer that's going to contribute anything as you approach the endgame, you have to build the character very carefully: otherwise you are one windwall or protection from arrows away from being a lawn ornament.

Yeah, I kinda figured. Partly why I'm considering dipping into Wizard (which I wouldn't take a penalty for on account of it being the favored class for elves, and which I could easily tie in to the character's backstory, as I had already decided that her mom was a caster and her daddy was an archer. Moon elves are described in "fluff" as being more likely to wander around than other elven races, but like any elf they're still prone to an attraction to magic) to get a few spells and maybe, the Arcane Trickster PrC. I mean heck, Arcane Trickster can do Roguish stuff from a distance, that looks FUN (and possibly even useful, though it does have a higher DC...). Even then, I'm probably not going to multiclass at all until after ECL 12 (we leveled up in our last game, so I'm level 9 now), and that's assuming we're still using these characters then.

Deadly precision is still a good feat to take, though, if I recall, yes? I ask 'cause I haven't updated my character sheet yet to reflect the leveling, and IIRC, I won't be able to take another feat until level 12.



Please note: If you are relying on evard's tentacles, I suggest you change your mind. Your DN can only cast that spell a few times a day, and as I recall, as a 4th level spell, there are much better options for memorization. Especially since, the higher you go, the less likely it is that you will encounter opponents that can be stopped by such a spell.

Well, I'm not RELYING on it, but it does help (and is funny as heck, but that's a different issue). Also, I should note that the way our DM typically runs campaigns, we breeze right through them (normally, we get done with them in one session, which might have maybe three battles tops, only one or two of which will be the kind of thing the necro would bother to use that for). Even the spells per day restrictions aren't usually a bother on something like that because of it.



Large dragons especially laugh at such measures.

Well, yeah. Although, we're nowhere near epic levels though, so our DM is highly unlikely to toss a full-grown dragon at us yet, and has all but said as much. Though he may eventually if we actually play these through to epic, I suppose, but something in me doubts it. Though aren't dragons usually intelligent in D&D? I've been flipping through the Monster Manual, and it looks that way. That would probably change the outcome a lot, as I think Pip's got Draconic from being half-dragon (though I suppose it depends what kind of dragon. It looks like they all have alignments too that vary based on if they're a certain type of dragon).

I should note here too though that our DM tends to set up adventures that are based on WotC's. I don't know how many of those involve adult dragons because I figure if I actually read through one we haven't played yet, I would be tempted to metagame and I don't want that happen as metagaming annoys the crap outta me. :P



Since you feel I haven't been helpful:

If the sole reason for you to take rogue levels is trapfinding, might I instead suggest scout? Specifically either the regular version, or the sniper scout from Dragon 346, on page 87?

Also avalable at crystal keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com)?

The class is MUCH better suited to a ranged attack role, and isn't quite as crippled with regards to the application of it's bonus dice, which, when you have to keep up casters, is extremely important.

Interesting, I'll have a look at that. Even if I don't use it for this character, it might be fun to do it for another, especially if nobody else in the party's playing something that can deal with traps.



Oh and hey, if you're happy, just ignore me and don't reply.

After all, what do you care if some random whackjob on the internet goes on a rant in a thread that you got everything you wanted from anyways...?

The only reason I said anything in the first place was so you wouldn't have to feel the frustration of playing a character for 6-7 levels (up to a years worth of playing time) only to realize that the group just doesn't need you at all anymore.

After a certain point, traps are just nuisances that are easily bypassed (e.g. mount), and locks even more so (knock).

You've explained it a lot better now. However, 6-7 levels will not take nearly a year's worth of playing time the way our group plays. We practically level up on every adventure.

Hey, it just occurred to me. I've been reading a lot about how folks feel about archery in D&D, and something that seems to be brought up every so often is the idea that Rangers make better archers than any other classes. How true is this? Just curious. It would make sense, given the descriptions of the class...



Granted, the system is not supportive of such a style and needs a lot of tweaking to work along with it.
But, somehow, they seem to come up with a mostly functional result, interestingly excluding the probable trouble with the half-dragon's* player, who does not quite seem to fit in.

*snerk!* Yeah, Pip (as we call him) has never quite been like the rest of the group. He's always "I want to hit things and have cool weapons. I wanna use a weird template...". Needless to say he's more used to MMOs like Warcraft or single-player videogames than he is D&D. Me, the only computer game I've got "much" experience (defined here as "every so often I'll play it a bunch for a few weeks") in before this was Morrowind, which pretty much says it all I think. (Actually, I think the whole group except me has played Warcraft, but they all differ from Pip in the way they play it.)



*You're right about the half-dragon, he might actually be horribly good at shelling out damage.
However, half-dragon meleeists are kinda specialized towards beating the enemy to a pulp before they suffer for their LA-induced HP-shortness.
Backed up with a good healer, though, it certainly can produce awesome results.

Indeed. :smallbiggrin: We have noticed this.



Runa might want to try out different systems in the future, but telling a newbie to change the system just after beginning to play would be highly counterproductive in my opinion.
It takes some time to find the game that works best for your needs and if you really want to appreciate it, it helps to have experienced something less functional.

I keep thinking I might someday (eventually) want to give the Serenity RPG a try, given that 1.) I'm a Firefly fan anyway and already have the book (albeit the first ed., which didn't have character sheets, but the company put 'em up online for free so that's not so bad) and 2.) I've heard it is a LOT more freeform. The only problem though would be convincing enough other people to do it, since the BF and I are the only ones who're into Firefly that I know of who could meet regularly. But, if I sold it to 'em based on the world and stuff, maybe they'd do it. It would be quite some time before I'd do something like that though. :P



The problem here is that the two of you are, quite obviously, preferring completely different playing styles.

Even though it is, rules-wise, a completely sound advice to stick to TWF, go for arcane trickster (a terrific PrC, imo) etc., it just does not work out well with what i've heard so far about Runa's way to play D&D.

In your group, playing such a build would undoubtedly result in "contributing nothing", "letting the group down", "not making up for your own weight" and whatnot.
Nothing wrong with that, optimizing and "playing for win" is fun, i completely agree with that.

However, we're talking about a group where squishy half-dragon rangers (a belkarish build indeed...) and monks (!) are considered strong PCs, where the DM obviously does not max out opposition, where everything is kept much more low-power than in your average game (otherwise, TPK would have ensued long ago).

We did have someone get possessed and have his body kidnapped to another plane. Does that count? :P

(By the way, though I've been able to figure out the meaning from context quite easily, what do the letters TPK stand for? I've always wondered...)



Being underpowered should not pose a problem here.
Playing a character not appealing to you style-wise would.

Yeah kinda. In fact, in a completely different thread, I brought up this game/party, and somebody actually commented that it was basically little wonder I was having fun because "The party's pretty mediocre, which means the game is probably more balanced". :P



Furthermore, i rather got the impression that it is quite unlikely that the character will make it into the really high levels, that a change of PCs will occur before.

There is about a 50/50 chance or so of us going to Epic levels ('cause we've never done an Epic game before), but none of us actively stated we'd necessarily not switch characters before then either. :P I'm having fun with this one, but I can think of other types that would be a lot of fun to play at that kind of high level and I haven't even memorized all the little permutations of classes yet. :P So we shall see. I'm still fond of my old Paladin character actually since her character development ran a little deeper (then again, she was a weirder character and I played her longer...). She could be really fun to play at Epic levels, though that might just be me associating knights with more epic stories I suppose. This rogue character's probably more fun at these level games than she'd be at Epic. Never know, though.



So, Runa, stick with the ranged rogue if the concept sounds fun to you.
After all, crunching numbers and getting impressive dice results, even though it's what D&D is best at compared to other games, is quite obviously not of any priority to you, so a gimped build should not be that much of an issue.


You will have to work harder to do something useful performance-wise, so here's some advice on how to make it through combat :

-Make use of your skills as much as you can.

-Be prepared. Go ahead scouting. Don't get caught. Check out what's coming ahead, so that you have the chance to asses your opportunities and strike first.

-Controll the terrain. Use Evard's black tentacles , the entangle spell (if your ranger can cast it), tanglefoot bags ect.
Prepare ambushes using the oil to create a slippery surface.
Lure enemies to your location, get off a sneak attack while you watch them slip, then go and light it up with alchemist's fire.

-Make good use of undead minions.
Let them flank opponents.
Let them form a defensive row between your enemies and your partie's backline (you and the dread necro).

-Know your enemy. Be aware of who's immune to your sneak attack so you can adjust to the situation (by staying away from them).

-If you face anything big and nasty, you're in trouble.
Be aware of that and act with appropriate caution.

Sounds like pretty good advice. :) I do have a number of oil flasks and Alchemist's Fire and the like. I keep meaning to also pick up a few Tanglefoot bags as well.

It's funny you should mention undead flanking, because that's exactly how the necro used his first summoned zombie. :P That and as cannon fodder basically, heh.



It's pretty clear, in her choice of language (denigrate*), that this unfortunate woman has been lead to believe that her character is a good one, well-designed, and that I'm exaggerating it's shortcomings.

Eh, it was more a matter of me realizing archery is not as well-supported as other weapons, but still having fun. To me, a "gimped" character is not a "badly-designed" character so long as you still have fun playing it. A truly "badly-designed" character is one, to me, that causes you to just basically sit there throughout an entire section of the game, with nothing to do (like the Healer I played, as well as that Sorceress character I played that I never played a second campaign with because I got fed up with her. WotC doesn't like low-level sorcerers much better than they like archers, do they?). The true "shortcomings" or lack thereof in a character to me are whether you can have fun playing it, since of course, gaming is supposed to be fun. I'm less aggressive than some of the other members of the group (like Pip), so I don't mind playing less aggressive characters even though I like playing a character that doesn't literally just stand there most of the time (like my Healer usually ended up doing), and even though the Paladin was fun to play too. I don't know if there's a particular reason behind it, though it may just be that I come from a writing/storytelling background, and I've always figured roleplaying games were basically a different way of experiencing a character and story. If I were to compare myself to any of the OotS's ostensible players, it would probably be Durkon's; I am totally the type to develop this really detailed background and really be into roleplaying the character (I can't help noticing that Durkon metagames quite possibly the least out of any of the OotS), but then forget every so often to add in all the right numbers without somebody pointing out a bonus I missed. :P



Yeah, as far as I can see, pick up the three Archery Feats you want at levels 1-6, but don't neglect Weapon Finesse at Level 9, it's well worth taking. Two Weapon Fighting is purely optional; chances are you'll never get a Full Attack off without going squish.

I'm going to have to look at the difference between Weapon Finesse and Deadly Precision. I know each has been recommended as, and sounded like, a good feat, but I can't remember what each does. At least I have 'til Tuesday night to find out anyway.

One last thing to ravenkith, though: You keep focusing on how I used to play a Paladin, understandably using the Paladin's style of combat as a benchmark. You keep forgetting though, how much of my description of that character was centered around the character, not just how much fun combat was; the character development was the most entertaining part to me and the one thing that makes me think "If we decide to do epic, I might just request to be able to use her again". One thing I'm pretty sure I didn't mention though is that I'm a writer who loves to get inside her characters' heads and has a number of different types of characters she writes about, with countless personalities (or at least I've never bothered to count, heh), so I suppose the confusion isn't all that strange.

-Runa

Rasumichin
2007-06-11, 04:35 AM
(By the way, though I've been able to figure out the meaning from context quite easily, what do the letters TPK stand for? I've always wondered...)

Total party kill.:smallwink:


As far as the Arcane Trickster is concerned, it is a great PrC, especially because it offers both progression of SAs and caster levels- and the ability to do impromptu sneak attacks, which is just great when you want to do sneak damage with ranged touch attacks (like ray spells).
The problem is that you'll have to be able to cast 3rd level spells in order to take it.
Which means 5 levels of wizard.

Which means, that, if you start multiclassing imediately, you'll be able to go into arcane trickster at 15th lvl.
This will definetely hurt, since you'll be stuck with spells much below the challenge your average encounters at these levels will provide.
Meaning effectively that you will not get better as a rogue and get very limited advantages in return- in fact, advantages that are so little that they will really throw you back.


That's the problem with D&D : the system really punishes you for not planning out your character completely beforehand, which can make it hard to develope a PC in a more spontaneous way..

If you can live with these drawbacks, go for the Trickster, but my advice would be to do this as soon as possible.
In fact, i would advice to talk your DM into relaunching your PC with a different class or class combination.

If this is an option for you and your DM allows it, here's how it works :

The usual way would be to combine 3 levels of rogue, 5 levels of wizard and the full ten levels of Tricksters (and 3 levels of another caster prestige class), which would be a great build, but might differ from your previous character stylewise.

Another option would be to switch from rogue to spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) and go AT at 11th level.
Fluff could very well be the same (in fact, if your PC's parents where a roguish archer and a wizard, it would work perfect).
I have not worked out a build like this before, since i have only recently discovered the class (still new to 3.5 myself), but spellthief in itself sounds quite amazing if used properly and the combination with AT sounds nice (you will not be able to steal the really high level spells, but you get more sneak dice and stuff like ranged legerdemain and the awesome impromptu sneak attack).

Less sneak dice than the usual rogue, but you can use sneak attacks to steal spells (and, at higher levels, also spell effects, energy resistances or spell-like abilities) from your enemies which is just purest awesome and can be put to really good use (getting free spells and denying your enemies the chance to use them at the same time- while doing some sneak damage to them. Do i have to say more?).
You also get a small selection of spells of your own (with charisma being the casting attribute) and will, at 11th level, be good enough at casting to qualify for Arcane Trickster.


Just two suggestions if considering an actual relaunch would be an option for you.

Calsan
2007-06-11, 06:45 AM
I'm suprised nobody recomended the Arcane Trickster class,
talk about sneak attacks this class is quite good for it.
You might be slightly slower with the skills and sneak attack, but you
get great buff spells (True strike, haste, for instance). You might also
pack more of a punch when you are far away with things like fireballs and stuff. It's a great class to be in if you want to be more effective in combat.
Also use other tricks of the trade.

Also Quickdraw (feat) is quite good for throwing weapon rogues and switching from bow to sword without losing time.

Just my 2cp.

edit: Doh! should have read the last post, ninjad I guess :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

ravenkith
2007-06-11, 08:51 AM
Note: Spellthief, in play, is a very weak class.


Arcane Trickster:

Actually, there are some spells that are very helpful, even at the lower levels.

I've got to say though, Your best bet is to grab a level of wizard and see if you can't segue into Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) ASAP, then break into Arcane Trickster at the right moment.

<shrug>.

As to taking investment to get into, IIRC, this chatracter was being designed from the ground up for 7th-9th level...which is why I recommended Arcane Trickster in the first place, as you could have put all of the painful 'growing phases' of the character 'off-screen' effectively, by simply placing the requisite wizard and rogue levels earlier in your career.

Meh.

Rangers make better archers thanks to the fact that they get full bab, a d8 hd, and an archer combat feat progression which grants access to some of the more powerful archery feats automatically as you level (manyshot, in particular).

They even still retain access to move silently and hide, and the sensory skills, and a healthy 6 skill points a level.

In addition, the ranger gets his animal companion, that can either act as a mount(many ranger-archers will trade-up in the late game for something that can fly, like a pegasus or griffon), or simply as a melee bodyguard (bears and wolves).

Like the rogue, they suffer from lack of armor, but they get free martial proficiencies, which, if playing as anything other than an elf, is an issue, since the bows are actually martial weapons and not simple.

Finally, the ranger has spellcasting, which the rogue does not. This grants access to a number of useful spells at higher levels, but with the addition of Complete Arcane (if memory serves), gives the access to the all-important spell 'Arrowmind' as early as 4th level.

Arrowmind lasts for minutes at a time, as I recall, but it allows you to use your bow while in melee without provoking an Attack of opportunity.

This is huge for Archers, because it means you no longer have to carry weapons other than your bow, and don't have to worry about switching weapons during combat, or taking hits for using your bow when in base to base contact with a bad guy.

'Arrow Storm' a 4th(?) level spell from the same book, duplicates the 10th level capstone ability from the Arcane Archer class.

There are other ranger-accessible spells that help aid a ranger-archer, as well. But the above are usually the reasons cited for a ranger-archer's superiority in 3.5.

The biggest problem any such archer will face will be carrying enough ammunition, IMHO.

Matthew
2007-06-11, 11:59 AM
I'm going to have to look at the difference between Weapon Finesse and Deadly Precision. I know each has been recommended as, and sounded like, a good feat, but I can't remember what each does. At least I have 'til Tuesday night to find out anyway.

Deadly Precision lets you reroll your 1's on a Sneak Attack. Weapon Finesse lets you add your Character's Dexterity Bonus instead of her Strength Bonus to melee Attacks with Light Weapons, Rapiers and other 'Elf' weapons. It means a huge jump up in your Character's Attack Bonus, as the gap between her Strength and Dexterity is something like +4 to +1 (or so I think I noticed). Most Straight Rogue builds take it at Level 3, as it requires BAB 1, usually meaning their AB jumps from +3 to +6, or somesuch thing.

Rasumichin
2007-06-11, 04:38 PM
I'd recomend weapon finesse only if you're going to do a lot of melee combat.
You use dex for archery anyway, so the feat might be wasted if you don't intend to use your rapier a lot.

It would make the build more versatile, though.




Note: Spellthief, in play, is a very weak class.

Never encountered one in actual play.
But i'd like to know what exactly makes spellthiefs so weak, since they sound quite versatile (at least as long as they're doing rogue stuff instead of acting as secondary meleeist- in that role, a rogue build might perform better).

Also, i'd be interested wether this goes for straight spellthief builds only or if there's some general problem with the class i haven't noticed yet, since it sounds quite interesting to me to combine one level of Rogue and spellthief as base for an arcane trickster build, say, Rogue at 1st level, then 5 levels wizard, then one level spellthief- getting 2 SA dice, but losing only two instead of three caster levels. Of course, this would put a bit more emphasis on the arcane and less on the trickery, due to the loss of some skill points, but you can make up for a lot of skills with spellcasting anyway.
Losing evasion would hurt, though.


Oh, and sorry if this part is off-topic.

Dareon
2007-06-12, 08:16 AM
There are multiple ways around the very, very minor problem an archery rogue has of not threatening in melee. For starters, an elvencraft bow (Races of the Wild p. 166) allows a bow to be used as a bludgeoning weapon, and allows the wielder to threaten the area around them even while firing arrows. A swordbow (Magic Item Compendium p. 61) transforms between a longbow and a longsword as a free action. However, neither of those removes the AoO that actually comes from firing a ranged weapon in melee. This is where Arrow Mind comes in, as mentioned by ravenkith. From Complete Adventurer, page 143. As a rogue, you are unable to cast it naturally, however, your Ranger can, either by himself or working with others, let you use it.

If the ranger or one of the other casters in the party has Scribe Scroll, you can use the spell that way, although at the cost of requiring a standard action rather than the spell's normal immediate action. A better option may be Craft Wondrous Item, which could get you a multi-use-per-day amulet (Or other item, an amulet or headband would probably be the most fitting) with the same activation time as the spell and the bonus of not needing to use UMD. Even at caster level 1, the spell provides you enough time with it to get through most combats, so creation should be cheap enough. For comparison, if it was 3/per day, it would probably cost about the same as Sandals of Sprinting, MIC p. 131. Still, that's ultimately up to your DM.

ravenkith
2007-06-12, 09:00 AM
There are multiple ways around the very, very minor problem an archery rogue has of not threatening in melee.

Whether it is minor or not, seriously depends on your DM and how much he is treating you with kid gloves.

In any situation where you have an archer or a wizard handing out damage like candy, it's common sense for any thinking creature to close with those individuals and finish them first, because they are not as tough to kill as frontline fighters or divine casters by virtue of their hit dice and lack of armor.

If your DM isn't hitting you with this kind of play when up against sentient creatures with an int 10 or above, he's babying you.

<shrug>.

An item of arrowmind for a rogue is a relatively poor investment, as it would take up a slot that could be used for something else, like bracers of armor or gauntlets of dexterity.

The sword/bow you mention is, as I recall, quite expensive....

and the bow/staff is generally disallowed, as it is extremely cheesy.

Also, switching to a sword or a staff denies the use of the presumed archery feats that you have dedicated your character towards...which makes them a poor substitute for arrow mind or close combat shot, IMHO.

Dareon
2007-06-12, 12:06 PM
I fail to see how kid gloves has anything to do with it. The only time in my five years of playing 3E and 3.5, with five different DMs, that a melee enemy has not had to go through at least two meat shields to get to my little ranged self was when a 3E druid was tossing twice his HD worth of hawks and eagles at us.

A melee rogue, on the other hand, is at a much greater disadvantage, because any enemy with an Int above - is going to get sneak attacked, think, "Hey, that hurt!" and take a round to turn the rogue into a thin red paste. Which could then be applied to someone's cheeks, making this about the only rogue/rouge joke you'll see from me.

Okay, that may be exaggeration. But still, I have built both ranged and melee characters and find ranged to be both the better option mechanically, and more fun to play. The latter part is the more important, obviously.