The Moon Druid.

[djreynolds]

Everyone says how great the moon druid is, and it is cool. But it takes an experienced player with brains to use. Wildshapes can quickly be used up and quite frankly, at low levels the damage is all right. For example, our new druid, obviously inexperienced used both of his animal forms in one combat and we could not rest, and next combat died? Now he did so heroically, casting moonbeam on a lower demon and staying fixed on him, and the demon knew who to attack.

So my question is three parts?

What is the big deal?
An extra 30-50 hit points is sweet?
A real damage sponge
A welcome addition in combat?
Bonus action wildshape is great
Pretty good spell selection


What stinks about them?
Your AC is terrible without someone prompting you to cast barkskin.
2 per short rest, not scaling, means you have to hold on to that last wildshape like it was a 9th level spell, or be forced to stay in form and now we lost your spells

Possible fluff? House Rule?
You can change your animal form to that of another but not back to "human" form. Say I became a brown bear, kicked it in combat, I could become a wolf and my hit points would just scale down minus what I had lost as a brown bear, but in proportion, i.e. I lost half in brown bear, if I become a wolf I just get half as a wolf and fought and went down to a quarter, if I go back to bear I get quarter as a bear. Too OP

[Malifice]

Everyone says how great the moon druid is, and it is cool. But it takes an experienced player with brains to use. Wildshapes can quickly be used up and quite frankly, at low levels the damage is all right. For example, our new druid, obviously inexperienced used both of his animal forms in one combat and we could not rest, and next combat died? Now he did so heroically, casting moonbeam on a lower demon and staying fixed on him, and the demon knew who to attack.

So my question is three parts?

What is the big deal?
An extra 30-50 hit points is sweet?
A real damage sponge
A welcome addition in combat?
Bonus action wildshape is great
Pretty good spell selection


What stinks about them?
Your AC is terrible without someone prompting you to cast barkskin.
2 per short rest, not scaling, means you have to hold on to that last wildshape like it was a 9th level spell, or be forced to stay in form and now we lost your spells

Possible fluff?
You can change your animal form to that of another but not back to "human" form. Say I became a brown bear, kicked it in combat, I could become a wolf and my hit points would just scale down minus what I had lost as a brown bear, but in proportion, i.e. I lost half in brown bear, if I become a wolf I just get half as a wolf and fought and went down to a quarter, if I go back to bear I get quarter as a bear. Too OP

2 x short rest is basically 1 x encounter.

The expectation is you are tanking in Animal form in every single encounter.

Ive never heard anyone complain about Moon Druids before. Theyre literally the most versatile and potent class in the game.

[MaxWilson]

Druid AC is not that terrible. Hide = AC 12 + Dex (max up to +2), and then you get a shield on top. Obviously you'll appreciate a friendly Mage Armor spell (especially in wildshaped form) but it's not that bad without.

Check out the Losers and Rejects thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454843-Let-s-Play-Losers-and-Rejects) for some cool things Moon Druids can do even with rubbish stats and not enough levels.

BTW, druid spell selection is not merely "pretty good", it is arguably the best in the game until you hit 17th level. Some standouts: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth, Conjure Animals, Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Conjure Elemental, Planar Binding, Regenerate, Reverse Gravity, Transport Via Plants, Antipathy/Sympathy, Foresight. No access to Counterspell/Wall of Force/Simulacrum/Wish hurts, especially Wish, but how many PCs ever actually get to cast Wish anyway?

[DracoKnight]

Pass Without Trace

This spell. This freaking spell. It's amazing. Easily my favorite 2nd level spell. This spell is why my party loves me for playing a druid. A +10 to all stealth checks for an hour? Yes please. Our Rogue was rolling 42's (19 + 13) +10.

[hymer]

Our Rogue was rolling 42's

The answer to life, the universe, and everything!

I think the main drawback of the moon druid are those times when your wild shapes aren't cutting it; whether it's the inherent limitation of melee forms, walking around as a bear downtown, or just levels where your best form is wearing thin. At those times, it's hard not to feel like a second-rate land druid. Your resources are poured into fighting in melee, and it's likely your spot on the team too; yet you're basically behaving like a land druid with fewer spells available.
But I don't think that's a deal breaker. Moon druids are okay, except when they are too much.

[djreynolds]

2 x short rest is basically 1 x encounter.

The expectation is you are tanking in Animal form in every single encounter.

Ive never heard anyone complain about Moon Druids before. Theyre literally the most versatile and potent class in the game.

But I mean, you get in animal form, you could be stuck there for awhile. Right.

I like them, but it seems that you need to understand your role, and new guys may not get that.

I actually really like their spells, very flavorful

I'm not causing any strife, I have a new guy playing and told him to read the posts of others.


The answer to life, the universe, and everything!

I think the main drawback of the moon druid are those times when your wild shapes aren't cutting it; whether it's the inherent limitation of melee forms, walking around as a bear downtown, or just levels where your best form is wearing thin. At those times, it's hard not to feel like a second-rate land druid. Your resources are poured into fighting in melee, and it's likely your spot on the team too; yet you're basically behaving like a land druid with fewer spells available.
But I don't think that's a deal breaker. Moon druids are okay, except when they are too much.

I just feel bad when he uses his form on just exploration and social stuff and I feel bad because now the player is unhappy, because combat is around the corner and he's spent his uses. I like all the crazy ideas people use the moon druid for, and if you could switch animal to animal, I mean you couldn't cast anyways and it could just save the ones use for combat.


Druid AC is not that terrible. Hide = AC 12 + Dex (max up to +2), and then you get a shield on top. Obviously you'll appreciate a friendly Mage Armor spell (especially in wildshaped form) but it's not that bad without.

Check out the Losers and Rejects thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454843-Let-s-Play-Losers-and-Rejects) for some cool things Moon Druids can do even with rubbish stats and not enough levels.

BTW, druid spell selection is not merely "pretty good", it is arguably the best in the game until you hit 17th level. Some standouts: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth, Conjure Animals, Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Conjure Elemental, Planar Binding, Regenerate, Reverse Gravity, Transport Via Plants, Antipathy/Sympathy, Foresight. No access to Counterspell/Wall of Force/Simulacrum/Wish hurts, especially Wish, but how many PCs ever actually get to cast Wish anyway?

Trust me, I send all of my players to this forum for advice. And I play fair, but I feel bad two uses goes really quick. That's all.

Obviously players must manage resources. I'm just looking for a fair homebrew, or just let them learn

[Spacehamster]

Have them throw in 2 levels paladin, then you get +1AC style for when not in wild shape or if your animal form wears barding + couple of lvl 1 pally spells + holy bear smites! :)

[busterswd]

I just feel bad when he uses his form on just exploration and social stuff and I feel bad because now the player is unhappy, because combat is around the corner and he's spent his uses. I like all the crazy ideas people use the moon druid for, and if you could switch animal to animal, I mean you couldn't cast anyways and it could just save the ones use for combat.

This is the biggest design flaw of the Moon Druid (close runner up is getting Brown Bear too early, which makes the levels where wildshape isn't bat**** crazy feel that much more impotent). It kills the flavor of having a versatile shapeshifting class for me, in an otherwise very robust and powerful class.

I'd love to see this homebrew feat: If a druid shifts into a CR 0 form and shifts back before he enters combat (either he takes damage, is concentrating on a spell, or attempts to cast/attack), it doesn't consume a shift. A druid could possibly abuse Owl form with this if he's a metagamer and level 8+, but that doesn't sound to be the case with your guy.

Other than that, really encourage him to save his last shift if your party isn't going to be able to short rest. He's also going to want to focus on not dumping his humanoid stats, as he's going to be spending at least some time in it.

[hymer]

I just feel bad when he uses his form on just exploration and social stuff and I feel bad because now the player is unhappy, because combat is around the corner and he's spent his uses.

I think learning to manage your resources is part of the game. That goes for a lot of abilities with limited uses per rest. If you try to keep one wild shape use for potential combat, you should be okay.


I like all the crazy ideas people use the moon druid for, and if you could switch animal to animal, I mean you couldn't cast anyways and it could just save the ones use for combat.

I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here.

Anyway, if you want to give the player a leg up here, you could e.g. give him a magical item (druid only, of course), which allows him to use a CR ½ or less wild shape extra per rest. Shouldn't affect combat much, but should give a little more leeway in using wild shapes for other purposes.

[Doof]

it's okay as long as you get access to the latest from as soon as it becomes available. But Moon Druid still sucks as a pure melee character and you really don't scale well after level 6-ish. You'll do about half the damage per round of every other character in the game and your AC will be pitiful.

With that said, your hp will be really good and you'll be an unkillable beast once you hit level 20. It's a real struggle between levels 7-17 though. Gets better with beast spells at 18.

[djreynolds]

I don't mind telling the ranger, "hey did you fletch arrows, because there isn't a merchant out here."

How about it was just challenge 2, so that 4 challenge levels and you could do 4 challenge level 1 forms, or whatever in that math?

And yes, playing with a good mind on the present and future, resource management fixes stuff

[MaxWilson]

Possible fluff?
You can change your animal form to that of another but not back to "human" form. Say I became a brown bear, kicked it in combat, I could become a wolf and my hit points would just scale down minus what I had lost as a brown bear, but in proportion, i.e. I lost half in brown bear, if I become a wolf I just get half as a wolf and fought and went down to a quarter, if I go back to bear I get quarter as a bear. Too OP

I think I understand now what you're trying to say here. Fluff = "descriptive text", but you actually mean "possible house rule".

Honestly I wouldn't worry much about it. He'll learn to use wildshaping effectively, and even when his wildshapes are gone he's still a Moon Druid with all the great spells that implies. He can Polymorph himself into a T-Rex at 8th level! Even at 3rd level, he can cast that good old slow-motion Fireball called Spike Growth that inflicts 20+ points of damage on anyone trying to get out of it even before the Warlock starts knocking them right back in with Agonizing Repelling Blast.

[djreynolds]

I think I understand now what you're trying to say here. Fluff = "descriptive text", but you actually mean "possible house rule".

Honestly I wouldn't worry much about it. He'll learn to use wildshaping effectively, and even when his wildshapes are gone he's still a Moon Druid with all the great spells that implies. He can Polymorph himself into a T-Rex at 8th level! Even at 3rd level, he can cast that good old slow-motion Fireball called Spike Growth that inflicts 20+ points of damage on anyone trying to get out of it even before the Warlock starts knocking them right back in with Agonizing Repelling Blast.

Well he's almost dead, so perhaps his next character if can't revive him, he failed death saves twice, and we pick up Sunday.

You guys are right, he just needs to play better. He should've said, we need to rest and not just barrel on in.

[Malifice]

it's okay as long as you get access to the latest from as soon as it becomes available. But Moon Druid still sucks as a pure melee character and you really don't scale well after level 6-ish. You'll do about half the damage per round of every other character in the game and your AC will be pitiful.

With that said, your hp will be really good and you'll be an unkillable beast once you hit level 20. It's a real struggle between levels 7-17 though. Gets better with beast spells at 18.

Earth elemental (resistance and 150 odd HP) every short rest is pitiful? Thats basically 300 odd temp HP every short rest, online from 10th.

If damage is a problem, dip Paladin 2 for smites.

[DiscipleofBob]

Just want to point out that technically you can't turn into a T-Rex at 8th level unless they're explicitly included in the campaign or your setting has significantly advanced in the field of paleontology. A Moon Druid can only turn into animals they've seen before.

[Malifice]

Just want to point out that technically you can't turn into a T-Rex at 8th level unless they're explicitly included in the campaign or your setting has significantly advanced in the field of paleontology. A Moon Druid can only turn into animals they've seen before.

Druids galore down the local zoo.

[Mara]

Thou shall not give the moon druid free buffs.

If you removed spellcasting you could buff the shifting.

14 dex plus hide armor plus shield equals 16 AC. Rest quarterstaff on ground and shield hand. Cast shillelagh touch quarter staff, smash people with Wis stat. Or use produce flame. This is the fallback plan.

[Mara]

Just want to point out that technically you can't turn into a T-Rex at 8th level unless they're explicitly included in the campaign or your setting has significantly advanced in the field of paleontology. A Moon Druid can only turn into animals they've seen before.
Polymorph is a druid spell. A moon druid would have to be level 24 to wildshape into a t-rex.

[DiscipleofBob]

Polymorph is a druid spell. A moon druid would have to be level 32 to wildshape into a t-rex.

Missed the polymorph part of the OP.

That's what I get for trying to sound smart.

Nothing to see here, carry on...

[PoeticDwarf]

This spell. This freaking spell. It's amazing. Easily my favorite 2nd level spell. This spell is why my party loves me for playing a druid. A +10 to all stealth checks for an hour? Yes please. Our Rogue was rolling 42's (19 + 13) +10.

And pass without trace is also a big reason for the underrated level 5 ranger dip (for casters or rogues).
Extra attack, pass without trace and hunter's option!!! go for it

[DracoKnight]

Have them throw in 2 levels paladin, then you get +1AC style for when not in wild shape or if your animal form wears barding + couple of lvl 1 pally spells + holy bear smites! :)

My personal favorite multiclass for a druid is going 1 Barbarian, 2 Paladin, 17 Druid :D

[Saggo]

I think learning to manage your resources is part of the game. That goes for a lot of abilities with limited uses per rest. If you try to keep one wild shape use for potential combat, you should be okay.
The biggest issue I take is that Wild Shape uses never scale.


Honestly I wouldn't worry much about it. He'll learn to use wildshaping effectively, and even when his wildshapes are gone he's still a Moon Druid with all the great spells that implies. He can Polymorph himself into a T-Rex at 8th level! Even at 3rd level, he can cast that good old slow-motion Fireball called Spike Growth that inflicts 20+ points of damage on anyone trying to get out of it even before the Warlock starts knocking them right back in with Agonizing Repelling Blast.
Spike Growth is 20 average, so could do lower. Erupting Earth averages 19.5, but it's up front and scales with level. One is 2nd Level and the other 3rd, but Erupting Earth is still a good Fireball alternative.

[hymer]

The biggest issue I take is that Wild Shape uses never scale.

I can see where you're coming from. A system where you can shift to low-CR creatures more than big CR-creatures could be attractive, letting you choose how much wild shape juice you want to spend at a given time, but it doesn't sit well with the 5e design philosophy. At least wild shapes get longer durations as you level.

[Malifice]

The biggest issue I take is that Wild Shape uses never scale.

I house rule the following for druids to make them scale:

A Druid in Wild shape retains the mental ability scores (Cha, Wis and Int), proficiencies, class features, Hit Dice and hit points of his normal form. The Druid gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con), size, AC, proficiencies, attacks, movement modes, speed, senses and special abilities of the wild shaped form.

Druids gain a pool of temporary HP equal to (Druid level x 3) whenever they assume a Wild shape from their natural form. A druid reverts to his natural form on death, at zero HP, intentionally shifting back or on the duration expiring.

A Druid in Wild shape may calculate his AC by adding his proficiency bonus to the base forms AC.

A Druid may use either his own proficiency bonus or the beasts proficiency bonus (whichever is higher) for any melee or ranged attack, skill or save that either the Druid or the beast are proficient in. The Druid retains his own proficiencies (however some may be unusable in his new form) and gains the creatures proficiencies in its listed skills, saves and with its natural attacks.

If the new form has abilities that require a saving throw to resist, the Druid may substitute his own Spell attack DC for the DC of the special attack.

The 20th level Archdruid ability allows the druid to Plane shift (self only) between any elemental plane and the material plane once per short rest as an action. While in the elemental planes, the druid is immune to the harmful effects of the plane. In addition the druid gains fire, acid, cold, lightning and thunder resistance. This replaces this abilities normal benefit.

[hymer]

I house rule the following for druids

Just out of curiosity, how do you differentiate Land and Moon druid wild shaping?

[Malifice]

Just out of curiosity, how do you differentiate Land and Moon druid wild shaping?

I dont (beyond what the circles themselves do).

So Moon Druids get combat forms online much earlier, can self heal in wild shape form as a bonus action, and the animal attacks are magical, and can become elementals etc.

I find it provides a much more linear progression with the above rules in play.

[hymer]

I see. Thanks!

[SharkForce]

*sigh*

ok, let's stop and consider for a moment. the land druid has enough resources to last a full adventuring day and do very well, even with a wild shape option that is basically useless for combat purposes.

the only resources they get are a slightly larger spell list (which doesn't generally increase their resources directly, but can in some ways; it is much more efficient to cast free action on someone in a fight where hold person spam is a problem than to heal the damage of a person that got hit with hold person and then repeatedly crit-smacked, for example) and 1/2 druid level in spell levels over the course of the day usable during a short rest (capped at level 5 slots)

so if you use your wild shape forms for utility... well, you're still a druid, so what's the problem exactly? you've still got lots of combat power available to you.

at the end of the day, no matter what circle you choose, you still have decent proficiencies, full spellcasting, and one of the best spell lists in the game. if you're out of wild shape, use those instead.

[Saggo]

I can see where you're coming from. A system where you can shift to low-CR creatures more than big CR-creatures could be attractive, letting you choose how much wild shape juice you want to spend at a given time, but it doesn't sit well with the 5e design philosophy. At least wild shapes get longer durations as you level.

Some full casters have resources similar to that, notably Sorcerer. Most full casters at the very least increase their resource amount, and their resources don't lock out casting for 17 levels.


I house rule the following for druids to make them scale:
I was referring to the 2 Charges, mostly. A few small compounding issues discourage using different forms for RP, exploration, or DPR.


If the new form has abilities that require a saving throw to resist, the Druid may substitute his own Spell attack DC for the DC of the special attack.
That would definitely make Pounce/Trample shapes more useful, higher levels especially.


1/2 druid level in spell levels over the course of the day usable during a short rest (capped at level 5 slots)You're underplaying how useful that is.

[Malifice]

That would definitely make Pounce/Trample shapes more useful, higher levels especially.

Yeah, with scaling AC, HP, hit bonus and save DC's for attacks, special attacks, and skills the maths works out better (and druids are more likely to stick to the one form for longer).

Its worked a charm till 6th level so far.

[SharkForce]

You're underplaying how useful that is.

i didn't say it isn't useful. but if you're trying to tell me that somehow 1/2 druid level in spell slot levels is so unimaginably far ahead of 2/short rest enhanced wild shape that the moon druid cannot possibly hope to keep up in terms of resources available if they use even a single one of their wild shapes for utility, then i call shenanigans.

more spell slots is great. especially since the land druid doesn't really have combat wild shape options.

but so is the moon druid's improved wild shape. they likely are not exactly 100% equivalent, because it's really hard to accurately quantify their value. maybe some person with a PhD in mathematics and a lot of time, a few programmers, and a decent computer to model the difference could tell us which one is more.

but neither are so far ahead in resources that the other cannot hope to keep up (well, not until that silly capstone anyways. then it's obviously the moon druid).

[Spacehamster]

concerning moon druids, does any of the animal forms they can take have a better reach then 5ft? :)

[hymer]

concerning moon druids, does any of the animal forms they can take have a better reach then 5ft? :)

Yes. At least the giant octopus does. And it can grapple people it hits, keeping them out of reach if they're 5' melee. There may be others, but I'll have to check.

Edit: Giant constrictor too.
Edit: Giant crocodile tail and giant elk ram, as well. And plesiosaurus. And T-rex with Polymorph.
Edit: And the mammoth gore. There may be more, but I'll leave it at that.

[Saggo]

i didn't say it isn't useful. but if you're trying to tell me that somehow 1/2 druid level in spell slot levels is so unimaginably far ahead of 2/short rest enhanced wild shape that the moon druid cannot possibly hope to keep up in terms of resources available if they use even a single one of their wild shapes for utility, then i call shenanigans.

There's no need to exaggerate. But it is a simple endurance matter. 2 Druids, Land and Moon wild shape for utility (scouting, sneaking, traveling, etc). Both cast several spells during an encounter.

After a short rest, Land has all his Wild Shapes and Spell Slots back. Moon has Wild Shapes but still has spent slots. This gives incentive for Land Druids to cast more spells (combat and utility) and use Wild Shape for utility, and gives incentive for Moon to save Wild Shape for combat rather than utility.

This isn't Land is amazing and Moon is bad or Druid needs buffs. It's my critique of Wild Shape and that you underplayed how effective spell recovery is in comparison.


but so is the moon druid's improved wild shape. they likely are not exactly 100% equivalent, because it's really hard to accurately quantify their value. maybe some person with a PhD in mathematics and a lot of time, a few programmers, and a decent computer to model the difference could tell us which one is more.You can model an adventuring day, assuming number of short rests, encounters, and rounds per day. Kryx already has some numbers on a Moon Druid's DPR/day, so at an equal level figure how many nuking casts a Land Druid can make, given the short rests. Now you have a comparison of the possible DPR/Day of a Moon vs Land. Strictly speaking, Land has more utility than Moon.

[Mara]

If you want to add exploration wild shape, I suggest to make minor wildshape a spell you prepare. Say it last one hour with concentration. Have it start at CR 1/8 and then improve to 1/4, 1,...7 with spell level.

[SharkForce]

druids can fairly easily make it through a tough fight by spending 1-2 actual spell slots for the fighting portion. you don't need a dozen call lightning spells to make it through a battle. frequently just one is plenty. likewise for entangle, polymorph, moonbeam, spike growth, sunbeam, etc.

certainly, you *could* blow a ton of spell slots if you really wanted to. but with the druid spell list, there is frequently very little need to do so.