Cleric vs. Wizard

[Melcar]

In a duel, who would have an advantage?

The builds are human lich level 25. One most be divine and one must be arcane. More specifically full casterlevel.

The reason for my question is, that I want to create a "Keeper of Tomes" who shall be a librarian/archivist type of bad guy, who protects certain important tomes and treasures which the party needs to get hold of.

The build should fit the concept, but I'm open for ideas... Im asking the duel question because I feel that I would show what im looking for. Therefore dispite you guys knowing my objective with the dude, I would like to hear your duel thought as well.

All official, including Dragon Magazine, is a go! :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

Does it have to be a Cleric, or would any divine caster do? Because Archivist definitely has a leg up over Wizard. Anything a Wizard can do, an Archivist can also do, and the Archivist can do some things (on their own) the wizard can't.

And Archivist even seems to fit the flavor of the villian you're planning, being a class who's main power comes from using tricks to acquire non-standard scrolls in order to write them down (such as, they, cooperatively crafting with a Trapsmith, or looking for a scroll created by one with Southern Magician).

[eggynack]

Neither would win, assuming a good amount of optimization (here defined as basically nothing but proper spell selection). By the time casters get 9th's, they're already past the singularity, the point where incredibly powerful spells can be made to replace all of the other incredibly powerful spells until the whole of magic is at your command, and thus they all become roughly equivalent in power. Post-epic you get yet another singularity, the one of epic casting, where the little differentiation in casting prowess previously in existence is subsumed beneath the weight of a pile of spells, accessible to casters on a universal basis, which completely overshadow everything.

It's plausible that one could come up with some variety of advantage in the hands of one caster or another, but the difference is so minute as to be meaningless. You'd have to stipulate on the terms of the duel out the wazoo to have any hope of a clear victor, perhaps eliminating wide swaths of spells, but at that point you're really only choosing the winner personally by way of said stipulations, rather than giving an accurate power estimate. You should choose your class on the basis of preference, rather than power, because power is, in this case, far too arbitrary a metric.

[Rubik]

As everyone else has said, by the time you hit 9ths, differences in power are basically "which infinity is a bigger infinity?" Overall, the wizard spell list is more potent, but clerics can access the wizard list using Shapechange, the same as wizards can use Shapechange to access the cleric list. Druids have Shapechange, too, which can also access the druid list, so you've basically got three of the most powerful classes in the game which can access each other's tricks.

But without accessing anything but what they've got natively (that is, not accessing each other's lists), the typical power level is generally archivist > wizard > cleric > druid, and archivist is only there because it can access both wizard and cleric casting. But the differences in power are only a matter of degree, with player, build, spell payload, and tactics all determining the winner in any given confrontation.

Of course, with sufficient optimization, psion beats them all, and ardent beats psion, and those are only bested by overdeities and Pun Pun.

[Inevitability]

Assuming this is the 'no buffs, no allies, infinite featureless plane that can't be escaped' setup, the wizard would win.

That is because in the above situation, the person who first gets off a time stop probably wins, given that even without chaining or extending the time stop you're still getting a few rounds of buffing more. Or heck, just fire a SoD at your target; your chances of taking him/her/it down aren't too bad.

And yes, the wizard will go first. Between a hummingbird familiar, a higher dexterity, and possibly Nerveskitter, the only way for the cleric to win is ridiculous luck. Or just cast Celerity, which the cleric shouldn't have.

[Rebel7284]

As pointed out, tactics > class at this point.

With that said, Wizard would probably win due to native access to some of the most ridiculous spells in the game allowing them to spend optimization resources elsewhere.

[Segev]

Is a duel really the best way to gauge which will do the best job in the role you have in mind? It strikes me that this is a situation where you should instead figure out what you want them to do, and examine who has the better tricks to achieve it.

[atemu1234]

It's level 25. Epic spell loops, world breaks down, everyone dies. Draw.

[Psyren]

If the Cleric worships a god they have a huge advantage, because it means there are gods in the setting to keep mortal wizards in check. If it's an ideal/philosophy sort of deal then the Wizard will likely have the edge from their superior list.

[Sacrieur]

If the Cleric worships a god they have a huge advantage, because it means there are gods in the setting to keep mortal wizards in check. If it's an ideal/philosophy sort of deal then the Wizard will likely have the edge from their superior list.

Let's be fair, wizards are immortal by the time they're level 20.

[Psyren]

Let's be fair, wizards are immortal by the time they're level 20.

In the "no death of natural causes" sense perhaps, but it takes a lot more to be immortal in the "take on a god" sense. D&D gods in particular have some terribly hax abilities, particularly gods of magic.

[Flickerdart]

As with any question, this is a question of optimization.

Playtest-op: Initiative wins. Each guy has low enough HP that a single top-level blast (meteor swarm or mass heal) followed by a quickened blast takes down the enemy.

Low-op: Cleric wins. His low-hanging fruit buffs are better - spell resistance on self and true seeing to negate wizardly illusions goes a long way towards victory.

Mid-op: Wizard wins because shapechange and various teleporty antics.

High-op: Initiative wins. Both have access to Epic spellcasting and the will to abuse it by chain-gating solars to donate slots.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Assuming this is the 'no buffs, no allies, infinite featureless plane that can't be escaped' setup, the wizard would win.

That is because in the above situation, the person who first gets off a time stop probably wins, given that even without chaining or extending the time stop you're still getting a few rounds of buffing more. Or heck, just fire a SoD at your target; your chances of taking him/her/it down aren't too bad.

And yes, the wizard will go first. Between a hummingbird familiar, a higher dexterity, and possibly Nerveskitter, the only way for the cleric to win is ridiculous luck. Or just cast Celerity, which the cleric shouldn't have.

You say that as if other classes don't get initiative boosts.
Clerics get Sign and Divine Agility, and if they're halflings or changelings they also get access to Yondalla's Sense which eclipses everything the wizard gets all by itself.
There's also a ton of items, feats and class features that grant initiative, so you can't really make any assumptions just from the base class without any other information.

Assuming no buffs is silly at that level, but if we do you don't get to cast Celerity before your first regular action because you're flat footed (no Foresight).

In the end it's all variable depending on the specifics.
Maybe the cleric has Yondalla's Sense and gets his massive Wis to Initiative.
Maybe the wizard is actually a Swiftblade and gets his Int to Initiative.
Maybe one of them is invisible and gets the surprise on the other.
Maybe the wizard has Shapechange up and takes the form of a Dire Tortoise (which always get a surprise round).
Maybe they both have Foresight and the wizard casts Celerity, but the cleric has Divine Defiance and counterspells.
And that's just a few examples of the top of my head.

The outcome depends on so many factors that trying to predict it is futile unless you define the exact builds and spells prepared.

[Melcar]

It's level 25. Epic spell loops, world breaks down, everyone dies. Draw.

I am sorry... I dont even consider epic spells as part of the game most of the time, and I dont intent on using it. Sorry for that!

[eggynack]

I am sorry... I dont even consider epic spells as part of the game most of the time, and I dont intent on using it. Sorry for that!
Doesn't really change the result. Neither class can plausibly get any sort of edge in a broad sense.

[Emperor Tippy]

Technically, Wizard beats out Cleric.

In practice, both are pretty much equally capable in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing (assuming that they aren't built wrong).

The only class that I would say is flat out above a Wizard or Cleric (or Archivist or Druid) is a maximum optimization Psion because they can do anything and everything that any of those lesser classes can do; and do it better (along with having their own unique tricks).

[Quertus]

Just gotta ask - if they're both liches, why has no-one said that the cleric has the advantage, because he can turn the wizard?

[Psyren]

Just gotta ask - if they're both liches, why has no-one said that the cleric has the advantage, because he can turn the wizard?

Turning doesn't scale well and has a cap. No matter how powerful you make your check, the end result will be Cleric level + 4, and liches have turning resistance on top of that.

[atemu1234]

Technically, Wizard beats out Cleric.

In practice, both are pretty much equally capable in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing (assuming that they aren't built wrong).

The only class that I would say is flat out above a Wizard or Cleric (or Archivist or Druid) is a maximum optimization Psion because they can do anything and everything that any of those lesser classes can do; and do it better (along with having their own unique tricks).

Do you mean StP Erudite, or am I missing something?

[Rubik]

Do you mean StP Erudite, or am I missing something?Basic psions are better than StP erudites, if highly optimized, as they can gain all of an erudite's repertoire of spells and powers -- all of them -- via Psychic Chirurgery, and they don't have to bother with UPPD restrictions.

The only reason I say that highly optimized ardents are more powerful than psions is because they can do the exact same thing, but they have better ACFs, and they only need a level or two, the Magic Mantle, and the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat for full ML.

Imagine taking a single level of ardent at level 20, spending some time and effort on learning ALL THE POWERS and ALL THE SPELLS, and gaining full level 20 manifesting from it. Just make sure you have enough pp available to be getting on with.

[atemu1234]

Basic psions are better than StP erudites, if highly optimized, as they can gain all of an erudite's repertoire of spells and powers -- all of them -- via Psychic Chirurgery, and they don't have to bother with UPPD restrictions.

The only reason I say that highly optimized ardents are more powerful than psions is because they can do the exact same thing, but they have better ACFs, and they only need a level or two, the Magic Mantle, and the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat for full ML.

Imagine taking a single level of ardent at level 20, spending some time and effort on learning ALL THE POWERS, and gaining full level 20 manifesting from it. Just make sure you have enough pp available to be getting on with.

Well, I know what I'm building next.

[Rubik]

Well, I know what I'm building next.I like taking ten levels of ardent for the Dominant Ideal ACF. You could take one level of ardent and nab the ACF through some creative shapeshifting and illithid savant as well, but D.I. would come after the metamind's Font of Power (and Temporal Reiteration), in my book. Infinite pp to manifest every power and spell there is, all day long? Heck yeah. Of course, the dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell would be a must have, as well, as Supernatural Transformation does nothing for expensive components, and S.S. does.

[Necroticplague]

Just gotta ask - if they're both liches, why has no-one said that the cleric has the advantage, because he can turn the wizard?

Because there exists ways for Liches to not be Undead (Human Heritage, there's one feat I can't remember that makes you an Outsider), Turning isn't very hard to breat, liches already have turning resistance built-in. Assuming equal level, the Cleric would have to roll perfectly in order to effect the other lich. In addition, turning only works within 60 feet, far closer than the wizard would ever be. Destruction is an utter impossibility. Turning would be such an ineffective use of actions as to render it a non-factor (and it's likely a better assumption he's blown his TU uses on DMM, anyway).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Because there exists ways for Liches to not be Undead (Human Heritage, there's one feat I can't remember that makes you an Outsider), Turning isn't very hard to breat, liches already have turning resistance built-in. Assuming equal level, the Cleric would have to roll perfectly in order to effect the other lich. In addition, turning only works within 60 feet, far closer than the wizard would ever be. Destruction is an utter impossibility. Turning would be such an ineffective use of actions as to render it a non-factor (and it's likely a better assumption he's blown his TU uses on DMM, anyway).

That's not completely true imo. Boosting turning level is pretty cheap, and you only need to get enough to equal the wizards level + turn resistance and access to greater turning to destroy him with no save.
I agree on the range restriction, and the Human Heritage cheese is debatable (i don't agree that undead qualify, but that's a matter for another thread), but the rest is pretty easy.

The problem is that most cleric PrC's don't advance turning. If they don't you can still get an adequate turning level, but it's going to take a lot of gold and effort.
If they do you only need to get a Sacred shield & armor and a Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol to get your effective cleric level up to 30, vs. the wizards 29 (25 + 4 turn resistance). Throw in a Phylactery of Undead Turning, a Rod of Authority, Icon of Ravenloft or a Circlet of Persuasion if your Charisma is too low to guarantee at least a decent turning check. Then use greater turning and the wizard dies.

And it's not like investing in turning is wasted resources if you have a decent level to start with, even if there are no undead around.
As i said it's pretty cheap, and if you get a Khyber Shard Holy Symbol (FoE, 7000gp) you can use it to rebuke creatures with elemental subtypes and get a bunch of permanent minions, as the elemental domains.
Some of those creatures you can turn are pretty good, and 2 permanent minions for 7000gp is a bargain no matter how you look at it.

Let's take a look at my (incomplete) turn undead list i made for a cleric build a while back:
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG) +4
Rod of Authority (DotF) +4
Scepter of the Netherworld (LM) +3
Sacred Shield (BoED) +2
Sacred Armor (BoED) +2
Sacred Dastana (BoED) +2
Sacred Chahar-Ana (BoED) +2
Improved Turning feat (PHB) +1
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS) +1
Paragnostic Apostle See through the Veil (CC) +2
Icon of Ravenloft (ECR) +4
Ephod of Authority (MIC) +1
Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) +2-4
That's a 30-32 to effective turning level, which is enough to destroy equal level undead even without greater turning, or giving you powerful turning even if most of your classes don't increase it.
That may not be worth it on its own (though most of those things are pretty affordable for a high level cleric), but you also get 2 permanent minions with up to (15 +1/2 your level) HD for every Khyber Shard Symbol you buy.

If you consider that those turnable monsters include most dragons, various elementals with sorcerer casting and everything you can get Mantle of the Icy Soul/Fiery Spirit on?
I'd say that it's hardly ineffective, and unless your TU uses are perfectly divisible by 7 you can still use DMM: Persist and use the leftovers to turn. It's not like you'll need that many in a day.